Quick question

[+Rockin Roddy]

...I often wonder why people think they are entitled to do what they will, it's crazy to me. But then, I suppose it's far easier to plead ignorance if they never try and are asked about it.

 

And Egami...it's not grey at all...if you don't own it and you don't know of a policy allowing what you propose...ASK!

We are entitled to live in this world. Much of the world spends a lot of time putting limitations on what live means. At one time our ancestors could roam the lands. Nobody owned the land, or perhaps it would be more accurate to say we all owned the land. Somewhere along the way someone claimed to own all the land and had the force to back it up. Then Nobles managed the lands on their behalf and serfs worked it. Same land the former free men lived on before but now it belongs to someone else and they are just peasants.

 

Toss in a bunch of history and now you have the working class trying to both own land their own small plot and recreate on a much larger area with geocaching, fishing, and other activities that take up more space than our own dinky lot we rent or own.

 

Geocaching is a fair use of publicly accessable lands. One of many fair uses. A world of private property with fences and no trespassing signs on every last bit of ground is no world to live in. I don't yell at the neighbor kids if they stop and pick a rose from my yard. Why would I? I mostly ignore my roses. They grow like weeds. Besides, I was once that kid playing hide and seek in the neighborhood and not just the yards of the kids participating that day.

 

It pays to remember our roots while we debate the issue of adequate permission.

 

I agree with EVERYTHING you said...BUT...it's still not ours (hasn't been since the nobles took over as you pointed out). So where is the entitlement? Many lands have restrictions to many activities, we're not being singled out. ASKING permission is THE only true way to have "entitlement" to use that land as we want. If you feel so strongly that we should be allowed, prove your case and there you go. It's been done, it isn't as hard as some make it out to be!

 

The problems start when someone THINKS they should be able to do as they please and don't ask or follow guidelines. Then we have the danger of getting caching banned in parks or Wally World (heaven forbid they ban us from there). Working through the proper channels and having good relations with those we want permission from seems to help tremendously....go figure!

 

Truly, our roots have diddly to do with today!

[+Glenn]

Ah yes, the "adequate" argument. I completely agree that Frisbee and geocaching aren't the same and there are differences, however I was not asking questions about Frisbee to imply that they were the same. My only point was to show that the permission issue is the same for me and for a lot of other people, and to ask you how you felt about Frisbee players asking for permission. I'm not following you at all with your point that the geocaching players aren't all on the field at the same time. I'm not even sure what that means.

 

I do believe the permission issue to be different. I may be wrong but as far as I know Frisbee players don't often go around leaving micro Frisbees under the skirts of lamp posts or hide their Frisbees under a bunch of sticks at the base of a tree.

 

You also say "A park may have guidelines of its own spelling out where the recreational areas are and the recreational equipment available for use. If not then it is up to the cache owner to ask." However I doubt any park would include every possible behavior that is allowed, and therefore they have a lot of general statements that would cover allowable things such as Frisbee, running, walking, practicing Yoga, having a handstand contest, etc. They probably also wouldn't have statements to specify every single thing that isn't allowed, so I also doubt any park would allow screaming contests, digging for gold, throwing nails at kids, etc. Their general statements include verbiage to disallow these things too. So, if some county park had some general statements allowing recreational activities but didn't specify Frisbee, would you feel that it would be up to you to ask before you played? It's clear you feel it's up to you to ask before you hide a cache, so I'm just asking.

 

You ask what happens when a cache owner checks that box and didn't get adequate permission to place their cache? I'd argue that they DID have adequate permission, or at least thought they did based on their interpretation of the rules. So they weren't lying when they checked the box. It's entirely possible that park staff will ask you what you're doing when looking for a cache just as they might ask you what you're doing if you're doing anything else they're not familiar with. This doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong. You don't like the fact that sometimes finders are the ones that end up talking to park staff instead of the hider. So then this goes back to it sounding like you expect express permission for all caches in parks. Am I following you correctly?

 

We clearly disagree on when adequate permission can be assumed, and when express permission is required in parks, when it comes to geocaching.

 

 

I also said "Before placing a cache one should make themselves aware of the rules and regulations of the area they plan to place their cache. We all know that geocaching is rarely spelled out in the rules and regulations of most places. This is were common sense has to come in".

 

Parks that have trail will sometimes have a limit on how far off the trail you are allowed. If for example that limit is 10 feet then you shouldn't place a cache where the cache hunter would be questioned as to why they strayed too far off the trail. If a park has a field that is designated for soccer and football use only then it wouldn't be a good idea to use that field for anything else unless you ask for permission first. However, if the same area is designated as general recreation then other uses are okay.

 

However, any time you are in doubt you should ask someone in authority. This should be done by the cache owner and not be left up to the cache hunters. Hence the check box confirming that you the cache owner has followed the guidelines when placing the cache.

 

I'm still curious if you think this is the same for playing Frisbee or not.

 

I'm a geocacher not a Frisbee player.

[+Glenn]

Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission.

It's a simple test. Do you have it? Or not?

 

Exactly! Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission. However, it does involve the cache owner knowing or discovering if geocaching will or will not be tolerated. If similar activities are tolerated then it can be safely assumed that geocaching is also.

[Mushtang]

Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission.

It's a simple test. Do you have it? Or not?

 

Exactly! Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission. However, it does involve the cache owner knowing or discovering if geocaching will or will not be tolerated. If similar activities are tolerated then it can be safely assumed that geocaching is also.

Like playing Frisbee?

[+Glenn]

Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission.

It's a simple test. Do you have it? Or not?

 

Exactly! Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission. However, it does involve the cache owner knowing or discovering if geocaching will or will not be tolerated. If similar activities are tolerated then it can be safely assumed that geocaching is also.

Like playing Frisbee?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of where something gets left behind like summit logs. I may be wrong but as far as I know Frisbee players don't often go around leaving micro Frisbees under the skirts of lamp posts or hide their Frisbees under a bunch of sticks at the base of a tree.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission.

It's a simple test. Do you have it? Or not?

 

Exactly! Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission. However, it does involve the cache owner knowing or discovering if geocaching will or will not be tolerated. If similar activities are tolerated then it can be safely assumed that geocaching is also.

Like playing Frisbee?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of where something gets left behind like summit logs. I may be wrong but as far as I know Frisbee players don't often go around leaving micro Frisbees under the skirts of lamp posts or hide their Frisbees under a bunch of sticks at the base of a tree.

 

Or maybe Letterboxing...something which requires someone to leave an object hidden.

 

Around here, our state parks allowed treasure hunting with those metal detectors, did they allow caching as well?? Nope, not freely. We were forced to pay a fee per hide to use our parks. The treasure guys, they just paid the regular park entrance fee. Had someone just assumed it allowed, we'd have had a hard battle getting the deal MiGO now has...which was worked out through the proper channels!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission.

It's a simple test. Do you have it? Or not?

 

Exactly! Adequate permission may not require obtaining any permission. However, it does involve the cache owner knowing or discovering if geocaching will or will not be tolerated. If similar activities are tolerated then it can be safely assumed that geocaching is also.

Like playing Frisbee?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of where something gets left behind like summit logs. I may be wrong but as far as I know Frisbee players don't often go around leaving micro Frisbees under the skirts of lamp posts or hide their Frisbees under a bunch of sticks at the base of a tree.

 

Or maybe Letterboxing...something which requires someone to leave an object hidden.

