+Black Dog Trackers Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 What is the oldest disk that says that there's a $250 fine for disturbing it? I'm assuming around 1900. According to this site, the conversion factor to translate 2005-estimate dollars to 1900 dollars is 0.046 so $250 / 0.046 = $5,435. It would seem that the $250 amount is way past due for an update! Quote Link to comment
StripeMark Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I'm wondering if anyone has actually been brought up on charges for this and has been fined or imprisoned? Quote Link to comment
+Spoo Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 StripeMark: Good question. I have often wondered if anyone was ever prosecuted for the wonton destruction of a mark. We have all "found" the missing marks from private, commercial or local government construction as well as the pulled up and thrown, or out right missing Witness Posts, so we know this sort of thing happens. I suspect that after the information was obtained as to elevation and/or Lat-Long the Government has never really cared. BDT: I can verify that a 1922 CGS mark had the $250 warning. I can also verify that a USGS mark from 1912, documented by ddnutzy, has the warning. Quote Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 BDT, here is a link to a 1909 disk with the warning. FS0601 Quote Link to comment
CallawayMT Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Here is a 1902: West Base - Hill County, Montana West Base was first leveled to, and then subsequently turned into a Baseline monument. I know that the USGS level runs on these pipe caps were done in the 1880's and 1890's, based on the spirit leveling books. They generally did not stamp years on the leveling runs though. CallawayMT Quote Link to comment
Bill93 Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I couldn't find it in a quick search, but last year someone posted on here about a case where a contractor took out a mark that was considered pretty important (both horizontal and vertical very good class). It was reported that they reset the mark and charged him some fee like $10,000 (?) which would be a comparable order of magnitude to the original $250 with inflation. Quote Link to comment
+Zhanna Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Just to add one more interesting (old!) mark, here's an 1899 disk with the warning: 1139 H USGS ~Zhanna http://surveymarks.planetzhanna.com/ Quote Link to comment
+BuckBrooke Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Maybe this should be added into a Quirky Extremes section of the Holoscene site. Oldest benchmark w/ a $250 fee There might be other quirky things here. Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I tried at one time to find the oldest disks, but the problem is that a lot of disks were reset on or near some really old stations, and so the datasheet looks like it is for an old disk, but the disk itself is nowhere nearly as old as the station. Here are the 146 disks which bear stampings that contain dates prior to 1900. Even some of these are probably resets and could have been stamped with the date of the original station rather than the date of the disk. We need some volunteers to go check them out! Sorted by Date Sorted by PID ------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- CK0880 1852 stamped BEAUFORT CHURCH NO 2 1852 AB0004 1885 stamped BROWNSVILLE NO 1 1885 LX1104 1853 stamped DENNINGS LDG NO 1 1853 AB0005 1885 stamped BROWNSVILLE NO 2 1885 LX1102 1853 stamped DENNINGS LDG NO 2 1853 CK0880 1852 stamped BEAUFORT CHURCH NO 2 1852 HW0674 1871 stamped CLARK MT 1871-1932 CL0655 1889 stamped ELEV 311.367 312 MC MOREHED 1889 JC0172 1872 stamped AMERICAN BOTTOM LOWER BASE 1872 CL0694 1898 stamped 381.072 381 MC MOREHEAD 1898 OD1369 1872 stamped WILCOX 1872 CL0877 