Crappy Caches, Crappy Complaints

[+KBI]

If it's any kind of a challenge to locate that cache, then my question would be: how can it be all that "crappy?"

Challenging means it's not crappy? It's easy to create a lame crappy needle in a haystack type of hide.

In my opinion that's usually a contradiction. Needle in a haystack type of hide can be vexing, yes, but they're very addicting -- and VERY satisfying to find and log. Pleasantness of location isn't one of my personal requirements for me to be able to enjoy a cache hunt.

 

You aren't angling for "easy equals lame" are you?

You aren’t actually challenging my personal definition of "lame" are you? For along THAT treacherous road, there be dragons.

[CoyoteRed]

That's not "KBI Twist." That's observation.

How come my BS meter just spiked?

How come you're claiming BS without offering any supporting explanation? Sounds like another drive-by accusation to me.

Um... because the post from which I pulled the quote is "KBI Twist" and not from observation? Like someone elsewhere observed about either you or your brother, take a statement and push it to the extreme, then argue against it as if someone actually said it. Now you're "observing" that folks are saying "My fellow cachers aren't providing me with adequately creative entertainment," and "People aren't caching the way I want them to." Is that really what you're "observing?" If you are it's somewhere else, not here. Why are those statements BS? It's because you're trying to make what is being said into absolutes.

 

It's kind of ridiculous really. If folks weren't pleased with the entertainment value in general as you claim then they wouldn't be playing. Same with "caching the way I want them to" BS. First, it's not about what the individual wants. When there is a concerted effort to move public perception then it's no longer about the individual, but the group. You tactics could be turned around on you and someone could claim "all you want is crappy caches. That's why you defend them so." That would be no more true than what you spout.

 

You claim to defend crappy caches from a "freedom angle," not that I believe it, but that's what you've said. The other side counsel against crappy caches to raise the overall quality of the cache population. It's kind of like you arguing for property rights on the basis of anyone should be able to do anything with their property while the other side argues for property rights of those who don't what to live next to a rat infested equivalent of a junk yard and have their property values destroyed.

[+KBI]

I don't like lame caches....

 

Neither do I.

 

Now if we could only agree which ones those were.

 

There will never be an effective, wholesale, game-wide method available to control crappy (lame) caches, simply because there will never be a consensus definition for words like "crappy" and "lame" as they apply to geocaching.

 

Everyone’s preference is different. Everyone’s definition of “lame” is different. Those who can’t accept that fact seem to be doomed to suffer.

 

 

 

For your consideration, here is one possible example of lame, stolen from Off-Topic:

 

[CoyoteRed]

You aren’t actually challenging my personal definition of "lame" are you?

Why should we argue your personal taste when you'd rather be making blanket statements? You're not attempting to slide from one to another within the same argument are you?

[+KBI]

That's not "KBI Twist." That's observation.

How come my BS meter just spiked?

How come you're claiming BS without offering any supporting explanation? Sounds like another drive-by accusation to me.

Um... because the post from which I pulled the quote is "KBI Twist" and not from observation? Like someone elsewhere observed about either you or your brother, take a statement and push it to the extreme, then argue against it as if someone actually said it. Now you're "observing" that folks are saying "My fellow cachers aren't providing me with adequately creative entertainment," and "People aren't caching the way I want them to." Is that really what you're "observing?" If you are it's somewhere else, not here.

Alrighty then, let’s have a look at one of the more recent rants from one of the more recent Complainers:

 

As far as infringing, you need to understand my story. I have been caching almost 4.5 years now. When I started out it was awesome. I went hiking every weekend and loved it. When we got tired after hiking we'd drive into town and do some easy urbans. We had some very clever hiders around here. I can't tell you how many times we had some great laughs and some great challenges. As time passed we started to see caches popping up all over like rabbits. About that time my caching buddies and I started to notice that many caches looked like they were being placed with no thought or care. In fact, it looked like some people were going around with a pack full of micros and sprinkling them all over the place. We shook our heads and kept caching because there were still a lot of good ones. But more and more of "them" kept appearing. We actually reached the point where we'd point over at the lamp post from the car when we were 200 feet away and drive up to it like a drive-in window. I remember one day, darn near every cache was either an LPC, a guardrail cache or an altoids stuck under a transformer box. Somedays we found hardly any good caches. I kept urban caching but things kept getting worse. Now I don't do much urban caching at all. So is there "infringement there? Who knows? Who cares? Did one type of "fun" need to dominate like that? Could we have had more "variety" and more "creativity?" Now I come to these forums asking for this and I get endless grief from the defenders. I can see that it's hopeless. The fun days of variety and creativity are gone....

In his own words, CR: Someone else’s version of fun is “dominating” over his. Those “lame” hides are “infringing” on his enjoyment of the game. He wants people to cache differently: “Could we have had more "variet and more creativity?" (Nevermind whether the hiders think their caches are plenty varied and creative already.)

 

“I remember one day, darn near every cache was either an LPC, a guardrail cache or an altoids stuck under a transformer box. Somedays we found hardly any good caches.” A personal definition of “good” being applied as if everyone else should automatically agree.

 

Again, my interpretation: "My fellow cachers aren't providing me with adequately creative entertainment," and "People aren't caching the way I want them to." Please tell me how my personal impression of that rant is wrong, CR.

 

It's kind of ridiculous really. If folks weren't pleased with the entertainment value in general as you claim then they wouldn't be playing.

They DO keep playing. They just choose to complain while they’re playing. Don’t ask me why, I don’t understand it.

 

Same with "caching the way I want them to" BS. First, it's not about what the individual wants. When there is a concerted effort to move public perception then it's no longer about the individual, but the group.

Now THERE’S a bunch of BS. Geocaching IS all about the individual. Where does it say I should get approval from any group before I decide exactly how exciting or cool my hide will be? I hide my hides as I please, as long as they comply with the guidelines. My creativity, or lack of it, doesn’t have to please you -- or some creativity committee -- in order for the cache to be allowed to stay. You can easily avoid it if you don't like it..

 

You tell me people aren’t asking me to play their way, and then you tell me they ARE? Make up your mind please.

