Quick question

[Mushtang]

...That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no...

 

...A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate... to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot... provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers...

Something here doesn't add up.

 

Should I ask for permission, knowing that the manager will say "No"?

 

Or do I just hide it in an empty section of the parking lot without asking?

 

You seem to advocate both here.

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I meant that expecting them to say no is NOT a reason you shouldn't ask. If you're in a situation where you, as a hider, feel that express permission is required, then definitely ask, even if you expect the answer to be no. And if it is, then you're out of luck and shouldn't hide one there.

 

I'm saying that a lot of times folks say no, not because they think it'll be a problem, but because they don't want to put themselves on record as being responsible. The example I gave of KBI asking permission to list the Earth Cache which didn't even involve hiding a cache, just people standing, looking around, and leaving, they said no. (Eventually he went high enough and got someone to say yes)

 

My point is, if I go to a county park to play Frisbee, I'll just go play and not ask permission. I know that playing Frisbee is okay, and I also know that someone might refuse to give me permission to play Frisbee simply to avoid responsibility.

 

If I went to a park where I didn't think it was okay to play Frisbee (Stone Mountain park just outside of Atlanta doesn't allow it before the laser show because the grassy area is too crowded) then I wouldn't play. If I really really really wanted to play there, I'd ask permission, be told no, and then I wouldn't play.

[+sbell111]

Wow. That's a long post with a lot of 'issues'.

Wow...and you're the "expert" here on how much a cache would disrupt shoppers?? Where is that "quiet corner"...ever see a WW around Christmas time? Let's see...I did one in Coldwater MI where the cache WAS near the end of the drive...the entrance end. To get that one, I had to park roughly 3 rows over (well over 50') and walk to it...cars were parked right next to it! Now, this was summer time and not a busy buying time either...and at night.

Did the presence of your car in the lot for two minutes disrupt WalMart's business? I rather believe that cachers being attracted to WalMart because a cache is in the lot tends to enhance the company's business, ever so slightly, in the same manner as RVers parking in the lot.

Another I did was before going to a night cache. We did one in REI's parking lot, this one was smack in the middle of the lot right in front of the "doors section" (but about 50' or so away). I don't know, maybe the other people walking about thought we were praying to the lamp post while one of our group laid their GPS on the ground to re-calibrate it. Since our group arrived first (about 15 minutes or so before the rest of the groups), we parked far away from the GZ to watch others show up....this while shoppers were milling about (yes, even at night). FINALLY, after about 10 minutes a security vehicle approached and asked us if we had problems with our vehicle or anything...they'd seen a suspicious vehicle milling about and then parking in a remote location. That surely looked bad, but then...how did the 12 people all standing about in front of a lamp post in the middle of the lot holding "cell phones" and acting strangely look??

A couple things come to mind. First, I would think that a cache in REI's lot actually has a fairly large chance of having at least tacit permission. Second, I don't think that I have ever been in a parking lot looking for a cache for more than a couple of minutes. Third, you chose to look suspicious, why are you surprised that security took interest in you?

Lets take your "parking lot" questions a bit further here:

 

Taking a picture in the parking lot...great. Taking pictures of every lady (even the fairly young ladies)...while possibly "benign" would certainly raise flags among shoppers. Skipping throught the parking lot...fine.

The example was taking pictures of cool cars.

Skipping all through the parking lot for an hour or so...probably get you thrown off the property. As my nephew told me (he's a "lowly bagboy" at a local WW), they have rules against loitering in the lots.

Who mentioned an hour? No one caches in a parking lot for an hour.

Sing a song if you please...great! Sit in the lot and blare your music while singing along...distracting and bothering to other customers, you'll be asked to turn it down...and you'll be watched as now, you're a suspicious character in the eyes of the "lowly bagboys"...oh, and security cams now watch you much closer...in case other actions will be needed.

Again, you're twisting the examples until they break. Have you even answered the question posed?

These amswers came directly from my nephew....he's that bagboy I talked about...at WW. What was the reason for those answers...policy! You see, even the bagboys are told how to respond to these (and many other) circumstances. And, rarely do they allow RVs at the WW my nephew works, lot is too small to start with. When they do, it's near the road in the "quiet corner"...you know, where the LPC is likely to be planted...

 

I hope that fully answers those questions....sheesh!

I am certainly not trying to insult your nephew, but a bagboy is perhaps not the right person to give advice on this or almost any other issue.

And yes, some would rather plead ignorance than ask permission...especially when they figure the answer is NO. I guess that's why sbell eluded to the theory that cachers bothered the park officials into charging to place the caches (btw sbell, since you weren't there, how do YOU know...just as you attempted to make me the fool when my response was "before my time"...oh, just guessing???)...they were silly enough to "ask" when they should have just place them and then play the ignorance card (maybe this is actually why the PTB decided to make most not want to use state parks because of the high cost...another "guess").

That was not my point and I suspect you know that. My point is, if you force a decision on an issue that does not require one, you are likely not to be completely happy with the answer.

Mushtang...maybe you should ask yourself why your questions get ignored as you say....maybe it's not because others don't have an answer, but because the questions don't deserve answered In others' opinion?? Maybe it's also because your questions get answered, but you throw out another variation of the same question over and over since the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Maybe it's because an honest answer to the questions would identify serious flaws in some peoples positions.

[Ferreter5]

I'm wondering, why is it okay to store your private property (e.g. a geocache container) on someone else's private property (e.g. Walmart's parking lot) without permission to do so?

 

This can be looked at from two angles: moral and legal. Feel free to fire away at either or both.

[Mushtang]

I'm wondering, why is it okay to store your private property (e.g. a geocache container) on someone else's private property (e.g. Walmart's parking lot) without permission to do so?

 

This can be looked at from two angles: moral and legal. Feel free to fire away at either or both.

That's pretty much what's been discussed for the past 4 pages. Lots of us are firing away already.

 

Welcome to the conversation.

 

edit:

Oh, and to answer your question... adequate permission WAS obtained (according to some of us).

Edited January 9, 2008 by Mushtang

[+Rockin Roddy]

Wow. That's a long post with a lot of 'issues'.

Wow...and you're the "expert" here on how much a cache would disrupt shoppers?? Where is that "quiet corner"...ever see a WW around Christmas time? Let's see...I did one in Coldwater MI where the cache WAS near the end of the drive...the entrance end. To get that one, I had to park roughly 3 rows over (well over 50') and walk to it...cars were parked right next to it! Now, this was summer time and not a busy buying time either...and at night.

Did the presence of your car in the lot for two minutes disrupt WalMart's business? I rather believe that cachers being attracted to WalMart because a cache is in the lot tends to enhance the company's business, ever so slightly, in the same manner as RVers parking in the lot.

Another I did was before going to a night cache. We did one in REI's parking lot, this one was smack in the middle of the lot right in front of the "doors section" (but about 50' or so away). I don't know, maybe the other people walking about thought we were praying to the lamp post while one of our group laid their GPS on the ground to re-calibrate it. Since our group arrived first (about 15 minutes or so before the rest of the groups), we parked far away from the GZ to watch others show up....this while shoppers were milling about (yes, even at night). FINALLY, after about 10 minutes a security vehicle approached and asked us if we had problems with our vehicle or anything...they'd seen a suspicious vehicle milling about and then parking in a remote location. That surely looked bad, but then...how did the 12 people all standing about in front of a lamp post in the middle of the lot holding "cell phones" and acting strangely look??

