To ban or not to ban LPC's

[+TrailGators]

I'm still reading along. Generally everyone was playing nicely and posting thoughtfully. But at this time, the tribe has spoken and Mushtang is voted off the island.

 

Clan Riffster got a few votes at tribal council, but he's a smart player and will adjust his strategy. But in the Survivor Fantasy League, he's attracting a few picks for "voted off the traffic island" in the next episode.

 

Finally, Team GeoBlast received some votes at tribal council and had to use the hidden immunity idol. He's still in the game, but no longer has guaranteed immunity.

 

To everyone else, thanks for playing "Survivor: Traffic Island."

Sounds like the Ammoiliki tribe had a close one but they survived. But the Lampawatu tribe is now down to the Jester, TAR and Sbell. Sbell must be on Exile Island because we haven't heard from him in awhile. I wonder if he'll find the hidden immunity idol. I heard that the idol might be hidden under a lamp post cover on the island. I wonder if he'll be able to find it because it's in such a challenging location.

[Clan Riffster]

I'd like to come forward with my hat in my hand, and offer my apologies to anyone I may have ticked off with my snarky comments. I'd like to claim that my passion for the game runs so deep that my exuberance oft exceeds my courtesy, but my wife would just say, "No Sean, you're just a ______". (<~~Insert favorite expletive here). Since she is by far the brighter of us two, I have to assume she is right, so I will dine on crow & beg the forgiveness of those whom I may have offended.

Sorry guys & gals, I'll play nice!

-Sean-

 

Back on topic: Education beats legislation every time. If you believe LPC's are a detriment to the game, work toward educating your peers regarding your beliefs. Banning them, in my opinion, is way too harsh a reaction.

[+TrailGators]

Education beats legislation every time. If you believe LPC's are a detriment to the game, work toward educating your peers regarding your beliefs. Banning them, in my opinion, is way too harsh a reaction.

I agree 100%. I don't agree with banning either. I brought up limiting to discuss, but that won't work either. The only thing we can do is help all the newbies learn why certain types of hides (like LPCs) are really not that fun to many of us. I think it's a good idea to try to learn how to make caches more fun. I have learned a lot from my own hides and from all the caches that I have found. Edited March 5, 2007 by TrailGators

[+Team GeoBlast]

I'd like to come forward with my hat in my hand, and offer my apologies to anyone I may have ticked off with my snarky comments. I'd like to claim that my passion for the game runs so deep that my exuberance oft exceeds my courtesy, but my wife would just say, "No Sean, you're just a ______". (<~~Insert favorite expletive here). Since she is by far the brighter of us two, I have to assume she is right, so I will dine on crow & beg the forgiveness of those whom I may have offended.

Sorry guys & gals, I'll play nice!

-Sean-

 

Back on topic: Education beats legislation every time. If you believe LPC's are a detriment to the game, work toward educating your peers regarding your beliefs. Banning them, in my opinion, is way too harsh a reaction.

 

Although I no longer have the immunity idol, I feel better about my chances because the island is short one of it's biggest antagonists tonight. I just want to remind the remaining survivors what a gentle place this thread is becoming and how fortunate we are to remain. Remember, once you step off these sands, it's a full blown jungle where they play with real spears.

 

As far as education on the anatomy of a great hide, do you know of any place where something like this can be found on line? I know of the geocacher U and a few other places that offer general instruction but has anyone tried to put this together?

 

Check out this podcacher episode on cammo and FTF.. I think that a few might get a chuckle out of the image anyway.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

The only thing we can do is help all the newbies learn why certain types of hides (like LPCs) are really not that fun to many of us.

An education is in order, all right! You need to teach yourself not to hunt stuff you don't like!

 

Why should we try to "learn" what you like and act accordingly?

 

The sheer number of LPC hiders and seekers tell us quite a number of cachers like them.

 

We learn from that!

[+TrailGators]

An education is in order, all right! You need to teach yourself not to hunt stuff you don't like! Why should we try to "learn" what you like and act accordingly?

First of all, I don't find them anymore (100+ of them was enough for me). Second of all, we can all learn something from each other. For example, I have learned from you that there are some people that are unwilling to listen and learn.

 

Also what I have found is that "the sheer numbers" are being hidden by a small percentage of people. People find them because they run into them everywhere they go. I have found well over 100 of them and I can't stand them anymore.

Edited March 5, 2007 by TrailGators

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

An education is in order, all right! You need to teach yourself not to hunt stuff you don't like! Why should we try to "learn" what you like and act accordingly?

First of all, I don't find them anymore (100+ of them was enough for me). Second of all, we can all learn something from each other. For example, I have learned from you that there are some people that are unwilling to listen no matter what you say.

Ah! Then you learned the lesson that supported what you want to believe!

 

I listen, I research, I process, I evaluate, and then make a decision!

 

So far no argument expressed in this thread or any other has shown me a single legitimate reason to fear that the future of the game is endangered by LPCs, or that LPCs reduce your enjoyment of the game, or that LPCs are dangerouus, or taking up all the good space, or that I should be ashamed for hunting LPCs.

 

No convincing argument to the contrary present, I will continue to enjoy them.

 

That's a far cry from not listening and being inflexible!

[+TrailGators]

So far no argument expressed in this thread or any other has shown me a single legitimate reason to fear that the future of the game is endangered by LPCs, or that LPCs reduce your enjoyment of the game, or that LPCs are dangerous, or taking up all the good space, or that I should be ashamed for hunting LPCs. No convincing argument to the contrary present, I will continue to enjoy them.

Who said the game was endangered? LPCs do reduce enjoyment of many because they are hard to avoid without spending time researching or throwing away every cache that is a 1/1 or 1.5/1 from our PQs. We've been through this, you are not listening. There wouldn't be an issue, if we had an easy way to filter them all out from our PQs. Edited March 5, 2007 by TrailGators

[Clan Riffster]

As far as education on the anatomy of a great hide, do you know of any place where something like this can be found on line?

Several pages back, Criminal posted a link to one of his caches, which serves as a tutorial to creating a great cache. I was thinking of doing something similar. The Northeast Florida Geocachers Association hosted an event recently that taught caching basics. There are probably other avenues to explore in teaching the general caching public what makes a great cache Vs. what makes a stale cache. When I started playing, I had no teacher other than the caches I found. My first few hides reflected this lack of knowledge.