 

The other side counsel against crappy caches to raise the overall quality of the cache population. It's kind of like you arguing for property rights on the basis of anyone should be able to do anything with their property while the other side argues for property rights of those who don't what to live next to a rat infested equivalent of a junk yard and have their property values destroyed.

Bad analogy:

• Caches you don’t like are easily avoided. Your neighbor’s junky yard is not.
  
• The issue here is creativity, not practical issues. If you want to argue that some caches are a health hazard, please start an appropriate thread and take your discussion there..
  

You tactics could be turned around on you and someone could claim "all you want is crappy caches. That's why you defend them so." That would be no more true than what you spout.

Saying that "all KBI wants is crappy caches" is a lie. I’ve never said that. You've made that claim before. I invited you to link me to the evidence. You didn’t.

 

Now you’re clearly doing what you just incorrectly accused me of doing: “take a statement and push it to the extreme, then argue against it as if someone actually said it.”

 

You claim to defend crappy caches from a "freedom angle," not that I believe it …

You said that before as well. You're accusing me of lying.

 

Now I’m going to have to ask you to PROVE that I’m being dishonest about my principles. If you can't, you will need to apologize for challenging them. I will not continue to debate anyone who accuses me of making up my position for the purpose of trolling. What would be the point? All I have to do is make the same accusation about you, then everything else YOU have to say is worthless, right?

 

I've never acused you of lying, CR. Either prove your wild accusation, or apologize.

Edited April 21, 2007 by KBI

[+TrailGators]

I don't like lame caches....

 

Neither do I.

 

Now if we could only agree which ones those were.

 

There will never be an effective, wholesale, game-wide method available to control crappy (lame) caches, simply because there will never be a consensus definition for words like "crappy" and "lame" as they apply to geocaching.

 

Everyone's preference is different. Everyone's definition of "lame" is different. Those who can't accept that fact seem to be doomed to suffer.

Not true at all. We can ignore all the caches of the people whose styles are vastly different than ours!

[+tozainamboku]

I don't like lame caches....

 

Neither do I.

 

Now if we could only agree which ones those were.

 

I bet there's some common ground...

That is the common ground.

 

We Defenders agree with you that some caches aren't very creative and that we don't care for lame ones either, but the difference is that, for us, it ends there. We don't cause ourselves (or others) any further consternation over the matter. We shrug our shoulders and move on. We cache happy, and see no reason to gripe.

I'm not sure that the defenders couldn't have more common ground with the complainers. People are within their rights to explain which caches they like or dislike and why. They are within their rights to try to find ways to encourage hiders to place "better" caches. They are within their rights to ask for ways to reduce the number of "lame" caches that they would go looking for and to increase the number of caches they enjoy in their cache hunts. The difference between the complainers and the defenders comes down to accepting that some people enjoy finding some of these caches, that different people cache for different reasons, and that people have a right to hide the caches they like to find (just like someone would have the right to eat sauerkraut ice cream if he likes that). Methods exist to increase the odds you will not be disappointed because you found too many lame caches on your cache outing. The complainers say this is not good enough, the defenders say anything more would amount to a ban on "lame" caches. They will be and have always been some lame caches. The defenders accept this, the complainers don't.

[+TrailGators]

I don't like lame caches....

 

Neither do I.

 

Now if we could only agree which ones those were.

 

I bet there's some common ground...

That is the common ground.

 

We Defenders agree with you that some caches aren't very creative and that we don't care for lame ones either, but the difference is that, for us, it ends there. We don't cause ourselves (or others) any further consternation over the matter. We shrug our shoulders and move on. We cache happy, and see no reason to gripe.

I'm not sure that the defenders couldn't have more common ground with the complainers. People are within their rights to explain which caches they like or dislike and why. They are within their rights to try to find ways to encourage hiders to place "better" caches. They are within their rights to ask for ways to reduce the number of "lame" caches that they would go looking for and to increase the number of caches they enjoy in their cache hunts. The difference between the complainers and the defenders comes down to accepting that some people enjoy finding some of these caches, that different people cache for different reasons, and that people have a right to hide the caches they like to find (just like someone would have the right to eat sauerkraut ice cream if he likes that).

I agree. I wish we would work together on our common ground. We might even be productive. So maybe the defenders could help us get a enhancement to the site that will benefit all cachers whose styles vary as much as their caches vary?

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

Now THERE’S a bunch of BS. Geocaching IS all about the individual. Where does it say I should get approval from any group before I decide exactly how exciting or cool my hide will be? I hide my hides as I please, as long as they comply with the guidelines. My creativity, or lack of it, doesn’t have to please you -- or some creativity committee -- in order for the cache to be allowed to stay. You can easily avoid it if you don't like it..

 

I just don't see how folks can view geocaching as a purely "individual" activity. Nothing further from the truth. From Snoogan's Tree of Angst thread:

 

The fact of the matter is, as much as we like to say "you play your game and I'll play mine", geocaching at it's core is a symbiotic activity. The hider needs the finder and the other way around. I'm often surprised when I read cache hiders talk about "my cache". I consider hiding a cache as a public service, for the pleasure of other cachers. I consider a good log as a thanks to the cache hider. But that's just me.

When you think about it, so many of the actions in geocaching can affect others, ESPECIALLY if a person is already prone to being angst-filled. A cache hider can hide a leaky film cannister behind a dumpster, that affects unsuspecting finders. A finder can leave a "TNLNSL" log on a cache, and that can affect a cache owner. A TB finder can hold onto a bug too long, which can affect the TB owner. The TB owner can send annoying emails to TB finders after they've held them for 3 days, thus affecting the TB finder.

 

Do I think any of these actions SHOULD affect people? No, and I think it's silly when folks actually allow themselves to be bothered by a leisure-time activity. But you wanted to discuss what causes angst in those who allow themselves to feel it, and I think it stems from people being unaware that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people.

 

The very best cache hiders that I know don't hide caches for themselves. They hide them for other people. I believe not thinking at all about what cache seekers will think about your caches is the root cause of "lame" caches, regardless of what your definition of "lame" is.

