An unfortunate risk when logging a DNF

[+KBI]

The subject of logging DNFs has been discussed many times in the past, and I am thoroughly convinced of their value, but I don’t recall seeing this particular point ever having been made:

 

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

 

I’m a slow learner, but I have recently noticed that almost every time I post a DNF to a cache page – even if I make it clear in my log that the cache sounds like a good one and that I intend to continue my attempt to find it – I soon get an unrequested email that reveals way more than I wanted to know about the hide, usually in the form of a complete spoiler. These emails usually come from the cache owner, but sometimes it’s a previous finder doing the unwelcome spoiling.

 

The first few times this happened to me I responded by politely pointing out that one should probably ask first whether more information is desired before one risks ruining an otherwise challenging and satisfying find for another cacher. All of my response emails have been met with silence.

 

I know that the intentions of those doing the spoiling are good – they’re only trying to help me find the cache. The problem is that too many people apparently don’t consider that the person logging the DNF may not yet be ready for any help. The caches I have enjoyed the most are the truly difficult ones that I have nevertheless succeeded in finding all by myself – especially if I could find them without decrypting the hint! If I want a bigger hint, I’ll ask for one.

 

I’m considering adding this extra bit of text to every DNF that I log in the future:

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun, challenging and potentially satisfying cache by emailing me with any unrequested hints or spoilers. I’d like to maintain the option of asking for help ONLY when I want it. Thanks! "

 

 

Opinions?

 

Has anyone else had this problem?

 

Does anyone think my 'solution' is too blunt?

[+seattlegeekgrrrlz]

Wow - I've never had that happen. The most I've had is the offer of a hint from a cache owner, if I want it. On the few occasions I have taken them up on it, it's only been a hint not a total spoiler. Sometimes I wish they would send a spoiler, but that's just the frustration talking.

Edited July 28, 2007 by seattlegeekgrrrlz

[+Miragee]

Hey, I'm not proud. I'll take any hints I can get . . .

 

I DNF'd a cache the other day, then got a friend to go with me to look some more. I spent a long time looking for a Lock 'n Lock container . . . Now, it has been found by someone saying, "Thanks for the cache." No mention of searching high and low with poor accuracy on the GPSr.

 

I will probably beg for a hint before I head back down that way, so I won't embarrass myself logging another DNF on an easy urban cache . . .

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Although I log DNFs religiously and with great care, I have never had this kind of followup event occur in the aftermath of any of my DNFs. And, I do understand your preference not to be burdened with unwanted hints. I think that your proposed DNF log note "tag paragraph" is perfect; clear and firm -- and proactive -- but not at all negative. I wish you the best with using it.

[+J-Way]

I've only had one reply to a DNF (a fairly easy multi), and I do think there was spoiler info involved. The resulting email discussion led to the conclusion that the cache had gone missing.

 

But I agree, I prefer no extra spoilers or other hints unless I'm completely stumped after multiple attempts and I sincerely believe that the cache has gone missing. "Finding" a difficult cache after being told precisely where it is located just isn't very much fun.

[+SeattleSun]

I have gotten unsolicited hints and/or spoilers after logging DNF's in Seattle. Maybe I'm much more pathetic-sounding than you!

 

I don't mind getting them, because with so many caches to find, I don't really enjoy having to visit many of them multiple times. I want to find them and then get to find all the other great caches around here. But I can understand not wanting to get them, too. Sounds like you (OP) may have found a decent solution.

 

Wow - I've never had that happen. The most I've had is the offer of a hint from a cache owner, if I want it. On the few occasions I have taken them up on it, it's only been a hint not a total spoiler. Sometimes I wish they would send a spoiler, but that's just the frustration talking.

[+uxorious]

I have only gotten e-mail in response to two of my DNFs. On one the owner let me know if I wanted more hints, just ask and he would give them.

 

On the other, the owner had a couple DNFs in a row, and was hoping to avoid a long trip out on a logging road to check the cache, if it was OK. (It was a multi, and it turned the first waypoint was still there, but the hint item for it was gone.)

 

I have had a couple muggles, who were aware of a cache near them, point it out to me. However, that's a different thread.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I did get one once. A great, but tough, multi. I misread the cache page, and thought I was looking for the final. Didn't find it, so I DNFed. Two days later I got an e-mail with photos of all the stages from a cacher whom I do not know. Thanks, but if I want help, I'll ask for it.