[+TrailGators]

As far as education on the anatomy of a great hide, do you know of any place where something like this can be found on line?

Several pages back, Criminal posted a link to one of his caches, which serves as a tutorial to creating a great cache. I was thinking of doing something similar. The Northeast Florida Geocachers Association hosted an event recently that taught caching basics. There are probably other avenues to explore in teaching the general caching public what makes a great cache Vs. what makes a stale cache. When I started playing, I had no teacher other than the caches I found. My first few hides reflected this lack of knowledge.

We can also encourage newbies to do the must-do or favorite caches in the area. They are a lot of fun plus those are the kind of caches that provide some kewl ideas that they can emulate.

[+tozainamboku]

What is it about LPCs that causes the LPC haters to hate them so much?

 

It can't be that they too common. I don't hear the haters complain that there are too many ammo cans left under a pile of sticks or too many tupperware containers in bushes. Maybe there are some places where LPCs are far more common than any other cache type but I haven't seen this yet. They probably occur less often than other "common" hiding techniques.

 

It can't be that they're more likely to be hidden without permission. I don't hear the haters complain about hide-a-keys on transformer boxes. I've seen a lot of LPCs that were hidden in public parking lots or at park parking lots, and others hidden in church parking lots by the Sunday school class. If the problem is permission, then complain about caches placed without permission not about LPCs.

 

It can't be that they're not creative. I don't hear the haters complain about altoids tins in newsracks or guardrails, ammo cans under a pile of sticks, or decon containers in bushes. Not every cacher has the talent or inspiration to hide a unique cache. Most caches are simple and if there is a hiding technique that works well it will be copied.

 

It can't be that they don't have swag. Many LPCs are altoids tins or small containters that can hold small items. Even the often maligned 35mm film can can hold a few small trinkets. I don't hear the haters complain about bison tubes hidden in fence posts.

 

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide. Usually an inexpesive container with a log sheet. Other cachers may spend $10 for a watertight container and materials to camouflage it. To me this sound like cache snobbery. The LPCs hater thinks he is better because he spent more money. I guess, I just don't see the point in judging a cache by the amount of money someone spent on it.

 

It can't be that LPCs are in uninspiring places. I do hear some of the same haters complain about caches in newsracks or hidden near dumpsters in other threads. If this is the problem they shouldn't single out LPCs. Several people have given examples of LPCs where there is a nice view or where the lamp posts is on a walking path instead of in a parking lot. My personal opinion is that not every cache has to take you to an inspiring place. However, I will agree that a good location does improve my caching experience.

 

It can't be that LPCs are pushing out other kinds of caches. If there is a location near a parking lot where you could hide an ammo can, it is probably already .1 miles away. I'd like to see the haters provide examples of where someone who was going to hide a regular cache couldn't because of an LPC blocking the area. I don't doubt that they exists, but wouldn't guardrail and fencepost micros be more likely to cause the problem? Frankly, my experience is that there are far more regular cache to be found then there were one year ago. The increase in urban cachers hiding urban micros has not significantly impacted urban regular caches as far as I can tell. Without presenting real evidence beyond a few anecdotes this argument is a red-herring. Even it it were true, I would repeat my claim that any call to limit LPCs is basically an affirmitive action program for caches that the haters prefer to LPCs.

[+Criminal]

As far as education on the anatomy of a great hide, do you know of any place where something like this can be found on line?

Several pages back, Criminal posted a link to one of his caches, which serves as a tutorial to creating a great cache. I was thinking of doing something similar. The Northeast Florida Geocachers Association hosted an event recently that taught caching basics. There are probably other avenues to explore in teaching the general caching public what makes a great cache Vs. what makes a stale cache. When I started playing, I had no teacher other than the caches I found. My first few hides reflected this lack of knowledge.

I think you're talking about this one. I was given permission to hide a cache in a very memorable location (although I don't think all of the finders know why it's memorable) and needed something better than a micro. I also had to hide a lock combination in the text, so I had to come up with something verbose within which to hide it.

 

I had recently done a cache by EraSeek up on Mt. Pilchuck and was finally able to verbalize what I had been trying to express for a long time. I’ve never believed in ‘banning’ certain types of caches, preferring instead to vote with my pen. On his cache, I posted this in my log:

This is an awesome spot on a great trail. I think if everyone, when deciding to hide a cache, would just ask themselves, “What would EraSeek Do?” the cache quality would increase dramatically.

 

You see, it’s about reputation. I know, before leaving the house, that a cache by this and certain other geocachers is going to be memorable. If you consider, before hiding a micro under a lamppost skirt, whether or not someone will remember your cache in a week, or a year, or several years, would you still place it?

 

So to answer the question, a great hide is one that will be fondly remembered by the finder, not lost in the haze of mindless numbers grinding.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Criminal

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

What is it about LPCs that causes the LPC haters to hate them so much?

 

I skipped straight to the end of this thread to read this. Surely SOMEONE has answered this question in these 18 pages?!? Here's a few reasons:

 

It can be that they are too common.

It can be that they're more likely to be hidden without permission.

It can be that they're not creative.

It can be that they don't have swag. (don't think this is a very common reason)

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide.

It can be that LPCs are in uninspiring places.

It can be that LPCs are pushing out other kinds of caches. (again, don't think this is a very common reason)

 

There's other reasons (not enjoying stealth, safety, etc) but this list was readily available.

 

My personal reason is that I don't like any cache that I can identify before I even get out of the car. It's just not all that fun. I found 5 urban micros the other day, and not a one of them was in a lamp post skirt. They were all a lot of fun, and required actual hunting.

 

That's my reason. I don't think any form of cache should be actually banned, but it's obvious by the length of this thread that folks on both sides have strong opinions about LPC's. I doubt a thread about banning ammo cans in the woods would gain near as much traction.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Googling Hrpty Hrrs

[+Team GeoBlast]

An education is in order, all right! You need to teach yourself not to hunt stuff you don't like! Why should we try to "learn" what you like and act accordingly?

First of all, I don't find them anymore (100+ of them was enough for me). Second of all, we can all learn something from each other. For example, I have learned from you that there are some people that are unwilling to listen no matter what you say.

