How do you stop the PAF network?

[+cache_test_dummies]

To me it's the same thing as buying a crossword puzzle book and looking in the back when you get stuck. Some people look right away and some people refuse to look. Then there's everyone else that are in-between the two extemes. When it comes right down to it, it's really up to them how they are going to play. If they really want to find out they will. Some people are really good at that. I still think that we should worry about about we play the game and not worry about everyone else plays. It's wasted energy.

Your analogy works fine from the perspective of the finder, but doesn't fit the position of the hider (which is the basis of the OP).

[+Miragee]

The OP wanted the PAF network stopped. I think if people want to buddy up with the cache owner that's certainly one way to play it, if all parties are in agreement.

 

You can ask for assistance on my caches but I'll probably look to see that you are a newbie just learning the game. And if you are a caching buddy I would have no trouble reading the hint for you if you were out in the field with no internet access, but that's it.

 

I don't think we need to gear this game to give people every opportunity to find the cache unless that's what the owner wants. And I don't think we need to start illustrating how terrible caching is when an owner doesn't offer every clue.

 

And I don't think gps accuracy should be within millimeters.

I just noticed your Signature Quote and find it to be very apt.

Everything that is in agreement with our personal desires seems true. Everything that is not puts us in a rage. - Andre' Maurois

I put out my caches to be found, easily. That is my caching philosophy. I don't want to disappoint people who make the trek to my cache's location. I don't understand cache owners who seem to welcome DNF logs in their InBox . . . If anyone ever needs to call someone to find one of my caches, they are welcome to do that.

[+BlueDeuce]

To me it's the same thing as buying a crossword puzzle book and looking in the back when you get stuck.

 

The Sunday Crossword solution used to be in the following Sunday paper. The weekly solution was listed on another page. Now it's printed just below it. I cut it out and lay the solution on top of the fridge. Not because I'll look but I don't even want to see it by accident. Why would they think I needed the answer the same day? ah, personal opinion.

 

If people want to look it's fine by me, really.

 

I don't like people complaining that the cache solution wasn't provided when they wanted to look. It's not their choice to make. Ask the owner if they will provide it, if they don't, then don't complain.

Edited August 14, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+BlueDeuce]

I put out my caches to be found, easily. That is my caching philosophy. I don't want to disappoint people who make the trek to my cache's location. I don't understand cache owners who seem to welcome DNF logs in their InBox . . . If anyone ever needs to call someone to find one of my caches, they are welcome to do that.

 

I completely agree. I place caches that take you someplace and then you find the cache. I have one that's tough because of gps reception but if you read the hint you can find it. I would rather have people find the cache after making the trip.

 

Other cache owners place caches that are very hard. That's how they want them to be.

[+Miragee]

But when someone places a cache that is supposed to be easy . . . ? The one I attempted to find the other day, with a Difficulty rating of 1.5, is going to be added to this thread because, if a cache has that low a Difficulty rating, it ought to be able to be found after referring to the hint. "Look down" was just above completely useless . . . And, since there were irrigation equipment lids in the area of GZ, that hint might have even gotten me in trouble . . .

 

Wish I had a cell phone to use for PAF . . .

[+BlueDeuce]

I guess poorly managed caches aren't automatic PAF candidates. If the owner allowed it why wouldn't you call them and tell them what for?

Edited August 14, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+TrailGators]

To me it's the same thing as buying a crossword puzzle book and looking in the back when you get stuck. Some people look right away and some people refuse to look. Then there's everyone else that are in-between the two extemes. When it comes right down to it, it's really up to them how they are going to play. If they really want to find out they will. Some people are really good at that. I still think that we should worry about about we play the game and not worry about everyone else plays. It's wasted energy.

Your analogy works fine from the perspective of the finder, but doesn't fit the position of the hider (which is the basis of the OP).

Actually it does fit both ways. The owner can refuse to give out the crossword solution but the friends all have the crossword solution. So the only thing the owner can do request on the cache page that nobody gives out any hints/help for his cache. Some hiders have done that around here and I will always respect that, but not everyone is like me.

[+BlueDeuce]

To me it's the same thing as buying a crossword puzzle book and looking in the back when you get stuck. Some people look right away and some people refuse to look. Then there's everyone else that are in-between the two extemes. When it comes right down to it, it's really up to them how they are going to play. If they really want to find out they will. Some people are really good at that. I still think that we should worry about about we play the game and not worry about everyone else plays. It's wasted energy.

Your analogy works fine from the perspective of the finder, but doesn't fit the position of the hider (which is the basis of the OP).