A couple things come to mind. First, I would think that a cache in REI's lot actually has a fairly large chance of having at least tacit permission. Second, I don't think that I have ever been in a parking lot looking for a cache for more than a couple of minutes. Third, you chose to look suspicious, why are you surprised that security took interest in you?

Lets take your "parking lot" questions a bit further here:

 

Taking a picture in the parking lot...great. Taking pictures of every lady (even the fairly young ladies)...while possibly "benign" would certainly raise flags among shoppers. Skipping throught the parking lot...fine.

The example was taking pictures of cool cars.

Skipping all through the parking lot for an hour or so...probably get you thrown off the property. As my nephew told me (he's a "lowly bagboy" at a local WW), they have rules against loitering in the lots.

Who mentioned an hour? No one caches in a parking lot for an hour.

Sing a song if you please...great! Sit in the lot and blare your music while singing along...distracting and bothering to other customers, you'll be asked to turn it down...and you'll be watched as now, you're a suspicious character in the eyes of the "lowly bagboys"...oh, and security cams now watch you much closer...in case other actions will be needed.

Again, you're twisting the examples until they break. Have you even answered the question posed?

These amswers came directly from my nephew....he's that bagboy I talked about...at WW. What was the reason for those answers...policy! You see, even the bagboys are told how to respond to these (and many other) circumstances. And, rarely do they allow RVs at the WW my nephew works, lot is too small to start with. When they do, it's near the road in the "quiet corner"...you know, where the LPC is likely to be planted...

 

I hope that fully answers those questions....sheesh!

I am certainly not trying to insult your nephew, but a bagboy is perhaps not the right person to give advice on this or almost any other issue.[quote name='Rockin Roddy' post='3247991' date='Jan 9 2008, 05:46 AM']And yes, some would rather plead ignorance than ask permission...especially when they figure the answer is NO. I guess that's why sbell eluded to the theory that cachers bothered the park officials into charging to place the caches (btw sbell, since you weren't there, how do YOU know...just as you attempted to make me the fool when my response was "before my time"...oh, just guessing???)...they were silly enough to "ask" when they should have just place them and then play the ignorance card (maybe this is actually why the PTB decided to make most not want to use state parks because of the high cost...another "guess").

That was not my point and I suspect you know that. My point is, if you force a decision on an issue that does not require one, you are likely not to be completely happy with the answer.

Mushtang...maybe you should ask yourself why your questions get ignored as you say....maybe it's not because others don't have an answer, but because the questions don't deserve answered In others' opinion?? Maybe it's also because your questions get answered, but you throw out another variation of the same question over and over since the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Maybe it's because an honest answer to the questions would identify serious flaws in some peoples positions.

 

The question isn't whether my CAR disrupted anything, now is it? The fact that I had to walk beside parked cars which weren't mine, had to cross the busy lot etc, that's the issue here! I could have skipped it, sure. How many cachers would though (and try to be realistic with your response please).

 

What you BELIEVE and reality are two different things...can you PROVE that? See, I said much the same thing a while back when this was about parks and drumming up business for them...the majority (including some in this argument) said that was bunk.

 

There you go assuming the permission again.... When I said remote spot, I intentionally left out the fact that the "remote" spot was directly in front of the entrance (it was remote from the cache)...and directly under lighting as we were wanting to load coords w/o our dome light...so YEAH, interesting that the security homed in on us.

 

Do you work at a WW, do you know what training the bagboys get?? If not, I'll take your answer as another assumption. If you fully read TTJ comments about policy, you'd be aware that ALL employees (especially those who work outside in the lots) are trained to watch for certain activities, so I'm thinking even my nephew knows MUCH more about this than you!

 

Right...and IF you KNOW the answer will be no and you skirt asking, you purposely lied on the cache page. Not asking doesn't mean you have permission...but then, my 15 year old knows this!

 

Serious flaws as to what permission is?? Yep, honest answers lead right to private property=permission needed. Now, if we were talking about a city park, there might not be a problem and permission MIGHT not be needed (how would you know unless you either ask or deliberately place one w/o permission and play the ignorance card), we're talking PRIVATE PROPERTY...Wal-Mart owns the lot, they own and can enforce rules over any part of their lot...HUGE difference!

 

And Mushtang....King of strawman?? I took your very same snippets and expanded a bit and you now cry strawman. Look, we're talking caching here, strawman argument started with the frisbee, RVs etc...I just expanded on YOUR strawman!!

Edited January 9, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Rockin Roddy]

...That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no...

 

...A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate... to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot... provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers...

Something here doesn't add up.

 

Should I ask for permission, knowing that the manager will say "No"?

 

Or do I just hide it in an empty section of the parking lot without asking?

 

You seem to advocate both here.

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I meant that expecting them to say no is NOT a reason you shouldn't ask. If you're in a situation where you, as a hider, feel that express permission is required, then definitely ask, even if you expect the answer to be no. And if it is, then you're out of luck and shouldn't hide one there.

 

I'm saying that a lot of times folks say no, not because they think it'll be a problem, but because they don't want to put themselves on record as being responsible. The example I gave of KBI asking permission to list the Earth Cache which didn't even involve hiding a cache, just people standing, looking around, and leaving, they said no. (Eventually he went high enough and got someone to say yes)

My point is, if I go to a county park to play Frisbee, I'll just go play and not ask permission. I know that playing Frisbee is okay, and I also know that someone might refuse to give me permission to play Frisbee simply to avoid responsibility.

 

If I went to a park where I didn't think it was okay to play Frisbee (Stone Mountain park just outside of Atlanta doesn't allow it before the laser show because the grassy area is too crowded) then I wouldn't play. If I really really really wanted to play there, I'd ask permission, be told no, and then I wouldn't play.

 

In other words, KBI saw the need for permission and asked. He then was denied and went on above that person's head and eventually got permission?? So, he worked through the proper channels and GOT permission?? Proves my point exactly!

[Mushtang]

And Mushtang....King of strawman?? I took your very same snippets and expanded a bit and you now cry strawman. Look, we're talking caching here, strawman argument started with the frisbee, RVs etc...I just expanded on YOUR strawman!!

I'm convinced you don't know what a Strawman Argument is, or how the quote tags work.

[+Rockin Roddy]

And Mushtang....King of strawman?? I took your very same snippets and expanded a bit and you now cry strawman. Look, we're talking caching here, strawman argument started with the frisbee, RVs etc...I just expanded on YOUR strawman!!

I'm convinced you don't know what a Strawman Argument is, or how the quote tags work.

I guess we can chalk that up to yet another assumption....well, except maybe for the quotes...I can't get multiple quotes to work for me. That HARDLY makes my points invalid....I find the boldened comments work pretty well.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

And Mushtang....King of strawman?? I took your very same snippets and expanded a bit and you now cry strawman. Look, we're talking caching here, strawman argument started with the frisbee, RVs etc...I just expanded on YOUR strawman!!

I'm convinced you don't know what a Strawman Argument is, or how the quote tags work.

Or the difference in the submittal guidelines between an earthcache and other types of caches.

[Mushtang]

...That's not to say that you shouldn't ask since you know the answer will be no...

 

...A Walmart manager would almost certainly say no if you asked for express permission to photograph cars in the lot, or to do any of the other things I'd mentioned.

