Vauge Locations In Towns Are Hard To Find!!!!!!!

[+mjstef]

Tried to find This one today but there is to little to go on for the area that it is in. I don't live in or know my way around this town so that makes it harder yet!! It would be nice to see a parking area coordinate or street name on caches in towns as there are just to many variable you don't have out of town.

[+Miragee]

I completely understand your frustration and sympathize. From the map, I can see why it was so difficult.

 

 

I have the Mapsource maps on my Garmin eTrex Vista, but even with those, it is hard to find access in some areas around here because of canyons rimmed by private property.

 

Although some cache owners seem to think leaving off parking coordinates, so the cache seeker has to figure it out on their own, is part of the "game," I disagree. Especially with the price of gas these days, I think either parking coordinates, or a gentle nudge towards the correct access, is the better thing to do.

 

One cache owner here put in his description how you could drive around all the dead end streets and private driveways for four hours, or you might find the access right away.

 

I wasn't amused and although I didn't drive around for hours, it did take me a long time to find the access point to the cache which was in a suburban "alley."

 

I don't know what the answer is because some cache owners just will not provide parking or access coordinates. If you are planning on revisiting the area you could check out the satellite images to see if they give any clues to the terrain and possible access points.

[+Melrose Plant]

Although some cache owners seem to think leaving off parking coordinates, so the cache seeker has to figure it out on their own, is part of the "game," I disagree. Especially with the price of gas these days, I think either parking coordinates, or a gentle nudge towards the correct access, is the better thing to do.

 

One cache owner here put in his description how you could drive around all the dead end streets and private driveways for four hours, or you might find the access right away.

 

I wasn't amused and although I didn't drive around for hours, it did take me a long time to find the access point to the cache which was in a suburban "alley."

I very much dislike it when people do this and here's why: It gets us geocachers into trouble sooner or later, because some yahoo is going to get tired of finding the "right" way to get in and cut through somebody's yard. That's not good for any of us. People are suspicious of us as a group the way it is.

[+Miragee]

That is true. I ended up at the top of a private road and my GPSr said the cache was 158 feet away. The hint was vague and led me to almost think it could have been in the person's own yard.

 

I didn't continue forward and did find the "alley" but I was about to give up the game after that hour of frustration. In addition, the cache was really lousy, plus I picked up a nail in that alley that led to a flat tire a bit later on . . .

 

If only there was a way to know about these terrible experiences before setting out.

[MapheadMike]

The owner posted a note right after FTF with an answer. Another early finder gave his parking coords too.

 

I think the cache owner should include parking info in the main description for the reason BalboaGirl stated earlier, but it is his decision as it's his cache.

 

For those who think pulling the old logs up is too burdensome, well, you cache with the info you choose to look up and without the info you choose to ignore.

[+Melrose Plant]

In addition, the cache was really lousy, plus I picked up a nail in that alley that led to a flat tire a bit later on . . .

 

If only there was a way to know about these terrible experiences before setting out.

Bummer, man. I hope you're chuckling a little bit about it by now, though.

 

Those are the kind of stories that get told for a long time afterwards.

[+treasure_hunter]

Wow, that looks like trouble, I dont like it when cache pages do not tell you how to get to the cache if its confusing getting there.

[+LaPaglia]

Then there are those that really don't want any information at all. If you see a cache you want to try for and feel you need more information, try emailing the owner and see if they will provide it for you. Some will, some won't. Thats the way the game is played.

Edited June 19, 2005 by LaPaglia

[+Miragee]

The owner posted a note right after FTF with an answer. Another early finder gave his parking coords too.

 

I think the cache owner should include parking info in the main description for the reason BalboaGirl stated earlier, but it is his decision as it's his cache.

 

For those who think pulling the old logs up is too burdensome, well, you cache with the info you choose to look up and without the info you choose to ignore.

That is fine for more experienced cachers who realize such information might be available in past logs. In this case that information is on a whole other page of logs, plus it is encrypted. What's up with that? Its not like naming an access road is going to give away the actual cache location.

 

I just don't understand why a cache owner doesn't want to provide parking coordinates, or street access information.