 

Around here, our state parks allowed treasure hunting with those metal detectors, did they allow caching as well?? Nope, not freely. We were forced to pay a fee per hide to use our parks. The treasure guys, they just paid the regular park entrance fee. Had someone just assumed it allowed, we'd have had a hard battle getting the deal MiGO now has...which was worked out through the proper channels!

[+sbell111]

Around here, our state parks allowed treasure hunting with those metal detectors, did they allow caching as well?? Nope, not freely. We were forced to pay a fee per hide to use our parks. The treasure guys, they just paid the regular park entrance fee. Had someone just assumed it allowed, we'd have had a hard battle getting the deal MiGO now has...which was worked out through the proper channels!

I wonder if you don't have it exactly backwards.

 

Perhaps the metal detector people noted that there was no rule against it, so they went ahead and did it. Alternatively, perhaps some cacher pushed for formal permission, thereby forcing the park ptb to write policy (and resulting in a fee).

Edited January 8, 2008 by sbell111

[+Rockin Roddy]

Not a straw man when left in context, used to make the same type of point as your frisbee argument.

Oh really? A Frisbee is a benign recreational activity, very similar to caching. 4 Wheeling on a golf course is the same type of point? I think not.

 

Frisbee is FAR different than caching, isn't it? When you're done with the frisbee, you take it home unlike the cache container. Can a frisbee be construed as trash or WORSE (like a bomb)?? (and you'll lilely say YES a frisbee CAN be trash...when someone picks up said "trash", they KNOW what they're picking up...right??) I'm pretty sure most of us understand that there's a need for permission to use the lands in such manners...would you just take the horses into a city park and start riding? You MIGHT get away with it once or twice, but I'll BET there'll be a ban on them as soon as it's found out! Similarly, ONE person complains of someone sneaking about in a park (or Wal-Mart lot) and there's bound to be problems!

I wouldn't take horses into a city park and start riding either, this is another straw man, just like your 4 Wheeling on a golf course example. Both of them are things that would damage the area and permission could not be assumed. A recreational activity, such as Frisbee, in a public recreational park, is completely different than a damaging activity, such as 4 wheeling or horseback riding, on a private golf course.

 

Wal-Mart owns their LPS, you don't....it's fairly simple.

The parks department owns the trees that I might hide a cache behind. They own the bathrooms that I might change my clothes in. They own the land that I might throw a Frisbee on.

 

And...do you want to seriously try the same argument?? "Using the lampost as it's intended"...really?? Is a lampost intended to be used to hide caches?? Wow, never knew that!!

Yes, I'll use the same argument. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that you shouldn't change clothes in a bathroom that wasn't intended to be a changing room, I'm saying that it's okay. You can assume that they wouldn't care if you changed clothes and you don't need to ask express permission to change your clothes there. If I were to hide an LPC in Walmart I wouldn't think that I'd need express permission to do so. I'd check the boxes and claim that I had adequate permission.

 

There are plenty of places land is restricted to some uses and other uses are banned...trails for horses while mountain biking is banned, 4 wheel trails where horses are banned....lands can have MANY uses banned for any reason the owner feels! ASSuming you can just drive into a parking lot and use their lamp post....what next?

I'm not sure what you're leading to, but it's probably against forum guidelines to capitalize the letters like you did. What's next?

 

If public trails are off limits for horses, they'll have signs posted that they're off limits for horses. If so, I wouldn't take a horse on one. If for some reason I wanted to ride my horse on public trails through forest area and didn't see a sign, I'd assume it was okay, and wouldn't feel the need for express permission. I wouldn't feel it was okay to ride a horse through trails in a county park however, because I'd know that the horses can be damaging to trails as well as leave piles on the trail that aren't acceptable in a busy park.

 

This is why the Frisbee test works really well. It's usually a benign recreational activity. Horseback riding and 4 wheeling are usually not.

 

Mushtang....it's geocaching! No one is talking about frisbees here.... Caching isn't benign either in many muggles' eyes...that's fairly simple to understand!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Around here, our state parks allowed treasure hunting with those metal detectors, did they allow caching as well?? Nope, not freely. We were forced to pay a fee per hide to use our parks. The treasure guys, they just paid the regular park entrance fee. Had someone just assumed it allowed, we'd have had a hard battle getting the deal MiGO now has...which was worked out through the proper channels!

I wonder if you don't have it exactly backwards.

 

Perhaps the metal detector people noted that there was no rule against it, so they went ahead and did it. Alternatively, perhaps some cacher pushed for formal permission, thereby forcing the park ptb to write policy (and resulting in a fee).

You're assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not the one who made this statement, the state parks manager TOLD me that personally. Nothing backwards...but thanks!

 

You might check with our friends at MiGO for the info on how the parks came about charging the hefty fee ($30)...before my time.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Rockin Roddy]

If your position was correct, why don't the guidelines simply say 'By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have permission to hide your cache in the selected location'. By your logic, the only permission that is adequate is 'express' permission. Therefore, the word 'adequate' is confusing and unnecessary.

 

I rather believe that the guideline is worded as it was meant to be. 'Adequate' permission is required. This permission requirement will be different from cache to cache, location to location.

You can not assure permission if you are assuming you have it. Period.

Pssst. You forgot a word from the guidelines.

It doesn't matter. Adequate, explicit, or whatever...you can't assure it.

Surely, you agree that if it is a location that requires no permission, then no permission needs to be requested in order to meet the guidelines, correct?

Sure...but where is that?

Many places.

 

If you agree that if no permission is needed then you don't have to ask permission, why are you having trouble with the overall concept of 'adequate permission'.

I believe you always need to assure them you have adequate permission.

You assure them of this by checking a box.

 

Care to elaborate?

[Mushtang]

Mushtang....it's geocaching! No one is talking about frisbees here.... Caching isn't benign either in many muggles' eyes...that's fairly simple to understand!

No one? I think I am. I think Sbell was.

 

The Frisbee test isn't something I made up, it's been around for a long time. If you feel okay playing Frisbee somewhere without express permission then you're probably okay hiding a cache there without express permission.

 

I've asked several times if people felt that they needed to get express permission to play Frisbee in an empty corner of a Walmart parking lot, or in a public park. So far nobody has answered the question. It's fairly simple to understand why.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Mushtang....it's geocaching! No one is talking about frisbees here.... Caching isn't benign either in many muggles' eyes...that's fairly simple to understand!

No one? I think I am. I think Sbell was.

 

The Frisbee test isn't something I made up, it's been around for a long time. If you feel okay playing Frisbee somewhere without express permission then you're probably okay hiding a cache there without express permission.

 

I've asked several times if people felt that they needed to get express permission to play Frisbee in an empty corner of a Walmart parking lot, or in a public park. So far nobody has answered the question. It's fairly simple to understand why.

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

Edited January 8, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

Around here, our state parks allowed treasure hunting with those metal detectors, did they allow caching as well?? Nope, not freely. We were forced to pay a fee per hide to use our parks. The treasure guys, they just paid the regular park entrance fee. Had someone just assumed it allowed, we'd have had a hard battle getting the deal MiGO now has...which was worked out through the proper channels!

I wonder if you don't have it exactly backwards.

 

Perhaps the metal detector people noted that there was no rule against it, so they went ahead and did it. Alternatively, perhaps some cacher pushed for formal permission, thereby forcing the park ptb to write policy (and resulting in a fee).

You're assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not the one who made this statement, the state parks manager TOLD me that personally. Nothing backwards...but thanks!

 

You might check with our friends at MiGO for the info on how the parks came about charging the hefty fee ($30)...before my time.