Ah! Then you learned the lesson that supported what you want to believe!

 

I listen, I research, I process, I evaluate, and then make a decision!

 

So far no argument expressed in this thread or any other has shown me a single legitimate reason to fear that the future of the game is endangered by LPCs, or that LPCs reduce your enjoyment of the game, or that LPCs are dangerouus, or taking up all the good space, or that I should be ashamed for hunting LPCs.

 

No convincing argument to the contrary present, I will continue to enjoy them.

 

That's a far cry from not listening and being inflexible!

 

Until someone shows me evidence of one LPC hide that has been hidden on the property of a Big Box store parking lot has EVER been placed legally per GC.com guidelines, local property law, or blanket permission on a corporate level. I would say there is no legitimate reason to think the game is not endangered by them if there are no examples of this available.

 

It's not like there has not been some very good supporting opinions and arguments presented to support that these hides are not good for the game either. For example an former Walmart employee of 10 years and a former police officer have both agreed that this type of cache is something that should not be placed or sought after. The suggestion that the hider is totally responsible because they check the box was compared very successfully to that of Napster and people checking a box saying that they had rights to upload music there.

 

While we are talking about supporting arguements, what evidence or fact, or even credible opinion has been presented that suggests that this not going to be a problem when these large deep pocket property owners get wind of what is going on? I've heard.."it's okay because people like them" and "I think they know"

[+Team GeoBlast]

What is it about LPCs that causes the LPC haters to hate them so much?

 

It can't be that they too common.

 

It can't be that they're more likely to be hidden without permission.

 

It can't be that they're not creative.

 

It can't be that they don't have swag.

 

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide.

 

It can't be that LPCs are in uninspiring places.

 

My personal opinion is that not every cache has to take you to an inspiring place. However, I will agree that a good location does improve my caching experience.

 

It can't be that LPCs are pushing out other kinds of caches. Even it it were true, I would repeat my claim that any call to limit LPCs is basically an affirmitive action program for caches that the haters prefer to LPCs.

 

Show of hands.. who HATES LPCs?

 

Although you presented a pretty good case for not seeking these caches, you didn't acknowledge that the assertion that LPCs that are CPCs (specifically Big Box Stores) have really been the bulk of the discussion. I personally think ANY cache; ammo box, magnetic on a transformer, bison tube on the merry go round etc. placed on a property like this is bad for the game and the benefit of their existence does not in any way out weigh the potential downside if one of these corporations took action. You cannot deny that there's exposure to their deep pockets and that is what motivates them to move.

 

It's my contention that "I think they know" or "what they don't know doesn't hurt them" are not strong enough reasons to support the current status quo in these hides.

[+Team GeoBlast]

What is it about LPCs that causes the LPC haters to hate them so much?

 

I skipped straight to the end of this thread to read this. Surely SOMEONE has answered this question in these 18 pages?!? Here's a few reasons:

 

It can be that they are too common.

It can be that they're more likely to be hidden without permission.

It can be that they're not creative.

It can be that they don't have swag. (don't think this is a very common reason)

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide.

It can be that LPCs are in uninspiring places.

It can be that LPCs are pushing out other kinds of caches. (again, don't think this is a very common reason)

 

There's other reasons (not enjoying stealth, safety, etc) but this list was readily available.

 

My personal reason is that I don't like any cache that I can identify before I even get out of the car. It's just not all that fun. I found 5 urban micros the other day, and not a one of them was in a lamp post skirt. They were all a lot of fun, and required actual hunting.

 

That's my reason. I don't think any form of cache should be actually banned, but it's obvious by the length of this thread that folks on both sides have strong opinions about LPC's. I doubt a thread about banning ammo cans in the woods would gain near as much traction.

 

All good points, thanks for sharing your reasons. Although I agree with most of what you said, a very strong feeling was expressed that these caches fill the needs of cachers that don't like to hike or physically can't hike. This have come up a lot in this thread, what are your thoughts on this?

[+tozainamboku]

Although you presented a pretty good case for not seeking these caches, you didn't acknowledge that the assertion that LPCs that are CPCs (specifically Big Box Stores) have really been the bulk of the discussion. I personally think ANY cache; ammo box, magnetic on a transformer, bison tube on the merry go round etc. placed on a property like this is bad for the game and the benefit of their existence does not in any way out weigh the potential downside if one of these corporations took action. You cannot deny that there's exposure to their deep pockets and that is what motivates them to move.

 

It's my contention that "I think they know" or "what they don't know doesn't hurt them" are not strong enough reasons to support the current status quo in these hides.

Funny how you edited this out when you quote me

If the problem is permission, then complain about caches placed without permission not about LPCs.

 

GHH had a good response. If I argue that one should accept that people like LPCs for various reasons, I should accept that one can hate them for various reasons. While I addressed that fact that the reasons given generally have nothing to do with LPCs per se, they may be reasons for not liking LPCs (at least certain LPCs). I'm pretty sure I've addressed my feeling on both the stealth issue and the danger issue earlier in this thread. GHH's comment that he doesn't like LPCs because he doesn't find them challenging is reasonable. Not everyone enjoys challenging caches - some prefer a park 'n grab. But certainly if you like challenge - and you don't care if the challenging cache is in a parking lot - LPCs are a big annoyance since you can't filter them without eliminating some challenging caches. Some LPCs are even rated 2 or more stars for difficulty. In anycase, it is clear that no one is going to convince the LPC haters to start liking them. I had hoped to convince people who hate LPCs to accept them as something that others may like. While this has has the effect of getting people to admit that it may not be a good idea to ban LPCs it hasn't stop them for posting that cachers should be encouraged to stop hiding LPCs and hide the kinds of hides that the haters prefer - either by proposing an affirmative action program for other caches or by trying to shame hiders (and finders) of LPCs.

[+TrailGators]

GHH had a good response.