[+jtbrady01]

Never got an email sent related to a DNF. I have been to an event where I have discussed a DNF with a cache owner and have gotten some additional hints but, never in an email. If they sent one I guess I would accept it. If you don't want it once you start reading it and realize it is a hint you can always delete it.

[+oldnavy59]

Hey, I'm not proud. I'll take any hints I can get . . .

 

I DNF'd a cache the other day, then got a friend to go with me to look some more. I spent a long time looking for a Lock 'n Lock container . . . Now, it has been found by someone saying, "Thanks for the cache." No mention of searching high and low with poor accuracy on the GPSr.

 

I will probably beg for a hint before I head back down that way, so I won't embarrass myself logging another DNF on an easy urban cache . . .

 

I fall in this catergory I log all my DNFs and I have a few, I think I hold the record for the most DNFs on 1/1 caches LOL

[+KBI]

Wow - I've never had that happen.

Although I log DNFs religiously and with great care, I have never had this kind of followup event occur in the aftermath of any of my DNFs.

Maybe I’ve just been super-unlucky. Maybe I just sound pathetic in my logs like a previous poster described.

 

I did get one once. A great, but tough, multi. I misread the cache page, and thought I was looking for the final. Didn't find it, so I DNFed. Two days later I got an e-mail with photos of all the stages from a cacher whom I do not know. Thanks, but if I want help, I'll ask for it.

Exactly.

 

From my very first days of caching it seemed obvious to me that ruining the challenge for another cacher by giving them unrequested help – in other words, spoiling a cache, and therefore their fun – would be poor etiquette.

 

I guess common sense ... isn’t.

 

Never got an email sent related to a DNF. If they sent one I guess I would accept it. If you don't want it once you start reading it and realize it is a hint you can always delete it.

The ones I've gotten start with things like "It's a fake pine cone, second tree, eye level" ... that sort of thing. Sometimes I can hear it coming before the spoilage takes place, other times it is right there up front and the damage is done before I realize it's a spoiler.

 

I'd prefer that they at least start off with a warning that a hint or spoiler is to follow.

 

I've sent hints and spoilers to seekers of my own caches, but ONLY after they are requested, and even then I usually provide two or three hints of varying levels of helpfulness, all encrypted ROT-13, so they can choose how strong of a hint they want to use.

[+dband]

It's not the end of the world. They were just trying to help you.

[+simpjkee]

Yes. This has happened to me 3 times already. I hate it. I do not want hints. Yet 3 times I've logged a DNF and the owners then e-mail blatant hints to me. The first line in my profile used to say "I respectfully request that no hints be given to me.", but 2 of the times were when I had that written so it didnt stop anyone. Future dnf's I will write that I don't want hints.

[+Mudfrog]

I've never had a cache owner or anyone else automatically send me hints or spoilers after a DNF. Now, i have had a few email me saying that they checked on their cache, found that it was indeed missing, and because of this, wanted me to log a "find" on it. I guess this is a nice gesture but it's not something i would ever want to do. I didn't find the cache so i'm sure not going to log it as a find.

[+simpjkee]

had a few email me saying that they checked on their cache, found that it was indeed missing, and because of this, wanted me to log a "find" on it. I guess this is a nice gesture but it's not something i would ever want to do. I didn't find the cache so i'm sure not going to log it as a find.

 

I was kinda in the same boat last week. it was a cache hanging over a canal overpass on a thin wire. I reeled in the wire and on the end was the cache lid, but no cache itself. I logged a maintenance request but I wondered if I should log a find. I decided not to since technically I did not find the cache.

[+fizzymagic]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Nobody is forcing you to read the emails. You play the game your way, and let them play the game their way. If you don't want the spoilers, don't read the email.

 

Seems to me that the problem of knowing ahead of time that an email contains a spoiler is pretty similar to the problem of knowing ahead of time that a cache is lame. Since you apparently have some foolproof method for the latter, I can only assume that the former presents no problem to you.

 

So just don't read the spoiler emails. Just like you tell everyone else to ignore the caches they won't like. Simple, huh?

Edited July 29, 2007 by fizzymagic

[nobby.nobbs]

maybe we should all begin doing our dnf's with either "clue please" or "no clues please" at the end. i've never just given a clue but i would email to ask if they needed any help. then i can either send one or not depending.