 

I still wouldn't hesitate... to hide a geocache, in an empty section of a Walmart parking lot... provided I followed common sense and I didn't try to block cars or bother any shoppers...

Something here doesn't add up.

 

Should I ask for permission, knowing that the manager will say "No"?

 

Or do I just hide it in an empty section of the parking lot without asking?

 

You seem to advocate both here.

I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I meant that expecting them to say no is NOT a reason you shouldn't ask. If you're in a situation where you, as a hider, feel that express permission is required, then definitely ask, even if you expect the answer to be no. And if it is, then you're out of luck and shouldn't hide one there.

 

I'm saying that a lot of times folks say no, not because they think it'll be a problem, but because they don't want to put themselves on record as being responsible. The example I gave of KBI asking permission to list the Earth Cache which didn't even involve hiding a cache, just people standing, looking around, and leaving, they said no. (Eventually he went high enough and got someone to say yes)

My point is, if I go to a county park to play Frisbee, I'll just go play and not ask permission. I know that playing Frisbee is okay, and I also know that someone might refuse to give me permission to play Frisbee simply to avoid responsibility.

 

If I went to a park where I didn't think it was okay to play Frisbee (Stone Mountain park just outside of Atlanta doesn't allow it before the laser show because the grassy area is too crowded) then I wouldn't play. If I really really really wanted to play there, I'd ask permission, be told no, and then I wouldn't play.

 

In other words, KBI saw the need for permission and asked. He then was denied and went on above that person's head and eventually got permission?? So, he worked through the proper channels and GOT permission?? Proves my point exactly!

Yes, he kept asking until he got permission, because it was a situation he needed to get express permission (Earth Cache rules). I've agreed with this and have said so several times. If you're looking to hide a cache, and you feel that express permission is needed in order to satisfy the "adequate" requirement, then you should most definitely get it. If you cannot get express permission for that location, don't hide the cache. This doesn't contradict anything I've said in this thread that I'm aware of.

 

There are a lot of areas where adequate permission for all kinds of activities has already been granted due to the nature of the location, and express permission for all kinds of activities is not required.

 

I'm happy that it also proved a point of yours, but I'm not sure what the point is since you didn't elaborate.

[Mushtang]

I can't get multiple quotes to work for me. That HARDLY makes my points invalid....I find the boldened comments work pretty well.

Agreed, but it does make it impossible for me to discuss the validity of your points if I can't find the points you're making in the mess.

 

I'll assume you made some really good points and put me in my place.

 

BTW, this is still fun for me, and I'm hoping it's fun discussion for you too. We disagree on some things but I wouldn't hesitate to go caching with you, or buy you a beer afterwards.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I can't get multiple quotes to work for me. That HARDLY makes my points invalid....I find the boldened comments work pretty well.

Agreed, but it does make it impossible for me to discuss the validity of your points if I can't find the points you're making in the mess.

 

I'll assume you made some really good points and put me in my place.

 

BTW, this is still fun for me, and I'm hoping it's fun discussion for you too. We disagree on some things but I wouldn't hesitate to go caching with you, or buy you a beer afterwards.

 

No fear Mushtang, I may come across harsh, but it's not my meaning at all, I'm really an old softie (and don't ever mention that...I'll deny...oh, you got it in writing...OUCH)

 

While not a drinker any more, I'd glady cache with you and even sip a "soda" afterwards!! Believe me, if I wasn't having fun, I wouldn't be here!!

 

I feel I got a "victory" here...and now know how to slow an argument...ignorance can sometimes be bliss

 

Carry on...I'm off to the License bureau...going to Vegas next week!!!!! Oh, and I'll work on the quotes thing!!

[+Rockin Roddy]

hiccup!

Edited January 9, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Rockin Roddy]

now how'd that happen??

Edited January 9, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Too Tall John]

I'm saying that a lot of times folks say no, not because they think it'll be a problem, but because they don't want to put themselves on record as being responsible. The example I gave of KBI asking permission to list the Earth Cache which didn't even involve hiding a cache, just people standing, looking around, and leaving, they said no. (Eventually he went high enough and got someone to say yes)

In the case of Wal-Mart, and probably most big box stores, unless they make a policy expressly allowing geocaching on property, existing policies already disallow it. Getting a "No" answer will not be a case of a manager covering themselves just in case, it will be a case of a manager following policy. I actually had a conversation the other day with my former district manager at Wal-Mart. It just happens that he and his family recently got into geocaching, so he is very familiar with it. He recently started working as a manager for Lowe's. We talked about commercial property caches & permission, and we both agreed that policies for both stores would disallow it.**

My point is, if I go to a county park to play Frisbee, I'll just go play and not ask permission. I know that playing Frisbee is okay, and I also know that someone might refuse to give me permission to play Frisbee simply to avoid responsibility.

 

If I went to a park where I didn't think it was okay to play Frisbee (Stone Mountain park just outside of Atlanta doesn't allow it before the laser show because the grassy area is too crowded) then I wouldn't play. If I really really really wanted to play there, I'd ask permission, be told no, and then I wouldn't play.

The OP isn't asking about parks. This discussion should have little to do with parks, yet you keep trying to bring them into the equation.

 

Hrm...

 

 

** I was actually a little disappointed. I was hoping that, despite my predictions here, he'd say "Why that's a great idea, John! You should put one out!" The Lowe's parking lot here has a great view of a rocky mountain peak that currently has no cache. I thought a multi starting in a Lowe's lamppost and ending on the mountain would be great. Oh well...

[+sbell111]

[Mushtang]

The OP isn't asking about parks. This discussion should have little to do with parks, yet you keep trying to bring them into the equation.

 

Hrm...

The OP is asking about permission, and I'm using the Frisbee Rule as a way to judge if express permission is needed, or if adequate permission already exists.

 

I didn't invent the Frisbee rule, but I like it and think it works well.

 

The discussion of playing Frisbee in a park without express permission is completely on topic to geocaching in a park (or Walmart parking lot) without express permission.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm wondering, why is it okay to store your private property (e.g. a geocache container) on someone else's private property (e.g. Walmart's parking lot) without permission to do so?

 

This can be looked at from two angles: moral and legal. Feel free to fire away at either or both.

Reverse the question.

Is it ok to prohibit any and all activity other than parking for shopping on a WW parking lot? Some would say yes. I'd argue otherwise. Simple CIP. Your oil light comes on. You pull in the parking and buy some oil. While trying to pour it in, you are arrested for loitering. Whoops forgot to get permission.

 

Reverse it again. You throw the oil cans away in the WW trash can. Who gave you the right to throw away your personal property (yeah it's trash, but it's YOUR trash) in their trash can placed there for their use and conveneince? Dang, is is litter to throw your trash into someone elses personal property even if it's a trash can?

 

Reverse it again. You get a repair ticket for a a part WW has. You stop and buy one and and it's a 30 minute job in the parking lot. The car really isn't safe without the part so do you get back on the road and compromise the safety of others and yourself or do you do the repair in the busy WW parking lot?

 

Again. You bring your iPod to listen to music while shopping. Did you do wrong because WW also sells those? Ditto your Cell Phone. It's a current model you could have stolen off the shelf and slipped your sim card into.

 

Again. Your wife is school shopping with your picky daughter, you bump into a friend. Woudl you think twice about playing frisbee for a bit in the quiet corrner? Would you feel gulty and break moral laws if you managed to lose your frisbee? That's personal property on private property.