 

But everyone has the right to have the attitude regarding hiding caches that you do. ("My creativity, or lack of it, doesn’t have to please you -- or some creativity committee -- in order for the cache to be allowed to stay. You can easily avoid it if you don't like it)

 

And I have the right to complain about it if I so choose. I won't argue to take your right away if you won't argue to take mine away.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Googling Hrpty Hrrs

[Clan Riffster]

Accuracy? Let's talk about accuracy:

Yes, let's do. At a glance, I've pulled the following typical KBI exaggerations from your post:

endless

At last count, I saw two active, (front page), threads out of bunches where folks were expressing their discontent. That hardly qualifies as endless. Perhaps you'd like it to end? A simple call for censorship of those you disagree with might accomplish that goal. Or not.

whine

We've already established that it's not whining.

wrong for enjoying certain caches

No one claimed folks who enjoy lame caches were wrong.

they need to be counseled

No one claimed anyone needed counseling

how unreasonably inconvenient those caches are to ignore

No one made this claim. They have, however, mentioned that using the available tools was inconvenient, and offer solutions to make the process more convenient. This is what I call being solution oriented.

geocaching is supposed to somehow substitute as a tour guide

No one made that claim. What some have said was we believe Groundspeak's motto, "The Language of Location" refers to places more interesting than sweltering parking lots.

misguided interlopers

No one made that claim.

impossible to enjoy

No one made that claim. In fact, the loudest complainers have all mentioned that the game is still quite enjoyable.

 

This is what I commonly refer to as The KBI Twist. Seven blatant exaggerations in one short paragraph. You see a statement that you disagree with. Rather than focus on the actual words in the statement, you feel some compelling need to exaggerate what the other person says. It is inherently dishonest, and typically a violation of debating rules, reminiscent of asking your debating oponent, "Do you still beat your spouse?" Once you heap exaggerations upon a subject, there is no simple way to answer, which is why some opt not to.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[Clan Riffster]

As far as infringing, you need to A personal definition of “good” being applied as if everyone else should automatically agree.

Typical KBI twist: He never claimed anyone should agree. He posted his opinion. If you agree, great. If you don't, great. By exaggerating his position to the extreme, you serve only to demonetize him, which, while an often effective, yet immoral debating tool, when done publicly, reduces your own credibility.

 

Saying that "all KBI wants is crappy caches" is a lie.

But that's not what he said. What he said was, "someone could claim "all you want is crappy caches. That's why you defend them so." That would be no more true than what you spout." There is a huge difference between the two statements. Another typical KBI twist. You took a rather simple statement, and pushed it to the extreme, claiming an injustice which never occurred. CR even mentioned in his statement that this particular position was not true. Changing his statement to fit the your need for confrontation accomplishes little.

 

You said that before as well. You're accusing me of lying.

No, what he said was, he didn't buy your claim. That's not nearly as strong as accusing someone of lying. Once again, the KBI twist machine has struck.

 

They will be and have always been some lame caches. The defenders accept this, the complainers don't.

I'm a complainer. I accept as fact that there will always be uninspired caches. I think TG would qualify as a complainer as referenced here, yet he seems to accept as fact that there will always be uninspired caches. The stereotype doesn't fit very well.

 

The very best cache hiders that I know don't hide caches for themselves. They hide them for other people.

Bingo! We have a winner!

Edited April 21, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[CoyoteRed]

You claim to defend crappy caches from a "freedom angle," not that I believe it …

You said that before as well. You're accusing me of lying.

 

Now I’m going to have to ask you to PROVE that I’m being dishonest about my principles. If you can't, you will need to apologize for challenging them. I will not continue to debate anyone who accuses me of making up my position for the purpose of trolling. What would be the point? All I have to do is make the same accusation about you, then everything else YOU have to say is worthless, right?

 

I've never acused you of lying, CR. Either prove your wild accusation, or apologize.

Here's yet another example of taking a statement and pushing it further than it was intended.

 

I do suppose you're going to say me calling you a liar--which I didn't do--is the same as you not convincing me you are telling the truth--which is what I said. I can't remember, was it you or your brother that sent me the PM telling me the reason you or he got into these conversations was merely to "call you (meaning me) on your BS." To paraphrase, "I argue to put you in your place because of your domineering attitude." Too bad the PM quota is so small that I couldn't save it or I could quote you, or him, verbatim. Sounds more like the way bullies like to get into fights as a form of entertainment rather than actually defending something.

 

Additionally, considering the tactics you use in an argument I can't help but think your public reasons are equally less than genuine. There are fine examples in this very thread. It's kind of hard to separate your arguments from your stated intentions. It's your own fault I'm having a hard time believing what you say.

 

Here's the latest in the very same post:

 

You tactics could be turned around on you and someone could claim "all you want is crappy caches. That's why you defend them so." That would be no more true than what you spout.

Saying that "all KBI wants is crappy caches" is a lie. I’ve never said that. You've made that claim before. I invited you to link me to the evidence. You didn’t.

 

Now you’re clearly doing what you just incorrectly accused me of doing: “take a statement and push it to the extreme, then argue against it as if someone actually said it.”

Like, Duh! I'm sure you're the only person who missed the meaning of what I had to make bold here for you.

 

Because you intentionally took the statement out of context and twisted, I simply find it hard to believe anything you say. Why should I?

[+krisandmel]

I guess my opinion is that if it seems like spew, it's a bad cache.

 

There is a well known, very active, and highly respected cacher in MN (KB) that has over a thousand HIDES.

 

I've found several of them, and one "series" in particular is kinda lame, IMO.

 

They are small margarine containers in a 1 qt ziplock, the GC# is in permanent ink on the lid, and inside there is only a roll of register tape and a golf pencil.

 

These are usually about 600 feet apart and are jammed in the V's of trees with barely a stick to cover them up.

Many are visible from 50+ feet away.

 

Oh, this "series" is located along a very picturesque section of the Mississippi river with skyline views in the backround.

 

My assessment:

The containers are not rugged and will not last.

Each one is the same and doesn't show you anything different or unique.

The hides are poorly executed and likely to be muggled in short order.

They take up space where in my opinion, better (and I know that is very subjective) caches could be hidden.