[bogleman]

I can see both sides of the fence on this topic; but I do not remember receiving any unsolicited hints/spoilers from owners/friends without asking first.

 

There was one time I've even gone well out of my way to make a noob feel comfortable and confident about finding my cache and that was even before they attempted to find it. I was a little disappointed that they did not follow through on their end but the next finder had a really good time, it was their loss and my gain.

 

I personally do not like hiding hard to find caches, I see it as a maintenance problem if I receive multiple DNF's I feel compelled to check on my hide. I would rather have a hard to get to/easy to find cache so when I get a DNF I can make a decision to check on the cache or not based on the individual log.

 

As for sending unsolicited hints/spoilers I did it a few times when I first started but not any more. I try to provide enough information on the cache page that you should be able to find the cache or know it is gone. I feel this is a good system for me since it reduces my maintenance concerns and reduces the amount of email's that I have to deal with.

[+edscott]

Never happened to me, but I have had cachers ask for a hint in their DNF logs on my caches.

[+Runaround]

 

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

 

 

Wait a minute, I thought everyone was allowed to play the game the way they wanted? The cache owners want to play by sending spoilers. Adding the note would force them to do something they don't want to do and to play the game your way, namely ignore your request. If you don't like a spoiler, don't read it. I think someone in another thread mentioned the importance of doing their homework before seeking a cache and filtering out a spoiler that ruins the hunt certainly falls into that category.

 

The parsing of my post one sentence at a time can now commence.

[Mushtang]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Nobody is forcing you to read the emails. You play the game your way, and let them play the game their way. If you don't want the spoilers, don't read the email.

 

Seems to me that the problem of knowing ahead of time that an email contains a spoiler is pretty similar to the problem of knowing ahead of time that a cache is lame. Since you apparently have some foolproof method for the latter, I can only assume that the former presents no problem to you.

 

So just don't read the spoiler emails. Just like you tell everyone else to ignore the caches they won't like. Simple, huh?

Yes, they are similar. Your logic is truly astounding. And so infallible too.

 

No wait, not infallible. What's that other word? Oh yeah, lame!

 

There are HUGE differences between:

A] caches that have 1) a description, 2) log history, 3) rated difficulty, 4) rated terrain, 5) coordinates that place it on a map, etc., and

B] an email that that has a subject line generated by the web site and a spoiler inside.

 

For the former, you can use a combination of all those things to decide if it seems like a cache you'd expect to be lame or not. For the latter there's nothing to go on before you open it.

 

Simple, huh?

[+jtbrady01]

The first line in my profile used to say "I respectfully request that no hints be given to me.", ......Future dnf's I will write that I don't want hints.

 

I'm not really sure how many people or cache owners really take the time to read the profile information. I know to send you an email they will have to access your profile. But, do they really scroll down or read anything? I guess all they are doing is pressing the link for your email address. I think if you don't want a hint your idea of adding a note to your DNF's is the best thing to do.

 

Again, this doesn't happen around here so you all must have some generous cache owners. On the plus side of things be thankful they are taking the time to read their emails. Try to get an owner to reply to a "needs maintenance" or "needs archived".

[Mushtang]

 

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

 

Wait a minute, I thought everyone was allowed to play the game the way they wanted? The cache owners want to play by sending spoilers. Adding the note would force them to do something they don't want to do and to play the game your way, namely ignore your request. If you don't like a spoiler, don't read it. I think someone in another thread mentioned the importance of doing their homework before seeking a cache and filtering out a spoiler that ruins the hunt certainly falls into that category.

When pirates steal caches it pretty much ruins the game for future searchers of those caches. Do you think KBI would also defend cache pirates as "playing the game the way they wanted"? I doubt he would, let's wait and see if he replies and we'll find out.

 

The parsing of my post one sentence at a time can now commence.

So it's okay when you break down a reply using quotes, but not okay when other people do it?

[Trinity's Crew]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Nobody is forcing you to read the emails. You play the game your way, and let them play the game their way. If you don't want the spoilers, don't read the email.

 

Seems to me that the problem of knowing ahead of time that an email contains a spoiler is pretty similar to the problem of knowing ahead of time that a cache is lame. Since you apparently have some foolproof method for the latter, I can only assume that the former presents no problem to you.

