Spew Be Gone!

[+sbell111]

What if SBell111 showed you a way to increase the chance you'd get a good beer, and decrease the chance you'd get a shaken beer? In your analogy you'd reject his help on the basis that you might miss out on a non-shaken beer.

To follow this analogy through, sbell111 would tell brainsnat to set up a filter to select his beer, and that any beer in the Beer Hunter game would be filtered out.

You're saying that using SBell111's suggestion Brian would eliminate all beer? I'm not sure why you're saying that. If I'm wrong, I don't understand what it is you're saying. Clarify?

I'm not saying he'll eliminate all beer. The only way I can think of to filter out shaken beer would be to not drink beer used in the game. He'd have to go get his beer elsewhere.

All you have to do is set the beers back in the fridge for a little while. The problem is, that is too much work for some people. Instead, they'd rather complain about how hard it is to find unshaken beer. Edited September 10, 2007 by sbell111

[+kd4crs]

Removing or relocating any type of cache (good or bad) is just plain wrong. I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport. Many of them seem to be placed in unremarkable, disinteresting places which are not really rewarding to travel to in order to find them. I suppose if the property owner or conditions prohibit other types of caches a micro is better than a virtual cache. The more micros I find, the less interested I become in putting forth the effort. Am I missing something about micros or am I just being cynical?

Edited September 10, 2007 by kd4crs

[+briansnat]

I still feel that the best and cheapest geocache containers may be found at E. J. Korvette's discount stores and McCrory five and dime stores.

 

I get my containers from Two Guys, but I hear Gimbels is having a sale on Lock n Locks.

[+Kit Fox]

Removing or relocating any type of cache (good or bad) is just plain wrong. I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport. Many of them seem to be placed in unremarkable, disinteresting places which are not really rewarding to travel to in order to find them. I suppose if the property owner or conditions prohibit other types of caches a micro is better than a virtual cache. The more micros I find, the less interested I become in putting forth the effort. Am I missing something about micros or am I just being cynical?

 

Welcome to the "cachers tired of lame caches crowd." Many of us feel the same way as you do, and have actively tried different methods to make them "disappear" before we go geocaching. Creative pocket queries, actively studying the locations of placed caches, and a careful review of past logs is what many of us need to do, in order to keep geocaching fun. Of course, your opinion will be questioned by the Staunch Defenders of Everything Lame "SDEL." Be prepared to be called an elitist.

[+TrailGators]

DOETL

What is that?

It's a misspelling of DOEL, or SDOEL as it started, which is short for Staunch Defenders Of Everything Lame.

 

SDOEL is a name one of The Complainers came up with to attempt to insult those of us that suggest even the lame hides are worth something to someone, and shouldn't be removed as garbage (as the OP in this thread suggested) or banned (as other threads have suggested) simply because some people don't like them.

 

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

This is hogwash. DOETL was what I meant to say. It means Defenders Of Everything Totally Lame and Brian also used the acronym earlier. The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy. They enter any and every thread where people are discussing how to filter caches and try to needle/provoke people into fights. I'm not falling for it this time. Like I said when I wrote DOETL earlier the OP is gone, and the discussion has been beneficial since the mod stepped in. If the DOETL are just going to cause trouble I'd like to ask them to leave this thread and let us discuss things in peace. Edited September 11, 2007 by TrailGators

[Trinity's Crew]

Removing or relocating any type of cache (good or bad) is just plain wrong. I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport. Many of them seem to be placed in unremarkable, disinteresting places which are not really rewarding to travel to in order to find them. I suppose if the property owner or conditions prohibit other types of caches a micro is better than a virtual cache. The more micros I find, the less interested I become in putting forth the effort. Am I missing something about micros or am I just being cynical?

No, it means you are discovering your dislikes and dislikes. We all have favorite and least favorite cache types and hide techniques. If you think that an overabundance of micros is detrimental to the sport, then that's what you think. I think that putting more restricitions or bans in place would be more detrimental to the game than lame caches (whatever that may mean to you) ever could.

 

A lot of people say these same things you said without using the phrases " I think" and "It seems", which comes across (to me) as an attempt to speak for all geocachers and that just plucks my nerves. Yeah, I know. I need to get over it.

[+KBI]

Micros are about the hunt, and about getting your numbers up. Personaly, I'm thankful for the variety. After 5 hrs. of bushwacking in the woods and drudging through the swamps just to have a dnf, it's nice to have a little instant gratification micro sometimes. I'm not sure what you mean by 'spew'.

Use of terms like "microspew" is a popular way for certain cachers with an elitist mindset to insult those whose caching preferences they condemn.