Yes. His main reason is exactly the same as mine:

 

My personal reason is that I don't like any cache that I can identify before I even get out of the car. It's just not all that fun. I found 5 urban micros the other day, and not a one of them was in a lamp post skirt. They were all a lot of fun, and required actual hunting. That's my reason. I don't think any form of cache should be actually banned, but it's obvious by the length of this thread that folks on both sides have strong opinions about LPC's. I doubt a thread about banning ammo cans in the woods would gain near as much traction.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Although you presented a pretty good case for not seeking these caches, you didn't acknowledge that the assertion that LPCs that are CPCs (specifically Big Box Stores) have really been the bulk of the discussion. I personally think ANY cache; ammo box, magnetic on a transformer, bison tube on the merry go round etc. placed on a property like this is bad for the game and the benefit of their existence does not in any way out weigh the potential downside if one of these corporations took action. You cannot deny that there's exposure to their deep pockets and that is what motivates them to move.

 

It's my contention that "I think they know" or "what they don't know doesn't hurt them" are not strong enough reasons to support the current status quo in these hides.

Funny how you edited this out when you quote me

If the problem is permission, then complain about caches placed without permission not about LPCs.

 

GHH had a good response. If I argue that one should accept that people like LPCs for various reasons, I should accept that one can hate them for various reasons. While I addressed that fact that the reasons given generally have nothing to do with LPCs per se, they may be reasons for not liking LPCs (at least certain LPCs). I'm pretty sure I've addressed my feeling on both the stealth issue and the danger issue earlier in this thread. GHH's comment that he doesn't like LPCs because he doesn't find them challenging is reasonable. Not everyone enjoys challenging caches - some prefer a park 'n grab. But certainly if you like challenge - and you don't care if the challenging cache is in a parking lot - LPCs are a big annoyance since you can't filter them without eliminating some challenging caches. Some LPCs are even rated 2 or more stars for difficulty. In anycase, it is clear that no one is going to convince the LPC haters to start liking them. I had hoped to convince people who hate LPCs to accept them as something that others may like. While this has has the effect of getting people to admit that it may not be a good idea to ban LPCs it hasn't stop them for posting that cachers should be encouraged to stop hiding LPCs and hide the kinds of hides that the haters prefer - either by proposing an affirmative action program for other caches or by trying to shame hiders (and finders) of LPCs.

 

Oh please don't do me like that. I didn't selectively edit your post. I took all verbiage out but the titles because I wanted to shorten it the post length. Didn't GHH do the same thing? I also proceeded to complain about all caches on commercial Big Box Property so come man.. lighten up.

 

I certainly can avoid LPCs and for the most part, I do. In my opinion, all caches placed on property of a large Big Box store are potentially harmful to people that have never found an urban geocache if they successfully filed an injunction. That is why I don't just ignore their existence.. it could effect me. When you look at it from the sky...I don't even think the situation is correctable if they demanded that all CPCs on Big Box Store property are to be immediately removed.

 

The truth is that nobody, including GC.com knows anything more than what we do as far as which caches are Big Box hides.

[Clan Riffster]

What is it about LPCs that causes the LPC haters to hate them so much?

Having never met an LPC hater, I have no clue. I can however, offer some perspective from those who don't care for them, as I've read many opinions on this over the last 18 pages, and I share some of those opinions:

 

It can't be that they're more likely to be hidden without permission.

In my opinion, Commercial Property Caches are the ones most likely to be hidden without, (what I would consider), adequate permission. As many who dislike LPC's have pointed out, hiding anything on private property, even when the general public is allowed to be there, such as a big box parking lot, without the explicit permission of the owner, could be a bad thing. So, I have to respectfully rebut that claim.

 

It can't be that they're not creative.

It most certainly can be that they are not creative. A common thread throughout many who have posted against LPC's are that they are uninspired, and that uninspired hides, regardless of cache size or location, is a bad thing. For some, LPC's personify uninspired caches. While I admit there are exceptions, the average LPC around here is a 35mm film canister shoved under a lamp post skirt, in a remarkably ugly location. In that scenario, the container is one of the worst ever to hold a scrap of paper, the hide technique takes absolutely no effort to figure out, and the location is about as uninspiring as you can possibly get. These types of hides are so utterly devoid of creativity that they create an IQ vacuum, sucking away what few brain cells I have left.

 

It can't be that they don't have swag.

Although this would not be my argument against them, it's still a valid one. The typical LPC around here is a 35mm film canister. The exceptions are rare, but include hide-a-keys and mini Altoids tins. None of which are capable of holding what most would consider to be a reasonable amount of swag. Many cachers believe that any thing without swag is not a "real" cache. I don't happen to agree with this particular belief, but some folks do.

 

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide. To me this sound like cache snobbery.

You say this like it's a bad thing. In my opinion, an ammo can filled with gold bullion, hidden at a scenic location, would in fact be a better cache than a film canister hidden in a 500 acre chunk of sweltering, exhaust filled, trash strewn blacktop. If this belief makes me a snob, then at least I'm in good company.

 

It can't be that LPCs are in uninspiring places.

Personally, I'd say this was the number one complaint from those who dislike LPC's. "Yawn....Another parking lot....Great" Groundspeak touts itself as "The Language of Location", and while it could technically be argued that a parking lot is a location, I tend to read more into their tag line than that. Maybe that's just me?

 

It can't be that LPCs are pushing out other kinds of caches.

Yeah, I agree. That's a stretch. Something I do as a mental exercise, just about every time I find a cache, is ask myself, "Riffster, if this was your hide, how would you improve it?" Naturally this little Q&A stays internalized, and is only used by me, to improve my hides later. I would never be so crass as to post a log suggesting how someone else should improve their hide. If asked, I'll share my thoughts in person. Otherwise, nobody knows about the voices in my head but me. So far, I haven't seen a single LPC that couldn't be vastly improved upon, if relocated a short distance away. While this isn't actually pushing out any hides, it certainly prevents any nearby, non-LPC's from being hidden at that particular spot. (yeah, I know...I told you it was a stretch... )

[+gof1]

 

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide. To me this sound like cache snobbery.

You say this like it's a bad thing. In my opinion, an ammo can filled with gold bullion, hidden at a scenic location, would in fact be a better cache than a film canister hidden in a 500 acre chunk of sweltering, exhaust filled, trash strewn blacktop. If this belief makes me a snob, then at least I'm in good company.

 

 

I can't say I love LPCs. Can't say I hate them either.