 

For the past 50 years the back corner of the WW lot was used as a short cut to get to the fishing pond. Tuesday at 10am they built a fence. The fisherman cut it down and opened up their trail. Who's right? Why? (The fisherman are actually...but you have to understand why).

 

The real question for real people is "Is geoaching a viable activity in areas of public accomodation?" My answer is that yes all areas of public accomodation are valid places to consider caching in. Consider is not a rubber yes stamp. There should be no need or desire to make the question more complex than that. Joe Citizen could care less and right fully so. Armchair lawers are another thing.

[+Renegade Knight]

And Mushtang....King of strawman?? I took your very same snippets and expanded a bit and you now cry strawman. Look, we're talking caching here, strawman argument started with the frisbee, RVs etc...I just expanded on YOUR strawman!!

I'm convinced you don't know what a Strawman Argument....

 

I finally figured out what aq strawman argument is and I find it a handy tool. If something actually does hold up when you take it to the extreme it's normally a good argument. When it doesn't it shows that there is a reasonable limit and a fair amount of contention may happen in pegging what the limite is. Sometimes it just points out that the orginal argument is merely abserd. Sometimes it provides a little clarity.

 

When someone calls the debate style "strawman" it's normally a dismissal of the tactic and the argument as not worth bothering with.

[Mushtang]

And Mushtang....King of strawman?? I took your very same snippets and expanded a bit and you now cry strawman. Look, we're talking caching here, strawman argument started with the frisbee, RVs etc...I just expanded on YOUR strawman!!

I'm convinced you don't know what a Strawman Argument....

 

I finally figured out what aq strawman argument is and I find it a handy tool. If something actually does hold up when you take it to the extreme it's normally a good argument. When it doesn't it shows that there is a reasonable limit and a fair amount of contention may happen in pegging what the limite is. Sometimes it just points out that the orginal argument is merely abserd. Sometimes it provides a little clarity.

 

When someone calls the debate style "strawman" it's normally a dismissal of the tactic and the argument as not worth bothering with.

No, that's not quite right. A strawman is bringing something into the debate that wasn't even being discussed, and then arguing against it to prove your point.

 

For instance, if I talk about someone being in a Walmart parking lot without express permission, and someone comes back and says that I should try doing donuts on his father's golf course in a 4 wheeler and see if I get shot, that doesn't show me if being in a Walmart parking lot is a good idea or not.

 

I think a better description of what you're talking about is an analogy, and I too think taking analogies to an extreme, or their opposite, is often handy. Destroying the turf on a golf course is NOT an extreme analogy to being in a parking lot.

[+Bunganator]

I dont expect this to solve anything, but this is an email I just recieved after asking the HHH metrodome if I could place a cache just outside:

 

"This is in reply to your e-mail. Since the building opened in 1982, the Stadium

Commission has been consistent in not allowing any activity on the site which is

contrary to the wishes of the tenants. The tenants want a building with only items

in it which are related to the operation of the Dome. Therefore, I must disapprove

your request."

 

A little vaugue? Maybe. Its not quite Wal-Mart either. The point is that places of business have policies that must be upheld. It wouldn't hurt anything if I would have placed it, but, in order to avoid any problems, I'm glad I asked. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.

[+sbell111]

I dont expect this to solve anything, but this is an email I just recieved after asking the HHH metrodome if I could place a cache just outside:

 

"This is in reply to your e-mail. Since the building opened in 1982, the Stadium

Commission has been consistent in not allowing any activity on the site which is

contrary to the wishes of the tenants. The tenants want a building with only items

in it which are related to the operation of the Dome. Therefore, I must disapprove

your request."

 

A little vaugue? Maybe. Its not quite Wal-Mart either. The point is that places of business have policies that must be upheld. It wouldn't hurt anything if I would have placed it, but, in order to avoid any problems, I'm glad I asked. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.

They only want items in the building that relate to the operation of the Dome. That doesn't really speak to items outside the building.

 

I'm just saying...

[Mushtang]

I dont expect this to solve anything, but this is an email I just recieved after asking the HHH metrodome if I could place a cache just outside:

 

"This is in reply to your e-mail. Since the building opened in 1982, the Stadium

Commission has been consistent in not allowing any activity on the site which is

contrary to the wishes of the tenants. The tenants want a building with only items

in it which are related to the operation of the Dome. Therefore, I must disapprove

your request."

 

A little vaugue? Maybe. Its not quite Wal-Mart either. The point is that places of business have policies that must be upheld. It wouldn't hurt anything if I would have placed it, but, in order to avoid any problems, I'm glad I asked. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.

I would say that you absolutely did the right thing. You wanted to hide a cache in a location and you didn't feel that assuming permission would be adequate, so you requested express permission. Good job!

 

Unfortunately for your hide the permission was not given.

Fortunately for the game you didn't hide it without asking and risk someone getting upset about it.

[+sbell111]

I dont expect this to solve anything, but this is an email I just recieved after asking the HHH metrodome if I could place a cache just outside:

 

"This is in reply to your e-mail. Since the building opened in 1982, the Stadium

Commission has been consistent in not allowing any activity on the site which is

contrary to the wishes of the tenants. The tenants want a building with only items

in it which are related to the operation of the Dome. Therefore, I must disapprove

your request."

 

A little vaugue? Maybe. Its not quite Wal-Mart either. The point is that places of business have policies that must be upheld. It wouldn't hurt anything if I would have placed it, but, in order to avoid any problems, I'm glad I asked. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.

I would say that you absolutely did the right thing. You wanted to hide a cache in a location and you didn't feel that assuming permission would be adequate, so you requested express permission. Good job!

 

Unfortunately for your hide the permission was not given.

Fortunately for the game you didn't hide it without asking and risk someone getting upset about it.

I agree.

 

That being said, asking permission forced the land manager to make a decision. This ended up in a 'No' citing a policy that wasn't actually on point. I wonder if this isn't a perfect example of forcing a decision on something that truly didn't matter, but that the 'decider' didn't want to accept responsibility for. The easy answer is always 'No'.

 

It should also be noted that email is not actually a good way to get someone to say 'Yes'.

Edited January 9, 2008 by sbell111

[+Renegade Knight]

...Again, caching ISN'T benign...like frisbee or playing tag or hide and seek or... Someone sees someone hide something in the park bench or an LPS and they MIGHT think there's something bad going on....

 

Caching is harmless. If someone sees some cloak and dagger things and calls the police and WW III breaks out it changes nothing that caching was, is, and remains harmless.

 

You are right that perceptions can vary. It's out job to keep getting out the harmless and fun family activity message. If someone has a wrong perception we can pay the price but it still doesn't change that OUR activity is harmless. On the rare occasion that a cache should not exist we can remove it. Simple enough.

[+Renegade Knight]

....That being said, asking permission forced the land manager to make a decision. This ended up in a 'No' citing a policy that wasn't actually on point. I wonder if this isn't a perfect example of forcing a decision on something that truly didn't matter, but that the 'decider' didn't want to accept responsibility for. The easy answer is always 'No'.

 

It should also be noted that email is not actually a good way to get someone to say 'Yes'.

Well said. No is the easy answer. For the most part caching is below the threshold of concern.

[+Too Tall John]

The OP isn't asking about parks. This discussion should have little to do with parks, yet you keep trying to bring them into the equation.

 

Hrm...