 

Some people strongly prefer caching that involves some kind of adventure, difficulty, challenge, point of interest, long hike, great view, or unexpected and creative twist.

 

Others prefer to enjoy watching their find count ratchet ever upward by logging any and every cache they can lay their hands on, no matter what kind of cache it is. The easier the better.

 

For whatever reason, the first group tends to look down their nose at the second group. Finding a cache purely for the sake of happily running up one's score is a perfectly valid and legitimate way to enjoy the game, but some people don’t see it that way – and some of those people feel the need to mock and belittle the folks who enjoy easy caches and score chases.

 

Each side, of course, is forced to do a little work and research (not much, but a little) if they want to avoid the other group’s preferred hides. You rarely hear the numbers enthusiasts complaining about all the long hikes and tough puzzles out there, but quite a few of the creativity-enforcement types make a pastime out of complaining about what are apparently too many choices for them to deal with.

 

I'm like you: I’m thankful for the variety. I enjoy both kinds, cool AND lame. Sometimes I want an adventure or a hike, but sometimes I just want to log a find.....ANY find.

 

The name-calling I receive as a result of defending and occasionally enjoying those undemanding or uninspired hides just makes it all the more entertaining. It’s like when people yell expletives at me from their cars when I’m on my bike; it only makes me smile, because I know they’re really just jealous that I’m having more fun than they are.

[+Ambrosia]

DOETL

What is that?

It's a misspelling of DOEL, or SDOEL as it started, which is short for Staunch Defenders Of Everything Lame.

 

SDOEL is a name one of The Complainers came up with to attempt to insult those of us that suggest even the lame hides are worth something to someone, and shouldn't be removed as garbage (as the OP in this thread suggested) or banned (as other threads have suggested) simply because some people don't like them.

 

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

This is hogwash. DOETL was what I meant to say. It means Defenders Of Everything Totally Lame and Brian also used the acronym earlier. The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy. They enter any and every thread where people are discussing how to filter caches and try to needle/provoke people into fights. I'm not falling for it this time. Like I said when I wrote DOETL earlier the OP is gone, and the discussion has been beneficial since the mod stepped in. If the DOETL are just going to cause trouble I'd like to ask them to leave this thread and let us discuss things in peace.

Interesting. You could say the same about the "non DOETL".

[+TrailGators]

DOETL

What is that?

It's a misspelling of DOEL, or SDOEL as it started, which is short for Staunch Defenders Of Everything Lame.

 

SDOEL is a name one of The Complainers came up with to attempt to insult those of us that suggest even the lame hides are worth something to someone, and shouldn't be removed as garbage (as the OP in this thread suggested) or banned (as other threads have suggested) simply because some people don't like them.

 

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

This is hogwash. DOETL was what I meant to say. It means Defenders Of Everything Totally Lame and Brian also used the acronym earlier. The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy. They enter any and every thread where people are discussing how to filter caches and try to needle/provoke people into fights. I'm not falling for it this time. Like I said when I wrote DOETL earlier the OP is gone, and the discussion has been beneficial since the mod stepped in. If the DOETL are just going to cause trouble I'd like to ask them to leave this thread and let us discuss things in peace.

Interesting. You could say the same about the "non DOETL".

Ambrosia, I will admit that I used to be more hard-core. But I'm sick of it. I can't speak for others (a non-DOETL trait), so I have really been trying to be much nicer and not so hard-core. I have been focusing on working on solving the problem, I have a vested interest in. I just wish the monkeys would get off my back! Edited September 11, 2007 by TrailGators

[Trinity's Crew]

Ambrosia, I will admit that I used to be more hard-core. But I'm sick of it. So I have really been trying to be much nicer and not so hard-core. I have been focusing on working on solving the problem, I have a vested interest in. I just wish the monkeys would get off my back!

It's a PANDA, not a monkey. And it's not on a skewer as someone once thought, it's sleepiing in a tree.

[+Kit Fox]

Micros are about the hunt, and about getting your numbers up. Personaly, I'm thankful for the variety. After 5 hrs. of bushwacking in the woods and drudging through the swamps just to have a dnf, it's nice to have a little instant gratification micro sometimes. I'm not sure what you mean by 'spew'.

Use of terms like "microspew" is a popular way for certain cachers with an elitist mindset to insult those whose caching preferences they condemn.

 

Fits right into my comments in my last post.

 

Each side, of course, is forced to do a little work and research (not much, but a little) if they want to avoid the other group’s preferred hides. You rarely hear the numbers enthusiasts complaining about all the long hikes and tough puzzles out there, but quite a few of the creativity-enforcement types make a pastime out of complaining about what are apparently too many choices for them to deal with.

 

All the number enthusiasts need to do is run a PQ that excludes every cache with a difficulty and terrain higher than one star. They can exclude puzzles while they are at.