 

So just don't read the spoiler emails. Just like you tell everyone else to ignore the caches they won't like. Simple, huh?

Let's turn this into a "lame" cache debate... a hopelessly subjective argument that "lame" (whatever that means) haters just can't let go of. We haven't had one of those for a while.

[Ghengis Jon]

Lets take the opposite tack of the original thread question. If you've requested a hint, how many times do you even get a response? I travel for work so I get a chance to DNF with little hope of returning for a second attempt quite frequently. I explain this to the cache owner and ask for a hint (or the outright location) so that I might admire (and learn from) his ingenuity. Of 12 or so requests I've received exactly 2 responses.

[+KBI]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Nobody is forcing you to read the emails. You play the game your way, and let them play the game their way. If you don't want the spoilers, don't read the email.

 

Seems to me that the problem of knowing ahead of time that an email contains a spoiler is pretty similar to the problem of knowing ahead of time that a cache is lame. Since you apparently have some foolproof method for the latter, I can only assume that the former presents no problem to you.

 

So just don't read the spoiler emails. Just like you tell everyone else to ignore the caches they won't like. Simple, huh?

Well, Mushtang beat me to it, but I’ll post my response anyway.

 

Do I understand this right – you’re equating potentially disappointing caches with potential cache-spoiling emails? You don’t understand why I can see one coming but not the other?

 

Alrighty then, let’s compare the two and see what kinds of clues are available:

 

Potentially disappointing cache has THESE clues:

- Cache title

- Cache owner

- Cache size

- Short description

- Long description

- Difficulty rating

- Terrain rating

- Entire history of online logging activity complete with comments, compliments and complaints

- Maps, maps and more maps

- Satellite image of cache's surroundings

- View of cache's surroundings as seeker approaches the waypoint

 

Potential cache-spoiler email has THIS clue:

- A subject line that looks something like this: [GEO] FlibbertyJibbet contacting fizzymagic from Geocaching.com

 

Now, PLEASE explain to me how it "seems to [fizzymagic] that the problem of knowing ahead of time that an email contains a spoiler is pretty similar to the problem of knowing ahead of time that a cache is lame."

 

 

If you really want to discuss the subject of “lame micros,” then maybe you should start by (1) choosing appropriate threads, and (2) responding to those who have already attempted to discuss it with you in those appropriate threads. For example, you posted another of your famous drive-by posts here. I responded here. Others responded to you as well. You were asked some very specific questions. You were never heard from again in that thread.

 

I would enjoy debating the merits of complaining about other people’s caching preferences and how oppressive those folks’ simple caches can be for you, Fizzy. Just not in this thread. Start another thread and I’ll join you there.

 

Unless this is just another of your shoot-and-hide drive-bys, in which case: Bye!

[+Trucker Lee]

Haven't had an email spoiler, yet. Hope it doesn't happen. There is one cache that was DNF by the first few seekers, me included, that the owner went back to check on, then redid the page hint. I still haven't found it, but now it has become a challenge not to let the owner get this one over on me.

 

I agree with OP, no help wanted unless I ask for it. That won't happen until I accept defeat, or when I get the snowball concession in Hades.

[+KBI]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Wait a minute, I thought everyone was allowed to play the game the way they wanted? The cache owners want to play by sending spoilers. Adding the note would force them to do something they don't want to do and to play the game your way, namely ignore your request.

I believe that ruining a challenging cache hide for someone by sending them an unsolicited hint or spoiler is poor caching etiquette. You may of course reasonably and fairly disagree with that opinion.

 

Are you also suggesting, however, that the act of hiding the types of caches that many people like, yet that a few others dislike – even if they have the option to avoid them – is equally poor etiquette?

 

In other words: If I hide a cache that you don’t happen to enjoy, does that prevent you from enjoying the game the way you want to play? Does it spoil your fun?

 

Would it not then logically follow from your premise that it is therefore poor etiquette for anyone to ever hide a cache if there is even a remote chance that someone out there won’t enjoy it?

 

Please explain.

 

If you don't like a spoiler, don't read it. I think someone in another thread mentioned the importance of doing their homework before seeking a cache and filtering out a spoiler that ruins the hunt certainly falls into that category.