 

Like I said, I've found a few of these, and I may complete the series, but only because it's something to do while my wife is in class and I'm killing time.

They are easy, not much of a challenge, and do get me out in the fresh air, so I can't complain too much, but they are a bit disappointing.

 

[shrug]~k[/shrug]

Edited April 21, 2007 by krisandmel

[+KBI]

Accuracy? Let's talk about accuracy:

Yes, let's do. At a glance, I've pulled the following typical KBI exaggerations from your post:

endless

At last count, I saw two active, (front page), threads out of bunches where folks were expressing their discontent. That hardly qualifies as endless.

Then when do you predict the Complaining will end? I’ve seen no sign of it letting up.

 

Why do you suppose there are only two active Complainer threads on the front page, Riff? What do the Moderators do when more than one thread exists on the same topic? There have been DOZENS and DOZENS of threads on this subject. The fact that there are two active Complainer threads in the front page alone is a STRONG indicator of the volume of discontent among the Complainers. When these two threads die ot get locked others will pop up almost immediately. I'd say that qualifies as endless. No end in sight.

 

whine

We've already established that it's not whining.

*I’ve* already established that it IS whining. In my opinion that is the best word to describe it. If you tell me it is night time, yet I see the sun directly over my head, I’m probably more inclined to believe my own perceptions than to trust you. Sorry.

 

wrong for enjoying certain caches

No one claimed folks who enjoy lame caches were wrong.

Good. No reason to try to fix what’s not broken then, right? No need to “counsel” folks to modify their cache hides, right? No need to even “lead by example” when there’s nothing out there that needs changing, right? No need for you to complain anymore -- everyone is already caching correctly.

 

they need to be counseled

No one claimed anyone needed counseling.

CoyoteRed has. Several times.

 

how unreasonably inconvenient those caches are to ignore

No one made this claim.

TrailGators has made it very clear that he believes the caches he doesn’t like are unreasonably inconvenient to ignore. Others have echoed his opinion.

 

geocaching is supposed to somehow substitute as a tour guide

No one made that claim.

CoyoteRed, BrianSnat ...

 

misguided interlopers

No one made that claim.

I didn't say it was a claim. That is my characterization of the arguments of the Complainers, not a quote. I never said it was a quote. Those who Complain about all the newbies coming into the game “spewing micros,” and that they need to be "counseled" or "educated," inspired my wording. It is not an exaggeration.

 

impossible to enjoy

No one made that claim. In fact, the loudest complainers have all mentioned that the game is still quite enjoyable.

A fair criticism. I believe “frustratingly difficult to enjoy” would have been a more accurate expression of the Complaining I’ve been hearing. I'll concede that one. I was in a hurry.

 

This is what I commonly refer to as The KBI Twist. Seven blatant exaggerations in one short paragraph.

Try “one accidental exaggeration due to KBI typing too fast.”

[+KBI]

It's kind of hard to separate your arguments from your stated intentions. It's your own fault I'm having a hard time believing what you say.

 

Here's the latest in the very same post:

 

You tactics could be turned around on you and someone could claim "all you want is crappy caches. That's why you defend them so." That would be no more true than what you spout.

Saying that "all KBI wants is crappy caches" is a lie. I’ve never said that. You've made that claim before. I invited you to link me to the evidence. You didn’t.

 

Now you’re clearly doing what you just incorrectly accused me of doing: “take a statement and push it to the extreme, then argue against it as if someone actually said it.”

Like, Duh! I'm sure you're the only person who missed the meaning of what I had to make bold here for you.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

Did I also misunderstand it when you said the same thing in this post?

You're back to claiming that people are not enjoyng those skirt lifter hides?

Face it. You're simply arguing for lower quality experiences for reasons known only to you. While you do recognize a growing segment of the caching community is concerned with the growth of less-than-satisfying cache you would rather argue for it. I'm not sure anyone believes you when you claim to be only defending the right of folks to place anything they want.

Read your bolded words. I’ve never “argued for lower quality experiences.” I’ve never “argued for less-than-satisfying caches.”

 

You even said it yourself once when correctly paraphrasing my position: I don’t PROMOTE lame hides; I DEFEND them. Remember? I liked the way you phrased that – it was spot-on, and much more eloquent and concise than anything I’ve been able to come up with on my own.

 

That post is CR doing what CR incorrectly accused KBI of doing: “take a statement and push it to the extreme, then argue against it as if someone actually said it.”

 

The italicized words are to also indicate where you challenged my honesty in that thread.

[+TrailGators]

how unreasonably inconvenient those caches are to ignore

No one made this claim.

TrailGators has made it very clear that he believes the caches he doesn't like are unreasonably inconvenient to ignore. Others have echoed his opinion.

I never said this nor did anyone else. What was said that most times you can't tell if a cache is lame until it's too late and you are already there. KBI quit whining about us voicing our opinions...

[+KBI]

You claim to defend crappy caches from a "freedom angle," not that I believe it …

You said that before as well. You're accusing me of lying.

 

Now I’m going to have to ask you to PROVE that I’m being dishonest about my principles. If you can't, you will need to apologize for challenging them. I will not continue to debate anyone who accuses me of making up my position for the purpose of trolling. What would be the point? All I have to do is make the same accusation about you, then everything else YOU have to say is worthless, right?

 

I've never accused you of lying, CR. Either prove your wild accusation, or apologize.

Here's yet another example of taking a statement and pushing it further than it was intended.

 

I do suppose you're going to say me calling you a liar--which I didn't do--is the same as you not convincing me you are telling the truth--which is what I said.

The two are the same as far as I’m concerned, yes. You challenged whether I was telling the truth. Tell truth = truth. Not tell truth = lie.

 

How about this: Now I’m going to have to ask you to PROVE that I’m not telling you the truth about my principles. If you can't, you will need to apologize for challenging them.

 

You made it very clear that you don’t believe my arguments are based on things I truly believe. I pointed out that it would be a waste of time for me to continue debating with anyone who thinks I’m making stuff up, as a troll would, just to stir the pot. I argue from a position of strongly held principles, CR. If you are not convinced that that is what I am doing, then we are DONE. Why bother?