 

There is no easy method to "weed out crap," without spending hours reviewing maps, previous logs, descriptions, etc.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Kit Fox

[+Ambrosia]

DOETL

What is that?

It's a misspelling of DOEL, or SDOEL as it started, which is short for Staunch Defenders Of Everything Lame.

 

SDOEL is a name one of The Complainers came up with to attempt to insult those of us that suggest even the lame hides are worth something to someone, and shouldn't be removed as garbage (as the OP in this thread suggested) or banned (as other threads have suggested) simply because some people don't like them.

 

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

This is hogwash. DOETL was what I meant to say. It means Defenders Of Everything Totally Lame and Brian also used the acronym earlier. The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy. They enter any and every thread where people are discussing how to filter caches and try to needle/provoke people into fights. I'm not falling for it this time. Like I said when I wrote DOETL earlier the OP is gone, and the discussion has been beneficial since the mod stepped in. If the DOETL are just going to cause trouble I'd like to ask them to leave this thread and let us discuss things in peace.

Interesting. You could say the same about the "non DOETL".

Ambrosia, I will admit that I used to be more hard-core. But I'm sick of it. I can't speak for others (a non-DOETL trait), so I have really been trying to be much nicer and not so hard-core. I have been focusing on working on solving the problem, I have a vested interest in. I just wish the monkeys would get off my back!

Thank you for trying.

[+KBI]

Removing or relocating any type of cache (good or bad) is just plain wrong. I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport. Many of them seem to be placed in unremarkable, disinteresting places which are not really rewarding to travel to in order to find them. I suppose if the property owner or conditions prohibit other types of caches a micro is better than a virtual cache. The more micros I find, the less interested I become in putting forth the effort. Am I missing something about micros or am I just being cynical?

Welcome to the "cachers tired of lame caches crowd." Many of us feel the same way as you do, and have actively tried different methods to make them "disappear" before we go geocaching. Creative pocket queries, actively studying the locations of placed caches, and a careful review of past logs is what many of us need to do, in order to keep geocaching fun. Of course, your opinion will be questioned by the Staunch Defenders of Everything Lame "SDEL." Be prepared to be called an elitist.

Speaking as a proud Defender, allow me to remind you that I, for one, do not begrudge this cacher his preference. Nobody is expected to like every cache. Creative pocket queries, actively studying the locations of placed caches, and a careful review of past logs is a fine way to deal with one's likes and dislikes.

 

I have been asking -- BEGGING -- for a long time now for someone -- ANYONE -- to defend, or preferrably PROVE, this statement:

I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport.

This claim comes up every time this subject is discussed, yet whenever I challenge someone to explain the reasoning behind that conclusion I get nothing but silence -- or worse, obfuscation and name-calling. Certain people love to make that claim, but nobody ever defends it.

 

"These newbies aren't doing it right! Their caches are lame! Let's pull up the ladder!" If such an opinion is viewed by some as elitist, there's probably a very good reason for that.

[+TrailGators]

Ambrosia, I will admit that I used to be more hard-core. But I'm sick of it. So I have really been trying to be much nicer and not so hard-core. I have been focusing on working on solving the problem, I have a vested interest in. I just wish the monkeys would get off my back!

It's a PANDA, not a monkey. And it's not on a skewer as someone once thought, it's sleepiing in a tree.

I like Pandas and I have never considered you and many others to be part of the DOETL. I respect others likes and simply have different likes. BTW, I don't like brussel sprouts. Yecch! Edited September 11, 2007 by TrailGators

[+Ambrosia]

Ambrosia, I will admit that I used to be more hard-core. But I'm sick of it. So I have really been trying to be much nicer and not so hard-core. I have been focusing on working on solving the problem, I have a vested interest in. I just wish the monkeys would get off my back!

It's a PANDA, not a monkey. And it's not on a skewer as someone once thought, it's sleepiing in a tree.

I know that it's not on a skewer, and if you look at it that's obvious. But I still can't help but think it every time I see it!

[Trinity's Crew]

Edit: Nevermind.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Trinity's Crew

[+Kit Fox]

Speaking as a proud Defender, allow me to remind you that I, for one, do not begrudge this cacher his preference. Nobody is expected to like every cache. Creative pocket queries, actively studying the locations of placed caches, and a careful review of past logs is a fine way to deal with one's likes and dislikes.

 

I have been asking -- BEGGING -- for a long time now for someone -- ANYONE -- to defend, or preferrably PROVE, this statement:

I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport.

This claim comes up every time this subject is discussed, yet whenever I challenge someone to explain the reasoning behind that conclusion I get nothing but silence -- or worse, obfuscation and name-calling. Certain people love to make that claim, but nobody ever defends it.