Actually it does fit both ways. The owner can refuse to give out the crossword solution but the friends all have the crossword solution. So the only thing the owner can do request on the cache page that nobody gives out any hints/help for his cache. Some hiders have done that around here and I will always respect that, but not everyone is like me.

 

I guess I was wrong. I now understand. The PAF network should be stopped. (edit: if that's how this whole thing works)

Edited August 14, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+kailster]

... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...

Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?

 

To be honest, niether. I honestly feel that a GOOD puzzle cache is one that is painstakingly hard to work through, but there are enough markers, hints, and checks to ensure the seeker that s/he is on the correct path. To me the successful puzzle cache is one that a cacher struggles to overcome, but once doing so wonder why he did not get there sooner.

 

I do not believe in caches that are "too hard". There is NO fun in that. The seeker should be able to find the cache without intimate knowledge of the hider.

 

I would rather see a cacher DNF three or four times, and then post a smiley (and I do e-mail an atta-boy when this happens). These caches are all about overcoming. If the cacher did not overcome, it defeats the purpose

[+cache_test_dummies]

To me it's the same thing as buying a crossword puzzle book and looking in the back when you get stuck. Some people look right away and some people refuse to look. Then there's everyone else that are in-between the two extemes. When it comes right down to it, it's really up to them how they are going to play. If they really want to find out they will. Some people are really good at that. I still think that we should worry about about we play the game and not worry about everyone else plays. It's wasted energy.

Your analogy works fine from the perspective of the finder, but doesn't fit the position of the hider (which is the basis of the OP).

Actually it does fit both ways. The owner can refuse to give out the crossword solution but the friends all have the crossword solution. So the only thing the owner can do request on the cache page that nobody gives out any hints/help for his cache. Some hiders have done that around here and I will always respect that, but not everyone is like me.

Not that it matters, but I still don't get it.

 

In your analogy, the hider is the person who creates the crossword puzzle, and the finder is the person who tries to solve the crossword puzzle. Where your analogy breaks down is that (as you explained it), the creator of the crossword puzzle (the hider) freely makes the solution available to any who would choose to make use of it. With regard to this topic, the OP has provided no such solution, but others who have solved the puzzle are being called upon (through the PAF network) to provide some or all of the solution. The hider has no control this, and the OP was asking for ways to stop this.

 

Your analogy would work if the OP had provided the solution as a hint, then asked how to stop people from using the hint.

 

Can't we just stick to tozainamboku's ice cream analogy? It's so much creamier.

[+kailster]

The OP wanted the PAF network stopped. I think if people want to buddy up with the cache owner that's certainly one way to play it, if all parties are in agreement.

 

Actually, its not that I want to stop the PAF network, it does serve a purpose in the community. However when caches get more challenging, the PAF network can become a shortcut to doing the work and earning the solution. I want the ability to stop this if at all possible. If I were to go insane tomorrow and hide a light pole cache, I would not care if the PAF is used. It become an issue when a LOT of time is put into developing a very difficult cache and the PAF short curcuits the intended process.

[+TrailGators]

In your analogy, the hider is the person who creates the crossword puzzle, and the finder is the person who tries to solve the crossword puzzle. Where your analogy breaks down is that (as you explained it), the creator of the crossword puzzle (the hider) freely makes the solution available to any who would choose to make use of it. With regard to this topic, the OP has provided no such solution, but others who have solved the puzzle are being called upon (through the PAF network) to provide some or all of the solution. The hider has no control this, and the OP was asking for ways to stop this.

 

Your analogy would work if the OP had provided the solution as a hint, then asked how to stop people from using the hint.

 

Can't we just stick to tozainamboku's ice cream analogy? It's so much creamier.

Yes, we need some ice cream. Anyhow, I never said the hider freely provides the solution. Some crossword puzzles put the solution under the puzzle. Some put the solution in the back. Some make you wait a week. It's up to hider. However, anybody that has done the crossword puzzle is a potential spoiler. So the hider can post a note on the cache page to ask people to not divulge any hints. That's all he can do to stop it. I think most people would not give hints if the owner politely asks on the cache page. It's not foolproof, but if nothing is posted then guess what will happen?

[+BlueDeuce]

The OP wanted the PAF network stopped. I think if people want to buddy up with the cache owner that's certainly one way to play it, if all parties are in agreement.

 

Actually, its not that I want to stop the PAF network, it does serve a purpose in the community. However when caches get more challenging, the PAF network can become a shortcut to doing the work and earning the solution. I want the ability to stop this if at all possible. If I were to go insane tomorrow and hide a light pole cache, I would not care if the PAF is used. It become an issue when a LOT of time is put into developing a very difficult cache and the PAF short curcuits the intended process.