 

I can't remember, was it you or your brother that sent me the PM telling me the reason you or he got into these conversations was merely to "call you (meaning me) on your BS." To paraphrase, "I argue to put you in your place because of your domineering attitude."

Nope, never said that. Good try, though.

 

Too bad the PM quota is so small that I couldn't save it or I could quote you, or him, verbatim.

Yeah, too bad. And I like the double-yet-undefendable accusation. Nice touch.

 

Sounds more like the way bullies like to get into fights as a form of entertainment rather than actually defending something.

Instead of apologizing, CR questions KBI’s honesty yet again.

 

Additionally, considering the tactics you use in an argument I can't help but think your public reasons are equally less than genuine.

Instead of apologizing, CR questions KBI’s honesty one more time.

 

This is the last response you will get from me until after you apologize.

[+KBI]

how unreasonably inconvenient those caches are to ignore

No one made this claim.

TrailGators has made it very clear that he believes the caches he doesn't like are unreasonably inconvenient to ignore. Others have echoed his opinion.

I never said this nor did anyone else.

You made it the theme of this thread. I'm not going to quote the entire thread -- one need only follow the link and read the thread to hear you listing all the reasons why the caches you don't like are unreasonably inconvenient for you to ignore.

[+TrailGators]

how unreasonably inconvenient those caches are to ignore

No one made this claim.

TrailGators has made it very clear that he believes the caches he doesn't like are unreasonably inconvenient to ignore. Others have echoed his opinion.

I never said this nor did anyone else.

You made it the theme of this thread. I'm not going to quote the entire thread -- one need only follow the link and read the thread to hear you listing all the reasons why the caches you don't like are unreasonably inconvenient for you to ignore.

You won't go through one thread, but you suggested they we go through hundreds of cache pages trying to figure out if they are lame or not.....What you suggested was a complete waste of time.

[Clan Riffster]

endless

Then when do you predict the Complaining will end?

Why would I need to predict anything? KBI Twist # 1

 

No one claimed folks who enjoy lame caches were wrong.

Good. No reason to try to fix what’s not broken then, right?

KBI Twist # 2. Did I say it was not broken?

 

No need to “counsel” folks to modify their cache hides, right?

KBI Twist # 3

 

No need to even “lead by example” when there’s nothing out there that needs changing, right?

KBI Twist # 4

 

No need for you to complain anymore

KBI Twist # 5

 

Try “one accidental exaggeration due to KBI typing too fast.”

Heck, I'm up to 5 on just that little bit.

[Clan Riffster]

I'd say that qualifies as endless.

I'd say your constant twisting, stretching and exaggerating the positions of the complainers has done more to keep these threads alive than anything else. While I recognize that you use this tactic deliberately and knowingly, for the sole purpose of continuing to argue, others may not. Physician, heal thyself.

 

I’ve already established that it IS whining. In my opinion that is the best word to describe it.

Ahhh.... A breakthrough.

 

Why do you suppose there are only two active Complainer threads on the front page, Riff?

Uh... Because geocachers are an amazingly diverse group with many different conversational needs and wants?

 

What do the Moderators do when more than one thread exists on the same topic?

Just a guess, but I'd say they close the duplicate topic. Which begs the question; If there really are countless hordes of complainer threads popping up willy nilly, why isn't the front page littered with their "X"ed out corpses?

 

The fact that there are two active Complainer threads in the front page alone is a STRONG indicator of the volume of discontent among the Complainers.

Two threads out of 50 is a STRONG indicator? That's what.... 4% of the total? What would 8% be? Really, Really STRONG?

[Clan Riffster]

impossible to enjoy

No one made that claim. In fact, the loudest complainers have all mentioned that the game is still quite enjoyable.

A fair criticism. I believe “frustratingly difficult to enjoy” would have been a more accurate expression of the Complaining I’ve been hearing.

I believe that “frustratingly difficult to enjoy” is yet another KBI Twist. Take a good look at the most vocal opponents of lameness. All have told you numerous times that they are having a blast playing this game. I know that publicly acknowledging that particular truth might be painful for you, but it would certainly help your credibility.

[+KBI]

endless

Then when do you predict the Complaining will end?

Why would I need to predict anything? KBI Twist # 1

 

No one claimed folks who enjoy lame caches were wrong.

Good. No reason to try to fix what’s not broken then, right?

KBI Twist # 2. Did I say it was not broken?

 

No need to “counsel” folks to modify their cache hides, right?

KBI Twist # 3

 

No need to even “lead by example” when there’s nothing out there that needs changing, right?

KBI Twist # 4

 

No need for you to complain anymore

KBI Twist # 5

 

Try “one accidental exaggeration due to KBI typing too fast.”

Heck, I'm up to 5 on just that little bit.

No need to counter anything with logic when you can simply call them "twists" without explanation? I'd say that qualifies as a "Can Riffster Twist."

[+KBI]

I'd say that qualifies as endless.

I'd say your constant twisting, stretching and exaggerating the positions of the complainers has done more to keep these threads alive than anything else. While I recognize that you use this tactic deliberately and knowingly, for the sole purpose of continuing to argue, others may not. Physician, heal thyself.

 

I’ve already established that it IS whining. In my opinion that is the best word to describe it.

Ahhh.... A breakthrough.

 

Why do you suppose there are only two active Complainer threads on the front page, Riff?

Uh... Because geocachers are an amazingly diverse group with many different conversational needs and wants?

 

What do the Moderators do when more than one thread exists on the same topic?

Just a guess, but I'd say they close the duplicate topic. Which begs the question; If there really are countless hordes of complainer threads popping up willy nilly, why isn't the front page littered with their "X"ed out corpses?

 

The fact that there are two active Complainer threads in the front page alone is a STRONG indicator of the volume of discontent among the Complainers.

Two threads out of 50 is a STRONG indicator? That's what.... 4% of the total? What would 8% be? Really, Really STRONG?

Here's another "twist" for you: I really don't think you understood the point of any of that. You seem to be trying too hard.

[+KBI]

impossible to enjoy

No one made that claim. In fact, the loudest complainers have all mentioned that the game is still quite enjoyable.