Of course it was before your time. Therefore, perhaps you have no idea why fees are required for geocaching, but not for metal detecting. My hypothesis speaks to this disparity. Yours does not.

[+sbell111]

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

Be careful piling your argument on what outside eyes MIGHT think. Certainly, someone may not think that frisbee throwing is benign and may be very suspicious of people who are merely playing hide & seek.

 

I refuse to limit my activities solely based on what Mrs. Kravitz MIGHT think of them.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Around here, our state parks allowed treasure hunting with those metal detectors, did they allow caching as well?? Nope, not freely. We were forced to pay a fee per hide to use our parks. The treasure guys, they just paid the regular park entrance fee. Had someone just assumed it allowed, we'd have had a hard battle getting the deal MiGO now has...which was worked out through the proper channels!

I wonder if you don't have it exactly backwards.

 

Perhaps the metal detector people noted that there was no rule against it, so they went ahead and did it. Alternatively, perhaps some cacher pushed for formal permission, thereby forcing the park ptb to write policy (and resulting in a fee).

You're assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not the one who made this statement, the state parks manager TOLD me that personally. Nothing backwards...but thanks!

 

You might check with our friends at MiGO for the info on how the parks came about charging the hefty fee ($30)...before my time.

Of course it was before your time. Therefore, perhaps you have no idea why fees are required for geocaching, but not for metal detecting. My hypothesis speaks to this disparity. Yours does not.

 

Ummmm....did you miss the part where THE PARK MANAGER told me about the detector dealy....he said they've ALWAYS let them use the lands...but the DNR was against the caching. The fact that the detectors were allowed long before caching was even thought of tells me that the PTB considered caching much less benign than digging for coins! If I had to guess as to the reason, I'd say it was the same reason most parks banned it at first....bad perception of the sport!

 

Probably MUCH less benign than playing frisbee...hey Mushtang??

[+Rockin Roddy]

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

Be careful piling your argument on what outside eyes MIGHT think. Certainly, someone may not think that frisbee throwing is benign and may be very suspicious of people who are merely playing hide & seek.

 

I refuse to limit my activities solely based on what Mrs. Kravitz MIGHT think of them.

Really, how many frisbee players have had their frisbee blown up by the bomb squad??

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

You assure them of this by checking a box.

No, by checking the box you are doing no more than agreeing to the terms. That doesn't mean you aren't deliberately, or accidentally, violating them.

You are kind of correct. If I assure you that I have done something, that certainly doesn't mean that I'm not lying, but I am giving you my assurance. If a reviewer believes that a cacher has lied about this in the past, you can bet that he'll take a closer look at the cacher's future submissions.

 

Like this one:

 

Idaho State Police News Release

9/27/2005

 

"Geo-cache treasure" turns into trouble S uspected bomb under SH-55 bridge closes road for six hours.

 

What probably started as an innocent game kicked law enforcement, transportation, and public safety officials into high gear Tuesday morning just after 9:00 a.m. when a suspicious object was found under what is referred to by many as the 'Rainbow Bridge.' The historic bridge which spans the North Fork of the Payette River thirteen miles south of Cascade was closed for six hours while a Boise Police Department Bomb squad was summoned and officials worried over a suspiciously rigged plastic bucket suspended under the bridge and secured with ropes and wires. Copper wires extended from the bucket and at the top of the bridge, a bouquet of flowers were placed. It was only later in the afternoon at about 2:15 p.m. when the person who had placed the object came to the scene to reveal the object was a 'geo-cache ', an object hidden to be found by others using GPS (global positioning satellite) devices in a kind of electronic treasure hunt. (Info on geo caching here -- www.geocaching.com/faq/ ) The object was initially spotted by Rick Smith, an Idaho Transportation Department bridge inspector who was conducting a routine inspection of the bridge. Upon spotting the device, he immediately alerted the Valley County Sheriff's Office who then contacted the Idaho State Police and Idaho Transportation Department to close the highway five miles in each direction from the bridge. Although some traffic was rerouted with a pilot car over the Smith's Ferry Road, larger trucks were made to wait and traffic backed up for miles along SH-55. Motorists were also instructed to use SH-95 as an alternate route. Traffic was resumed just before 4:00 p.m. Valley County officials have not arrested the 33-year-old Meridian man who placed the object, but are considering possible charges as the investigation continues.

 

Boise Police Department Bomb Squad officials report this is not the first time a geo-cache object has raised the eyebrows of police. Though they have not previously mobilized a full response to such an object, they have taken calls and been alerted on several previous occasions when similar objects were found. "Geo-cachers have rules that speak to the kinds of objects that should not be hidden and locations where they should not be placed such as on public structures, in historic areas, and in spots where they might be interpreted to be terrorist threats," said Boise Police Information Officer, Lynn Hightower. "This location, under a historic bridge on a main highway, over a railroad track along a scenic river broke probably every rule. It's a good example of why people who engage in this game must be familiar with the rules and use common sense."

 

Just wait till that guy tries to get another cache listed!

[+Rockin Roddy]

You assure them of this by checking a box.

No, by checking the box you are doing no more than agreeing to the terms. That doesn't mean you aren't deliberately, or accidentally, violating them.

You are kind of correct. If I assure you that I have done something, that certainly doesn't mean that I'm not lying, but I am giving you my assurance. If a reviewer believes that a cacher has lied about this in the past, you can bet that he'll take a closer look at the cacher's future submissions.

 

Like this one:

 

Idaho State Police News Release

9/27/2005

 

"Geo-cache treasure" turns into trouble S uspected bomb under SH-55 bridge closes road for six hours.

 

What probably started as an innocent game kicked law enforcement, transportation, and public safety officials into high gear Tuesday morning just after 9:00 a.m. when a suspicious object was found under what is referred to by many as the 'Rainbow Bridge.' The historic bridge which spans the North Fork of the Payette River thirteen miles south of Cascade was closed for six hours while a Boise Police Department Bomb squad was summoned and officials worried over a suspiciously rigged plastic bucket suspended under the bridge and secured with ropes and wires. Copper wires extended from the bucket and at the top of the bridge, a bouquet of flowers were placed. It was only later in the afternoon at about 2:15 p.m. when the person who had placed the object came to the scene to reveal the object was a 'geo-cache ', an object hidden to be found by others using GPS (global positioning satellite) devices in a kind of electronic treasure hunt. (Info on geo caching here -- www.geocaching.com/faq/ ) The object was initially spotted by Rick Smith, an Idaho Transportation Department bridge inspector who was conducting a routine inspection of the bridge. Upon spotting the device, he immediately alerted the Valley County Sheriff's Office who then contacted the Idaho State Police and Idaho Transportation Department to close the highway five miles in each direction from the bridge. Although some traffic was rerouted with a pilot car over the Smith's Ferry Road, larger trucks were made to wait and traffic backed up for miles along SH-55. Motorists were also instructed to use SH-95 as an alternate route. Traffic was resumed just before 4:00 p.m. Valley County officials have not arrested the 33-year-old Meridian man who placed the object, but are considering possible charges as the investigation continues.

 

Boise Police Department Bomb Squad officials report this is not the first time a geo-cache object has raised the eyebrows of police. Though they have not previously mobilized a full response to such an object, they have taken calls and been alerted on several previous occasions when similar objects were found. "Geo-cachers have rules that speak to the kinds of objects that should not be hidden and locations where they should not be placed such as on public structures, in historic areas, and in spots where they might be interpreted to be terrorist threats," said Boise Police Information Officer, Lynn Hightower. "This location, under a historic bridge on a main highway, over a railroad track along a scenic river broke probably every rule. It's a good example of why people who engage in this game must be familiar with the rules and use common sense."