1898 stamped 259.081 259 MC MOREHED 1898 FV1130 1873 stamped CHINA GULCH 1873 CP1381 1896 stamped A 1896 JC1727 1873 stamped DIECKHAUS 1873 DC1219 1887 stamped BALL NO 1 1887 JC1434 1874 stamped BERGER 1874 DC1221 1887 stamped BALL NO 2 1887 QL0218 1874 stamped FORD RIVER 1874 DF0630 1898 stamped 727 726.652 MOREHED 1898 JC0661 1874 stamped GASCONADE 1874 DF9346 1895 stamped SUGAR LOAF 1895 JC1451 1874 stamped PETERS 1874 DG0827 1898 stamped EL 765.550 FT D 23 MOREHED 1898 GU3792 1875 stamped KASLER PT 1875-1932 DG0836 1898 stamped G 23 836.612 MOREHED 1898 OF0904 1875 stamped WALWORTH 1875 DH2452 1886 stamped LAUREL 1886 OF0906 1875 stamped WALWORTH 1875 DY1094 1899 stamped OLD NO 2 1899 DY2150 1876 stamped BRUSH 1876 DY1096 1899 stamped OLD NO 1 1899 JC1495 1878 stamped GEYER 1878 DY2150 1876 stamped BRUSH 1876 JD2619 1879 stamped CHRISTIAN 1879 EA0542 1896 stamped NEHL 1896 12.215 JK1153 1879 stamped CORRAL BLUFFS 1879 ED0700 1892 stamped 1892.516 1892 ATLANTA JD0257 1880 stamped HUNTER 1880 EW1863 1890 stamped WILSON PEAK NO 3 1890 JD0295 1880 stamped VERSAILLES NORTH BASE 1880 EW1865 1890 stamped WILSON NO 4 PEAK 1890 JE0142 1883 stamped HUTTON 1883 FA1351 1899 stamped NCGS - USGS 1899 AB0004 1885 stamped BROWNSVILLE NO 1 1885 FA1352 1899 stamped NCGS - USGS 1899 AB0005 1885 stamped BROWNSVILLE NO 2 1885 FC0379 1899 stamped 789 NASHVILLE 1899 DH2452 1886 stamped LAUREL 1886 FD0161 1899 stamped 971 NASHVILLE 1899 DC1219 1887 stamped BALL NO 1 1887 FD0172 1899 stamped 694 NASHVILLE 1899 DC1221 1887 stamped BALL NO 2 1887 FD0178 1899 stamped 895 NASHVILLE 1899 JE1579 1887 stamped KANWAKA 1887 FD0196 1899 stamped 916 NASHVILLE 1899 LY1109 1889 stamped D L W 1889 FD0209 1899 stamped 1003 NASHVILLE 1899 CL0655 1889 stamped ELEV 311.367 312 MC MOREHED 1889 FD0296 1899 stamped 738 NASHVILLE 1899 JZ3336 1890 stamped GLASGOW 1890 FD0297 1899 stamped 738 NASHVILLE 1899 KF0898 1890 stamped THOMPSON 1890 FD0470 1899 stamped 595 NASHVILLE 1899 EW1865 1890 stamped WILSON NO 4 PEAK 1890 FD0478 1899 stamped 690 NASHVILLE 1899 EW1863 1890 stamped WILSON PEAK NO 3 1890 FD0486 1899 stamped 648 NASHVILLE 1899 JH0130 1891 stamped GOPHER 1891 FD0490 1899 stamped 697 NASHVILLE 1899 JH0131 1891 stamped GOPHER 1891 FD0702 1899 stamped 600 NASHVILLE 1899 ED0700 1892 stamped 1892.516 1892 ATLANTA FD0708 1899 stamped 683 NASHVILLE 1899 JG0848 1892 stamped HAYS 1892 FV1130 1873 stamped CHINA GULCH 1873 JG0592 1893 stamped BIG CREEK 1893 GU3792 1875 stamped KASLER PT 1875-1932 JG0538 1893 stamped SKAGGS 1893 HW0674 1871 stamped CLARK MT 1871-1932 MY3659 1893 stamped SPINDLE HILL 1893-1938 JC0172 1872 stamped AMERICAN BOTTOM LOWER BASE 1872 RC0860 1894 stamped HIGH WATER MARK JUNE 6 1894 106.171 JC0661 1874 stamped GASCONADE 1874 DF9346 1895 stamped SUGAR LOAF 1895 JC1434 1874 stamped BERGER 1874 CP1381 1896 stamped A 1896 JC1451 1874 stamped PETERS 1874 EA0542 1896 stamped NEHL 1896 12.215 JC1495 1878 stamped GEYER 1878 JW0688 1897 stamped 2467 1897 JC1727 1873 stamped DIECKHAUS 1873 NB1082 1898 stamped 1006 D 1898 JD0257 1880 stamped HUNTER 1880 RC1569 1898 stamped 102.966 L 24 1898 JD0295 1880 stamped VERSAILLES NORTH BASE 1880 NA1308 1898 stamped 1047 ALBANY 1898 JD2619 1879 stamped CHRISTIAN 1879 NA1464 1898 stamped 1051 ALBANY 1898 JE0142 1883 stamped HUTTON 1883 NA1324 1898 stamped 1232 ALBANY 1898 JE1579 1887 stamped KANWAKA 1887 NA0756 1898 stamped 1272 ALBANY 1898 JF1625 1899 stamped LODER 1899 NA1456 1898 stamped 1384 ALBANY 1898 JG0538 1893 stamped SKAGGS 1893 NA1457 1898 stamped 1384 ALBANY 1898 RESET JG0592 1893 stamped BIG CREEK 1893 NC0198 1898 stamped 1393 1898 D JG0848 1892 stamped HAYS 1892 NB1207 1898 stamped 1573 D 1898 JH0130 1891 stamped GOPHER 1891 NC0176 1898 stamped 1593 D 1898 JH0131 1891 stamped GOPHER 1891 NB1223 1898 stamped 1610 D 1898 JK1153 1879 stamped CORRAL BLUFFS 