A fair criticism. I believe “frustratingly difficult to enjoy” would have been a more accurate expression of the Complaining I’ve been hearing.

I believe that “frustratingly difficult to enjoy” is yet another KBI Twist. Take a good look at the most vocal opponents of lameness. All have told you numerous times that they are having a blast playing this game.

Speak for yourself. If you're having a blast, that's good. I really wish you were right when you say the others are having a blast as well, but that's not what I read from them in the forums.

[vtmtnman]

No need to counter anything with logic when you can simply call them "twists" without explanation? I'd say that qualifies as a "Can Riffster Twist."

 

Ouch....

Edited April 22, 2007 by vtmtnman

[CoyoteRed]

This is the last response you will get from me until after you apologize.

Fine by me, especially considering I don't see why I should apologize for you failing to convince me you're not being disingenuous. Less twisting of my arguments and words by at least one party. Just don't get upset when I comment on some of your statements in the future.

[+KBI]

Hey Tweedledum & Tweedledee;

 

Maybe we should add this new bit of questionable logic to your list of "Crappy Complaints:” Continuing to debate a person even after one has backed oneself into a corner by essentially claiming that the other person is a troll.

[Clan Riffster]

No need to counter anything with logic when you can simply call them twists without explanation?

I explained myself earlier in this thread. Sorry if you missed that. Ergo, these statements are not twists of the traditional KBI variety. As previously mentioned, a KBI Twist is when someone takes a reasonably ambiguous statement, and exaggerates aspects of that statement to the extreme, then demands that his opponent react to the newly exaggerated topic. It is petty and churlish, and only makes you look bad, since everybody else reading along sees what you are doing.

 

What's saddest about your twisting is that it's unnecessary. You have a strong and reasonable argument, if you'd just stick to it. While I disagree with your initial premise, I certainly respect it. Where you lose any semblance of credibility is when you drift away from your position of strength to twist other people's words, simply for the sake of continuing to beat a dead horse. You recognize that, were you to simply state your position, while TG, CR and myself stated our's, this debate would only last about half a page. That is not enough to satisfy whatever it is that compels you to argue, so you do what you're best at and twist.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[Clan Riffster]

Here's another "twist" for you: I really don't think you understood the point of any of that. You seem to be trying too hard.

Which parts didn't I understand? Your continued twisting, your question about why there are only 2 out of 50 posts dealing with lame cache complaints, your question about duplicate topics or your interpretation of STRONG? If you'll point me to the area of my misunderstanding, I'll try and do better. (Oh, BTW, you're right. It is another KBI Twist)

[Clan Riffster]

I really wish you were right when you say the others are having a blast as well, but that's not what I read from them in the forums.

Another typical KBI Twist? Perhaps. I've stated multiple times that I am thoroughly enjoying this game. TG and CR both claim to enjoy this game. Who else is arguing against lameness? Perhaps we should address these others individually?

[+TrailGators]

I really wish you were right when you say the others are having a blast as well, but that's not what I read from them in the forums.

Another typical KBI Twist? Perhaps. I've stated multiple times that I am thoroughly enjoying this game. TG and CR both claim to enjoy this game. Who else is arguing against lameness? Perhaps we should address these others individually?

Definite twist! I've always enjoyed the game and now I will enjoy it even more since I started ignoring certain caches. I just heard about and ignored three more micros that were hidden in people's front yards this morning. That just raised my future enjoyment level!

[+KBI]

I really wish you were right when you say the others are having a blast as well, but that's not what I read from them in the forums.

Another typical KBI Twist? Perhaps. I've stated multiple times that I am thoroughly enjoying this game. TG and CR both claim to enjoy this game.

Definite twist! I've always enjoyed the game and now I will enjoy it even more since I started ignoring certain caches.

Good to hear it. Glad to know I was wrong.

 

Now that everyone is satisfied with the game again, I look forward to the End To (now unnessecary) Complaining that Clan Riffster predicted.

[+TrailGators]

I really wish you were right when you say the others are having a blast as well, but that's not what I read from them in the forums.

Another typical KBI Twist? Perhaps. I've stated multiple times that I am thoroughly enjoying this game. TG and CR both claim to enjoy this game.

Definite twist! I've always enjoyed the game and now I will enjoy it even more since I started ignoring certain caches.

Good to hear it. Glad to know I was wrong.

 

Now that everyone is satisfied with the game again, I look forward to the End To (now unnessecary) Complaining that Clan Riffster predicted.

As long as some people hide caches in stupid places you will always have complaints. If you don't want any complaints then you need to stop people from hiding caches in stupid places. So I think you are being unrealistic. BTW there are hiding places that almost all us would agree are stupid. Edited April 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

... were you to simply state your position, while TG, CR and myself stated our's, this debate would only last about half a page.

Negative.

 

Here's the standard sequence:

 

(1) Comlainer posts his complaints about the existence of so-called "lame" hides (hides by his fellow players which are viewed as inadequately entertaining), the near impossibility of avoiding them, the poor and improper gamesmanship of those who hide them, and the need to Do Something About The Problem.

 

(2) Defender points out that it is only a game, that the Complainer need only avoid the hides he doesn't like, presents methods for doing so, that it is unreasonable to expect special consideration because no one’s preference outweighs anyone else's, and explains that not everyone agrees with the assessment of "lame" that has been assigned by a Complainer in the first place.

 

(3) Complainer becomes defensive and begins to attack the Defender's opinions, his caching preference, and sometimes his very integrity, and the debate is on ...

[+TrailGators]

... were you to simply state your position, while TG, CR and myself stated our's, this debate would only last about half a page.

Negative.

 

Here's the standard sequence:

 

(1) Comlainer posts his complaints about the existence of so-called "lame" hides (hides by his fellow players which are viewed as inadequately entertaining), the near impossibility of avoiding them, the poor and improper gamesmanship of those who hide them, and the need to Do Something About The Problem.

 

(2) Defender points out that it is only a game, that the Complainer need only avoid the hides he doesn't like, presents methods for doing so, that it is unreasonable to expect special consideration because no one's preference outweighs anyone else's, and explains that not everyone agrees with the assessment of "lame" that has been assigned by a Complainer in the first place.