As I explained, the 'homework' thing is not always an option with emails:

 

Sometimes I can hear it coming before the spoilage takes place, other times it is right there up front and the damage is done before I realize it's a spoiler.

Also please see my response to Fizzymagic.

 

The parsing of my post one sentence at a time can now commence.

How'd I do?

[bogleman]

snip

 

I’m considering adding this extra bit of text to every DNF that I log in the future:

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun, challenging and potentially satisfying cache by emailing me with any unrequested hints or spoilers. I’d like to maintain the option of asking for help ONLY when I want it. Thanks! "

<snip>

Does anyone think my 'solution' is too blunt?

I'd reword your text a bit. In a rush some may jump to conclusions and misread some points.

 

Nice area/or whatever, unfortunately I could not find your cache. I enjoy the challenge of finding the cache on my own, please don't send any spoilers or hints unless I ask for them. Thanks for placing the cache for me to find.

[+KBI]

TO: Fizzymajic, Runaround, and anyone else who is considering turning my thread about DNFs and spoilers into a flame-KBI-because-he-defends-lameness party:

 

Please, flame me all you like in this thread, and PLEASE feel free to bring any perceived inconsistencies in my statements to my attention (I do want to address the points that have been raised once my responses are answered), but if you really want to debate complaining vs. defending of individual hiding styles let’s do it in a more appropriate thread. This thread is about spoilers given in response to DNF logs.

 

That is my request. The Mods might not be as patient.

[+Kabuthunk]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with this situation. Luckly though, it has only happened several times... and mainly when I was still new to geocaching. Like... at about 100 finds, it stopped entirely.

 

But yeah... I've had a few exact directions emailed to me. Only really ticked me off once though... when I was specifically wanting to go back for it, and the email likely caught me off-guard. Generally, I'm pretty good at just... stopping reading and clicking the 'back' button when I notice a spoiler is coming up.

 

Although... what still happens is if I ask a previous finder or the owner for a minor hint about the cache, just to kinda give me a slight shove in the right direction... I'll get a full spoiler instead .

[+KBI]

snip

 

I’m considering adding this extra bit of text to every DNF that I log in the future:

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun, challenging and potentially satisfying cache by emailing me with any unrequested hints or spoilers. I’d like to maintain the option of asking for help ONLY when I want it. Thanks! "

<snip>

Does anyone think my 'solution' is too blunt?

I'd reword your text a bit. In a rush some may jump to conclusions and misread some points.

 

Nice area/or whatever, unfortunately I could not find your cache. I enjoy the challenge of finding the cache on my own, please don't send any spoilers or hints unless I ask for them. Thanks for placing the cache for me to find.

That's excellent.

 

My wording IS a bit more blunt-sounding to me than my actual intended message. I like your wording much better.

 

Thanks.

[+fauxSteve]

If I log a DNF your cache you are more than welcome to send me a nudge, hint or full spoiler. I guess I still consider the hiding caches from cachers (rather than from non-cachers) to be one of the side-games that grew out of geocaching a bit after I started. I like 'em found, personally. Occasionally there's a super-crafty hide that deserves more sensitivity and "evil-ness", but they're in the minority.

 

Myself, I often send hints to people who DNF my caches (especially if they write in their log that they'd like some help), but I usually ROT-13 the hints so its up to them to decrypt if they want them.

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun and potentially satisfying cache by keeping it hidden from me indefinitely. Feel free to send me nudges, hints and spoilers if I log a DNF. Thanks!"

[+KBI]

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with this situation ..... yeah... I've had a few exact directions emailed to me. Only really ticked me off once though... when I was specifically wanting to go back for it, and the email likely caught me off-guard. Generally, I'm pretty good at just... stopping reading and clicking the 'back' button when I notice a spoiler is coming up.

That describes the problem perfectly.

 

Although... what still happens is if I ask a previous finder or the owner for a minor hint about the cache, just to kinda give me a slight shove in the right direction... I'll get a full spoiler instead .

That's a risk I know and understand.

 

Once you ask for a weak hint you never know what you're going to get – everyone's definition of "weak hint" is naturally going to be different, and that’s something I always consider before I request a hint.

[Mushtang]

Once you ask for a weak hint you never know what you're going to get – everyone's definition of "weak hint" is naturally going to be different, and that’s something I always consider before I request a hint.