1879 NB1215 1898 stamped 1675 D 1898 JW0688 1897 stamped 2467 1897 CL0877 1898 stamped 259.081 259 MC MOREHED 1898 JW0911 1899 stamped PITTSBURG 999 1899 CL0694 1898 stamped 381.072 381 MC MOREHEAD 1898 JX0079 1899 stamped 859 PITTSBURG 1899 DF0630 1898 stamped 727 726.652 MOREHED 1898 JX0175 1899 stamped 885 PITTSBURG 1899 NB0281 1898 stamped 818 ALBANY 1898 JY0700 1899 stamped COLUMBUS 1899 778 NB0377 1898 stamped 840 ALBANY 1898 JZ3336 1890 stamped GLASGOW 1890 NA1433 1898 stamped 867 ALBANY 1898 KF0898 1890 stamped THOMPSON 1890 NA0003 1898 stamped 930 ALBANY 1898 KX1273 1899 stamped 868 PITTSBURGH 1899 NB1108 1898 stamped 935 D 1898 KX1504 1899 stamped 852 PITTSBURG 1899 NA1285 1898 stamped 978 ALBANY 1898 KX1506 1899 stamped 844 PITTSBURGH 1899 RC1542 1898 stamped 99.606 E 24 1898 LH0384 1898 stamped BLUE HILL 1898 LH0384 1898 stamped BLUE HILL 1898 LX1102 1853 stamped DENNINGS LDG NO 2 1853 DG0827 1898 stamped EL 765.550 FT D 23 MOREHED 1898 LX1104 1853 stamped DENNINGS LDG NO 1 1853 DG0836 1898 stamped G 23 836.612 MOREHED 1898 LY1109 1889 stamped D L W 1889 SC0412 1898 stamped O 31-21 1898 LZ0500 1899 stamped 1139 H 1899 FD0209 1899 stamped 1003 NASHVILLE 1899 LZ0511 1899 stamped 1246 H 1899 MA1205 1899 stamped 1038 PITTSBURG 1899 LZ0517 1899 stamped 966 H 1899 NB1125 1899 stamped 1050 OSWEGO 1899 NEW YORK LZ0716 1899 stamped 1585 HARRISBURG 1899 MB0062 1899 stamped 1062 PITTSBURG 1899 LZ0888 1899 stamped 528 HARRISBURG 1899 LZ0500 1899 stamped 1139 H 1899 LZ0939 1899 stamped 620 HARRISBURG 1899 MA0855 1899 stamped 1193 DUNKIRK 1899 LZ1356 1899 stamped 1330 HARRISBURG 1899 LZ0511 1899 stamped 1246 H 1899 MA0816 1899 stamped PENNSYLVANIA 1086 DUNKIRK 1899 LZ1356 1899 stamped 1330 HARRISBURG 1899 MA0855 1899 stamped 1193 DUNKIRK 1899 RB0433 1899 stamped 1528.242 A 1899 MA1205 1899 stamped 1038 PITTSBURG 1899 LZ0716 1899 stamped 1585 HARRISBURG 1899 MA1209 1899 stamped 989 PITTSBURG 1899 QB0678 1899 stamped 2113.283 L 310 1899 MA1233 1899 stamped 919 1899 MZ0947 1899 stamped 269 ALBANY 1899 MA1512 1899 stamped PITTSBURG 1214 1899 RA0776 1899 stamped 2788.610 A M 305 1899 MB0062 1899 stamped 1062 PITTSBURG 1899 OD0787 1899 stamped 314 ALBANY 1899 MC0279 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 7 USC AND G 1899 NB0572 1899 stamped 481 OSWEGO 1899 MC0282 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 8 USG AND G 1899 LZ0888 1899 stamped 528 HARRISBURG 1899 MC0287 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 9 USC AND G 1899 FD0470 1899 stamped 595 NASHVILLE 1899 MC0291 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 11 USC AND G 1899 OD0748 1899 stamped 6 1899 ALBANY MC0303 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 13 USC AND G 1899 FD0702 1899 stamped 600 NASHVILLE 1899 MC0305 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 14 USC AND G 1899 LZ0939 1899 stamped 620 HARRISBURG 1899 MC0308 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 15 USC AND G 1899 OD0757 1899 stamped 628 1899 ALBANY MC0334 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV 17 USC AND G 1899 OD0744 1899 stamped 630 ALBANY 1899 MC0356 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 18 USC AND G 1899 OD0737 1899 stamped 634 1899 ALBANY MC0360 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 19 USC AND G 1899 FD0486 1899 stamped 648 NASHVILLE 1899 MC0743 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 6 USC AND G 1899 FD0708 1899 stamped 683 NASHVILLE 1899 MY3659 1893 stamped SPINDLE HILL 1893-1938 FD0478 1899 stamped 690 NASHVILLE 1899 MZ0947 1899 stamped 269 ALBANY 1899 FD0172 1899 stamped 694 NASHVILLE 1899 NA0003 1898 stamped 930 ALBANY 1898 FD0490 1899 stamped 697 NASHVILLE 1899 NA0756 1898 stamped 1272 ALBANY 1898 FD0296 1899 stamped 738 NASHVILLE 1899 NA1285 1898 stamped 978 ALBANY 1898 FD0297 1899 stamped 738 NASHVILLE 