 

"These newbies aren't doing it right! Their caches are lame! Let's pull up the ladder!" If such an opinion is viewed by some as elitist, there's probably a very good reason for that.

 

I'll give it a whack!

 

Since the majority of micros are hidden in urban settings (sans permission), the increased chance of confrontation with "Law Enforcement, Security, and property owners is detrimental to our hobby. The negative media attention is a "bonus" but this is also linked to urban small to large caches too.

 

Of course this is only one angle.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Kit Fox

[+KBI]

All the number enthusiasts need to do is run a PQ that excludes every cache with a difficulty and terrain higher than one star. They can exclude puzzles while they are at.

All the Creativity Elitists need to do is run a PQ that excludes every cache with a difficulty and/or terrain lower than two stars. This will weed out all but a few of what is considered "lame," and will still leave more caches to hunt than a person can find in a lifetime -- WAY more than existed back in the "good old days," the days the folks with the "proper" preferences always pine for.

 

There is no easy method to "weed out crap," without spending hours reviewing maps, previous logs, descriptions, etc.

I call exaggeration there. That has not been my experience at all, and I have cached in dozens and dozens of urban and suburban areas all over the US, Mexico and Canada. Two minutes or less per cache page gives me all I need to decide what to avoid when I find myself with more caches available than time -- and I don't even use PQs! Nobody has ever convinced me why this has to be so hard.

[Trinity's Crew]

I have never considered you and many others to be part of the DOETL.

Then I'm not doing it right! Edited September 11, 2007 by Trinity's Crew

[+KBI]

Speaking as a proud Defender, allow me to remind you that I, for one, do not begrudge this cacher his preference. Nobody is expected to like every cache. Creative pocket queries, actively studying the locations of placed caches, and a careful review of past logs is a fine way to deal with one's likes and dislikes.

 

I have been asking -- BEGGING -- for a long time now for someone -- ANYONE -- to defend, or preferrably PROVE, this statement:

I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport.

This claim comes up every time this subject is discussed, yet whenever I challenge someone to explain the reasoning behind that conclusion I get nothing but silence -- or worse, obfuscation and name-calling. Certain people love to make that claim, but nobody ever defends it.

 

"These newbies aren't doing it right! Their caches are lame! Let's pull up the ladder!" If such an opinion is viewed by some as elitist, there's probably a very good reason for that.

 

I'll give it a whack!

 

Since the majority of micros are hidden in urban settings (sans permission), the increased chance of confrontation with "Law Enforcement, Security, and property owners is detrimental to our hobby. The negative media attention is a "bonus" but this is also linked to urban small to large caches too.

 

Of course this is only one angle.

Please clarify: Are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of lame micros is detrimental to the sport, or are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of micros that violate the existing guidelines is detrimental to the sport?

[Mushtang]

DOETL

What is that?

It's a misspelling of DOEL, or SDOEL as it started, which is short for Staunch Defenders Of Everything Lame.

 

SDOEL is a name one of The Complainers came up with to attempt to insult those of us that suggest even the lame hides are worth something to someone, and shouldn't be removed as garbage (as the OP in this thread suggested) or banned (as other threads have suggested) simply because some people don't like them.

 

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

This is hogwash. DOETL was what I meant to say. It means Defenders Of Everything Totally Lame and Brian also used the acronym earlier. The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy. They enter any and every thread where people are discussing how to filter caches and try to needle/provoke people into fights. I'm not falling for it this time. Like I said when I wrote DOETL earlier the OP is gone, and the discussion has been beneficial since the mod stepped in. If the DOETL are just going to cause trouble I'd like to ask them to leave this thread and let us discuss things in peace.

Interesting. You could say the same about the "non DOETL".

Apparently the name callers have not stopped, and have once again changed the name they're using to insult us.

[+Too Tall John]

Since the majority of micros are hidden in urban settings (sans permission), the increased chance of confrontation with "Law Enforcement, Security, and property owners is detrimental to our hobby. The negative media attention is a "bonus" but this is also linked to urban small to large caches too.

 

Of course this is only one angle.

Please clarify: Are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of lame micros is detrimental to the sport, or are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of micros that violate the existing guidelines is detrimental to the sport?

Hmm...

 

Personally, I'd lump caches that are placed against guidelines to fall under the "lame" category, micros or not.

[+Too Tall John]

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

Apparently the name callers have not stopped, and have once again changed the name they're using to insult us.

Wait... which is it again? A beloved term, or an insult?

 

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

[+TrailGators]

Since the majority of micros are hidden in urban settings (sans permission), the increased chance of confrontation with "Law Enforcement, Security, and property owners is detrimental to our hobby. The negative media attention is a "bonus" but this is also linked to urban small to large caches too.

