Admitted cache pirates

[+The Jester]

I'm fresh back from a vacation, and I get an email yesterday from someone within a local grotto of the NSS (they haven't identified themselves, just an email address) stating that one of the five grotto's listed would be removing A Jester Unemployed... and ...Is Nobody's Fool. I received conformation that "A Jester Unemployed... is missing - with a note "Jester, Remove this cache and we will leave you alone. The Grotto". (Another of my caches in the area is missing, but I don't know if that is related.)

 

I'm not sure I should post the entire email here, but basically it said the NSS (National Speleological Society) and the NCA (Northwest Caving Association), including The Cascade Grotto, The Gem State Grotto, The Oregon Grotto, The Oregon High Desert Grotto, and The Willamette Valley Grotto have decided that they will steal any cache that is close to a cave. The stated reason was because publishing the coordinates of caves is illegal (qouting the Federal Cave Protection Act of 1988). I will post my replies:

 

It's always interesting when people quote only parts of the information that

is relevant. Here's another section you might want to read:

 

Federal Cave Protection Act of 1988

Section 2: (b ) PURPOSES.--The purposes of this Act are-- (1) to secure,

protect, and preserve significant caves on Federal lands for the perpetual

use, enjoyment, and benefit of all people; and (2) to foster increased

cooperation and exchange of information between governmental authorities and

those who utilize caves located on Federal lands for scientific, education,

or recreational purposes.

 

Note the phrases "perpetual use, enjoyment, and benefit of all people" and

"recreational purposes". Nowhere does it say "only NSS members".

 

I asked Mitch Wainwright of Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument if

there were, aside from the bat closure, any restrictions on visiting Ole's

Cave. His answer was there were none. I figure an employee of the Federal

Agency overseeing the area trumps your group. I feel sorry for any group

that feels that they are the only ones that know how to deal with their area

of interest, in this case, that only NSS members know how to go caving

properly.

 

The co-ordinates for Ole's cave are nowhere on Geocaching.com, nor are they

listed on the cache pages. Hence there is no public listing of said

co-ords, so there is no need for their removal.

 

If an organized group of cachers proposed and accepted the idea the any car

that had NSS stickers/ID on it were owned by thieves (stealers of

geocaches), and therefore should be impounded as punishment for said

thievery, and acted on such a resolution, would you think they were right?

Such groups exist, but such action would be unthinkable. But, the NSS had

no problem passing a similar resolution. Think about that for a bit.

 

Your actions are out and out theft. Your group had no right to steal my

property (except in your own minds). And I demand that you return it to

it's place or to me.

 

Craig (The Jester)

and then this:

Some further thoughts on your actions.

 

Title 5, Section 552 of the United States Code is for Federal Agencies.

They may not be able to publish the coordinates to the public, but this has

no affect on private individuals or other companies from publishing said

co-ords. So you have no right to demand that such be removed (aside from

the fact, as noted in my first email, that the co-ords are NOT published) as

neither I, nor Groundspeak (Geocaching.com), are or are connected with a

Federal Agency.

 

If you truly don't want "hostile attitudes" to develop, try not being

thieves. So far, the only "hostile attitude" that I've seen displayed is

from your end. I tried to make the cache pages reflect a good stewardship

towards the cave. I even modified the pages to discouraged exiting the cave

thru entrances 3 & 4 so the plants aren't damaged.

 

Craig (The Jester)

 

Today I got a reply that they would return the boxes if the pages are removed from GC.com. I'm still thinking of how to respond.

 

I've calmed down quite a bit - it's a good thing I didn't post this yesterday, I'd have been banned for the language I really wanted to use at first - but am still fairly upset at their actions/attitude.

[+Lizzy]

"In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system...". Not sure if this is considered extortion, but maybe.

[+AndrewRJ]

"In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system...". Not sure if this is considered extortion, but maybe.

I am not a lawyer... But I know a few

 

I stole something of yours and will return it if my demands are met.

 

That is extortion. Doing it over the internet also adds to the charges if I remember correctly.

[+SweetSassyPants]

Golly, that's just terrible.