 

Yes, thank you. I think we are close enough in our positions to be in agreement.

[+kailster]

The OP wanted the PAF network stopped. I think if people want to buddy up with the cache owner that's certainly one way to play it, if all parties are in agreement.

 

Actually, its not that I want to stop the PAF network, it does serve a purpose in the community. However when caches get more challenging, the PAF network can become a shortcut to doing the work and earning the solution. I want the ability to stop this if at all possible. If I were to go insane tomorrow and hide a light pole cache, I would not care if the PAF is used. It become an issue when a LOT of time is put into developing a very difficult cache and the PAF short curcuits the intended process.

 

Yes, thank you. I think we are close enough in our positions to be in agreement.

 

Agreed - Just want the ability to "turn it off" . . .

[+BlueDeuce]

So the hider can post a note on the cache page to ask people to not divulge any hints. That's all he can do to stop it. I think most people would not give hints if the owner politely asks on the cache page. It's not foolproof, but if nothing is posted then guess what will happen?

 

That ROT13 guy was clueless, wasn't he?

[+cache_test_dummies]

So the hider can post a note on the cache page to ask people to not divulge any hints. That's all he can do to stop it. I think most people would not give hints if the owner politely asks on the cache page.

I agree.

 

It's not foolproof, but if nothing is posted then guess what will happen?

Um, people will ask their friends for advice on where to get the best ice cream?

 

Am I right? Or have I completely messed up the analogies?

[+TrailGators]

So the hider can post a note on the cache page to ask people to not divulge any hints. That's all he can do to stop it. I think most people would not give hints if the owner politely asks on the cache page.

I agree.

 

It's not foolproof, but if nothing is posted then guess what will happen?

Um, people will ask their friends for advice on where to get the best ice cream?

 

Am I right? Or have I completely messed up the analogies?

I think you just got your chocolate in my peanut butter....

[+BlueDeuce]

I think the Additional Hints section on each cache page offers everything a cache owner wants to provide.

[+TrailGators]

I think the Additional Hints section on each cache page offers everything a cache owner wants to provide.

Perhaps you could try this technique to stop people from giving out hints on your caches....

Edited August 14, 2007 by TrailGators

[+BlueDeuce]

Virtual logging of travel bugs were banned.

 

Offering up pocket caches were banned.

 

Multiple logging of caches currently have a warning sticker.

 

I say start offering cache spoilers without the owner's permission (even if the cacher didn't ask, PUULLEASEEEE!)

 

Thank you.

 

I have to go do some house work then I am going to bed. See you tomorrow.

[+TrailGators]

I say start offering cache spoilers without the owner's permission (even if the cacher didn't ask, PUULLEASEEEE!)

I agree with you but writing in these threads won't stop people from doing it.

[+BlueDeuce]

I was fortunate to have the chance to watch MASH while cleaning the kitchen. It was the one where Father Mulcahy complained about not getting a promotion (although he only got a commendation for doing a copter rescue) and Charles was instigating practical jokes between Margret and and the other Docs.

 

I agree with you but writing in these threads won't stop people from doing it.

 

Yes I know. I'm stuck with having only you folks to talk to.

[+TrailGators]

I was fortunate to have the chance to watch MASH while cleaning the kitchen. It was the one where Father Mulcahy complained about not getting a promotion (although he only got a commendation for doing a copter rescue) and Charles was instigating practical jokes between Margret and and the other Docs.

 

I agree with you but writing in these threads won't stop people from doing it.

 

Yes I know. I'm stuck with having only you folks to talk to.

M.A.S.H. is one of my all time favorite TV shows! I saw that episode a few weeks ago. They got Charles in the end...

[+tozainamboku]

Can't we just stick to tozainamboku's ice cream analogy? It's so much creamier.

The ice cream manufacturer wanted me to taste his ice cream. While he wasn't looking I gave it to my dog. The manufacturer didn't see so now we're both happy.

 

The ice cream manufacturer wanted me to taste his ice cream. While he wasn't looking I gave it to my dog. The manufacturer asked, "How was the ice cream?". I said, "My dog liked it."

 

The ice cream manufacturer wanted me to taste his ice cream. "And don't give it to the dog," he warned. So I left it and it melted.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Excellent analogies, tozainamboku.

 

[+BlueDeuce]

And the ice cream manufacturer had to post No Dogs Allowed just so people wouldn't bring dogs into an ice cream factory.

[+TrailGators]

Excellent analogies, tozainamboku.