 

Of course this is only one angle.

Please clarify: Are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of lame micros is detrimental to the sport, or are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of micros that violate the existing guidelines is detrimental to the sport?

Hmm...

 

Personally, I'd lump caches that are placed against guidelines to fall under the "lame" category, micros or not.

I think we all can agree on that!

[Mushtang]

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

Apparently the name callers have not stopped, and have once again changed the name they're using to insult us.

Wait... which is it again? A beloved term, or an insult?

 

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

Sure I can. The name was intended to be an insult, but nobody seemed to be insulted by it. The name calling, the crafty terms that keeps being used for caches they don't like, etc. are forever changing.

 

Just because you're not bothered by someone poking you, doesn't mean that they're not poking you.

[+Moose Mob]

It seems that a person can't take a couple weeks to go caching in far and distant lands without all of you losing your senses.

 

Hello people!! This is just a game!!!!

 

Loosen up, will ya?

 

As far as this thread goes, it has no purpose but to create and propogate angst.

 

The angst and personal attacks needs to stop.

[+KBI]

Since the majority of micros are hidden in urban settings (sans permission), the increased chance of confrontation with "Law Enforcement, Security, and property owners is detrimental to our hobby. The negative media attention is a "bonus" but this is also linked to urban small to large caches too.

 

Of course this is only one angle.

Please clarify: Are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of lame micros is detrimental to the sport, or are you attempting to explain how the overabundance of micros that violate the existing guidelines is detrimental to the sport?

Hmm...

 

Personally, I'd lump caches that are placed against guidelines to fall under the "lame" category, micros or not.

I think we all can agree on that!

And this is on topic ... how?

 

The statement I asked to be defended was this one:

 

I think the overabundance of micro caches is detrimental to the sport.

Kit Fox then made an irrelevant reference to the guidelines, citing "the increased chance of confrontation with Law Enforcement, Security, and property owners." I thought we were talking about uninspired caches, not caches that break accepted rules of practicality. Can you guys please show me how violating the guidelines is equivalent to violating some cache hunter's minimum-required level of entertainment or creativity?

 

An overabundance of non-compliant caches IS detrimental to the sport, but: that is not in dispute, that is not what's being discussed here, and that is not at all what the OP was talking about.

 

An overabundance of uninspired caches is NOT detrimental to the sport. It is only detrimental to those who can't figure out how to tolerate their existence, or who are somehow convinced that their own preferences are somehow more acceptable, proper or important than other people's preferences.

[+Too Tall John]

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

Apparently the name callers have not stopped, and have once again changed the name they're using to insult us.

Wait... which is it again? A beloved term, or an insult?

 

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

Sure I can. The name was intended to be an insult, but nobody seemed to be insulted by it. The name calling, the crafty terms that keeps being used for caches they don't like, etc. are forever changing.

 

Just because you're not bothered by someone poking you, doesn't mean that they're not poking you.

No, you can't, because not being bothered by being poked and using a title that wasn't meant in the best light are not the same. You, in one breath, said "members of SDOEL actually like the term" and in the next said "they're using to insult us"!

 

Imagine you're riding down the road in your parents' car. You are 6 years old. Your sibling is poking you. You say "Hey, I like being poked!" They keep poking. Suddenly, you shout "Hey! They're bugging me!"

 

That's exactly what we have here. Two messages from the same person about the same action. Which shall we believe? That you really don't like the title and were trying to use it in a good light? Or that you like the title, but are trying to look like the victim by saying it is an insult?

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

It seems like y'all wont be happy until all urban micros go away, then you can only find the regular sized cache in back dirt roads or mountain hikes. It was like this with virtuals too, and now they are gone. I hope the same fate isnt in store for urban micros.

[+traildad]

One problem with this is that there are enough caches that people want to be secret - whether good or bad (wants it to be a surprise that there's a great, secret view, or the end of a puzzle cache) - that there would have to be an option to not specify the type, and then eventually most people would probably start not specifying after a while. Just a thought.

I can see value in a surprise or secret label. If you hunted one or two and found you were unimpressed with a hiders surprise, you can always avoid them in the future. I don't think eventually most people would choose surprise. If you let hiders choose to opt out, then maybe people that can't be bothered would. However there could still be a label applied on the finders side.

[+kd4crs]

To clarify my earlier comment. I meant that micro caches which I consider to be lame, are detrimental to the sport the way I see it. Lame is an entirely subjective qualification and what I consider lame may be fascinating to someone else. It just seems like some people would put a micro cache under every ledge and crack that could be found just to say it is a cache and have it published. I suggest that perhaps those placing micros stop and consider a moment before placing micros everywhere, willy nilly. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. I am not an elitist and I don't wish to engage in name calling or argument. This will be all I have to say on this subject due to the moderator's request.