The OP is asking about permission, and I'm using the Frisbee Rule as a way to judge if express permission is needed, or if adequate permission already exists.

 

I didn't invent the Frisbee rule, but I like it and think it works well.

 

The discussion of playing Frisbee in a park without express permission is completely on topic to geocaching in a park (or Walmart parking lot) without express permission.

Definitions of park on the Web:

• a large area of land preserved in its natural state as public property
  
• a piece of open land for recreational use in an urban area
  

A park is developed with the intent to be outside & participate in outdoor activities.

 

A parking lot is made with the intent to park.

 

Frisbee rule doesn't really work for me here.

[Mushtang]

The OP isn't asking about parks. This discussion should have little to do with parks, yet you keep trying to bring them into the equation.

 

Hrm...

The OP is asking about permission, and I'm using the Frisbee Rule as a way to judge if express permission is needed, or if adequate permission already exists.

 

I didn't invent the Frisbee rule, but I like it and think it works well.

 

The discussion of playing Frisbee in a park without express permission is completely on topic to geocaching in a park (or Walmart parking lot) without express permission.

Definitions of park on the Web:

• a large area of land preserved in its natural state as public property
  
• a piece of open land for recreational use in an urban area
  

A park is developed with the intent to be outside & participate in outdoor activities.

 

A parking lot is made with the intent to park.

 

Frisbee rule doesn't really work for me here.

The Frisbee test doesn't apply only to parks.

 

Anywhere you'd feel comfortable throwing a Frisbee with a friend without having to ask for express permission is probably okay to hide a cache without having to ask for express permission.

 

As RK said earlier:

all areas of public accommodation are valid places to consider caching in. Consider is not a rubber yes stamp.

If you feel it's okay to play Frisbee in a parking lot, you can consider caching there too, without having to get express permission for either.

 

If the Frisbee test doesn't work for you, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that nobody should ever ask permission for LPCs. Just the opposite. If you feel you need to, then you should definitely ask. If you're told no, then you shouldn't hide the cache.

[knowschad]

You most definately DO need permission before placing any lamppost micro. MINE. And you ain't gonna get it!!!

 

Seriously... it anyone here really believes in their heart-of-hearts that there is ONE Wally-World skirtlifter out there with landowner's permission, I have a little yellow eTrex I wanna sell ya.

[+Too Tall John]

If you feel it's okay to play Frisbee in a parking lot, you can consider caching there too, without having to get express permission for either.

 

If the Frisbee test doesn't work for you, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that nobody should ever ask permission for LPCs. Just the opposite. If you feel you need to, then you should definitely ask. If you're told no, then you shouldn't hide the cache.

Answer this for me:

 

Do you truly believe that Wal-Mart does not possibly have a policy that would disallow geocaching?

 

If there is any reasonable doubt, don't you think placing a cache following the Frisbee Rule makes sense?

 

Even if you think I'm pulling your leg, do my statements make so little sense in the real world that you're totally discounting the possibility?

 

If you answered "No" to any of these questions, following the Frisbee Rule, you shouldn't place a cache on Wal-Mart property w/out getting permission.

[Mushtang]

If you feel it's okay to play Frisbee in a parking lot, you can consider caching there too, without having to get express permission for either.

 

If the Frisbee test doesn't work for you, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that nobody should ever ask permission for LPCs. Just the opposite. If you feel you need to, then you should definitely ask. If you're told no, then you shouldn't hide the cache.

Answer this for me:

 

Do you truly believe that Wal-Mart does not possibly have a policy that would disallow geocaching?

 

If there is any reasonable doubt, don't you think placing a cache following the Frisbee Rule makes sense?

 

Even if you think I'm pulling your leg, do my statements make so little sense in the real world that you're totally discounting the possibility?

 

If you answered "No" to any of these questions, following the Frisbee Rule, you shouldn't place a cache on Wal-Mart property w/out getting permission.

It's hard to follow the questions and figure out if my answer is no or not. Do I not think they do not have a no caching policy? Then again, it is 12:30am and I'm pretty tired.

 

I would think that if Walmart had a nation-wide policy against geocaching then all they would need to do is contact Groundspeak and at the very least the reviewers would stop approving new caches that make it clear in the description they're in Walmart parking lots. As far as I know the company has never contacted the site to ask for help stopping the hides. The site could also change the guidelines and in a very short time have all the Walmart caches removed. The fact that none of this has happened tells me there's probably not a nation-wide Walmart policy.

 

There might be one for the district you worked in, maybe it was policy for all the stores in your state, or maybe it was just that one store policy, I don't know. I don't think you're pulling my leg. It seems you believe there is a policy, but I haven't seen enough evidence for me to think there is.

 

(This sounds familiar, didn't we do this over a year ago and it resulted in someone in Hawaii trying to force Walmart to make a nation-wide policy by having a discussion with a Walmart manager near him?)

 

If there's reasonable doubt, then I most definitely think that the Frisbee test makes sense. Of course the Frisbee test isn't perfect, and I never claimed it was, but it does give someone a rule of thumb. I think if I got to a parking lot and wanted to hide a cache, and it was an empty corner that pretty much stays empty (the one 2 miles from my house has this situation), I still think I'd feel okay hiding one.

 

If I looked around and for whatever reason I decided that it might not be a good idea, but I wanted to hide one anyway, I'd go find someone in management and ask permission. If permission wasn't given, I wouldn't hide it - even if I still felt it was okay to play Frisbee.

[+Rockin Roddy]

If you feel it's okay to play Frisbee in a parking lot, you can consider caching there too, without having to get express permission for either.

 

If the Frisbee test doesn't work for you, that's fine. I'm not suggesting that nobody should ever ask permission for LPCs. Just the opposite. If you feel you need to, then you should definitely ask. If you're told no, then you shouldn't hide the cache.

Answer this for me:

 

Do you truly believe that Wal-Mart does not possibly have a policy that would disallow geocaching?

 

If there is any reasonable doubt, don't you think placing a cache following the Frisbee Rule makes sense?

 

Even if you think I'm pulling your leg, do my statements make so little sense in the real world that you're totally discounting the possibility?

 

If you answered "No" to any of these questions, following the Frisbee Rule, you shouldn't place a cache on Wal-Mart property w/out getting permission.

It's hard to follow the questions and figure out if my answer is no or not. Do I not think they do not have a no caching policy? Then again, it is 12:30am and I'm pretty tired.

 

I would think that if Walmart had a nation-wide policy against geocaching then all they would need to do is contact Groundspeak and at the very least the reviewers would stop approving new caches that make it clear in the description they're in Walmart parking lots. As far as I know the company has never contacted the site to ask for help stopping the hides. The site could also change the guidelines and in a very short time have all the Walmart caches removed. The fact that none of this has happened tells me there's probably not a nation-wide Walmart policy.

 

There might be one for the district you worked in, maybe it was policy for all the stores in your state, or maybe it was just that one store policy, I don't know. I don't think you're pulling my leg. It seems you believe there is a policy, but I haven't seen enough evidence for me to think there is.

 

(This sounds familiar, didn't we do this over a year ago and it resulted in someone in Hawaii trying to force Walmart to make a nation-wide policy by having a discussion with a Walmart manager near him?)

 

If there's reasonable doubt, then I most definitely think that the Frisbee test makes sense. Of course the Frisbee test isn't perfect, and I never claimed it was, but it does give someone a rule of thumb. I think if I got to a parking lot and wanted to hide a cache, and it was an empty corner that pretty much stays empty (the one 2 miles from my house has this situation), I still think I'd feel okay hiding one.