[+LaPaglia]

The owner posted a note right after FTF with an answer. Another early finder gave his parking coords too.

 

I think the cache owner should include parking info in the main description for the reason BalboaGirl stated earlier, but it is his decision as it's his cache.

 

For those who think pulling the old logs up is too burdensome, well, you cache with the info you choose to look up and without the info you choose to ignore.

That is fine for more experienced cachers who realize such information might be available in past logs. In this case that information is on a whole other page of logs, plus it is encrypted. What's up with that? Its not like naming an access road is going to give away the actual cache location.

 

I just don't understand why a cache owner doesn't want to provide parking coordinates, or street access information.

Its a hunt.

In real life you hunt 2 ways. Head out on your own with a buddy or two, or hire a guide and go that route. In caching its much more of the grab a buddy and go out on your own. There is no requirement to list anything but the final coords on a traditional cache. Its just the way it is. Some people want you to be able to walk right up to it and some want you to work for it. Both ways are fine. Just don't do the caches that don't give you the information you want. you are not forced to do them.

[+Miragee]

True, but it is also supposed to be fun. If frustration is what results because the access is so difficult, how is that contributing to the "Fun Factor?"

 

What is the harm in providing a little more information, especially for a cache that involves a hike, as this one does?

[+The Waldo's]

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a while now. Now this is only a suggestion

but I think that when a cache is surrounded by private property and there is no obvious

access then posting parking coordinates is in good taste and will keep the out of

towners out of trouble.

 

I don't think it should be a rule but I have heard a bullet hit a tree right next to me fired

from a landowner who was gone to protect his poison ivy to the death.

I was not caching at the time but still scared the heck out of me enough to think twice

the next time.

[+Miragee]

In addition, the cache was really lousy, plus I picked up a nail in that alley that led to a flat tire a bit later on . . .

 

If only there was a way to know about these terrible experiences before setting out.

Bummer, man. I hope you're chuckling a little bit about it by now, though.

 

Those are the kind of stories that get told for a long time afterwards.

Not chuckling about it yet. Still mad about the cache description, somewhat edited to protect the guilty:

This is a suburban cache and it is VERY IMPORTANT for you to know that you can get to the cache without setting foot on anyone's private property. In fact, that's the whole challenge - finding a way to the cache that does not involve climbing fences, slogging through someone's backyard or getting your butt bit by an overly protective family pet. Trust me - there is a way. You may find it immediately, or you may be driving around XXXXXXX for hours in the maze of dead end streets trying to follow your GPS.

 

By the way - if you find yourself in a Mobile Home Park, you're close but You Can't Get There From Here - you'll have to find another route to the cache.

I noticed that the next finders did report that the cache was full of junk. My log was rather pleasant considering what I went through . . .

 

If I ever read another description like that I will know to simply pass up that cache.

[+halley-peabody]

Amen to that!!! Out in the suburbs or rural areas this is seldom a problem, but in heavily urbanized areas it can be a nightmare. I did one cache that was in a tiny park, surrounded on nearly all sides by heavily industrialized -- private property -- areas. We only found the access point to the cache by accident, later on, after we had given up. In a situation like that I think it is wrong of the owner not to give better information. Not only do you run the risk of having people trespass on private property, but also of having them look suspicious and possibly get the police called.

[+Mudfrog]

Then there are those that really don't want any information at all. If you see a cache you want to try for and feel you need more information, try emailing the owner and see if they will provide it for you. Some will, some won't. Thats the way the game is played.

We fall into this category! This is geocaching and part of the of this game may require you to actually make plans, use your noggin, and/or improvise when you get to a cache location. It seems strange that some of you want all the answers!

 

As far as the picture of the map above,, what's the problem?

[+Munin]

Sometimes - certainly not always, not necessarily even often, but sometimes - I've found that a bit of web-searching ahead of time can yield useful information that makes a cache go smoother. I'll use the cache mjstef mentioned as an example, simply because it looks like this probably is a case where mousing around can help. I've had some luck with this, maybe it'll come in handy for someone else.