Edited September 11, 2007 by kd4crs

[+Too Tall John]

Can you guys please show me how violating the guidelines is equivalent to violating some cache hunter's minimum-required level of entertainment or creativity?

One example right off the top of my head:

 

Cache is placed without permission in front of a restaurant. Cache seeker, while hunting for said cache, is confronted and detained by the restaurant owner until police arrive. If it had been me, I'd say my "minimum-required level of entertainment" threshold would have been broken. (A true story, read about it here in the forums. Other than these few details, I do remember that Criminal was involved in the thread, giving legal advice. If someone finds a linky...)

 

The caches that I would consider "spew" would be those that were tossed out there with little or no thought. It would follow that a cache that was placed without thought was placed without permission, as getting permission would require thought.

 

Thus, "spew" = not thought through = likely against guidelines

[Mushtang]

Those of us that are considered members of SDOEL actually like the term.

Apparently the name callers have not stopped, and have once again changed the name they're using to insult us.

Wait... which is it again? A beloved term, or an insult?

 

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

Sure I can. The name was intended to be an insult, but nobody seemed to be insulted by it. The name calling, the crafty terms that keeps being used for caches they don't like, etc. are forever changing.

 

Just because you're not bothered by someone poking you, doesn't mean that they're not poking you.

No, you can't, because not being bothered by being poked and using a title that wasn't meant in the best light are not the same. You, in one breath, said "members of SDOEL actually like the term" and in the next said "they're using to insult us"!

 

Imagine you're riding down the road in your parents' car. You are 6 years old. Your sibling is poking you. You say "Hey, I like being poked!" They keep poking. Suddenly, you shout "Hey! They're bugging me!"

 

That's exactly what we have here. Two messages from the same person about the same action. Which shall we believe? That you really don't like the title and were trying to use it in a good light? Or that you like the title, but are trying to look like the victim by saying it is an insult?

See, but I never shouted, "Hey the term SDOEL is bugging me". I merely made mention that the term was meant to try and bug me (and others).

 

I'll try again.

 

If someone calls you a name and uses it in a good way, then they're not insulting you. I can call you Too Tall as a term of endearment and be nice about it. But someone else might actually think you're taller than you have the right to be and think you should be shorter, and call you Too Tall as they take jabs at your appearance. They're clearly trying to insult you, but if it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you.

 

Just because you're not bothered by an insult, doesn't mean it's not an insult.

Just because you're not bothered by someone poking you, doesn't mean they're not poking you.

[+Snoogans]

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

 

Really?

 

Some folks will use a name to take it's power away from those who would use it to hurt or demean.

 

Many people understand this concept.

 

It doesn't make it any better when someone uses it in the context to tryyy to hurt or demean.

 

You can consider me a proud perceived Staunch Defender of Everything percieved Lame.

 

If the cache was approved within the guidelines and the cache is actually within the guidlines as advertised, then who am I to judge someone else's contribution to this great activity to be lacking? My standards are very high, but they my own internal criteria. I actually understand this. I refuse to judge other folk's caches by the ruler I measure my own caches by.

 

This is a game of hide and seek. Nothing more. Just like when we were kids, some are better at it than others.

 

Perception IS reality. Some folks just neeeeed to crap on other folks contributions to make themselves feel better and to keep from accepting responsibility for their own choices. It's easier that way.

 

But don't stop, or I'll lose a source of daily smug superior feelings.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Snoogans

[+Too Tall John]

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

Really?

 

Some folks will use a name to take it's power away from those who would use it to hurt or demean.

 

Many people understand this concept.

An important part of the concept is to make it believable. To do so requires you not to go around pointing out that it is an insult. SDOEL, or DOETL, or whatever was referred to as:

the name they're using to insult us.

Not "the name they're using to try to insult us, but "to insult us," implying that it worked. Can't do that and keep wearing it. Kinda like wearing a badge even though everyone knows that the pinback is embedded into your chest.

 

As this isn't really on topic, if you'd like to discuss further, PM me, I've already PM'd Mushtang.

[+TeamBarstool]

QUOTE(Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking @ Sep 10 2007, 07:21 PM)

 

It seems like y'all wont be happy until all urban micros go away, then you can only find the regular sized cache in back dirt roads or mountain hikes. It was like this with virtuals too, and now they are gone. I hope the same fate isnt in store for urban micros.

 

I think the next big issue in this game is going to be a trespassing issue. and it will be urban.