 

(3) Complainer becomes defensive and begins to attack the Defender's opinions, his caching preference, and sometimes his very integrity, and the debate is on ...

You just did it AGAIN!

1) "So called "lame" hides?" You've already admitted several times that lame caches exist...

2) Your proposed method for avoiding them is NG. This has been stated over and over but maybe this time it will sink in....

3) Defenders constantly twists everything we say.....So stop doing this and start posting truthful statements of our position.

Edited April 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

Here's another "twist" for you: I really don't think you understood the point of any of that. You seem to be trying too hard.

Which parts didn't I understand? Your continued twisting, your question about why there are only 2 out of 50 posts dealing with lame cache complaints, your question about duplicate topics or your interpretation of STRONG? If you'll point me to the area of my misunderstanding, I'll try and do better. (Oh, BTW, you're right. It is another KBI Twist)

You've conveniently changed your own wording. In your original post ...

Two threads out of 50 is a STRONG indicator? That's what.... 4% of the total? What would 8% be? Really, Really STRONG?

... you said "threads," not "posts."

 

Two hot-topic threads on one subject, out of fifty threads, is a LOT of complaining, Riff. even if there were 50 out of 50 threads dealing with lame cache complaints, the moderators would shut down 49 of them. What part of that don't you get???

 

Don’t backpedal please. That’s not your style. Or should I call that a "Clan Riffster Self-Twist?"

 

I stand by my definition of “endless:”

Accuracy? Let's talk about accuracy:

Yes, let's do. At a glance, I've pulled the following typical KBI exaggerations from your post:

endless

At last count, I saw two active, (front page), threads out of bunches where folks were expressing their discontent. That hardly qualifies as endless.

Then when do you predict the Complaining will end? I’ve seen no sign of it letting up.

 

Why do you suppose there are only two active Complainer threads on the front page, Riff? What do the Moderators do when more than one thread exists on the same topic? There have been DOZENS and DOZENS of threads on this subject. The fact that there are two active Complainer threads in the front page alone is a STRONG indicator of the volume of discontent among the Complainers. When these two threads die ot get locked others will pop up almost immediately. I'd say that qualifies as endless. No end in sight.

... and still no end in sight to the complaining.

[+KBI]

1) "So called "lame" hides?" You've already admitted several times that lame caches exist...

"So-called" because your definition is inherently different from mine. I demand much less from a cache hide than you do in order to be able to enjoy it. (I am tempted to point out that this, sadly, leaves me enjoying the overall game more than you, but I've recently been told that this is an incorrect conclusion to draw from that evidence.)

 

2) Your proposed method for avoiding them is NG. This has been stated over and over but maybe this time it will sink in....

It may be NG for you, but it's plenty G for me. You've rejected every other suggested solution as well. I'd say that indicates the problem lies with you, not the caches.

 

3) Defenders constantly twists everything we say.....So stop doing this and start posting truthful statements of our position.

You're always welcome to post your own truthful statement of your position. I'm not stopping you.

[+TrailGators]

Here's another "twist" for you: I really don't think you understood the point of any of that. You seem to be trying too hard.

Which parts didn't I understand? Your continued twisting, your question about why there are only 2 out of 50 posts dealing with lame cache complaints, your question about duplicate topics or your interpretation of STRONG? If you'll point me to the area of my misunderstanding, I'll try and do better. (Oh, BTW, you're right. It is another KBI Twist)

You've conveniently changed your own wording. In your original post ...

Two threads out of 50 is a STRONG indicator? That's what.... 4% of the total? What would 8% be? Really, Really STRONG?

... you said "threads," not "posts."

 

Two hot-topic threads on one subject, out of fifty threads, is a LOT of complaining, Riff. even if there were 50 out of 50 threads dealing with lame cache complaints, the moderators would shut down 49 of them. What part of that don't you get???

 

Don't backpedal please. That's not your style. Or should I call that a "Clan Riffster Self-Twist?"

 

I stand by my definition of "endless:"

Accuracy? Let's talk about accuracy:

Yes, let's do. At a glance, I've pulled the following typical KBI exaggerations from your post:

endless

At last count, I saw two active, (front page), threads out of bunches where folks were expressing their discontent. That hardly qualifies as endless.

Then when do you predict the Complaining will end? I've seen no sign of it letting up.

 

Why do you suppose there are only two active Complainer threads on the front page, Riff? What do the Moderators do when more than one thread exists on the same topic? There have been DOZENS and DOZENS of threads on this subject. The fact that there are two active Complainer threads in the front page alone is a STRONG indicator of the volume of discontent among the Complainers. When these two threads die ot get locked others will pop up almost immediately. I'd say that qualifies as endless. No end in sight.

... and still no end in sight to the complaining.

What the heck do you think that you are you doing?

[+TrailGators]

1) "So called "lame" hides?" You've already admitted several times that lame caches exist...

"So-called" because your definition is inherently different from mine. I demand much less from a cache hide than you do in order to be able to enjoy it. (I am tempted to point out that this, sadly, leaves me enjoying the overall game more than you, but I've recently been told that this is an incorrect conclusion to draw from that evidence.)

You were clearly implying that they don't exist.

 

2) Your proposed method for avoiding them is NG. This has been stated over and over but maybe this time it will sink in....

It may be NG for you, but it's plenty G for me. You've rejected every other suggested solution as well. I'd say that indicates the problem lies with you, not the caches.

That tells me that you haven't suggested anything decent. So if you were to suggest 10 poor ideas which I reject then it's my problem? I have suggested one sound solution that others in another thread like as well. Start a thread with your idea and see what people think....

 

3) Defenders constantly twists everything we say.....So stop doing this and start posting truthful statements of our position.

You're always welcome to post your own truthful statement of your position. I'm not stopping you.

My position is that some people play this game WAY differently than we do and so we need an effective and efficient way to eliminate these caches from our radar. Edited April 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

... and still no end in sight to the complaining.

What the heck do you think that you are you doing?