 

For a cache like this, I'd normally start with a check of TopoZone, in case it shows a handy trail passing near the cache. No luck on this cache though - there's an unimproved road of some sort, but it doesn't pass terribly close to the cache. I'll keep it in mind in case nothinge better shows up - if it's a fire road for a park then it might indicate an entrance into the area, and there might be side trails leading to the cache that aren't shown on the topo. Still, not feeling warm'n'fuzzy there. Okay, moving along...

 

Let's try an aerial view and zoom in on the cache area using the TerraServer link - ends up looking like this. (Warning for dialup or low-res people - this is the large sized image!) A bit more promising - there's signs of multiple trails crossing the area. A couple from the neighborhoods to the north, and several branching out from the water towers to the east. If nothing else, I might be able to check out the places where these trails hit the paved roads and see if there's a right-of-way. But clearly a residential area, so parking might still be an issue. (Okay, we know parking is an issue - that's sort of the point of this whole thread. ) Let's keep that in the back pocket, and try mousing around a bit more.

 

Checking the Geocaching map and/or the MS MapPoint links can sometimes yield extra information if you zoom in and pan around a little. (Different map sites seem to bring up parks at different zoom levels.) Nothing much showing on MapPoint, but as I'm zooming in on the Geocaching map I notice there's a 'Mount Ascension Park' ESE of the cache. Hmmmm...

 

Sometimes towns or states have trail maps available - occasionally very nice ones, so my next stop was to do a quick Google for 'mount ascension park'. And the first hit is a City of Helena parks website. Could be promising!

 

And there's a 'Parks Map' link to a PDF. Hoorah! Oh, wait - that turns out to just be a map showing the locations of the parks, not any detailed trail maps. Harumph.

 

Ah, but wait - there's a Trails link on that page as well. Let's try that. That brings me to a page with a link to a Trails Helena Area 2004 pdf file. I download that and take a look.

 

SCORE!!! It's a map that shows trails, trailheads, and trailheads with parking, and it covers the area where the cache is located. Even has lat/lon marked around the border, which is a nice touch. (However, note that it's DDmmss format, not DDmm.mmm!) If I were driving to that area, I might first take a look at S Beattie St, which seems like the closest entrance to the cache with parking. S Davis St is a little further off, maybe about a mile as the crow flies, but might make a decent fallback entrance if the first parking area is full. Plus I now have the locations of several other trailheads, so if all else fails I might be able to find on-street parking a bit further away and walk over to one of the other entrances. It's not something I'd try if I didn't know how to get to any of the trails, but fortunately I do know now. As a bonus, I also have what certainly looks like a rather decent trail map, and between the GC/TopoZone/MapPoint maps I checked out earlier, I can take a pretty decent guess as to which trails I think I'd follow to get to the cache area.

 

Anyways, that's my "armchair quarterback" walk-through about researching a cache that's off in a part of the country that I'm totally unfamiliar with and likely will never see. Take it with an appropriately-sized grain of salt.

[+Mopar]

Back in the day, geocaches just had a set of coords.

No parking directions.

No difficulty/terrain ratings.

No cache description.

No hints.

People still found found caches, and had fun doing it.

Of course, back then, all caches were at least a 10 mile hike, up hill, both ways, and could only be done on the coldest/hottest day of the year. Most people did them barefoot, without any food or water, in the dark.

There also were no urban/suburban caches.

 

Seriously, geocaching is not just about a logbook and trinkets; it's also about the journey. For some people, and some caches; that journey includes using your GPS and maps to find the proper way to a cache. If every cache had parking coords, trailhead coords, and exact directions to locate the cache when you get to the area, it wouldn't be fun, and it wouldn't even be geocaching; it would be letterboxing.

[+BalkanSabranje]

I completely understand your frustration and sympathize. From the map, I can see why it was so difficult.

 

 

This is so coool! You can even see streets on your gc.com maps!

 

There's nothing but grey here - try to find a cache with the help of this "map" (pic shows the downtown area of the 3rd biggest town in our country).

That's why we tend to use GPSrs...