My 1st day of caching was urban micros.I almost decided this was a great way to get arrested or at a minimum hassled.

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Yet oddly enough, the first big stink over trespassing came from rural caches in national parks, not urban micros.

[+TrailGators]

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

 

Really?

 

Some folks will use a name to take it's power away from those who would use it to hurt or demean.

 

Many people understand this concept.

 

It doesn't make it any better when someone uses it in the context to tryyy to hurt or demean.

 

You can consider me a proud perceived Staunch Defender of Everything percieved Lame.

 

If the cache was approved within the guidelines and the cache is actually within the guidlines as advertised, then who am I to judge someone else's contribution to this great activity to be lacking? My standards are very high, but they my own internal criteria. I actually understand this. I refuse to judge other folk's caches by the ruler I measure my own caches by.

 

This is a game of hide and seek. Nothing more. Just like when we were kids, some are better at it than others.

 

Perception IS reality. Some folks just neeeeed to crap on other folks contributions to make themselves feel better and to keep from accepting responsibility for their own choices. It's easier that way.

 

But don't stop, or I'll lose a source of daily smug superior feelings.

 

Yet another example of what I was talking about....

The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy.

[+KBI]

To clarify my earlier comment. I meant that micro caches which I consider to be lame, are detrimental to the sport the way I see it.

It’s likely I’ve missed something here, but that doesn’t sound like much of a clarification to me. You’ve merely repeated your claim, and still haven’t offered any proof or support.

 

Lame is an entirely subjective qualification and what I consider lame may be fascinating to someone else.

A very reasonable statement, and I agree completely, but this statement would seem to contradict your "detriment" claim.

 

All micros are hidden, and found, voluntarily. Why would anyone voluntarily hide a cache unless they thought they would enjoy doing so? Why do the people who voluntarily log them keep doing so unless they enjoy it? The undisputed fact that these things keep getting hidden and found in ever-growing numbers indicates that they are quite popular. None of that sounds "detrimental to the sport" to me. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

It just seems like some people would put a micro cache under every ledge and crack that could be found just to say it is a cache and have it published. I suggest that perhaps those placing micros stop and consider a moment before placing micros everywhere, willy nilly. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

I hunt caches because they are there. I hide caches because I can. Does there really need to be any other reason?

 

You ARE aware, I hope, that there are plenty of folks out there who think our entire game falls into the category in which you place uninspired micros. They think ALL geocaching is pointless and silly. I have actually met some of these poor sad humorless folks. If you think the people who enjoy placing and finding large numbers of less-than-exciting micros should change their behavior to suit you, then why don’t you stop caching altogether in order to comply with the advice of those who would tell you you’re wasting your time hunting ANY geocache? Doesn’t that sound fair? If not, then why can’t you go out and cache the way you prefer without presuming to tell others what they should prefer?

[+tozainamboku]

Can you guys please show me how violating the guidelines is equivalent to violating some cache hunter's minimum-required level of entertainment or creativity?

One example right off the top of my head:

 

Cache is placed without permission in front of a restaurant. Cache seeker, while hunting for said cache, is confronted and detained by the restaurant owner until police arrive. If it had been me, I'd say my "minimum-required level of entertainment" threshold would have been broken. (A true story, read about it here in the forums. Other than these few details, I do remember that Criminal was involved in the thread, giving legal advice. If someone finds a linky...)

 

Actual that was me that it happened to. Interesting though. The cache owners, who thought they didn't need permission when they placed the cache went back an talked to the restaurant owner and once they explained geocaching to him he was fine with it. The cache, which I had posted an SBA on, is still active. People are still exaggerating the problems that may be caused by a cache is placed without permission. I suspect that in most cases the property owner will simply ask that the cache be removed. In some case the property won't have a problem once geocaching is explained. I know of very few cases where law enforcement has gotten involved. The bigger problems have been with non-urban caches where land managers have banned all caches because they mistakenly think that caches are buried or because they believe that caches lead to the formation of social trails.

[+Too Tall John]

Yet oddly enough, the first big stink over trespassing came from rural caches in national parks, not urban micros.

My understanding was that the NPS didn't like the idea of the possibility of caches being buried all over the place. That's when that guideline came along, a little too late.

 

So, sure, let's keep hiding them urban micros without permission, folks! Imagine the fun it'll be when the stuff finally hits the fan!

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

The only cache a cop has ever stopped me at was a rural cache in the desert. The area was known for a place to abandon stolen cars.

[+KBI]

Can you guys please show me how violating the guidelines is equivalent to violating some cache hunter's minimum-required level of entertainment or creativity?

One example right off the top of my head:

 

Cache is placed without permission in front of a restaurant. Cache seeker, while hunting for said cache, is confronted and detained by the restaurant owner until police arrive. If it had been me, I'd say my "minimum-required level of entertainment" threshold would have been broken.