1899 NA1308 1898 stamped 1047 ALBANY 1898 OD0987 1899 stamped 749 ALBANY 1899 NA1324 1898 stamped 1232 ALBANY 1898 NB0856 1899 stamped 766 OSWEGO 1899 NEW YORK NA1433 1898 stamped 867 ALBANY 1898 FC0379 1899 stamped 789 NASHVILLE 1899 NA1456 1898 stamped 1384 ALBANY 1898 KX1506 1899 stamped 844 PITTSBURGH 1899 NA1457 1898 stamped 1384 ALBANY 1898 RESET KX1504 1899 stamped 852 PITTSBURG 1899 NA1464 1898 stamped 1051 ALBANY 1898 JX0079 1899 stamped 859 PITTSBURG 1899 NB0281 1898 stamped 818 ALBANY 1898 KX1273 1899 stamped 868 PITTSBURGH 1899 NB0377 1898 stamped 840 ALBANY 1898 NB0925 1899 stamped 870 RESET 1899 NB0572 1899 stamped 481 OSWEGO 1899 JX0175 1899 stamped 885 PITTSBURG 1899 NB0856 1899 stamped 766 OSWEGO 1899 NEW YORK FD0178 1899 stamped 895 NASHVILLE 1899 NB0885 1899 stamped OSWEGO 1899 FD0196 1899 stamped 916 NASHVILLE 1899 NB0925 1899 stamped 870 RESET 1899 MA1233 1899 stamped 919 1899 NB0989 1899 stamped OSWEGO 720 1899 LZ0517 1899 stamped 966 H 1899 NB1082 1898 stamped 1006 D 1898 FD0161 1899 stamped 971 NASHVILLE 1899 NB1108 1898 stamped 935 D 1898 MA1209 1899 stamped 989 PITTSBURG 1899 NB1125 1899 stamped 1050 OSWEGO 1899 NEW YORK MC0334 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV 17 USC AND G 1899 NB1150 1899 stamped OSWEGO 734 1899 NE0485 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NC 20 USC AND G 1899 NB1207 1898 stamped 1573 D 1898 MC0291 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 11 USC AND G 1899 NB1215 1898 stamped 1675 D 1898 MC0303 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 13 USC AND G 1899 NB1223 1898 stamped 1610 D 1898 MC0305 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 14 USC AND G 1899 NC0176 1898 stamped 1593 D 1898 MC0308 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 15 USC AND G 1899 NC0198 1898 stamped 1393 1898 D MC0356 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 18 USC AND G 1899 NE0485 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NC 20 USC AND G 1899 MC0360 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 19 USC AND G 1899 NE0494 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 21 USC AND G 1899 NE0494 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 21 USC AND G 1899 NE0496 1899 stamped NO 22 BENCH MARK ELEV USC AND G 1899 MC0743 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 6 USC AND G 1899 NE0520 1899 stamped NO 24 BENCH MARK USC AND G 1899 ELEV MC0279 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 7 USC AND G 1899 OD0737 1899 stamped 634 1899 ALBANY MC0282 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 8 USG AND G 1899 OD0744 1899 stamped 630 ALBANY 1899 MC0287 1899 stamped BENCH MARK ELEV NO 9 USC AND G 1899 OD0748 1899 stamped 6 1899 ALBANY JY0700 1899 stamped COLUMBUS 1899 778 OD0757 1899 stamped 628 1899 ALBANY JF1625 1899 stamped LODER 1899 OD0787 1899 stamped 314 ALBANY 1899 FA1351 1899 stamped NCGS - USGS 1899 OD0987 1899 stamped 749 ALBANY 1899 FA1352 1899 stamped NCGS - USGS 1899 OD1369 1872 stamped WILCOX 1872 NE0496 1899 stamped NO 22 BENCH MARK ELEV USC AND G 1899 OF0763 1899 stamped OSWEGO 438 1899 NE0520 1899 stamped NO 24 BENCH MARK USC AND G 1899 ELEV OF0904 1875 stamped WALWORTH 1875 DY1096 1899 stamped OLD NO 1 1899 OF0906 1875 stamped WALWORTH 1875 DY1094 1899 stamped OLD NO 2 1899 QB0678 1899 stamped 2113.283 L 310 1899 NB0885 1899 stamped OSWEGO 1899 QL0218 1874 stamped FORD RIVER 1874 OF0763 1899 stamped OSWEGO 438 1899 RA0776 1899 stamped 2788.610 A M 305 1899 NB0989 1899 stamped OSWEGO 720 1899 RB0433 1899 stamped 1528.242 A 1899 NB1150 1899 stamped OSWEGO 734 1899 RC0860 1894 stamped HIGH WATER MARK JUNE 6 1894 106.171 MA0816 1899 stamped PENNSYLVANIA 1086 DUNKIRK 1899 RC1542 1898 stamped 99.606 E 24 1898 MA1512 1899 stamped PITTSBURG 1214 1899 RC1569 1898 stamped 102.966 L 24 1898 JW0911 1899 stamped PITTSBURG 999 1899 SC0412 1898 stamped O 31-21 1898 Quote Link to comment