 

BalkanSabranje

[+mjstef]

I went through all the maps i could find. I was on 2 different sides of the cache but never did find an access point or a place to park. I have only found a dozen caches, All of them being in the mountains and never had a problem finding any of them. One was a confluence cache with a 5X5 star rating and we found it!! As far as the ones in town go i don't think it's a good idea to drive around through neighborhoods like i did for hours to find an access and i 'm lucky no one called the cops! I'm gonna find someone locally that has found this one and go with them if there willing but i think this is the last one in town i'll be looking for without more details. There are just too many in the mountains around here to worry about an in town cache. I was only in Helena because my wife had to work till noon and the kids and i were meeting her for lunch.

[+Sagefox]

I don't live in or know my way around this town so that makes it harder yet!! It would be nice to see a parking area coordinate or street name on caches in towns as there are just to many variable you don't have out of town.

I understand your concerns. Almost all of our caching is done away from our home area in parts of towns we are unfamiliar with. Many times we have cussed out the cache owner while circling like vultures trying to find the prey we can smell. The owners are often unresponsive or choose not to edit their cache pages to be more helpful. Often these owners have few hides and finds and may not be into the sport as much as we might be.

 

This condition is just a part of the mix. Some caches just don't have enough information or we don't see the right path or alleyway into the cache area. While the difficulty rating may be understated on the cache page the cache can actually be a real challenge to find.

 

But the percentage with this problem is relatively low. The way I usually handle this it to cuss it out appropriately in the field, mentally adjust the difficulty rating to a higher number, and then decide whether on that day or in the future I want to hunt it for the challenge or write it off and forget about it.

 

Not that big of a deal really. Where would we be if all caches were easy to find?

[+welch]

If you're having lots of problems (or know you'll be visiting in advance) try emailing the owner and explain you like some help finding a good parking area.

You could also check the previous logs to see where otheres have parked (or where not to in some cases) .

a log in Nov. says:

"11:30AM - Great views - drove around quite a bit looking for the best place to tackle the hill! Best parking cords might help - I parked at N46*34.640 W112*01.067 on Diehl Drive but I am not sure that was the best place - it was just over .2 miles from the cache as the crow flies - the hike was over double that - sort of following the trails."

not sure if they mean people shouldn't park there, of it theres an closer one?

[+mjstef]

I saw that area on Deihl drive. It was an empty lot between some houses so i consider that private property. I don't want to tread on someone else's land just as i would not want someone else on my land.

[+hukilaulau]

Munin... I thought that was a great example of what a little detective work can produce. It reminds me that a lot of my own frustration is just due to laziness and lack of preparation. I am inspired to do more of what you so aptly demonstrated.

 

On the other hand... When I came up here to the Boston area for a temporary job, I tried some of the urban caches in the area. I hated dealing with the traffic to get to a location and felt very uncomfortable wandering near private property looking for access to a cache. So I simply decided not to look for those any more.

Tomorrow is a day off from work and I'm going up to Maine to visit the L.L. Bean store and hit some caches in the area. I may only find one or two caches, but I will spend a day in the woods where I feel relaxed and comfortable. I will feel no animosity towards players who have hidden evil urban caches because I won't know anything about them! One thing I love about this game is the variety provided! I feel no compulsion to find a cache just because it's "in my radius."

[+JEMiller]

It's friggin geocaching, you have a GPSr. If it to hard, find another hobby.

[+The Jester]

It's friggin geocaching, you have a GPSr. If it to hard, find another hobby.

Such a helpful comment.

[+Munin]

I thought that was a great example of what a little detective work can produce.

Cheers, hukilaula! Mousing around definitely doesn't always turn up anything useful, but sometimes (like in this case) it'll lead to some great resources. In my neck of the woods (Massachusetts), there's some quite decent trail maps for a number of state parks available online. Web searching for a cache in the town next door led me to a site that has a nice collection of trail maps for all its conservation areas, including parking areas that'd be awfully hard to spot if I were just randomly driving randomly - that site's come in handy for three caches so far. Even though TopoZone didn't help much in the example I ran through above, it's been quite sufficient for several other caches. The aerial flyover approach for spotting unlisted trails gave me an approach for one of the caches that's on my "To Do" list. (Actually, I tend to use Google's satellite maps more than TerraServer, but it's the same general idea.)