I can say that if I every find an LPC stuffed with a couple of ounces of gold (how much can a film can hold?) that I will never log it on line, and it will have been my favorite hide.

[Clan Riffster]

So to answer the question, a great hide is one that will be fondly remembered by the finder, not lost in the haze of mindless numbers grinding.

Beautifully said! Can I steal that for my next T-shirt?

 

I doubt a thread about banning ammo cans in the woods would gain near as much traction.

Agreed. I often wonder why we don't see more, "I hate ammo cans" threads.

 

A very strong feeling was expressed that these caches fill the needs of cachers that don't like to hike or physically can't hike. This have come up a lot in this thread, what are your thoughts on this?

I've got one knee in need of immediate surgery, and the other's not far behind. If I load up on Goody's Powders, I can do about 3 miles round trip before I get the bone on bone grinding sensation. My wife Viv injured her hip, and is only good for about a half mile round trip. Once we reach the agony point, we're done for the day. This severely limits the caches we can hunt together. That doesn't mean that we don't like a challenging hide. With just a hint of effort, a terrain 1 hide can be a challenge to find. Just because the total distance to a particular cache is short, doesn't mean the hide has to lack creativity.

 

I had hoped to convince people who hate LPCs to accept them as something that others may like.

I think the vast majority of folks who dislike LPC's would agree that there are folks who like them. I haven't seen anyone in the anti-LPC camp say to the LPC-lovers; "You guys don't really like LPC's!" However, speaking strictly for myself, it's my oft stated position that the average LPC is detrimental to the game. Since I love this game, I have a hard time just letting them Live & Let Live.

[+gof1]

 

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide. To me this sound like cache snobbery.

You say this like it's a bad thing. In my opinion, an ammo can filled with gold bullion, hidden at a scenic location, would in fact be a better cache than a film canister hidden in a 500 acre chunk of sweltering, exhaust filled, trash strewn blacktop. If this belief makes me a snob, then at least I'm in good company.

 

 

I can't say I love LPCs. Can't say I hate them either.

I can say that if I every find an LPC stuffed with a couple of ounces of gold (how much can a film can hold?) that I will never log it on line, and it will have been my favorite hide.

[+DrAwKwArD]

 

I've got one knee in need of immediate surgery, and the other's not far behind. If I load up on Goody's Powders, I can do about 3 miles round trip before I get the bone on bone grinding sensation. My wife Viv injured her hip, and is only good for about a half mile round trip. Once we reach the agony point, we're done for the day. This severely limits the caches we can hunt together. That doesn't mean that we don't like a challenging hide. With just a hint of effort, a terrain 1 hide can be a challenge to find. Just because the total distance to a particular cache is short, doesn't mean the hide has to lack creativity.

My favorite caches are the 1/4 to 1/2-mile hikes. You can do several of these in a day and don't have to worry about packing a whole bunch of stuff. In fact, I've created a public bookmark containing these very caches that I've found.

Edited March 6, 2007 by cache-n-dash

[+TrailGators]

So to answer the question, a great hide is one that will be fondly remembered by the finder, not lost in the haze of mindless numbers grinding.

Beautifully said! Can I steal that for my next T-shirt?

There's a lot of truth in that...

[+sbell111]

I just got back from my short trip to the Los Angeles area. For my trip, I loaded 2700 area caches in my Venture CX and my pda. I only loaded caches with difficulty and terrain ratings lower than 3. I did not sort in or out any specific caches or kinds of caches. I found no LPCs in the local mall or shopping center parking lots. In fact, I found only one LPC. It was a decon container in the back lot of a grocery store. I had a nice conversation with the store manager while I was logging it, so I guess it was placed with permission.

Edited March 6, 2007 by sbell111

[Keystone]

Until someone shows me evidence of one LPC hide that has been hidden on the property of a Big Box store parking lot has EVER been placed legally per GC.com guidelines, local property law, or blanket permission on a corporate level. I would say there is no legitimate reason to think the game is not endangered by them if there are no examples of this available.

I give you my word that I see many lamp post caches come through my review queue for publication on the site, with a private note from the owner saying "hidden with permission from the store management." Others don't. Some with permission are at big stores, some are at small stores, some are at church parking lots. It's not my place to judge, as I assume that *everyone* has obtained "adequate permission" unless there's a reason to believe otherwise. Because a significant percentage do say they're hidden with permission, I have no basis to question the other ones.

[+tozainamboku]

Funny how you edited this out when you quote me

If the problem is permission, then complain about caches placed without permission not about LPCs.

 

 

Oh please don't do me like that. I didn't selectively edit your post. I took all verbiage out but the titles because I wanted to shorten it the post length. Didn't GHH do the same thing? I also proceeded to complain about all caches on commercial Big Box Property so come man.. lighten up.

First let me apologize to TGB. I was at work and read your response rather quickly, so I missed that you were changing the topic to any cache placed on comercial property without permission. I already started another thread because I feel that this issue deserves being discussed without the distraction of arguing about LPCs. The point I was trying to make in my list was that the complaints in this thread about LPCs are true of other caches and not true of all LPCs, so they aren't really good reasons to ban or otherwise limit LPCs. I pointed out the there are many LPCs that are placed with permission and there are non-LPC cache places in Big Box store parking lots that are probably there without permission.

 

I anticipated reaction from the LPC haters objecting to being called haters. Some prefer LPC dislikers. I won't post the dictionary entry to show that dislike is a synonym for hate. Others prefer to be listed as prefering any other cache to an LPC. That is like prefering any other flavor of ice cream to rocky road. I can't control what you prefer, just like you can't control what other people prefer. GHH's post pointed out that while the reasons people give for hating/disliking/not prerefering LPCs may not apply to all LPCs and may even apply to other caches, some people perceive that the majority of LPCs have the problem and that other types of caches are less likely to have the problem. Without real statistics it is hard to know whether these perceptions are correct or not. I found sbell111's post that on his recent trip to LA he found only one LPC interesting. Perhaps I am fortunate to live where I do, and that is why I don't feel threatened by LPCs taking over the game.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Funny how you edited this out when you quote me

If the problem is permission, then complain about caches placed without permission not about LPCs.