+Zhanna Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Ah! Found a slightly older one, this time from 1898: 867 USGS ~Zhanna http://surveymarks.planetzhanna.com/ Quote Link to comment
+Black Dog Trackers Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 holograph - Your list is an excellent and exciting resource!!! I checked a bunch of those PIDs and many have not been found by GEOCAC people yet. I did find in your list ED0700 which is an 1892 disk with the $250 on it. There are several actual disks that age and older that are waiting...... Quote Link to comment
holograph Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I notice that the 1892 disk was a USGS disk, not a CGS disk. It looked like a couple other of the oldest ones were USGS, too. I don't know if that means that USGS was setting disks before CGS, or just that the CGS may have been doing mostly coastal and tidal marks and so fewer of them are preserved. I wonder if there is any way to find the date of the law that authorized the fine? Quote Link to comment
Z15 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 USGS History. Seems USGS started using metal disks around 1896 and they have the $250 fine on them. Check out the linbk for more info.. It would follow that USC&GS, US Lake Survey etc followed USGS lead. Figure 17. Bench marks, showing elevations above sea level, greatly enhanced the value of topographic maps, 1896. Quote Link to comment
+Zhanna Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I wonder if there is any way to find the date of the law that authorized the fine? Probably, but it may take some digging around (something we benchmark hunters don't usually mind). If you're interested, here's the law as stated in the U.S. Code: From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [Laws in effect as of January 2, 2001] [Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between January 2, 2001 and January 22, 2002] [CITE: 18USC1858] TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I--CRIMES CHAPTER 91--PUBLIC LANDS Sec. 1858. Survey marks destroyed or removed Whoever willfully destroys, defaces, changes, or removes to another place any section corner, quarter-section corner, or meander post, on any Government line of survey, or willfully cuts down any witness tree or any tree blazed to mark the line of a Government survey, or willfully defaces, changes, or removes any monument or bench mark of any Government survey, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 789; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(E), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2146.) Historical and Revision Notes Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., Sec. 111 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, Sec. 57, 35 Stat. 1099). Minor changes were made in phraseology. Amendments 1994--Pub. L. 103-322 substituted "fined under this title" for "fined not more than $250". The earliest date I see on there is 1909, but it looks like there are some leads here that you could follow up on and possibly trace back to an earlier version of the law. I'll see if I can come up with anything. ~Zhanna http://surveymarks.planetzhanna.com/ Quote Link to comment
+Black Dog Trackers Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 (edited) It seems odd that in a hundred years of inflation, the fine amount has not changed. I wonder if the $250 amount was approximately equivalent to the cost of re-establishing a mark around 1890. Not to say that a disturbed mark would necessarily be re-set, but the fine may have been set to be roughly equivalent to the damage done. Edited July 5, 2005 by Black Dog Trackers Quote Link to comment
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