 

For a different example of what a little mousing around can turn up, there's this little web-wander that I did one night related to a TB that'd taken an odd detour along its journey. (I sometimes wonder how on earth I survived in the pre-Internet days. )

[Trinity's Crew]

I have voiced frustration over a lack of parking coordinates on confusing or ambiguous cache placements in the past. I received varying opinions, just as you have.

I understand that some cache owners purposely omit the access information as "part of the challenge". That's perfectly fine.

I also maintain that it simply doesn't occur to many other owners that the parking area isn't obvious to everyone.

So periodically discussing the issue helps keep the latter problem from occuring as often.

 

On the other hand, I have a cache (my only cache, actually) and I gave parking instructions. Following them would send you on a .7 mile hike one way. But many clever cachers have found an access road much closer to the cache. (About .2) That's cool, but I wish they would stop mentioning it in the logs!

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited June 20, 2005 by Trinity's Crew

[+Lean Wolf]

This is so coool! You can even see streets on your gc.com maps!  

Way too cool to be true. Here is part of Stockholm City. Sigh.

 

[+Sagefox]

On the other hand, I have a cache (my only cache, actually) and I gave parking instructions. Following them would send you on a .7 mile hike one way. But many clever cachers have found an access road much closer to the cache. (About .2) That's cool, but I wish they would stop mentioning it in the logs!

It is just part of the game. It is human nature to find a clever way to get to a cache and then let others know about it.

[vagabond]

Munin put out some good points, just do a lttle research if your not familiar with the area.

USAPhotomaps usually does a good job for me, its a free down load.

LOL and Mopar I remember a few of those early caches, they were great fun to do.

I placed one of these caches it's to easy gc9352 just for one cacher he never followed instructions. There were 2 entries to the cache one was a 1 1/2 and a flat walk, the other end you had to go down a short hill and fight through a bamboo forest then walk about a 1/4 mile, just a short hike really.

And I mentioned on the cache page why I wasn't giving parking coords, some people loved the cache, others were p-ssed off because they had to drive around and waste gas.

All it took was a little research to make it an easy 1 1/2

[+Miragee]

Sometimes - certainly not always, not necessarily even often, but sometimes - I've found that a bit of web-searching ahead of time can yield useful information that makes a cache go smoother.  I'll use the cache mjstef mentioned as an example, simply because it looks like this probably is a case where mousing around can help.  I've had some luck with this, maybe it'll come in handy for someone else.

 

For a cache like this, I'd normally start with a check of TopoZone, in case it shows a handy trail passing near the cache.  No luck on this cache though - there's an unimproved road of some sort, but it doesn't pass terribly close to the cache.  I'll keep it in mind in case nothinge better shows up - if it's a fire road for a park then it might indicate an entrance into the area, and there might be side trails leading to the cache that aren't shown on the topo.  Still, not feeling warm'n'fuzzy there.  Okay, moving along...

 

Let's try an aerial view and zoom in on the cache area using the TerraServer link - ends up looking like this.  (Warning for dialup or low-res people - this is the large sized image!)  A bit more promising - there's signs of multiple trails crossing the area.  A couple from the neighborhoods to the north, and several branching out from the water towers to the east.  If nothing else, I might be able to check out the places where these trails hit the paved roads and see if there's a right-of-way.  But clearly a residential area, so parking might still be an issue.  (Okay, we know parking is an issue - that's sort of the point of this whole thread. )  Let's keep that in the back pocket, and try mousing around a bit more.

 

Checking the Geocaching map and/or the MS MapPoint links can sometimes yield extra information if you zoom in and pan around a little.  (Different map sites seem to bring up parks at different zoom levels.)  Nothing much showing on MapPoint, but as I'm zooming in on the Geocaching map I notice there's a 'Mount Ascension Park' ESE of the cache.  Hmmmm...

 

Sometimes towns or states have trail maps available - occasionally very nice ones, so my next stop was to do a quick Google for 'mount ascension park'.  And the first hit is a City of Helena parks website.  Could be promising! 

 

And there's a 'Parks Map' link to a PDF.  Hoorah!  Oh, wait - that turns out to just be a map showing the locations of the parks, not any detailed trail maps.  Harumph.