 

 

Oh please don't do me like that. I didn't selectively edit your post. I took all verbiage out but the titles because I wanted to shorten it the post length. Didn't GHH do the same thing? I also proceeded to complain about all caches on commercial Big Box Property so come man.. lighten up.

First let me apologize to TGB. I was at work and read your response rather quickly, so I missed that you were changing the topic to any cache placed on comercial property without permission. I already started another thread because I feel that this issue deserves being discussed without the distraction of arguing about LPCs. The point I was trying to make in my list was that the complaints in this thread about LPCs are true of other caches and not true of all LPCs, so they aren't really good reasons to ban or otherwise limit LPCs. I pointed out the there are many LPCs that are placed with permission and there are non-LPC cache places in Big Box store parking lots that are probably there without permission.

 

I anticipated reaction from the LPC haters objecting to being called haters. Some prefer LPC dislikers. I won't post the dictionary entry to show that dislike is a synonym for hate. Others prefer to be listed as prefering any other cache to an LPC. That is like prefering any other flavor of ice cream to rocky road. I can't control what you prefer, just like you can't control what other people prefer. GHH's post pointed out that while the reasons people give for hating/disliking/not prerefering LPCs may not apply to all LPCs and may even apply to other caches, some people perceive that the majority of LPCs have the problem and that other types of caches are less likely to have the problem. Without real statistics it is hard to know whether these perceptions are correct or not. I found sbell111's post that on his recent trip to LA he found only one LPC interesting. Perhaps I am fortunate to live where I do, and that is why I don't feel threatened by LPCs taking over the game.

 

No worries T.

 

Knowing that the thread you started is actually more on topic with my interests, I only have one reservation about heading over to your thread and it's that it does not offer the safe haven that this one does now. I've not quite grown thick enough skin for this forum yet, I guess. This thread grows a little more productive with each torch being extinguished and I rather like that aspect. With fewer and fewer personal attacks it become more a place to discuss and not argue.

 

Hawaii is a lot like your area, we don't have LPCs but I run into them consistently in other places when I travel. So I too am lucky in that respect and when I run PQ in major cities.. I really feel lucky. Although the game is growing pretty fast here, so far we've been able to develop a geo-culture where people really do their best when they place a cache... some go as far as describing it as a performing art. Of course not all are exceptional but the effort is almost always evident.

 

Like I said, I don't feel threatened by LPCs per se taking over the game. I do feel like the "LPC mentality" is a bit dangerous though. Some areas I find myself in resemble fast food, the quicker, easier, and cheaper you can place or find a cache the better. Each area that I have traveled in is unique and the energy seems to contagious among cachers. Sometimes, you don't even have to go out and look.. all you need to know is right there on the cache pages.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[+Team GeoBlast]

Until someone shows me evidence of one LPC hide that has been hidden on the property of a Big Box store parking lot has EVER been placed legally per GC.com guidelines, local property law, or blanket permission on a corporate level. I would say there is no legitimate reason to think the game is not endangered by them if there are no examples of this available.

I give you my word that I see many lamp post caches come through my review queue for publication on the site, with a private note from the owner saying "hidden with permission from the store management." Others don't. Some with permission are at big stores, some are at small stores, some are at church parking lots. It's not my place to judge, as I assume that *everyone* has obtained "adequate permission" unless there's a reason to believe otherwise. Because a significant percentage do say they're hidden with permission, I have no basis to question the other ones.

 

Really appreciate your input as a reviewer, otherwise it is just more guesswork on our part. I suppose that between your moderator work here and reviewing caches, there's not a lot of time to pick up the phone or write letters to verify the information you've been given on submission, right? This actually brings me to my first question...is it your instruction from GC.com to take stated permission at face value? How does GC.com define permission on a commercial property?

 

For example a Walmart store of say 200 employees where the property itself is controlled remotely at the corporate level, is permission from any of the 200 employees adequate?

[+Team GeoBlast]

I just got back from my short trip to the Los Angeles area. For my trip, I loaded 2700 area caches in my Venture CX and my pda. I only loaded caches with difficulty and terrain ratings lower than 3. I did not sort in or out any specific caches or kinds of caches. I found no LPCs in the local mall or shopping center parking lots. In fact, I found only one LPC. It was a decon container in the back lot of a grocery store. I had a nice conversation with the store manager while I was logging it, so I guess it was placed with permission.

 

What area of Los Angeles were you in? I know this is way off topic but you can get 2700 cache waypoints into your GPS? That's way cool. The more I find out about the units others are using, the greater the envy.

[+Team GeoBlast]

What is it about LPCs that causes the LPC haters to hate them so much?

Having never met an LPC hater, I have no clue. I can however, offer some perspective from those who don't care for them, as I've read many opinions on this over the last 18 pages, and I share some of those opinions:

 

It can't be that they're more likely to be hidden without permission.

In my opinion, Commercial Property Caches are the ones most likely to be hidden without, (what I would consider), adequate permission. As many who dislike LPC's have pointed out, hiding anything on private property, even when the general public is allowed to be there, such as a big box parking lot, without the explicit permission of the owner, could be a bad thing. So, I have to respectfully rebut that claim.

 

It can't be that they're not creative.

It most certainly can be that they are not creative. A common thread throughout many who have posted against LPC's are that they are uninspired, and that uninspired hides, regardless of cache size or location, is a bad thing. For some, LPC's personify uninspired caches. While I admit there are exceptions, the average LPC around here is a 35mm film canister shoved under a lamp post skirt, in a remarkably ugly location. In that scenario, the container is one of the worst ever to hold a scrap of paper, the hide technique takes absolutely no effort to figure out, and the location is about as uninspiring as you can possibly get. These types of hides are so utterly devoid of creativity that they create an IQ vacuum, sucking away what few brain cells I have left.

 

It can't be that they don't have swag.

Although this would not be my argument against them, it's still a valid one. The typical LPC around here is a 35mm film canister. The exceptions are rare, but include hide-a-keys and mini Altoids tins. None of which are capable of holding what most would consider to be a reasonable amount of swag. Many cachers believe that any thing without swag is not a "real" cache. I don't happen to agree with this particular belief, but some folks do.

 

It might be that LPCs are cheap to hide. To me this sound like cache snobbery.