 

Just wait till that guy tries to get another cache listed!

 

What???? (s)he didn't have permission?? Maybe (s)he just ASSUMED they had "adequate" permission. Or, maybe they just lied to the reviewer....either way, the box was checked...right??

[Mushtang]

Mushtang....it's geocaching! No one is talking about frisbees here.... Caching isn't benign either in many muggles' eyes...that's fairly simple to understand!

No one? I think I am. I think Sbell was.

 

The Frisbee test isn't something I made up, it's been around for a long time. If you feel okay playing Frisbee somewhere without express permission then you're probably okay hiding a cache there without express permission.

 

I've asked several times if people felt that they needed to get express permission to play Frisbee in an empty corner of a Walmart parking lot, or in a public park. So far nobody has answered the question. It's fairly simple to understand why.

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

Okay, that time I didn't even use the word benign, and you still won't answer the question. I can change the question to something other than Frisbee if it'll get you past that blockage.

 

All I'm trying to do is find out from you (or anyone else on your side of the discussion) at what level of activity you stop thinking express permission is required. Obviously you'd be okay parking your car, and walking across Walmart parking lots. Not a problem. Would you be willing to stop and take a picture in the parking lot (of someone's classic car you like the looks of, or anything else)? Would you be willing to sing a tune on your way? Would you be okay if someone skipped from their car to the store without asking for express permission to do so? Do you think it's required to ask permission to eat a sandwich and drink a coke while in the parking lot?

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

To be more specific, this topic is about permission to place caches. There's nothing off topic with what we're discussing. If the Frisbee test is tough to argue against then say so (or continue to ignore it and I'll know), but don't try and ban it from the thread.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

What???? (s)he didn't have permission?? Maybe (s)he just ASSUMED they had "adequate" permission. Or, maybe they just lied to the reviewer....either way, the box was checked...right??

 

Can't argue that one!

Edited January 9, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[Mushtang]

Probably MUCH less benign than playing frisbee...hey Mushtang??

Digging holes to look for lost metallic items is less benign than a container hidden under sticks, a lamp post skirt, or under a bush? Not as I understand the definition of benign.

[+sbell111]

Ummmm....did you miss the part where THE PARK MANAGER told me about the detector dealy....he said they've ALWAYS let them use the lands...but the DNR was against the caching. The fact that the detectors were allowed long before caching was even thought of tells me that the PTB considered caching much less benign than digging for coins! If I had to guess as to the reason, I'd say it was the same reason most parks banned it at first....bad perception of the sport!

 

Probably MUCH less benign than playing frisbee...hey Mushtang??

Actually, you are supporting my hypothesis. By your own admission, metal detecting is allowed because they've always been doing it. They've always done it, so they didn't need to ask. Then a cacher comes along and insists on going through the process. Voila, here's a nice policy and a fee.

 

BTW, assuming that MIGO did a proper job in negotiating the policy, there would be no 'bad perception'.

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

Be careful piling your argument on what outside eyes MIGHT think. Certainly, someone may not think that frisbee throwing is benign and may be very suspicious of people who are merely playing hide & seek.

 

I refuse to limit my activities solely based on what Mrs. Kravitz MIGHT think of them.

Really, how many frisbee players have had their frisbee blown up by the bomb squad??

I thought your argument was about permission? As history shows, permission doesn't stop the bomb squad from rolling.

 

If your argument is based on what muggles might potentially suspect, then you need to do yourself a favor and sell your GPSr on ebay because every cache and cache hunt could potentially be seen as something sinister by an outsider.

[Mushtang]

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

Be careful piling your argument on what outside eyes MIGHT think. Certainly, someone may not think that frisbee throwing is benign and may be very suspicious of people who are merely playing hide & seek.

 

I refuse to limit my activities solely based on what Mrs. Kravitz MIGHT think of them.

Really, how many frisbee players have had their frisbee blown up by the bomb squad??

My guess is zero.

 

So your point is that because Frisbee players have never had a game piece mistaken for something dangerous, and geocaching game pieces HAVE been mistaken for something dangerous, then the geocaches were somehow more dangerous?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Mushtang....it's geocaching! No one is talking about frisbees here.... Caching isn't benign either in many muggles' eyes...that's fairly simple to understand!

No one? I think I am. I think Sbell was.

 

The Frisbee test isn't something I made up, it's been around for a long time. If you feel okay playing Frisbee somewhere without express permission then you're probably okay hiding a cache there without express permission.

 

I've asked several times if people felt that they needed to get express permission to play Frisbee in an empty corner of a Walmart parking lot, or in a public park. So far nobody has answered the question. It's fairly simple to understand why.

Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on.

Okay, that time I didn't even use the word benign, and you still won't answer the question. I can change the question to something other than Frisbee if it'll get you past that blockage.

 

All I'm trying to do is find out from you (or anyone else on your side of the discussion) at what level of activity you stop thinking express permission is required. Obviously you'd be okay parking your car, and walking across Walmart parking lots. Not a problem. Would you be willing to stop and take a picture in the parking lot (of someone's classic car you like the looks of, or anything else)? Would you be willing to sing a tune on your way? Would you be okay if someone skipped from their car to the store without asking for express permission to do so? Do you think it's required to ask permission to eat a sandwich and drink a coke while in the parking lot?

 

And sorry, you guys were, but this topic is about caching....

To be more specific, this topic is about permission to place caches. There's nothing off topic with what we're discussing. If the Frisbee test is tough to argue against then say so (or continue to ignore it and I'll know), but don't try and ban it from the thread.

 

Sheesh...when you've got something worth arguing, I'll be back! Singing, skipping...that's as bad as the bathroom comment!

[Mushtang]

What???? (s)he didn't have permission?? Maybe (s)he just ASSUMED they had "adequate" permission. Or, maybe they just lied to the reviewer....either way, the box was checked...right??

Okay, now both you and AR are using a Straw Man. Nobody here is suggesting that every cache is okay to be hidden anywhere as long as permission is assumed.

 

Caches that break the guidelines for hiding (under bridges, on a railroad track, etc) are clearly bad and shouldn't have been hidden. No argument from me.

[Mushtang]

Sheesh...when you've got something worth arguing, I'll be back! Singing, skipping...that's as bad as the bathroom comment!

As long as you're ignoring my questions anyway, removing yourself from the conversation isn't going to be a problem for me.

 

Have a good night.

[+Too Tall John]

I've asked several times if people felt that they needed to get express permission to play Frisbee in an empty corner of a Walmart parking lot, or in a public park. So far nobody has answered the question. It's fairly simple to understand why.

Umm...

 

Actually:

Let's imagine that we're driving my RV across country because we want to find some of those awesome caches in Iowa. I pull into an empty area of WalMart's parking lot and drop anchor for the night. Would it be OK for us to toss a frisbee, or should I go in the store and ask permission?

First off, many Wal-Marts across the nation do not allow overnight RVing. The local store here just had to turn RVers away due to local town ordinances. So, right from the start5, the fact that asking permission is important is brought up.

 

It doesn't matter if you have an RV or not, if you want to play Frisbee in a Wal-Mart parking lot, be ready to be approached by an associate asking you to stop. Why? Liability. They don't want the risk of you getting hurt or of you damaging a customer's car or hitting another customer. Not to mention you are taking up space where an actual paying customer may want to park or drive.