 

I'm not sure what I would do in a similar sitch, but the first thing I would do for dadgum dang sure is make all my caches premium member only, at least until the issue has been resolved and the cans were back in place/in my hands.

 

What a bummer.

[+FluteFace]

That's very interesting, especially with regards to earthcaches. Quoting from Earthcache.org:

 

Can I develop an EarthCache in a cave area?

Cave areas are very sensitive. For this reason EarthCaches developed around caves in North America will go through an additional approval stage with the National Speleological Society to ensure that research and other factors are not being affected by people visiting the cache.

The NSS is involved with publishing EarthCaches, which could conceivably involve the publication of cave GPS coords. Seems kind of odd to me. If this is true, does dad know what his kids are doing?

[+Cardinal Red]

"In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system...". Not sure if this is considered extortion, but maybe.

 

Extortion? Are you people serious? I do not condone the actions of these groups. But, even if you could identify them, I challenge you to successfully bring theft charges against them. No theft, no extortion. Law enforcement would see it as the removal of abandoned property, not punishable by law. We are at the mercy of any group or individual that chooses to interfere with our game. Extortion is an interesting word, but so is Hysterics.

[+Lizzy]

"In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system...". Not sure if this is considered extortion, but maybe.

 

Extortion? Are you people serious? I do not condone the actions of these groups. But, even if you could identify them, I challenge you to successfully bring theft charges against them. No theft, no extortion. Law enforcement would see it as the removal of abandoned property, not punishable by law. We are at the mercy of any group or individual that chooses to interfere with our game. Extortion is an interesting word, but so is Hysterics.

 

I don't think I'd quite call it "abandoned" property.

[+SweetSassyPants]

Well, what can I say?? It's too hot to do much more than nothing so I played around with google and lookey lookey what I found - The Cascade Grotto.

 

I thought it was interesting that they hold monthly meetings in Shoreline the third Friday of the month. hmmm...

[+Prying Pandora]

Well that is certainly the pits. My condolences. How this will be resolved remains to be seen, but your caches may be better protected against vigilantes if you make them members only. You'll probably have to relocate these two regardless since the thieves already know their original location.

[+FluteFace]

. . . but so is Hysterics.

Hysterics? Where??

[+TotemLake]

"In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system...". Not sure if this is considered extortion, but maybe.

 

Extortion? Are you people serious? I do not condone the actions of these groups. But, even if you could identify them, I challenge you to successfully bring theft charges against them. No theft, no extortion. Law enforcement would see it as the removal of abandoned property, not punishable by law. We are at the mercy of any group or individual that chooses to interfere with our game. Extortion is an interesting word, but so is Hysterics.

Actually, because it is a recognized sport now by city, county, state and federal agencies, it does for all intents and purposes, fall under certain protections. Theft of a game piece could very well be a legitimate claim. With that perspective, your ridicule becomes a bit overboard.

Edited June 30, 2008 by TotemLake

[+TrailGators]

When hundreds of caches were stolen from ABDSP that were in compliance with the geocaching guidelines given to us by the park, our geocaching attorneys said that those cache owners may have a good case. However, once our initial anger wore off all that talk also wore off. Anyhow, I can totally understand your anger and frustration with this. Good luck!

[Jeremy]

Cave entrances can be posted on Waymarking.com.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Today I got a reply that they would return the boxes if the pages are removed from GC.com. I'm still thinking of how to respond.

 

I've calmed down quite a bit - it's a good thing I didn't post this yesterday, I'd have been banned for the language I really wanted to use at first - but am still fairly upset at their actions/attitude.

 

Check here:

http://www.terracachers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

 

I worked with a board member of the NSS to create an ombudsman to help work out issues between cavers and geocachers. I'd start there.

 

At the time that was put together there were quite a few conflicts. Since then there haven't been that many and so there hasn't been a need for the past couple of years. However, that's where I'd go in your shoes. If the email is inactive I can still put you in touch.