 

If I looked around and for whatever reason I decided that it might not be a good idea, but I wanted to hide one anyway, I'd go find someone in management and ask permission. If permission wasn't given, I wouldn't hide it - even if I still felt it was okay to play Frisbee.

 

This sounds about right to me!

 

The WW around my area is fairly busy, but sometimes has an open area...not too often. The one in the next county (about same distance to 3 different counties and WWs for me...yippee) over has VERY little open space as they also have a mini-mall they share space with...very busy area. The other one is in Jackson MI, pretty busy at most times. I MIGHT (if I were ever inclined to place one, which I'm not) place one in the first WW lot, but the latter two would be tough...and there IS a cache in the last lot...the busiest of them near my home...go figure!

 

I'd not play frisbee in any of those lots, there's parks within spitting distance to all of them, but the rule of thumb you use seems like a useful one...for you!!

[+sbell111]

This sounds about right to me!

 

The WW around my area is fairly busy, but sometimes has an open area...not too often. The one in the next county (about same distance to 3 different counties and WWs for me...yippee) over has VERY little open space as they also have a mini-mall they share space with...very busy area. The other one is in Jackson MI, pretty busy at most times. I MIGHT (if I were ever inclined to place one, which I'm not) place one in the first WW lot, but the latter two would be tough...and there IS a cache in the last lot...the busiest of them near my home...go figure!

 

I'd not play frisbee in any of those lots, there's parks within spitting distance to all of them, but the rule of thumb you use seems like a useful one...for you!!

Your answer brings up the point that Wal-Mart might not be the appropriate body to ask for a LPM in 'their' lot, if permission is determined to be needed.

[+Rockin Roddy]

This sounds about right to me!

 

The WW around my area is fairly busy, but sometimes has an open area...not too often. The one in the next county (about same distance to 3 different counties and WWs for me...yippee) over has VERY little open space as they also have a mini-mall they share space with...very busy area. The other one is in Jackson MI, pretty busy at most times. I MIGHT (if I were ever inclined to place one, which I'm not) place one in the first WW lot, but the latter two would be tough...and there IS a cache in the last lot...the busiest of them near my home...go figure!

 

I'd not play frisbee in any of those lots, there's parks within spitting distance to all of them, but the rule of thumb you use seems like a useful one...for you!!

Your answer brings up the point that Wal-Mart might not be the appropriate body to ask for a LPM in 'their' lot, if permission is determined to be needed.

You lost me on this one sbell, I'm assuming you're talking about the WW with the mini-mall? The majority of the lot is WW's, there's a mini-mall to the east side which could also be asked for permission, but they don't have much lot...or posts.

[Ferreter5]

I'm wondering, why is it okay to store your private property (e.g. a geocache container) on someone else's private property (e.g. Walmart's parking lot) without permission to do so?

Oh, and to answer your question... adequate permission WAS obtained (according to some of us).

So with regard to private property it is okay:

• If someone unknown to the private property owner stores something on the private property?
  
• If the hider don't tell the private property owner they're doing this, what they're hiding, or where?
  
• If the hider invites other people to come to the private property to search out the hidden item, unbeknownst to the private property owner?
  

In my personal opinion this does not seem above board, and we're probably going to just have to agree to disagree on the point.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Ferreter5

[Mushtang]

we're probably going to just have to agree to disagree

I agree.

[+carolnbarney]

In general you should get permission for these. I seriously doubt very many had permission though.

 

BTW - "area of public accomendation" not "pulic right-of-way"

 

A note from a recently retired officer. Here in NC something like that would be called as PVA/Public Vehicular Area. This only means it is an area that is accessible to, and used by, the public. Title to the property and the control of it remains with the deeded owner or the person leasing or renting it. They still would have care and control of it.

[+Renegade Knight]

...So with regard to private property it is okay:

• If someone unknown to the private property owner stores something on the private property?
  
• If the hider don't tell the private property owner they're doing this, what they're hiding, or where?
  
• If the hider invites other people to come to the private property to search out the hidden item, unbeknownst to the private property owner?
  

In my personal opinion this does not seem above board, and we're probably going to just have to agree to disagree on the point.

 

When I go to a store I store my personal property without asking just about every time. Often there are signs proclaiming that the store is not responsible for my personal property that is on their premisis. Tuesday of this week my boss's boss invited me to store my personal property on the premisis of a private landholder while we went to a meeting at another location without specificly notifying that landowner.

 

It's all spin. Your spin is as you have said. My spin is that geocaching is harmless and a viable activity in most areas of public accomodation.

 

Your spin strikes me as needing permission to consume and store personal property while sitting on private property. Where I would be parking at a walmart with a nice green patch to stretch my legs and having a quick bite to eat before moving on. I live in my world, I'd really not like your world so much.

[+sbell111]

In general you should get permission for these. I seriously doubt very many had permission though.

 

BTW - "area of public accomendation" not "pulic right-of-way"

A note from a recently retired officer. Here in NC something like that would be called as PVA/Public Vehicular Area. This only means it is an area that is accessible to, and used by, the public. Title to the property and the control of it remains with the deeded owner or the person leasing or renting it. They still would have care and control of it.

Please tell me that this is Carol.

[+tozainamboku]

I think we should turn the Frisbee rule around.

 

What would a property owner do if he found someone playing Frisbee on his property without permission? Would he

• allow it to continue
  
• ask the people playing to move to another part of his parking lot, away from his customers' cars
  
• ask the people playing Frisbee to stop
  
• ask the people playing Frisbee to stop, leave, and never come back
  
• call the police and have the frisbee players arrested for tresspassing
  
• do one of the above and put up signs the next day that say "No Frisbee playing"
  

Why is it when it comes to geocaching some people think the most negative reaction is going to happen. Perhaps there have been a few cases where a property owner has threaten geocachers with arrest. In far more cases, a property owner or manager has probably thought it was a great idea for people to looking for a cache near their business. They probably even thought this is a better idea than playing frisbee. If a property owners doesn't want a cache most likely they will simply ask that the cache be removed from their property. There might even be a case where a manager told the corporate office and the company issued a policy to ban caches from their parking lots - but I haven't heard of this happening. Cracker Barrel did change their policy from allowing caches to not allowing but I'm not sure what the final resolution was and in any case it was not because the caches were placed without permission. I tend to agree that you should ask permission to hide a cache on private property - even in parking lots or other areas that offer public access. However, I don't think the world is coming to an end because some decided they didn't need permission. Worse case I see is that another lame LPC is archived.

[Ferreter5]

When I go to a store I store my personal property without asking just about every time.

If you're speaking of your car, then the store has already invited the public to do so while shopping at the store.

 

Tuesday of this week my boss's boss invited me to store my personal property on the premisis of a private landholder while we went to a meeting at another location without specificly notifying that landowner.

I'm assuming your boss's boss already had permission to do such things on that property.

 

My spin is that geocaching is harmless and a viable activity in most areas of public accomodation.

Geocaching is in fact a mostly harmless recreational activity. Heck, I geocache. I enjoy it.

 

Where I would be parking at a walmart with a nice green patch to stretch my legs and having a quick bite to eat before moving on.