 

You aren't entitled to do anything in a Wal-Mart parking lot. They let you park there so you can spend money there. That is it.

I might have not said I would get express permission to play Frisbee in a Wal-Mart parking lot, but I did say you would likely get told to stop if you were.

 

You can't lump Wal-Mart parking lots together with public parks. They are two different things.

 

Lest you have forgotten, the original question was:

After reading the posts here I'm still confused, do you need permission or not to hide a micro in a parking lot light post?

...and since Frisbee playing would be frowned upon in a store parking lot, using the Frisbee rule doesn't really apply.

 

Well, I guess it would, but the test would be a negative.

[+sbell111]

...and since Frisbee playing would be frowned upon in a store parking lot, using the Frisbee rule doesn't really apply.

 

Well, I guess it would, but the test would be a negative.

I disagree. I don't for a second think that anyone would say a word if a frisbee game broke out in a quiet corner of a parking lot.

[+Too Tall John]

...and since Frisbee playing would be frowned upon in a store parking lot, using the Frisbee rule doesn't really apply.

 

Well, I guess it would, but the test would be a negative.

I disagree. I don't for a second think that anyone would say a word if a frisbee game broke out in a quiet corner of a parking lot.

 

All those who've worked for Wal-Mart raise your hand.

 

*Hand Raised*

 

All those who've worked for Wal-Mart and seen such activities stopped, raise your hand.

 

*Hand Raised*

 

Any questions?

[+egami]

The frisbee comparison keeps getting brought up, but a game of frisbee doesn't parallel the placement of a semi-permanent object that people lurk suspiciously around parked cars with over a long period of time.

 

And talk about logical fallacies....the frisbee example screams Red Herring. Playing frisbee has very little to do with permission of placing a cache on property.

Edited January 9, 2008 by egami

[+sbell111]

...and since Frisbee playing would be frowned upon in a store parking lot, using the Frisbee rule doesn't really apply.

 

Well, I guess it would, but the test would be a negative.

I disagree. I don't for a second think that anyone would say a word if a frisbee game broke out in a quiet corner of a parking lot.

All those who've worked for Wal-Mart raise your hand.

 

*Hand Raised*

 

All those who've worked for Wal-Mart and seen such activities stopped, raise your hand.

 

*Hand Raised*

 

Any questions?

Yes. It's the same question that I asked you on other occasions when you touted your WalMart authority, but you failed to answer.

 

What was your position?

Edited January 9, 2008 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

The frisbee comparison keeps getting brought up, but a game of frisbee doesn't parallel the placement of a semi-permanent object that people lurk suspiciously around parked cars with over a long period of time.

I'm haveing trouble parsing that 'sentence' because it doesn't make sense. That being said, it's interesting how dark you make the game that you play seem. You see, when I go find a parking lot cache, I neither lurk nor do I act suspiciously nor do I take a long period of time.

And talk about logical fallacies....the frisbee example screams Red Herring. Playing frisbee has very little to do with permission of placing a cache on property.

No, but whether permission is required for these two benign activities is very analogous.

[+egami]

The frisbee comparison keeps getting brought up, but a game of frisbee doesn't parallel the placement of a semi-permanent object that people lurk suspiciously around parked cars with over a long period of time.

I'm haveing trouble parsing that 'sentence' because it doesn't make sense. That being said, it's interesting how dark you make the game that you play seem. You see, when I go find a parking lot cache, I neither lurk nor do I act suspiciously nor do I take a long period of time.

And talk about logical fallacies....the frisbee example screams Red Herring. Playing frisbee has very little to do with permission of placing a cache on property.

No, but whether permission is required for these two benign activities is very analogous.

 

That's purely your opinion. I would bet I could play frisbee without permission in more places than I could obtain permission to place a cache. That, of course, is purely subjective, but why bother with facts in the argument when subjectivity and opinion is the basis of your position.

Edited January 9, 2008 by egami

[+Too Tall John]

...and since Frisbee playing would be frowned upon in a store parking lot, using the Frisbee rule doesn't really apply.

 

Well, I guess it would, but the test would be a negative.

I disagree. I don't for a second think that anyone would say a word if a frisbee game broke out in a quiet corner of a parking lot.

All those who've worked for Wal-Mart raise your hand.

 

*Hand Raised*

 

All those who've worked for Wal-Mart and seen such activities stopped, raise your hand.

 

*Hand Raised*

 

Any questions?

Yes. It's the same question that I asked you on other occasions when you touted your WalMart authority, but you failed to answer.

 

What was your position?

You are unbelievable! I have explained my position to you before, and at least twice now have linked you back to it:

Also, given that we have no idea what kind of 'management position you held or how long ago it went away, I'll withhold my opinion as to whether or not you are qualified to guess what their actions may or may not be.

I was a Specialty Divisions manager, specifically for the Photo Lab. I handles all aspects of the lab, from budgeting, hiring, training, and maintenance. I answered directly to the District Manager, who was responsible for a good portion of Maine and New Hampshire. The company sent me to a number of seminars involving topics ranging from good management practices, union activities (from which I base my statements about allowable activities in the parking lot) to Photo Lab maint. I was heavily involved with Loss Prevention in the store (as cameras are a high risk item), and spent enough time with the LP associate to have a handle on that end of the job as well. (I even was in on a shoplifter stop where it turned out the guy had a knife. Not fun!) I left the company 4 years ago to pursue a career in outdoor ministries. In four years the policies about LP and unions have changed very little, if at all.

...Finally, your position at WalMart has not exactly been made clear, I don't believe. What exactly was your management position? You have put yourself out there as an expert in the company, but for all I know, you were the manager of the shoe department where your primary responsibility was stocking generic odor eaters.

I have, in fact, explicitly described my position at Wal-Mart. In response to your almost identical question trying to call my qualifications into question.

I've highlighted my answer for you, just to make sure. It is in red. This makes at least three times you've asked the question.

 

Any more questions?

 

That I haven't answered directly to you, several times before?

Edited January 9, 2008 by Too Tall John

[+Too Tall John]

Here's where sbell111's going next:

Finally: I have, in fact, explicitly described my position at Wal-Mart. In response to your almost identical question trying to call my qualifications into question.

Fine. You win. Take my previous post and replace the word 'shoe' with 'photo' and the term 'odor eaters' with 'disposable cameras'.

And here's my response:

Uhh... no. I hired people to do that. Did you read the rest of the post? You obviosly didn't the first time I posted it, as you needed to ask the question again. In case others are swayed by your blatant attempt to discredit me, here's what I posted:

I was a Specialty Divisions manager, specifically for the Photo Lab. I handles all aspects of the lab, from budgeting, hiring, training, and maintenance. I answered directly to the District Manager, who was responsible for a good portion of Maine and New Hampshire. The company sent me to a number of seminars involving topics ranging from good management practices, union activities (from which I base my statements about allowable activities in the parking lot) to Photo Lab maint. I was heavily involved with Loss Prevention in the store (as cameras are a high risk item), and spent enough time with the LP associate to have a handle on that end of the job as well. (I even was in on a shoplifter stop where it turned out the guy had a knife. Not fun!) I left the company 4 years ago to pursue a career in outdoor ministries.

Implying that I was a glorified stocker is a irresponsible misrepresentation of the facts. It'd be like me saying "sbell111 doesn't know what he's talking about because he's only been geocaching for six years." I even mentioned some of the direct experience I had with the topics at hand.

Frankly, even the stockmen out pushing carts at your local Wal-Mart probably have more pertinent knowledge on the subject we've been discussing than you do since they actually have had experience with Wal-Mart policies...