 

Cute Airdale! Just remember to never feed any dog chocolate ice cream! Edited August 15, 2007 by TrailGators

[Mushtang]

Could you restrict use of the PAD (Phone A Dog) network by wrapping the ice cream in something, which would require opposable thumbs to open?

[+Moose Mob]

You guys crack me up.

[+AlanRRT]

OK, let me make my own biases clear to start with: I've never PAF'd, but on the occasions where I've ran into other cachers, I've used the information they have supplied me. I have been the recipent of a PAF call, and have not witheld information.

In 1952, Tenzig Norgay participated in a Swiss expedition to climb Mt. Everest which was nearly successful. The next year, Norgay and Sir Edmund Hillary succeeded in climbing Mt. Everest for the first time. They not only used information supplied by the Swiss team, but used Norgay's experience with them, and even some equipment they had abandoned. Was the first successful climb of Everest cheapened by using information and even equipment of those that had gone before?

One of the appealing things about Geocaching is it's free form. The rules are few and basic, so it's up to the individual cacher to decide his own style for finding the cache. If the cacher is comfortable with using PAF, the hider should accept that, even if he doesn't like it.

The only alternative is to make a long list of rules that I know I don't want, and will only serve to drive most cachers out of the game. Maybe some would like more rules, and have Geocaching more structured. If so, who will set the rules? Will variations in regional styles be taken into consideration? Who will enforce the rules? If it's a governing body, how will it be paid for? Are we willing to accept the inevitable delays in getting caches posted that will go along with having a governing body? Personally, I know my answers to these questions. If I wanted something rigid, I'd have taken up figure skating. And I don't have the legs for that.

[CoyoteRed]

Was the first successful climb of Everest cheapened by using information and even equipment of those that had gone before?

Not exactly an accurate analogy.

 

One can divide hunts into two different categories; those that don't present a challenge in the hide itself and those that do. Some caches are hidden--if they are hidden at all--from muggles only. The cache owner probably couldn't care less if a PAF is used when they've posted spoiler pictures themselves and painted the cache florescent orange.

 

The problem with PAF networks that hand out spoilers is the other category of caches--those that present a challenge for the cacher to overcome. If handing out spoilers wasn't so frowned upon why is it frowned upon in the logs?

[+sbell111]

... The problem with PAF networks that hand out spoilers is the other category of caches--those that present a challenge for the cacher to overcome.

One could certainly successfully argue that cachers who use PAF hints to find these caches are successfully overcoming the obstacle.

If handing out spoilers wasn't so frowned upon why is it frowned upon in the logs?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Many logs freely mention that Cacher X used Cacher Y's assistance.

[+Renegade Knight]

Was the first successful climb of Everest cheapened by using information and even equipment of those that had gone before?

Of course not.

It was the second guy who took the express elevator to the top provided by the first guy who cheapened the whole experience.

[+Renegade Knight]

...The rules are few and basic, so it's up to the individual cacher to decide his own style for finding the cache. If the cacher is comfortable with using PAF, the hider should accept that, even if he doesn't like it....

Your logic is both accurate and backwards.

The hider is going to accept whatever happens to their cache for no better reason than they have no choice about it. However there is no particular reason that a hider should not work to break the PAF network tha their work is better enjoyed.

 

Take the haunted mansion at Disneyland. I'd have more fun behind the scences playing with the props and making my own ghosts than taking the ride. Yet for some reason it's not up to me to do that and Disney doesn't just have to accept it nicely.

 

Even your mountain climber example the second attempt had help, but still had to solve each and every problem to get to the top of the peak. The PAF can be an express elevator to the top or it can be simple pointed hints that are not actually spoilers so a prospective finder still has to do all the work. The finder has every right to dislike express elevators and to work against them. The finder has no right to expect otherwise. The finder should just accept it, even if they dont' like it. Oh, right. they have no choice about that.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Analogies involving mountain tops, elevators, and Disneyland confuse me. Can we go back to ice cream and dogs, please?

[+TrailGators]

Analogies involving mountain tops, elevators, and Disneyland confuse me. Can we go back to ice cream and dogs, please?

[+tozainamboku]

If handing out spoilers wasn't so frowned upon why is it frowned upon in the logs?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Many logs freely mention that Cacher X used Cacher Y's assistance.

I think he means that is acceptable for cache owners to delete logs that contain spoilers. Of course, when I DNF a cache I add it to a bookmark list and get a notification so I can read the spoiler before the cacher owner deletes it. There are some things a cache owner can do to prevent or discourage someone from getting a spoiler but there are others time when it is out of his hands. It's best to just accept that some people will find easy ways to find their cache and miss out on the challenge.