It's also true of phone calls as well as emails. I've learned that if I'm stuck on a cache and I call a certain cacher in the metro area there is a good chance that she's found it because she's found several thousand, and she's also more likely to just spit out a spoiler instead of giving me tiny hints.

 

It's a known risk I take when I call her though, and much easier to avoid than an unrequested email spoiler from someone other than the owner following a DNF log.

[+KBI]

If I log a DNF your cache you are more than welcome to send me a nudge, hint or full spoiler. I guess I still consider the hiding caches from cachers (rather than from non-cachers) to be one of the side-games that grew out of geocaching a bit after I started. I like 'em found, personally. Occasionally there's a super-crafty hide that deserves more sensitivity and "evil-ness", but they're in the minority.

Not around here -- or around many of the other towns where I cache. That's lucky for me, because it's usually the truly evil and challenging hides that entertain me the most. One would think that an owner (or prevous finder) of such a hide would automatically understand and respect that, and would at least ask a DNF-er whether they really want any help before spoioling the fun.

 

Myself, I often send hints to people who DNF my caches (especially if they write in their log that they'd like some help), but I usually ROT-13 the hints so its up to them to decrypt if they want them.

No problem there. I would welcome such emails -- and would probably print them out (still encrypted) to take along on my next attempt.

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun and potentially satisfying cache by keeping it hidden from me indefinitely. Feel free to send me nudges, hints and spoilers if I log a DNF. Thanks!"

Ugh.

 

I hope nobody gets my DNF mixed up with your DNF.

[+tozainamboku]

I feel the same way as KBI. I have gotten unsolicited spoilers when I have DNF'd a cache and want to go back and try to figure it out on my own. I figure if other people could find the cache without a hint I can too. So it becomes a challenge when I have multiple DNFs on a cache to find it on my own. Sometimes, I made it a challenge to find a cache or solve a puzzle without getting help from the cache owner even though the previous logs indicate that people got help. On some caches where I've DNF'd multiple times I do put in a request to not send me hints so I can enjoy finding the cache myself.

 

When I have gotten an unsolicited hint, I'll usually send email thanking the person for their help and indicating that my preference is to not get help unless I ask for it. Once I've gotten a hint or a spoiler there is not much I can do about it. But it really isn't that big of deal. I still get a smiley and there are other caches to find.

 

fizzymagic may be incorrect in comparing getting an unsolicited hint to having to hunt lame micros because you can't just filter them out, but I think there is a similarity. A few unsolicited spoilers are not going to ruin my geocaching any more than a few lame micros. (I know the ban microSpew group will say that there are more than a few lame micros - that's another debate)

[+simpjkee]

The first line in my profile used to say "I respectfully request that no hints be given to me.", ......Future dnf's I will write that I don't want hints.

 

I'm not really sure how many people or cache owners really take the time to read the profile information. I know to send you an email they will have to access your profile. But, do they really scroll down or read anything? I guess all they are doing is pressing the link for your email address. I think if you don't want a hint your idea of adding a note to your DNF's is the best thing to do.

 

Again, this doesn't happen around here so you all must have some generous cache owners. On the plus side of things be thankful they are taking the time to read their emails. Try to get an owner to reply to a "needs maintenance" or "needs archived".

 

yeah i figured since they access my profile to e-mail me they would see the message especially since it had stars and was in caps, but I guess not. it looked like this

 

 

**********"I RESPECTFULLY REQUEST THAT NO HINTS BE GIVEN TO ME"***********

Edited July 29, 2007 by simpjkee

[+KBI]

Fizzymagic may be incorrect in comparing getting an unsolicited hint to having to hunt lame micros because you can't just filter them out, but I think there is a similarity. A few unsolicited spoilers are not going to ruin my geocaching any more than a few lame micros.

I can agree with that. That is an accurate description for me as well.

 

This is not really a huge problem for me. There are several ways to deal with it satisfactorily. It is certainly not anything I would describe as "destroying the game," to use the favored language of the group you mention.

 

In the future when I find myself temporarily stumped by a cache that I think I would enjoy finding without help, I plan to either (1) not log a DNF at all, or (2) include the verbiage recommended by Bogleman.

 

I understand the value of a DNF log to others, however, so it'll just have to be a judgment call.