So, there's my qualifications, where's yours?

[+TrailGators]

I'm not going to get in the middle of this debate, but I thought I would share this tidbit. I went to Vegas this weekend and was caching with RocketMan and Flagman. Check out FM's log for one of the LPCs. What is interesting is that I did 10 urbans of which 3 were LPCs. Another couple of SD cachers did well over 170 urbans this past weekend and they guessed that half of them were LPCs. Many of the non-LPC urbans that I did were actually pretty clever.

Edited January 9, 2008 by TrailGators

[Mushtang]

So, there's my qualifications, where's yours?

Fantastic. Maybe you can answer my question to my satisfaction. Maybe not. Perhaps I can never be satisfied. We'll see.

 

My use of the Frisbee Test was not to suggest that Frisbee is or isn't allowed, or that you would or wouldn't be asked to be stopped, etc. Let me quote myself from earlier...

 

"All I'm trying to do is find out from you (or anyone else on your side of the discussion) at what level of activity you stop thinking express permission is required. Obviously you'd be okay parking your car, and walking across Walmart parking lots. Not a problem. Would you be willing to stop and take a picture in the parking lot (of someone's classic car you like the looks of, or anything else)? Would you be willing to sing a tune on your way? Would you be okay if someone skipped from their car to the store without asking for express permission to do so? Do you think it's required to ask permission to eat a sandwich and drink a coke while in the parking lot?"

 

Again, all I'm trying to do is to suggest that there ARE things you can do in a Walmart parking lot, and to get someone to suggest the level of activity at which they'd decide they should get express permission. Care to give me your answer?

[+TrailGators]

The bottom line is most people in urban areas don't seem to care. Some people routinely throw garbage on the ground in urban environments. Most of the urban spots we cached this weekend all had garbage strewn around/near them. It's really too bad. So if actual garbage is ignored what's that tell you about one film cannister/altoids container?

[Mr.Yuck]

Am I the only one who noticed that the title of this thread is "Quick Question'? Just wondering.

[+TrailGators]

Am I the only one who noticed that the title of this thread is "Quick Question'? Just wondering.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Am I the only one who noticed that the title of this thread is "Quick Question'? Just wondering.

The moderator must be on a break.

[Ferreter5]

I've asked several times if people felt that they needed to get express permission to play Frisbee in an empty corner of a Walmart parking lot, or in a public park. So far nobody has answered the question. It's fairly simple to understand why.

My personal opinion... If I store my private property on someone else's private property without their permission there very well could be trouble over the issue. I could be made to remove it; I could be sued; I could be cited for littering. Or, everything could be fine -- but I think that's a big assumption to make when it comes to private property.

[+Too Tall John]

Again, all I'm trying to do is to suggest that there ARE things you can do in a Walmart parking lot, and to get someone to suggest the level of activity at which they'd decide they should get express permission. Care to give me your answer?

Am I correct in reading your question as what is the "level of activity at which [a person] decide they should get express permission [of the parking lot owner]?"? If so, my answer is this:

 

Permission to use commercial property, in this case a parking lot, should be obtained if said use either effects the usability or functionality of that property, or if there may be rules against the activity.

 

What does this mean to the specific examples given?

• Parking your car, and walking across Walmart parking lots. These are exactly what the parking lot was designed for.
  
• Stop and take a picture in the parking lot (of someone's classic car you like the looks of, or anything else) As long as you are not: a. harassing other customers, b. keeping other customers from using the parking lot in an appropriate manner, or c. breaking other company policies (photographing prices, believe it or not, would be against the rules, mostly to keep places like K-Mart from having an easy time comparing prices), this should be OK.
  
• Sing a tune on your way. Not sure, but I think free speech covers this one. You can sing "Wal-Mart's Chief Exec is Satan" all the way into the store if you want.
  
• Skip from their car to the store. Again, as long as you are not: a. harassing other customers, or b. keeping other customers from using the parking lot in an appropriate manner (I'm pretty sure there's no company policy against skipping, so I left out c.), you should be fine.
  
• Eat a sandwich and drink a coke while in the parking lot Eating your sandwich in the car, ok. Spreading out a picnic cloth in the lot or throwing your wrappers around when you are done both effect the functionality of the lot.
  

Now, what about Geocaching?

• How does that effect the usability of the property? You're taking up space and wandering around a parking lot that is frequently busy. Usability goes down. It goes down even more when the bomb squad has to come in to deal with a geocache, as recently happened in Plano, TX. It also would go down when some geocacher watching his GPSr gets hit by the shopper backing out of their parking spot in the giant SUV.
  
• Functionality will also be perceived to be at risk when a cacher is observed tampering with the light posts, or taking the sleeves off the barrier posts right outside the doors. I personally put myself in a position to be scrutinized without realizing it until afterwards. My first LPC was at a Wal-Mart, one post down from a lamppost that had fallen over. A guy fiddling with a lamppost next to a downed one can look strangely like the downed one might not have been an accident.
  
• As to rules about caching, Wal-Mart policies strictly regulate any organized activity on its property. Anyone who has observed the Salvation Army's bell ringers or the Girl Scout Cookie peddlers standing out in the cold, 20 feet away from a nice warm haven, should realize that the company has rules that might not make sense on the surface, but that the company has in place to protect itself.
  

[+Too Tall John]

Am I the only one who noticed that the title of this thread is "Quick Question'? Just wondering.

The moderator must be on a break.

The topic is Quick Question, the OP didn't state they wanted a Quick Answer.

[Mushtang]

Thanks for answering the question, and for your extra information. I'm glad someone finally decided to continue the discussion instead of telling me my questions weren't valid. You've clearly showed that they pertain to the thread.

 

How does that effect the usability of the property? You're taking up space and wandering around a parking lot that is frequently busy. Usability goes down. It goes down even more when the bomb squad has to come in to deal with a geocache, as recently happened in Plano, TX. It also would go down when some geocacher watching his GPSr gets hit by the shopper backing out of their parking spot in the giant SUV.

I see what you're saying here for sure, in that the store wouldn't want you to take away from their business just to play your game. In my Frisbee questions earlier I tried to suggest that it was played in an empty corner of the parking lot for this reason. Obviously playing in the lane in front of the doors would be frowned upon.

 

Every LPC I've found has been located away from the front doors, and I've never had to park anywhere other than right beside them. So in my experience the geocaches aren't causing the finders to take up space or getting in the way of someone.

 

So I'd still think that a geocache hidden away from the store would be similar to a game of Frisbee played away from the store, and should be okay. As a hider I would assume adequate permission given. If I wanted to hide a geocache at the front doors, or in a place that would be in the way of shoppers, I'd assume I'd need to talk to a manager to get permission.

 

Functionality will also be perceived to be at risk when a cacher is observed tampering with the light posts, or taking the sleeves off the barrier posts right outside the doors. I personally put myself in a position to be scrutinized without realizing it until afterwards. My first LPC was at a Wal-Mart, one post down from a lamppost that had fallen over. A guy fiddling with a lamppost next to a downed one can look strangely like the downed one might not have been an accident.

This is a good example of a bad place to put one (near a fallen pole) or one that might need to be temporarily disabled (if the pole fell afterwards) just to avoid this sort of misunderstanding.

 

As a Frisbee player, if I decided to start a game right beside a window that was broken, I might be suspected of breaking the window. So I'd probably find a better place to play. And if someone else broke the window while I was playing, I'd certainly move along.