You say this like it's a bad thing. In my opinion, an ammo can filled with gold bullion, hidden at a scenic location, would in fact be a better cache than a film canister hidden in a 500 acre chunk of sweltering, exhaust filled, trash strewn blacktop. If this belief makes me a snob, then at least I'm in good company.

 

It can't be that LPCs are in uninspiring places.

Personally, I'd say this was the number one complaint from those who dislike LPC's. "Yawn....Another parking lot....Great" Groundspeak touts itself as "The Language of Location", and while it could technically be argued that a parking lot is a location, I tend to read more into their tag line than that. Maybe that's just me?

 

It can't be that LPCs are pushing out other kinds of caches.

Yeah, I agree. That's a stretch. Something I do as a mental exercise, just about every time I find a cache, is ask myself, "Riffster, if this was your hide, how would you improve it?" Naturally this little Q&A stays internalized, and is only used by me, to improve my hides later. I would never be so crass as to post a log suggesting how someone else should improve their hide. If asked, I'll share my thoughts in person. Otherwise, nobody knows about the voices in my head but me. So far, I haven't seen a single LPC that couldn't be vastly improved upon, if relocated a short distance away. While this isn't actually pushing out any hides, it certainly prevents any nearby, non-LPC's from being hidden at that particular spot. (yeah, I know...I told you it was a stretch... )

 

An IQ vacuum? LOL! Has anyone ever started a list of Ransterisms?

[+sbell111]

I just got back from my short trip to the Los Angeles area. For my trip, I loaded 2700 area caches in my Venture CX and my pda. I only loaded caches with difficulty and terrain ratings lower than 3. I did not sort in or out any specific caches or kinds of caches. I found no LPCs in the local mall or shopping center parking lots. In fact, I found only one LPC. It was a decon container in the back lot of a grocery store. I had a nice conversation with the store manager while I was logging it, so I guess it was placed with permission.

What area of Los Angeles were you in? I know this is way off topic but you can get 2700 cache waypoints into your GPS? That's way cool. The more I find out about the units others are using, the greater the envy.

I was mostly in Huntington Beach and Long Beach.

 

With Garmin's CX models, you can load as many caches as you have room for on your micro SD card.

[+tozainamboku]

Knowing that the thread you started is actually more on topic with my interests, I only have one reservation about heading over to your thread and it's that it does not offer the safe haven that this one does now. I've not quite grown thick enough skin for this forum yet, I guess. This thread grows a little more productive with each torch being extinguished and I rather like that aspect. With fewer and fewer personal attacks it become more a place to discuss and not argue.

Your safe haven comment is what annoys me most. Keystone seems to have become a bit of a control freak lately and the use of the Survivor analogy in this thread totally baffles me. I find KBI's and Mushtan's argumentative technique annoying. Their argument is don't tell me how to play the game. And on face value, if LPCs are banned or limited by rules that apply to LPCs but not to other caches, they you are telling me how to play the game. My concern is that when the LPC haters/disklikers/non-preferers celebrate the banning of someone from the thread as validating their argument, this thread becomes less productive. There are fewer voices here that will point out that "problems" with LPCs are not problems of every LPC and in some cases are problems of some of the caches that the haters/dislikers/non-preferers prefer. The attitude that a cache is superior because the container cost more or it is larger or even it is not in a parking lot is a matter of personnal preference

Like I said, I don't feel threatened by LPCs per se taking over the game. I do feel like the "LPC mentality" is a bit dangerous though. Some areas I find myself in resemble fast food, the quicker, easier, and cheaper you can place or find a cache the better. Each area that I have traveled in is unique and the energy seems to contagious among cachers. Sometimes, you don't even have to go out and look.. all you need to know is right there on the cache pages.

Fast food is a personal preference. Some people want the quicker, easier, cheaper cache. Why are some people bothered by this? Is it because others have bigger numbers finding quick easy caches? I measure my geocaching by how much fun I had. Who am I to say that finding a cache in a lamp post on one's lunch hour isn't fun? Or driving from cache to cache to find 100 in a day isn't fun? I DNF'd this cache this weekend. I'm sure glad that the people who think a 4.5 star terrain up a steep rocky ridgeline with near vertical dropoff on either side isn't fun aren't calling for banning caches like this.

Edited March 6, 2007 by tozainamboku

[+TrailGators]

I just got back from my short trip to the Los Angeles area. For my trip, I loaded 2700 area caches in my Venture CX and my pda. I only loaded caches with difficulty and terrain ratings lower than 3. I did not sort in or out any specific caches or kinds of caches. I found no LPCs in the local mall or shopping center parking lots. In fact, I found only one LPC. It was a decon container in the back lot of a grocery store. I had a nice conversation with the store manager while I was logging it, so I guess it was placed with permission.

What area of Los Angeles were you in? I know this is way off topic but you can get 2700 cache waypoints into your GPS? That's way cool. The more I find out about the units others are using, the greater the envy.

I was mostly in Huntington Beach and Long Beach.

Yes, I will agree that I have cached in many areas that have far less LPCs than others. However, like I said before there there are some areas that have a few hiders that are going nuts with these kinds of hides. That's why I wanted an option to ignore all the hides of certain cachers. I think this is the most efficient way to solve the bulk of the issue for many of us.

[+tozainamboku]

I just got back from my short trip to the Los Angeles area. For my trip, I loaded 2700 area caches in my Venture CX and my pda. I only loaded caches with difficulty and terrain ratings lower than 3. I did not sort in or out any specific caches or kinds of caches. I found no LPCs in the local mall or shopping center parking lots. In fact, I found only one LPC. It was a decon container in the back lot of a grocery store. I had a nice conversation with the store manager while I was logging it, so I guess it was placed with permission.

What area of Los Angeles were you in? I know this is way off topic but you can get 2700 cache waypoints into your GPS? That's way cool. The more I find out about the units others are using, the greater the envy.

I was mostly in Huntington Beach and Long Beach.

 

With Garmin's CX models, you can load as many caches as you have room for on your micro SD card.