 

I guess one reason for my starting this discussion was to hopefully bring this issue to the attention of forum readers out there who don't understand that spontaneous email help is not always wanted or appreciated. I described this thread to my wife. She said something like: "That's silly! If I saw someone having trouble with my cache, of course I would help them! What's the problem?" I then explained the concept of having a potentially fun cache hunt spoiled, and she understood the dilemma.

[+PeterNoG]

I find the best way to give unsolicited hints is to encrypt them just like on the cache page.

 

Another method that I have seen, is a email with lots of white space so you have to keep paging down if you want to read more.

[+geomann1]

Personally,

 

If I see dnf's on one of my caches and it had not been found recently I take it as a cue to check on the cache, and I will post a note saying that all is well (if it is still there of course). I will not e-mail anyone, unless they e-mail me first.

 

I don't log dnf's unless I think the cache might be missing. I've never gotten a spoiler response other than one scrolled down on the page so I had the option of ignoring.

Edited July 29, 2007 by geomann1

[+Miragee]

<snip>

 

I don't log dnf's unless I think the cache might be missing. I've never gotten a spoiler response other than one scrolled down on the page so I had the option of ignoring.

If you didn't find the cache, how do you know it might be missing . . .

 

I log all my DNFs.

[+geomann1]

<snip>

 

I don't log dnf's unless I think the cache might be missing. I've never gotten a spoiler response other than one scrolled down on the page so I had the option of ignoring.

If you didn't find the cache, how do you know it might be missing . . .

 

I log all my DNFs.

 

If I make a thorough search and look at all the likely places with no luck, then it suggests that the cache might be muggled.

 

However, on a couple of occasions I suggested that the cache might be missing and it was logged found the next day or so, so I now end my logs with the caveat that I could be wrong.

Edited July 29, 2007 by geomann1

[+KBI]

<snip>

 

I don't log dnf's unless I think the cache might be missing. I've never gotten a spoiler response other than one scrolled down on the page so I had the option of ignoring.

If you didn't find the cache, how do you know it might be missing . . .

 

I log all my DNFs.

That is precisely the way I used to feel about it until I noticed the annoying trend with the spoiler problem.

 

A DNF is a good and valuable thing, but not if it results in some well-meaning cacher ruining the hunt for me.

[+KBI]

<snip>

 

I don't log dnf's unless I think the cache might be missing. I've never gotten a spoiler response other than one scrolled down on the page so I had the option of ignoring.

If you didn't find the cache, how do you know it might be missing . . .

 

I log all my DNFs.

If I make a thorough search and look at all the likely places with no luck, then it suggests that the cache might be muggled.

I've lost count of the number of times I've come to the very same conclusion after a failed cache hunt, only to put it on my watch list ... and then watch ten people log ten easy smileys on it during the next few days.

[+Wayfinders]

I've never run into that problem in my area before....even after multiple DNF's. We've got some good hiders around here. How about this......when you log your DNF, tell them then and there in your log that you don't want any hints or spoilers. It seems these folks are just being extra nice, and they probably have more cachers asking for hints than not. You have the opportunity to nip it in the bud, so maybe give that a try?

[+KBI]

Hey, I'm not proud. I'll take any hints I can get . . .

 

I DNF'd a cache the other day, then got a friend to go with me to look some more. I spent a long time looking for a Lock 'n Lock container . . . Now, it has been found by someone saying, "Thanks for the cache." No mention of searching high and low with poor accuracy on the GPSr.

 

I will probably beg for a hint before I head back down that way, so I won't embarrass myself logging another DNF on an easy urban cache . . .

I guess I don't really look at DNFs as embarrassing. I mostly view a DNF simply as a record of my activity.

 

DNFs have value for many reasons:

 

They let the cache owner know that someone couldn't find the cache. This tells the owner that there is a possibility that the cache has gone missing. The owner knows the difficulty of the hide and the history of previous find efforts, of course, and considers each new DNF in that context.

 

An unbroken string of nothing but DNFs is even more meaningful. This tells the owner that there is now a greater chance that something has gone wrong with the hide.

 

DNFs tell prospective hunters of that cache (those who choose to read the logs anyway) something about the difficulty of the hide (or the likelihood of a problem, as described above).

 

A DNF provides the person who logged it with a record of the fact that he has visited the cache – it shows up in that convenient list on the “My Account” page.