 

I think that this example is a bit of a rarity. Of all the hundreds or thousands of LPCs hidden, the number that are hidden next to some damage that the finder might be suspected of causing has got to be countable on one hand (I'm guessing). I'm also not sure that it addresses the permission issue. Even if a manager gave written permission to the hider, it's possible he'd still come outside and run up to the finder saying, "What did you do?!"

 

As to rules about caching, Wal-Mart policies strictly regulate any organized activity on its property. Anyone who has observed the Salvation Army's bell ringers or the Girl Scout Cookie peddlers standing out in the cold, 20 feet away from a nice warm haven, should realize that the company has rules that might not make sense on the surface, but that the company has in place to protect itself.

Like the park systems too. When KBI asked a local park manager if he could list the coords to his park on the geocaching website for an Earth Cache, and explained that pretty much all the finder would do is to come to the park, look around, write down the answers to a few questions, and leave, the park manager refused to give permission. Some people are so afraid of what the reaction can be if they say yes, that they take the easy road and say no just because they don't want to be the one fingers point to later.

 

That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no. I think if I asked that same park manager to give me permission to play Frisbee he'd refuse. A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate to play Frisbee, or to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot, or in a county park, provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers or park visitors.

[+Too Tall John]

...That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no...

 

...A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate... to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot... provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers...

Something here doesn't add up.

 

Should I ask for permission, knowing that the manager will say "No"?

 

Or do I just hide it in an empty section of the parking lot without asking?

 

You seem to advocate both here.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Thanks for answering the question, and for your extra information. I'm glad someone finally decided to continue the discussion instead of telling me my questions weren't valid. You've clearly showed that they pertain to the thread.

 

How does that effect the usability of the property? You're taking up space and wandering around a parking lot that is frequently busy. Usability goes down. It goes down even more when the bomb squad has to come in to deal with a geocache, as recently happened in Plano, TX. It also would go down when some geocacher watching his GPSr gets hit by the shopper backing out of their parking spot in the giant SUV.

I see what you're saying here for sure, in that the store wouldn't want you to take away from their business just to play your game. In my Frisbee questions earlier I tried to suggest that it was played in an empty corner of the parking lot for this reason. Obviously playing in the lane in front of the doors would be frowned upon.

 

Every LPC I've found has been located away from the front doors, and I've never had to park anywhere other than right beside them. So in my experience the geocaches aren't causing the finders to take up space or getting in the way of someone.

 

So I'd still think that a geocache hidden away from the store would be similar to a game of Frisbee played away from the store, and should be okay. As a hider I would assume adequate permission given. If I wanted to hide a geocache at the front doors, or in a place that would be in the way of shoppers, I'd assume I'd need to talk to a manager to get permission.

 

Functionality will also be perceived to be at risk when a cacher is observed tampering with the light posts, or taking the sleeves off the barrier posts right outside the doors. I personally put myself in a position to be scrutinized without realizing it until afterwards. My first LPC was at a Wal-Mart, one post down from a lamppost that had fallen over. A guy fiddling with a lamppost next to a downed one can look strangely like the downed one might not have been an accident.

This is a good example of a bad place to put one (near a fallen pole) or one that might need to be temporarily disabled (if the pole fell afterwards) just to avoid this sort of misunderstanding.

 

As a Frisbee player, if I decided to start a game right beside a window that was broken, I might be suspected of breaking the window. So I'd probably find a better place to play. And if someone else broke the window while I was playing, I'd certainly move along.

 

I think that this example is a bit of a rarity. Of all the hundreds or thousands of LPCs hidden, the number that are hidden next to some damage that the finder might be suspected of causing has got to be countable on one hand (I'm guessing). I'm also not sure that it addresses the permission issue. Even if a manager gave written permission to the hider, it's possible he'd still come outside and run up to the finder saying, "What did you do?!"

 

As to rules about caching, Wal-Mart policies strictly regulate any organized activity on its property. Anyone who has observed the Salvation Army's bell ringers or the Girl Scout Cookie peddlers standing out in the cold, 20 feet away from a nice warm haven, should realize that the company has rules that might not make sense on the surface, but that the company has in place to protect itself.

Like the park systems too. When KBI asked a local park manager if he could list the coords to his park on the geocaching website for an Earth Cache, and explained that pretty much all the finder would do is to come to the park, look around, write down the answers to a few questions, and leave, the park manager refused to give permission. Some people are so afraid of what the reaction can be if they say yes, that they take the easy road and say no just because they don't want to be the one fingers point to later.

 

That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no. I think if I asked that same park manager to give me permission to play Frisbee he'd refuse. A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate to play Frisbee, or to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot, or in a county park, provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers or park visitors.

 

Wow...and you're the "expert" here on how much a cache would disrupt shoppers?? Where is that "quiet corner"...ever see a WW around Christmas time? Let's see...I did one in Coldwater MI where the cache WAS near the end of the drive...the entrance end. To get that one, I had to park roughly 3 rows over (well over 50') and walk to it...cars were parked right next to it! Now, this was summer time and not a busy buying time either...and at night. Another I did was before going to a night cache. We did one in REI's parking lot, this one was smack in the middle of the lot right in front of the "doors section" (but about 50' or so away). I don't know, maybe the other people walking about thought we were praying to the lamp post while one of our group laid their GPS on the ground to re-calibrate it. Since our group arrived first (about 15 minutes or so before the rest of the groups), we parked far away from the GZ to watch others show up....this while shoppers were milling about (yes, even at night). FINALLY, after about 10 minutes a security vehicle approached and asked us if we had problems with our vehicle or anything...they'd seen a suspicious vehicle milling about and then parking in a remote location. That surely looked bad, but then...how did the 12 people all standing about in front of a lamp post in the middle of the lot holding "cell phones" and acting strangely look??

 

Lets take your "parking lot" questions a bit further here:

 

Taking a picture in the parking lot...great. Taking pictures of every lady (even the fairly young ladies)...while possibly "benign" would certainly raise flags among shoppers. Skipping throught the parking lot...fine. Skipping all through the parking lot for an hour or so...probably get you thrown off the property. As my nephew told me (he's a "lowly bagboy" at a local WW), they have rules against loitering in the lots. Sing a song if you please...great! Sit in the lot and blare your music while singing along...distracting and bothering to other customers, you'll be asked to turn it down...and you'll be watched as now, you're a suspicious character in the eyes of the "lowly bagboys"...oh, and security cams now watch you much closer...in case other actions will be needed. These amswers came directly from my nephew....he's that bagboy I talked about...at WW. What was the reason for those answers...policy! You see, even the bagboys are told how to respond to these (and many other) circumstances. And, rarely do they allow RVs at the WW my nephew works, lot is too small to start with. When they do, it's near the road in the "quiet corner"...you know, where the LPC is likely to be planted...

 

I hope that fully answers those questions....sheesh!

 

And yes, some would rather plead ignorance than ask permission...especially when they figure the answer is NO. I guess that's why sbell eluded to the theory that cachers bothered the park officials into charging to place the caches (btw sbell, since you weren't there, how do YOU know...just as you attempted to make me the fool when my response was "before my time"...oh, just guessing???)...they were silly enough to "ask" when they should have just place them and then play the ignorance card (maybe this is actually why the PTB decided to make most not want to use state parks because of the high cost...another "guess").

 

Mushtang...maybe you should ask yourself why your questions get ignored as you say....maybe it's not because others don't have an answer, but because the questions don't deserve answered In others' opinion?? Maybe it's also because your questions get answered, but you throw out another variation of the same question over and over since the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

[+sbell111]

... I have explained my position to you before, and at least twice now have linked you back to it:...