 

Analogies involving mountain tops, elevators, and Disneyland confuse me. Can we go back to ice cream and dogs, please?

[CoyoteRed]

One could certainly successfully argue that cachers who use PAF hints to find these caches are successfully overcoming the obstacle.

And your point? I'm assuming you're meaning that cheating at anything is acceptable?

[+jangor]

Two points.

 

1.) A good time can be had sitting down on a rainy winter day with a couple of cacher friends working on the puzzles that have been stumpers for a while. This can really tend to clear up some blind spots.

 

2.) We have one puzzle cache that people are having particular difficulty with (GC136ZD blatantly stolen from another cacher in the southern USA - thanks for the idea) and are more than willing to give hints on and all we ask is that they refer all requests for hints to us so as not to give away the solution. So far that request has been honored. PAF will eventually take over but by then the hard core cachers in the area will have had the enjoyment of solving the puzzle with their own efforts.

 

To each his own and remember to have fun.

[+Ed56]

It annoys me when i see a log that states something to the effect of "spent some time looking, then phoned a friend and signed the log".

 

I've run into that kind of log several times and it is usually written by the same people over and over. I think some of these people barely look for 30 seconds before out comes the cell phone to call their posse for help. It makes me think to myself "so that's how you got so many finds". This doesn't annoy me all that much but it does make me think that this person is just plain lazy.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It's simple, really, here in Alabama at least.

 

Just ask in your cache description that no hints be given, and perhaps mention it in your local forum or at a few events, and word will quickly spread that you don't want us to give hints on your caches via the extensive PAF network that we maintain.

 

Since I started geocaching and using the PAF network in 2003 BubbaCache has requested that no hints be given on one specific multi, he doesn't care about the rest, and Frodo13 has requested that no hints be shared on solving his puzzle caches. We respect and abide by those requests.

 

No one else has made any indication that they have a problem with it.

[+Team Cotati]

I love difficult caches. I love the agony and sheer insanity that comes with trying to solve a puzzle or find a difficult cache. My hides reflect this philosophy about caching (and yes I do agree it is a philosophy not held by all). My ratings on my caches reflect this feeling. I put a lot of time and effort into the caches I hide, and I hope to challenge cachers with a similar thirst for this insanity.

 

It annoys me when i see a log that states something to the effect of "spent some time looking, then phoned a friend and signed the log".

 

Any suggestions to stop this network. I want my hides to be earned, not by the size of a cachers network, but by the effort placed.

 

Certianly welcome any suggestions/debate.

 

Debate: It can't be stopped unless every finder who called someone for help, is then silly enough to go and post that information in the online log. Why would someone do that?

[+popokiiti]

We've never used the PAF option...we have emailed either the cache owner or a caching pal for hints. We are lucky in that the hints we received (and there haven't been that many times we've asked) have been such that we were encouraged to continue the quest. We don't want the exact location, just a hint. If anyone wanted to PAF on any of our caches, that'd be fine by us.

[+wimseyguy]

It annoys me when i see a log that states something to the effect of "spent some time looking, then phoned a friend and signed the log".

 

I've run into that kind of log several times and it is usually written by the same people over and over. I think some of these people barely look for 30 seconds before out comes the cell phone to call their posse for help. It makes me think to myself "so that's how you got so many finds". This doesn't annoy me all that much but it does make me think that this person is just plain lazy.

 

My doctor tells me I will enjoy life more if I don't let the actions of others annoy me when they really do not affect my life. I'm happy to share his advice with you and everyone else in here.

 

Until you get to know those people a little bit better, you might want to reserve that judgment?

I'm sure there are some cachers who do whip the phone out after a quick search.

I'm sure there are some cachers who never use a PAF.

I know there are many cachers who will search for at least 15-20 minutes before reaching for the phone as a last resort. I do it once in a while myself.

 

I've got no problems posting my DNF's, but sometimes you just cannot see that 800# gorilla sitting the room right next to you and need someone to give you a slap in the right direction to help your vision-is that so bad? I did it twice in a 13 hour caching run yesterday. I also posted a couple of DNF' (or will when I finish my logging) and a few finds too. The really important part is that I had a really FUN day with a friend finding some caches, exploring some new areas, and even learning a little history about the area.

 

PS when I get a PAF call I ask if they want a silver platter hint or a subtle nudge. I do the same when I am making the call.

Edited November 30, 2009 by wimseyguy

[AZcachemeister]

If this were a concern to me, I would choose the previously mentioned 'hide the cache where there is no cell service' option.