 

Ah, but wait - there's a Trails link on that page as well.  Let's try that.  That brings me to a page with a link to a Trails Helena Area 2004 pdf file.  I download that and take a look.

 

SCORE!!!    It's a map that shows trails, trailheads, and trailheads with parking, and it covers the area where the cache is located.  Even has lat/lon marked around the border, which is a nice touch.  (However, note that it's DDmmss format, not DDmm.mmm!)  If I were driving to that area, I might first take a look at S Beattie St, which seems like the closest entrance to the cache with parking.  S Davis St is a little further off, maybe about a mile as the crow flies, but might make a decent fallback entrance if the first parking area is full.  Plus I now have the locations of several other trailheads, so if all else fails I might be able to find on-street parking a bit further away and walk over to one of the other entrances.  It's not something I'd try if I didn't know how to get to any of the trails, but fortunately I do know now.  As a bonus, I also have what certainly looks like a rather decent trail map, and between the GC/TopoZone/MapPoint maps I checked out earlier, I can take a pretty decent guess as to which trails I think I'd follow to get to the cache area.

 

Anyways, that's my "armchair quarterback" walk-through about researching a cache that's off in a part of the country that I'm totally unfamiliar with and likely will never see.  Take it with an appropriately-sized grain of salt. 

Lots of good suggestions here, however, more and more people are caching "paperless" without access to all that information when you are unexpectedly in a different area.

 

So, you see that you have the cache description and a few past logs in Cachemate, and you have the waypoint in your GPSr, but you don't have enough information to start out on a search for the actual cache.

 

Personally, I would much rather provide parking coordinates, or nearby access interections, enabling someone try to find a cache of mine rather having them pass it up because I didn't provide enough information in the description.

[+BalkanSabranje]

Way too cool to be true. Here is part of Stockholm City. Sigh. 

Yeah, I know (greets to the far north, by the way ).

 

Try this thread for complaining, please. Hope it helps.

 

BS/2

[+VegasCacheHounds]

In addition, the cache was really lousy, plus I picked up a nail in that alley that led to a flat tire a bit later on . . .

 

If only there was a way to know about these terrible experiences before setting out.

Bummer, man. I hope you're chuckling a little bit about it by now, though.

 

Those are the kind of stories that get told for a long time afterwards.

Not chuckling about it yet. Still mad about the cache description, somewhat edited to protect the guilty:

This is a suburban cache and it is VERY IMPORTANT for you to know that you can get to the cache without setting foot on anyone's private property. In fact, that's the whole challenge - finding a way to the cache that does not involve climbing fences, slogging through someone's backyard or getting your butt bit by an overly protective family pet. Trust me - there is a way. You may find it immediately, or you may be driving around XXXXXXX for hours in the maze of dead end streets trying to follow your GPS.

 

By the way - if you find yourself in a Mobile Home Park, you're close but You Can't Get There From Here - you'll have to find another route to the cache.

I noticed that the next finders did report that the cache was full of junk. My log was rather pleasant considering what I went through . . .

 

If I ever read another description like that I will know to simply pass up that cache.

Well, it sounds like from the description given that you should have known exactly what to expect, and if that is not your cup of tea, then remember that you don't have to find every cache.

 

Personally, if that cache was near me, I'd think it sounds like a blast. It sounds like an interesting puzzle, and lots of recon would be in order.

[+Miragee]

. . .

 

If I ever read another description like that I will know to simply pass up that cache.

Well, it sounds like from the description given that you should have known exactly what to expect, and if that is not your cup of tea, then remember that you don't have to find every cache.

 

Personally, if that cache was near me, I'd think it sounds like a blast. It sounds like an interesting puzzle, and lots of recon would be in order.

If you've never, ever been there before, how can you know "exactly what to expect."?

 

Not being familiar with that part of town, I had no idea what I was in for until I got to the neighborhood with extremely steep dead end roads and private drives that were indistiguishable from one another. Even satellite photos wouldn't help you know which of those would or wouldn't help you access the cache location.

 

Since I usually do more rural caches, I definitely learned my lesson. NOW I know if I ever read a description like that again I will ignore the cache . . .