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread of the new super-prolific hider in the LA area who is hiding small tupperware containers. So far none that I know of have been LPCs. He has single handedly reducede LPCs in his area to an insignificant fraction of all caches. Instead of complaining about LPCs, the local forum has threads about what are too many caches for one hider to place. So it's not surprising that this is the area where sbell111 cached

[+Kit Fox]

I encourage all the cachers who dislike CPCs/ LPCs to do the following:

 

If you come upon a cache that fits the description of a CPC/LPC, and it is located in a "less than scenic location," be sure to use your digital camera to take pictures of the "scenic view." Don't take spoiler pictures, but make an accurate survey of the area. Post your "scenic pics" on the cache page along with your found it log, or with your posted note.

 

Ever noticed that 99% of this type of cache never has a picture gallery? It's time to break that cycle.

 

These pictures are for the benefit of us cachers who use the picture galleries to asses the merits of this type of cache. You are helping your fellow geocacher.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Kit Fox

[+TrailGators]

I encourage all the cachers who dislike CPCs/ LPCs to do the following:

 

If you come upon a cache that fits the description of a CPC/LPC, and it is located in a "less than scenic location," be sure to use your digital camera to take pictures of the "scenic view." Don't take spoiler pictures, but make an accurate survey of the area. Post your "scenic pics" on the cache page along with your found it log, or with your posted note.

 

Ever noticed that 99% of this type of cache never has a picture gallery? It's time to break that cycle.

 

These pictures are for the benefit of us cachers who use the picture galleries to asses the merits of this type of cache. You are helping your fellow geocacher.

...and who knows maybe one of these photos will end up on the banner page! That would surely attract a bunch of people that have never visited geocaching.com to try out geocaching!

[+sbell111]

I encourage all the cachers who dislike CPCs/ LPCs to do the following:

 

If you come upon a cache that fits the description of a CPC/LPC, and it is located in a "less than scenic location," be sure to use your digital camera to take pictures of the "scenic view." Don't take spoiler pictures, but make an accurate survey of the area. Post your "scenic pics" on the cache page along with your found it log, or with your posted note.

 

Ever noticed that 99% of this type of cache never has a picture gallery? It's time to break that cycle.

 

These pictures are for the benefit of us cachers who use the picture galleries to asses the merits of this type of cache. You are helping your fellow geocacher.

I took these pics at just such a cache.

[+TrailGators]

I encourage all the cachers who dislike CPCs/ LPCs to do the following:

 

If you come upon a cache that fits the description of a CPC/LPC, and it is located in a "less than scenic location," be sure to use your digital camera to take pictures of the "scenic view." Don't take spoiler pictures, but make an accurate survey of the area. Post your "scenic pics" on the cache page along with your found it log, or with your posted note.

 

Ever noticed that 99% of this type of cache never has a picture gallery? It's time to break that cycle.

 

These pictures are for the benefit of us cachers who use the picture galleries to asses the merits of this type of cache. You are helping your fellow geocacher.

I took these pics at just such a cache.

Then they must all be like that.....

[+sbell111]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

[+TrailGators]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

So why do you think that they never post photos all these "happy" people finding caches under lamp posts on the home page?

[Trinity's Crew]

I know what you mean. Look around. There's always SOME wildlife in the area. For instance, birds can be seen just about anywhere. I myself saw a Blue-Vested Greeter at the last LPC I visited.

[+sbell111]

I know what you mean. Look around. There's always SOME wildlife in the area. For instance, birds can be seen just about anywhere. I myself saw a Blue-Vested Greeter at the last LPC I visited.

Wasn't it earlier in this thread that Itold the owl story?

[+sbell111]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

So why do you think that they never post photos all these "happy" people finding caches under lamp posts on the home page?

Why would I care? I don't really see a connection between your post and mine.

Edited March 6, 2007 by sbell111

[+TrailGators]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

So why do you think that they never post photos all these "happy" people finding caches under lamp posts on the home page?

Why would I care? I don't really see a connection between your post and mine.

Maybe you wouldn't care but Groundspeak would care because they want to show the best caching experiences to promote the site. Photos of people lifting up lamp post covers in parking lots would not do a good job promoting the site.

[+sbell111]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

So why do you think that they never post photos all these "happy" people finding caches under lamp posts on the home page?

Why would I care? I don't really see a connection between your post and mine.

Maybe you wouldn't care but Groundspeak would care because they want to show the best caching experiences to promote the site. Photos of people lifting up lamp post covers in parking lots would not do a good job promoting the site.

Again, I'm not sure what your post has to do with mine.

 

Regarding your post, it's a known fact that urban caches have smaller galleries. Further, pictures of the actual cache location are frowned upon. Therefore, it is quite unlikely to find pictures of people lifting skirts. I also suspect that if someone did post spoiler pics, TPTB would go out of their way to not include the spoliers on the home page.

 

I apparently still didn't get your point.

[+tozainamboku]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

So why do you think that they never post photos all these "happy" people finding caches under lamp posts on the home page?

Why would I care? I don't really see a connection between your post and mine.

Maybe you wouldn't care but Groundspeak would care because they want to show the best caching experiences to promote the site. Photos of people lifting up lamp post covers in parking lots would not do a good job promoting the site.

So you're telling me that this guy doesn't look happy

[Trinity's Crew]

I know what you mean. Look around. There's always SOME wildlife in the area. For instance, birds can be seen just about anywhere. I myself saw a Blue-Vested Greeter at the last LPC I visited.

Wasn't it earlier in this thread that Itold the owl story?

 

The whole thread? You want me to read the whole thread before I post my inane, one-liners?

[+TrailGators]

Once a person decides he/she is going to have a good time, he/she will be more likely to notice the little things that make them happy.

So why do you think that they never post photos all these "happy" people finding caches under lamp posts on the home page?

Why would I care? I don't really see a connection between your post and mine.

Maybe you wouldn't care but Groundspeak would care because they want to show the best caching experiences to promote the site. Photos of people lifting up lamp post covers in parking lots would not do a good job promoting the site.

So you're telling me that this guy doesn't look happy

Sbell pointed out that Groundspeak won't post that photo on the home page because then everyone would know where that cache is. So this guy would have to lower the lamp post cover and then take a photo so nobody would know that a cache was under that lamp post.

 

Anyhow, many of the banner photos on the main page are amazing. You need to photograph some awesome places to make it the main page. Many of the photos are taken in absolutely breath taking places. I think they do a great job promoting the site by using photos that show Geocaching at it's best.