Oops, totally my fault. I completely forgot that you were the head photo guy. My apologies.

 

I still don't believe that this makes you an authority on this issue.

[Mushtang]

Thanks for answering the question, and for your extra information. I'm glad someone finally decided to continue the discussion instead of telling me my questions weren't valid. You've clearly showed that they pertain to the thread.

 

How does that effect the usability of the property? You're taking up space and wandering around a parking lot that is frequently busy. Usability goes down. It goes down even more when the bomb squad has to come in to deal with a geocache, as recently happened in Plano, TX. It also would go down when some geocacher watching his GPSr gets hit by the shopper backing out of their parking spot in the giant SUV.

I see what you're saying here for sure, in that the store wouldn't want you to take away from their business just to play your game. In my Frisbee questions earlier I tried to suggest that it was played in an empty corner of the parking lot for this reason. Obviously playing in the lane in front of the doors would be frowned upon.

 

Every LPC I've found has been located away from the front doors, and I've never had to park anywhere other than right beside them. So in my experience the geocaches aren't causing the finders to take up space or getting in the way of someone.

 

So I'd still think that a geocache hidden away from the store would be similar to a game of Frisbee played away from the store, and should be okay. As a hider I would assume adequate permission given. If I wanted to hide a geocache at the front doors, or in a place that would be in the way of shoppers, I'd assume I'd need to talk to a manager to get permission.

 

Functionality will also be perceived to be at risk when a cacher is observed tampering with the light posts, or taking the sleeves off the barrier posts right outside the doors. I personally put myself in a position to be scrutinized without realizing it until afterwards. My first LPC was at a Wal-Mart, one post down from a lamppost that had fallen over. A guy fiddling with a lamppost next to a downed one can look strangely like the downed one might not have been an accident.

This is a good example of a bad place to put one (near a fallen pole) or one that might need to be temporarily disabled (if the pole fell afterwards) just to avoid this sort of misunderstanding.

 

As a Frisbee player, if I decided to start a game right beside a window that was broken, I might be suspected of breaking the window. So I'd probably find a better place to play. And if someone else broke the window while I was playing, I'd certainly move along.

 

I think that this example is a bit of a rarity. Of all the hundreds or thousands of LPCs hidden, the number that are hidden next to some damage that the finder might be suspected of causing has got to be countable on one hand (I'm guessing). I'm also not sure that it addresses the permission issue. Even if a manager gave written permission to the hider, it's possible he'd still come outside and run up to the finder saying, "What did you do?!"

 

As to rules about caching, Wal-Mart policies strictly regulate any organized activity on its property. Anyone who has observed the Salvation Army's bell ringers or the Girl Scout Cookie peddlers standing out in the cold, 20 feet away from a nice warm haven, should realize that the company has rules that might not make sense on the surface, but that the company has in place to protect itself.

Like the park systems too. When KBI asked a local park manager if he could list the coords to his park on the geocaching website for an Earth Cache, and explained that pretty much all the finder would do is to come to the park, look around, write down the answers to a few questions, and leave, the park manager refused to give permission. Some people are so afraid of what the reaction can be if they say yes, that they take the easy road and say no just because they don't want to be the one fingers point to later.

 

That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no. I think if I asked that same park manager to give me permission to play Frisbee he'd refuse. A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate to play Frisbee, or to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot, or in a county park, provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers or park visitors.

 

Wow...and you're the "expert" here on how much a cache would disrupt shoppers?? Where is that "quiet corner"...ever see a WW around Christmas time? Let's see...I did one in Coldwater MI where the cache WAS near the end of the drive...the entrance end. To get that one, I had to park roughly 3 rows over (well over 50') and walk to it...cars were parked right next to it! Now, this was summer time and not a busy buying time either...and at night. Another I did was before going to a night cache. We did one in REI's parking lot, this one was smack in the middle of the lot right in front of the "doors section" (but about 50' or so away). I don't know, maybe the other people walking about thought we were praying to the lamp post while one of our group laid their GPS on the ground to re-calibrate it. Since our group arrived first (about 15 minutes or so before the rest of the groups), we parked far away from the GZ to watch others show up....this while shoppers were milling about (yes, even at night). FINALLY, after about 10 minutes a security vehicle approached and asked us if we had problems with our vehicle or anything...they'd seen a suspicious vehicle milling about and then parking in a remote location. That surely looked bad, but then...how did the 12 people all standing about in front of a lamp post in the middle of the lot holding "cell phones" and acting strangely look??

 

Lets take your "parking lot" questions a bit further here:

 

Taking a picture in the parking lot...great. Taking pictures of every lady (even the fairly young ladies)...while possibly "benign" would certainly raise flags among shoppers. Skipping throught the parking lot...fine. Skipping all through the parking lot for an hour or so...probably get you thrown off the property. As my nephew told me (he's a "lowly bagboy" at a local WW), they have rules against loitering in the lots. Sing a song if you please...great! Sit in the lot and blare your music while singing along...distracting and bothering to other customers, you'll be asked to turn it down...and you'll be watched as now, you're a suspicious character in the eyes of the "lowly bagboys"...oh, and security cams now watch you much closer...in case other actions will be needed. These amswers came directly from my nephew....he's that bagboy I talked about...at WW. What was the reason for those answers...policy! You see, even the bagboys are told how to respond to these (and many other) circumstances. And, rarely do they allow RVs at the WW my nephew works, lot is too small to start with. When they do, it's near the road in the "quiet corner"...you know, where the LPC is likely to be planted...

 

I hope that fully answers those questions....sheesh!

 

And yes, some would rather plead ignorance than ask permission...especially when they figure the answer is NO. I guess that's why sbell eluded to the theory that cachers bothered the park officials into charging to place the caches (btw sbell, since you weren't there, how do YOU know...just as you attempted to make me the fool when my response was "before my time"...oh, just guessing???)...they were silly enough to "ask" when they should have just place them and then play the ignorance card (maybe this is actually why the PTB decided to make most not want to use state parks because of the high cost...another "guess").

 

Mushtang...maybe you should ask yourself why your questions get ignored as you say....maybe it's not because others don't have an answer, but because the questions don't deserve answered In others' opinion?? Maybe it's also because your questions get answered, but you throw out another variation of the same question over and over since the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

 

Wow. If you're calling me the expert at how much a cache would disrupt, then I'm calling you the King of Straw Man arguments.

 

I was pretty clear that I advocated playing games (Frisbee, geocaching, etc) in empty corners of the parking lot, and not in the busy area in front of the store. You then proceed to reply as though I suggested that every parking lot has a quiet corner, and gave me examples of busy lots that had no empty corners. You then said that you and a group decided to look for one 50' in front of the main door, at night, and your group obviously had no idea what acting stealthy in public meant. This was supposed to prove that it's not possible to hide an LPC that could be found without disrupting? I'm not sure what the point was.

 

Then you mention other activities I asked about such as taking pictures of cars, and replied that doing something super creepy like taking pictures of every lady would be a bad idea. Um... you think????

 

I had asked about singing to yourself as you walk to the store from your car, and you replied that blaring your music distracting customers while loitering in your car singing would make you suspicious. Um... you think???

 

At some point (I hope) you'll reply to what I said, and not to the worst possible case of things that I didn't say.

 

I hope that fully answers those questions....sheesh!

 

Heh heh heh. Um... not even close. Nice try though.