 

I’m sure I’ve read about other advantages to using the DNF log, I just can’t think of them now. The point is that I have learned not to equate “DNF” with “failure.” DNFs can be good – which is why I’m frustrated by this disadvantage that I have recently discovered.

[+Miragee]

Are you getting the hints from several different people? Or just a couple of "extra-helpful" people?

 

I would email the "helpful" person, thank them, then ask them not to "help" in the future. If it is a bunch of random people offering help, obviously that isn't an option, and your proposed addendum to your DNF would hopefully solve the problem.

[+KBI]

Are you getting the hints from several different people? Or just a couple of "extra-helpful" people?

Each time it's only been one person, but no person has done it to me more than once, if that's what you're asking.

 

The spoiler usually comes from the cache owner, but sometimes it comes from a previous finder.

 

I would email the "helpful" person, thank them, then ask them not to "help" in the future.

As I explained in my OP, I used to respond by doing exactly that. After about four such polite-as-could-be emails with no response, however, I decided that they apparently weren't very happy about receiving them. Understandable -- maybe they were embarrassed to realize what they had done, maybe they don't take criticism very well, or maybe they don't like to take responsibility for their own actions. Who knows? Having received no responses, I was left to speculate.

 

If it is a bunch of random people offering help, obviously that isn't an option, and your proposed addendum to your DNF would hopefully solve the problem.

Yes, I think that is one of the two best solutions.

 

The other is to not log a DNF at all, and to keep my searching to myself until I decide I want help.

 

Neither solution is ideal; each has its plusses and its minuses. My choice in every future DNF dilemma will therefore depend on how selfish I feel at the moment – do I provide the owner (and others) with some feedback, include the anti-spoiler line, and still risk getting an adventure-ruining email ... or do I keep my electronic mouth shut and ensure my own unspoiled fun?

[Skylerdragon]

The subject of logging DNFs has been discussed many times in the past, and I am thoroughly convinced of their value, but I don’t recall seeing this particular point ever having been made:

 

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

 

I’m a slow learner, but I have recently noticed that almost every time I post a DNF to a cache page – even if I make it clear in my log that the cache sounds like a good one and that I intend to continue my attempt to find it – I soon get an unrequested email that reveals way more than I wanted to know about the hide, usually in the form of a complete spoiler. These emails usually come from the cache owner, but sometimes it’s a previous finder doing the unwelcome spoiling.

 

The first few times this happened to me I responded by politely pointing out that one should probably ask first whether more information is desired before one risks ruining an otherwise challenging and satisfying find for another cacher. All of my response emails have been met with silence.

 

I know that the intentions of those doing the spoiling are good – they’re only trying to help me find the cache. The problem is that too many people apparently don’t consider that the person logging the DNF may not yet be ready for any help. The caches I have enjoyed the most are the truly difficult ones that I have nevertheless succeeded in finding all by myself – especially if I could find them without decrypting the hint! If I want a bigger hint, I’ll ask for one.

 

I’m considering adding this extra bit of text to every DNF that I log in the future:

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun, challenging and potentially satisfying cache by emailing me with any unrequested hints or spoilers. I’d like to maintain the option of asking for help ONLY when I want it. Thanks! "

 

 

Opinions?

 

Has anyone else had this problem?

 

Does anyone think my 'solution' is too blunt?

 

I particularly would like more people to help me out when I post a DNF. Now I understand better why I haven't gotten it. If most cachers feel the way you do, DNFs are part of the enjoyment of the sport.

 

I must admit, most of my DNFs were still positive experiences. Even the one that to this day haunts me as a totally malicious negligence on the part of the cache owner, was a positive experience. Still, being fairly new to geocaching, and still only 50% successful, I believe I would prefer to get more help when I post a DNF.

 

In response to your question...yeah I think you little message is perfect. If people in your area are automatically feeding you spoilers that you don't want post that. Around here(MO) I have to ask twice for help most of the time. I consider it my responsibility.

 

I get frustrated when I don't get help that I am looking for, but I guess that's part of the game too. Cache owners have the right to be as reserved as they want to be about helping novices like myself out. I also agree with you that the people sending spoilers are just trying to be helpful.

 

I think I am going to borrow your idea and post a note on my DNFs requesting more assistance and inviting spoilers. Maybe after I have uncovered a hundred caches I will feel differently about this extra help but for now, I really appreciate it.