 

Good luck and let me know how it goes. This is the kind of thing terracachers (not to be confused with terracaching) was created for.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I challenge you to successfully bring theft charges against them. No theft, no extortion. Law enforcement would see it as the removal of abandoned property, not punishable by law. We are at the mercy of any group or individual that chooses to interfere with our game....

Having worked wiht an assistant US Discrtrict Attorney on the issue I can tell you that the law is on the side of the cache owner. However the priorities of the police tend to put cache theft lower on the scale..

[+-CacheMonkey-]

Speaking as somebody who might respond to a call for "My cache box was stolen, I want to file a report." I can tell you that, although the sport may be recognized, if the box is left on public property, it's abandoned. Even though people may be looking for it and it has a valid reason to be there, it's abandoned. Anyone can take it and not be charged with a crime, unless of course they took it from the hands of another. A cache taken from private property, where the property owner gave permission, could be reported stolen, I suppose. It's unlikely an officer would take that report anyway. It's not much different than you put your soccer ball in a park for a friend to pick up later, and when that friend got there, it was gone. It wasn't stolen (in the legal sense), it's just been found and taken home.

 

Now it's got me thinking. If I ever were to get that call, would I take that report? A little geo-professional courtesy perhaps?

[+The Jester]

Speaking as somebody who might respond to a call for "My cache box was stolen, I want to file a report." I can tell you that, although the sport may be recognized, if the box is left on public property, it's abandoned. Even though people may be looking for it and it has a valid reason to be there, it's abandoned. Anyone can take it and not be charged with a crime, unless of course they took it from the hands of another. A cache taken from private property, where the property owner gave permission, could be reported stolen, I suppose. It's unlikely an officer would take that report anyway. It's not much different than you put your soccer ball in a park for a friend to pick up later, and when that friend got there, it was gone. It wasn't stolen (in the legal sense), it's just been found and taken home.

 

Now it's got me thinking. If I ever were to get that call, would I take that report? A little geo-professional courtesy perhaps?

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but why isn't all personal property treated the same? A cache in the woods - abandoned property. Car left a side of road - not abandoned property. There was more info on the cache to identify it as mine, then on a car (as a private citizen - it takes time and money to get the owner ID).

[+The Jester]

...

Today I got a reply that they would return the boxes if the pages are removed from GC.com. I'm still thinking of how to respond.

 

I've calmed down quite a bit - it's a good thing I didn't post this yesterday, I'd have been banned for the language I really wanted to use at first - but am still fairly upset at their actions/attitude.

 

Check here:

http://www.terracachers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

 

I worked with a board member of the NSS to create an ombudsman to help work out issues between cavers and geocachers. I'd start there.

 

At the time that was put together there were quite a few conflicts. Since then there haven't been that many and so there hasn't been a need for the past couple of years. However, that's where I'd go in your shoes. If the email is inactive I can still put you in touch.

 

Good luck and let me know how it goes. This is the kind of thing terracachers (not to be confused with terracaching) was created for.

Thank you very much! I just sent an email off to them, I'll let you know what happens.

[+The Jester]

RK, the email bounced:

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

 

Delivery to the following recipients failed permanently:

 

* geocaching-issues@cavescience.com

Do you have another way to contact them?

[+-CacheMonkey-]

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but why isn't all personal property treated the same? A cache in the woods - abandoned property. Car left a side of road - not abandoned property. There was more info on the cache to identify it as mine, then on a car (as a private citizen - it takes time and money to get the owner ID).

 

A car parked on the side of the road for more than 24 hours is abandoned property and can be impounded. A car left blocking the roadway is immediately considered abandoned.

[+webscouter.]

I would contact GeoAware, Not only would he probably be in contact with someone from the NSS if they are going to "steal" caches to get their way I would not want them as approving authorities for earth caches. IMHO they do not meet a professional standard that the cache reviewer have to meet.

[+The Jester]

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but why isn't all personal property treated the same? A cache in the woods - abandoned property. Car left a side of road - not abandoned property. There was more info on the cache to identify it as mine, then on a car (as a private citizen - it takes time and money to get the owner ID).