I'm sure you're free to take that action. However, you also could be asked to leave by the property owner. The other difference is that you are not storing your property. Storing your car has the connotation of being longer in duration than parking, stopping, or standing. You don't take a geocache with you when you're done hiding it.

 

I live in my world, I'd really not like your world so much.

So it's okay if I store my things on your property, don't tell you about it, and invite others to come and try to find my things? You might allow that, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think that by default most people do not. Yes, that's an assumption and we all know what that could mean.

[Ferreter5]

Why is it when it comes to geocaching some people think the most negative reaction is going to happen.

I do agree that most people aren't going to freak out and call the police the first time they discover a geocache in their parking lot.

 

However, in my opinion, it shows a huge disrespect for private property rights to hide a cache on someone else's private property without having permission to do so.

 

Heck, I own private property. It is currently not POSTED in any way. There are certain things in my locale the general public is allowed to do on my land, by law. Storing their personal items there is not one of them.

 

As I said in a previous post there are two angles to this: legal and moral. The law on this issue in my locale is fairly clear. Where many of us will most likely never agree is whether it is "right" or "wrong" to do so.

[Ferreter5]

By the way, thank you everyone for having a pleasant conversation on this topic. On too many other boards this would have degenerated into uselessness way too quickly.

[+Renegade Knight]

...So it's okay if I store my things on your property, don't tell you about it, and invite others to come and try to find my things? You might allow that, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think that by default most people do not. Yes, that's an assumption and we all know what that could mean.

 

First lets steer this back to basics. It's a cache. Not your hot tub. Second it's discrete. Next it's worth pointing out that neither of us are talking inside someones office, in a fenced off area, posted property, or someones front yard. We are talking areas of public accommodation.

 

Areas of public accommodation do just that. You do invite the public and for more than your expressly intended business purpose. It's accepted that people will go about their business and lives and that some of that will intersect with areas that allow the public at large and that some of that won't involve your business or intent. A lot of that's perfectly ok. That's an important concept. AT this point you are either with me or already don't agree. If you already don't agree, then the concept that kids using a corner of your lot as a short cut can take priority over your own property rights and why it needs to be that way would be lost on you.

 

However if you are still with me. Take the case further. Rural or Urban. For rural I found hunter safety teaches a good rule of thumb on when to ask permission. If it's posted, or cultivated ask. If it's not permission for casual use is implied and allowed in most areas. One of the Nordic countries just passed laws on this very concept.

 

For urban you need to accept that if it's not destructive or disruptive it's generally ok in a public area. If you can't accept this generality then you would have a hard time understanding the difference between a hidden cache and a line of cars with for sale signs in the window along the roadside.

 

There is a lot of courtesy involved as to when yo should ask and when it's so trivial that it's not worth taking up their time. That takes judgment. For example. You have ZERO ownership in the road in front of your house. Id' be within my rights to park my car there with a for sale sign and take up your parking space and kludge up your view. It would be rude as heck though for me to do so. Custom would dictate that I ask in that case but not in the case of that being the only place I can park when visiting a neighbor.

 

One reason reasonable public use of areas of public accommodation is that the government retains police power. They allow for the fact that locking down the world we live in is not in the pubic interest. Instead it's in the public interest to allow reasonable uses of property within limits. If things get so bad that we can't use the Frisbee test to place a cache and have to ask for everything, the reaction will be to pass a law like one passed in Scandinavia where you don't even have the flexibility you just comply with the law.

 

Putting my money where my mouth is I took a look at an area where my family ownes 100+ acres of land. We have not posted it, nor would we begrudge fisherman the use of it. A couple of caches may actually exist on it. It's hard to tell from the GC.com maps. Do I hold a hard line and demand their removal? Or do I just say "oh well, and only worry about the cache if I bulldoze it for a cabin? That depends a lot on what kind of person I am.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Areas of public accommodation do just that. You do invite the public and for more than your expressly intended business purpose. It's accepted that people will go about their business and lives and that some of that will intersect with areas that allow the public at large and that some of that won't involve your business or intent. A lot of that's perfectly ok.

 

A lot of it IS OK, but that doesn't mean "do as you please".

 

For rural I found hunter safety teaches a good rule of thumb on when to ask permission. If it's posted, or cultivated ask. If it's not permission for casual use is implied and allowed in most areas.

 

I'm not sure about where you live, but around here, my yard is just that. My pasture is just that. You could be in serious trouble just walking across the wrong property around here...of course, you COULD also be just fine...how will you know until it's too late??

 

For urban you need to accept that if it's not destructive or disruptive it's generally ok in a public area. If you can't accept this generality then you would have a hard time understanding the difference between a hidden cache and a line of cars with for sale signs in the window along the roadside.

 

Again, how will you know what is considered disruptive or destructive? Actually, how will you know if just looking for a cache isn't considered disruptive? My shopping mall example (the REI where the security approached us)....we were there for only a few minutes, we were in our car and we weren't being shady in any way, just parked under the light in the front of the lot...they STILL had concern enough to look into it.

 

Putting my money where my mouth is I took a look at an area where my family ownes 100+ acres of land. We have not posted it, nor would we begrudge fisherman the use of it. A couple of caches may actually exist on it. It's hard to tell from the GC.com maps. Do I hold a hard line and demand their removal? Or do I just say "oh well, and only worry about the cache if I bulldoze it for a cabin? That depends a lot on what kind of person I am.

 

Actually, it depends on what you know about the sport. I asked my dad for permission to place one at the entrance to the golf course (wouldn't have to get out of the lot), he said no. Why? He fears getting sued, plain and simple. No amount of telling him and showing him the info helps, it isn't happening. What if you were like that? What if your land were actually mine, you had the caches on there because the land isn't posted or fenced and you assumed it to be fine. One day, a group walks out while I'm home, I see them and get my gun and hold them at gunpoint while the LEO come? This group goes to jail (or are VERY inconvenienced at the very least). I'd assume they'd let me know of the cache since they would likely point to that as the "harmless" activity that brought them there...and the cache would be mine as well.

 

Would you want to put someone into that situation?

 

And if you want to talk parking lots...use my golf course. Say I just put a cache there since it's my lot and I perceive it to be OK. My dad catches you out there...gunpoint....cops...

 

Look Mushtang...I think I've got it!

[+sbell111]

Areas of public accommodation do just that. You do invite the public and for more than your expressly intended business purpose. It's accepted that people will go about their business and lives and that some of that will intersect with areas that allow the public at large and that some of that won't involve your business or intent. A lot of that's perfectly ok.

A lot of it IS OK, but that doesn't mean "do as you please".

RK never said 'do as you please'.

For rural I found hunter safety teaches a good rule of thumb on when to ask permission. If it's posted, or cultivated ask. If it's not permission for casual use is implied and allowed in most areas.

I'm not sure about where you live, but around here, my yard is just that. My pasture is just that. You could be in serious trouble just walking across the wrong property around here...of course, you COULD also be just fine...how will you know until it's too late??

Take another read of his post. Your yard and pasture would require permission, in his example. Also, you missed something else in his posts that may effect whether you can tell people not to walk across your property.

For urban you need to accept that if it's not destructive or disruptive it's generally ok in a public area. If you can't accept this generality then you would have a hard time understanding the difference between a hidden cache and a line of cars with for sale signs in the window along the roadside.