You're STILL talking about a practical issue, not an aesthetic issue.

 

I have found some caches that I thought were VERY cool except for the fact that there was an obvious guideline violation involved. If a cache is placed so as to raise unnecessary suspicion and alarm among reasonable-minded muggles every time some cacher arrives at the coords, then you've got an excellent point to suggest that the cache in question is detrimental to the game, but ... you're talking about practicality, not creativity.

 

The OP's post was about uninspired caches, not guideline abuses. They are two completely different issues.

 

Your point is irrelevant and off topic for this thread.

[+TeamBarstool]

Yet oddly enough, the first big stink over trespassing came from rural caches in national parks, not urban micros.

 

agreed. and the caching group down here is very quick to let some one know when they are setting a cache in a wilderness area or a BLM area are that is off limits. are there any local cachers anywhere making sure the urbans are legal?

[+TrailGators]

To clarify my earlier comment. I meant that micro caches which I consider to be lame, are detrimental to the sport the way I see it. Lame is an entirely subjective qualification and what I consider lame may be fascinating to someone else. It just seems like some people would put a micro cache under every ledge and crack that could be found just to say it is a cache and have it published. I suggest that perhaps those placing micros stop and consider a moment before placing micros everywhere, willy nilly. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. I am not an elitist and I don't wish to engage in name calling or argument. This will be all I have to say on this subject due to the moderator's request.

kd4crs you have the right to voice your opinion without getting bullied by the DOETL. They attack anyone and everyone with an opinion contrary to theirs. I just want you to know that I respect your opinion. Thanks for sharing it!

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Yet oddly enough, the first big stink over trespassing came from rural caches in national parks, not urban micros.

My understanding was that the NPS didn't like the idea of the possibility of caches being buried all over the place. That's when that guideline came along, a little too late.

 

So, sure, let's keep hiding them urban micros without permission, folks! Imagine the fun it'll be when the stuff finally hits the fan!

 

No one advocates hiding any cache without permission. However, it is clear that the problems geocaching will face with the public isnt limited to those "despised" urban micros.

[+KBI]

You can't call foul for a name you wear as a badge.

Really?

 

Some folks will use a name to take it's power away from those who would use it to hurt or demean.

 

Many people understand this concept.

An important part of the concept is to make it believable. To do so requires you not to go around pointing out that it is an insult. SDOEL, or DOETL, or whatever was referred to as:

the name they're using to insult us.

Not "the name they're using to try to insult us, but "to insult us," implying that it worked. Can't do that and keep wearing it. Kinda like wearing a badge even though everyone knows that the pinback is embedded into your chest.

Mushtang clearly explained what he meant. He clarified his earlier comment quite plainly. Why can't you accept that?

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

are there any local cachers anywhere making sure the urbans are legal?

 

Yes, altho trying to get a missing and abandoned cache archived seems to be quite difficult in my area.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking

[+Snoogans]

Yet another example of what I was talking about....

The DOETL are people that never ask people what they think. Instead they constantly assume people are attacking. When in fact if they actually read the ENTIRE thread they would find that people are actually looking for better ways to filter caches that they don't enjoy.

 

Classic TG. Luv ya man.

 

The name of this thread is what?

 

Spew Be Gone!, The obliteration of lame micros

 

The O.P.

Geocaching is speeding rapidly towards critical mass. When a newbie joins geocaching, they will pick a couple caches close to home to go hunt. More often than not (especially in the cities), they are going to find some micro spew. They will assume (rightly so) that this must be the way the game is played. So when it's time for them to place a cache, they place what they know, thus creating more garbage, speeding even more rapidly towards critical mass.

 

1) The vast majority of newbies do not join caching organizations, they go it alone and rely on their own experiences (so training is not a solution)

 

2) Doing nothing will not alleviate the problem (although some folks don't mind this option).

 

The Question: Besides #1 and #2, what ways can you come up with to combat micro spew? How can we put a stop to it?

 

The second post also by the O.P.

I'll go first.. If everyone did the following, the problem would go away.

 

CITO -- Cache in, Trash Out......

 

I understand that TG believes the thread has progressed. My point is that a more constructive thread needs to be posted to accomplish that end.... If that could ever be accomplished.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Snoogans

[+KBI]

So, sure, let's keep hiding them urban micros without permission , folks! Imagine the fun it'll be when the stuff finally hits the fan!

Could you please take your discussion of guideline abuses to a thread where it has some relevance?

 

(Like I said. The claim gets made ... I ask for proof ... but then instead of proof or supporting arguments, along comes the obfuscation.)