Pointing out as clearly as I can that there is no rational reason for all your complaining. I want to help Complainers like you learn to accept the game for what it is; that there will always be caches you don't happen to like; that it is boorish to criticize those who hide them, and there is no reason to let those caches bother you.

 

Saying strange and radical things like that always gets me attacked, so I defend myself.

[+TrailGators]

it is boorish to criticize those who hide them, and there is no reason to let those caches bother you.

Yet another twist. So much for you asking me to state my position, just to have you completely ignore it... Edited April 22, 2007 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

1) "So called "lame" hides?" You've already admitted several times that lame caches exist...

"So-called" because your definition is inherently different from mine. I demand much less from a cache hide than you do in order to be able to enjoy it. (I am tempted to point out that this, sadly, leaves me enjoying the overall game more than you, but I've recently been told that this is an incorrect conclusion to draw from that evidence.)

You were clearly implying that they don't exist.

No I wasn't. The qualifier "so-called" applied to the word "lame," not the word "cache." The caches are so-called lame, not the so-called caches are lame. Why would I say the caches don't exist? I'm just saying I don't always agree with your definition of lame.

 

Does that help?

 

2) Your proposed method for avoiding them is NG. This has been stated over and over but maybe this time it will sink in....

It may be NG for you, but it's plenty G for me. You've rejected every other suggested solution as well. I'd say that indicates the problem lies with you, not the caches.

That tells me that you haven't suggested anything decent. So if you were to suggest 10 stupid ideas which I reject then it's my problem?

If you didn't like my method there were others sugested by other people that I thought were great. If you don't like any of them, yet you continue to be dissatisfied with your own, then I'd say: Sadly, yes, that's your problem.

 

3) Defenders constantly twists everything we say.....So stop doing this and start posting truthful statements of our position.

You're always welcome to post your own truthful statement of your position. I'm not stopping you.

My position is that some people play this game WAY differently than we do and so we need an effective and efficient way to eliminate these caches from our radar.

Then I say: Good luck.

[+KBI]

it is boorish to criticize those who hide them, and there is no reason to let those caches bother you.

Yet another twist. So much for you asking me to state my position, just to have you completely ignore it...

Did I say I was talking about you and only you? You quoted me out of context. (Is that a "twist", Riff?)

 

I said I was talking about "Complainers like you." Sadly, you are not the only Complainer. If you are not presently in the habit of criticizing those who hide the caches you don't like, then I applaude you, TG. I look forward to seeing the absence of such boorish criticism in all of your future posts as well.

Edited April 22, 2007 by KBI

[+Western Mass Clan]

 

If I DNF a cache in an area I don't care to return to, I won't "clear" that DNF . . . ever.

 

Their reason for returning to find a cache in a bad location is that they need to "clear" a specific area they have defined. Therefore, they have to find all the caches, which means complaining about the crappy ones they are forced to look for . . .

 

I'm with you. I frequently cache with my kids and if, upon arriving at GZ, I say to myself "No way I'm taking my kids in there." then it is likely off my list for good. In my view, it is already "cleared" even though I'll probably never sign the log. It's "cleared" because it has been moved to my ignore list (which is short, but there are a few on there).

 

My 2 cents.

[+El Diablo]

I don't want new rules or guidelines. Hide what you want. However I will continue to rant about crappy caches and what they have done to this sport/game/hobby.

Thanx for a breath of fresh air, El D!

Pointless whining is fresh air?

 

Just catching up on this thread.

 

KBI, I wasn't whining, as I pointed out, I was stating an opinion. Of course any opinion that differs from yours is usually considered whining. I'm personally greatful whenever you come in these forums and grace the rest of us with your wisdom. Keep up the good work! It makes it so much easier to weed out the intelligent posts from the dribble.

 

El Diablo

[+TrailGators]

I don't want new rules or guidelines. Hide what you want. However I will continue to rant about crappy caches and what they have done to this sport/game/hobby.

Thanx for a breath of fresh air, El D!

Pointless whining is fresh air?

 

Just catching up on this thread.

 

KBI, I wasn't whining, as I pointed out, I was stating an opinion. Of course any opinion that differs from yours is usually considered whining. I'm personally greatful whenever you come in these forums and grace the rest of us with your wisdom. Keep up the good work! It makes it so much easier to weed out the intelligent posts from the dribble.

 

El Diablo

[+TrailGators]

it is boorish to criticize those who hide them, and there is no reason to let those caches bother you.

Yet another twist. So much for you asking me to state my position, just to have you completely ignore it...

Did I say I was talking about you and only you? You quoted me out of context. (Is that a "twist", Riff?)

 

I said I was talking about "Complainers like you." Sadly, you are not the only Complainer. If you are not presently in the habit of criticizing those who hide the caches you don't like, then I applaude you, TG. I look forward to seeing the absence of such boorish criticism in all of your future posts as well.

You are being a hypocrite. You've been completely boorish to us and yet that is somehow acceptable...

[+fizzymagic]

Pointless whining is fresh air?

I'm personally greatful whenever you come in these forums and grace the rest of us with your wisdom. Keep up the good work! It makes it so much easier to weed out the intelligent posts from the dribble.

 

In addition to providing the much-needed drivel, we also get a more or less continuous dose of unintentional irony, which can be quite amusing.

 

Except when it gets repeated again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and....

 

It starts to get a little bit old.

[+KBI]

I don't want new rules or guidelines. Hide what you want. However I will continue to rant about crappy caches and what they have done to this sport/game/hobby.

Thanx for a breath of fresh air, El D!

Pointless whining is fresh air?

Just catching up on this thread.

 

KBI, I wasn't whining, as I pointed out, I was stating an opinion.

My characterization of your comments as whining was my opinion. It is simply my opinion that it is pointless to "continue to rant about crappy caches and what they have done to this sport/game/hobby." That sounds whiny to me.

 

No personal offence was intended.

 

Of course any opinion that differs from yours is usually considered whining.

Inaccurate exaggeration. Some might call it a "twist."

 

I'm personally greatful whenever you come in these forums and grace the rest of us with your wisdom. Keep up the good work! It makes it so much easier to weed out the intelligent posts from the dribble.

No personal offence taken.