Again, how will you know what is considered disruptive or destructive? Actually, how will you know if just looking for a cache isn't considered disruptive? My shopping mall example (the REI where the security approached us)....we were there for only a few minutes, we were in our car and we weren't being shady in any way, just parked under the light in the front of the lot...they STILL had concern enough to look into it.

The security guard was doing his job. Causing him to do his job while not doing anything actually wrong is not 'disruptive', in my opinion.

Putting my money where my mouth is I took a look at an area where my family ownes 100+ acres of land. We have not posted it, nor would we begrudge fisherman the use of it. A couple of caches may actually exist on it. It's hard to tell from the GC.com maps. Do I hold a hard line and demand their removal? Or do I just say "oh well, and only worry about the cache if I bulldoze it for a cabin? That depends a lot on what kind of person I am.

Actually, it depends on what you know about the sport. I asked my dad for permission to place one at the entrance to the golf course (wouldn't have to get out of the lot), he said no. Why? He fears getting sued, plain and simple. No amount of telling him and showing him the info helps, it isn't happening. What if you were like that? What if your land were actually mine, you had the caches on there because the land isn't posted or fenced and you assumed it to be fine. One day, a group walks out while I'm home, I see them and get my gun and hold them at gunpoint while the LEO come? This group goes to jail (or are VERY inconvenienced at the very least). I'd assume they'd let me know of the cache since they would likely point to that as the "harmless" activity that brought them there...and the cache would be mine as well.

 

Would you want to put someone into that situation?

 

And if you want to talk parking lots...use my golf course. Say I just put a cache there since it's my lot and I perceive it to be OK. My dad catches you out there...gunpoint....cops...

 

Look Mushtang...I think I've got it!

Why is it that you constantly post about you or your father holding people at gunpoint? It's a bit disturbing. I'm thinking that if you have to do this very often, you are doing something wrong. Edited January 11, 2008 by sbell111

[+egami]

I've talked to 3 of the area Wal-Mart store managers first hand (yes, the top dog in all instances). All of them expressed to me very emphatically that they would like permission to be obtained, but would probably allow caches on the property depending on the location. They expressed interest in being able to guide a cacher on which location may be best and suggest particular locations they definitely do not want them in.

 

One of them started out saying no, but after talking about it a little longer warmed to the idea. He, in particular, stated if he were to discover one without permission he would of removed it and probably never have allowed it after the fact. He also said it would depend on if there was a corporate policy. He was not aware of one, but was going to look into it.

 

Wal-Mart corporate has not responded to my e-mail.

 

All of them said they would have no problem with people throwing frisbees.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Areas of public accommodation do just that. You do invite the public and for more than your expressly intended business purpose. It's accepted that people will go about their business and lives and that some of that will intersect with areas that allow the public at large and that some of that won't involve your business or intent. A lot of that's perfectly ok.

A lot of it IS OK, but that doesn't mean "do as you please".

RK never said 'do as you please'.

For rural I found hunter safety teaches a good rule of thumb on when to ask permission. If it's posted, or cultivated ask. If it's not permission for casual use is implied and allowed in most areas.

I'm not sure about where you live, but around here, my yard is just that. My pasture is just that. You could be in serious trouble just walking across the wrong property around here...of course, you COULD also be just fine...how will you know until it's too late??

Take another read of his post. Your yard and pasture would require permission, in his example. Also, you missed something else in his posts that may effect whether you can tell people not to walk across your property.

For urban you need to accept that if it's not destructive or disruptive it's generally ok in a public area. If you can't accept this generality then you would have a hard time understanding the difference between a hidden cache and a line of cars with for sale signs in the window along the roadside.

Again, how will you know what is considered disruptive or destructive? Actually, how will you know if just looking for a cache isn't considered disruptive? My shopping mall example (the REI where the security approached us)....we were there for only a few minutes, we were in our car and we weren't being shady in any way, just parked under the light in the front of the lot...they STILL had concern enough to look into it.

The security guard was doing his job. Causing him to do his job while not doing anything actually wrong is not 'disruptive', in my opinion.

Putting my money where my mouth is I took a look at an area where my family ownes 100+ acres of land. We have not posted it, nor would we begrudge fisherman the use of it. A couple of caches may actually exist on it. It's hard to tell from the GC.com maps. Do I hold a hard line and demand their removal? Or do I just say "oh well, and only worry about the cache if I bulldoze it for a cabin? That depends a lot on what kind of person I am.

Actually, it depends on what you know about the sport. I asked my dad for permission to place one at the entrance to the golf course (wouldn't have to get out of the lot), he said no. Why? He fears getting sued, plain and simple. No amount of telling him and showing him the info helps, it isn't happening. What if you were like that? What if your land were actually mine, you had the caches on there because the land isn't posted or fenced and you assumed it to be fine. One day, a group walks out while I'm home, I see them and get my gun and hold them at gunpoint while the LEO come? This group goes to jail (or are VERY inconvenienced at the very least). I'd assume they'd let me know of the cache since they would likely point to that as the "harmless" activity that brought them there...and the cache would be mine as well.

 

Would you want to put someone into that situation?

 

And if you want to talk parking lots...use my golf course. Say I just put a cache there since it's my lot and I perceive it to be OK. My dad catches you out there...gunpoint....cops...

 

Look Mushtang...I think I've got it!

Why is it that you constantly post about you or your father holding people at gunpoint? It's a bit disturbing. I'm thinking that if you have to do this very often, you are doing something wrong.

Calm down sbell, in case you didn't know, I don't own a gun, or a knife, or bow or even a club other than a golf club. I think my dad is a bit different though. And yes, you make a mistake and trespass on our course and you run a GOOD risk of being held by gunpoint if needed, but the gun WILL be present. Not US doing anything wrong, but we WILL protect our property. You find that disturbing? Don't trepass at our course. I should also add my dad lives at the course...right where he can see every bit of it from his "lookout"!

 

Oh, we're not alone in that stance around here!!

 

My using myself and a gun as an example....there are MANY places where people have guns readily available and aren't afraid to use them (Texas comes to mind right off). Assuming you have right to use could risk a confrontation with one of those people, I'm just pointing that possibility out!

Edited January 11, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

Calm down sbell, in case you didn't know, I don't own a gun, or a knife, or bow or even a club other than a golf club. I think my dad is a bit different though. And yes, you make a mistake and trespass on our course and you run a GOOD risk of being held by gunpoint if needed, but the gun WILL be present. Not US doing anything wrong, but we WILL protect our property. You find that disturbing? Don't trepass at our course.

 

Oh, we're not alone in that stance around here!!

I'm completely calm. You might note, however, that holding a person at gunpoint for merely walking across a golf course may very likely cause charges to be filed against you or subject you to an ugly civil suit, but that's not the topic of this thread.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Calm down sbell, in case you didn't know, I don't own a gun, or a knife, or bow or even a club other than a golf club. I think my dad is a bit different though. And yes, you make a mistake and trespass on our course and you run a GOOD risk of being held by gunpoint if needed, but the gun WILL be present. Not US doing anything wrong, but we WILL protect our property. You find that disturbing? Don't trepass at our course.

 

Oh, we're not alone in that stance around here!!

I'm completely calm. You might note, however, that holding a person at gunpoint for merely walking across a golf course may very likely cause charges to be filed against you or subject you to an ugly civil suit, but that's not the topic of this thread.

 

Where are you from? I'll assume you don't know the laws around here. It's been done more than once.

 

We're off track, if you care to discuss this you can PM me!!