 

A car parked on the side of the road for more than 24 hours is abandoned property and can be impounded. A car left blocking the roadway is immediately considered abandoned.

But does that mean I can take the car and it's mine, because it was "found and taken home"?

 

Impounded cars do not become the property of the agency impounding them (if so, why does the city bill you for storage of the car?). In the same way if I can identify my property (clearly marked on the side) it should be returned to me.

Edited June 30, 2008 by The Jester

[+-CacheMonkey-]

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but why isn't all personal property treated the same? A cache in the woods - abandoned property. Car left a side of road - not abandoned property. There was more info on the cache to identify it as mine, then on a car (as a private citizen - it takes time and money to get the owner ID).

 

A car parked on the side of the road for more than 24 hours is abandoned property and can be impounded. A car left blocking the roadway is immediately considered abandoned.

But does that mean I can take the car and it's mine, because it was "found and taken home"?

 

Impounded cars do not become the property of the agency impounding them (if so, why does the city bill you for storage of the car?). In the same way if I can identify my property (clearly marked on the side) it should be returned to me.

 

You're correct about that. But cars are treated differently in that sense than other property. Don't know why, they just are. Clearly, equating a vehicle with a cache is a bit of a stretch.

[+coreynjoey]

Cave entrances can be posted on Waymarking.com.

 

 

Sweet! Guess they can't steal that, now can they

[+The Jester]

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but why isn't all personal property treated the same? A cache in the woods - abandoned property. Car left a side of road - not abandoned property. There was more info on the cache to identify it as mine, then on a car (as a private citizen - it takes time and money to get the owner ID).

 

A car parked on the side of the road for more than 24 hours is abandoned property and can be impounded. A car left blocking the roadway is immediately considered abandoned.

But does that mean I can take the car and it's mine, because it was "found and taken home"?

 

Impounded cars do not become the property of the agency impounding them (if so, why does the city bill you for storage of the car?). In the same way if I can identify my property (clearly marked on the side) it should be returned to me.

 

You're correct about that. But cars are treated differently in that sense than other property. Don't know why, they just are. Clearly, equating a vehicle with a cache is a bit of a stretch.

Hey, a box is a box is a box... Some are just bigger than others.

[+FluteFace]

I would contact GeoAware, Not only would he probably be in contact with someone from the NSS if they are going to "steal" caches to get their way I would not want them as approving authorities for earth caches. IMHO they do not meet a professional standard that the cache reviewer have to meet.

I sent a message off to Geoaware just after my first posting to this thread, sort of an FYI kind of thing, pointing to this thread. I don't expect a personal reply.

[+Renegade Knight]

RK, the email bounced:

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

 

Delivery to the following recipients failed permanently:

 

* geocaching-issues@cavescience.com

Do you have another way to contact them?

Done. I'll get in touch with you on it.

[+Renegade Knight]

Speaking as somebody who might respond to a call for "My cache box was stolen, I want to file a report." I can tell you that, although the sport may be recognized, if the box is left on public property, it's abandoned. Even though people may be looking for it and it has a valid reason to be there, it's abandoned. Anyone can take it and not be charged with a crime, unless of course they took it from the hands of another. A cache taken from private property, where the property owner gave permission, could be reported stolen, I suppose. It's unlikely an officer would take that report anyway. It's not much different than you put your soccer ball in a park for a friend to pick up later, and when that friend got there, it was gone. It wasn't stolen (in the legal sense), it's just been found and taken home. ...

 

It's against the law to steal personal property. That doesn't change if someone holds a different opinion. The law doesn't care if it's a cache or your diamond ring. Law enforcement does care since they have to prioritize. I've had the chance to work with the Assistant US District Attorney for my region on this issue. They were clear on the law.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Babybackpackers]

I'm following this thread very closely. I just posted this cache yesterday.

Guler Ice Caves

[+The Jester]

Well, he/she escalated the threats. Now if I don't remove the caches they will target all my caches:

you have around 33 or so caches around Washington most of them in Renton. WE CAN TAKE THEM OUT!!!!!!!

But still hiding their identity - so brave.

[+WeightMan]

Well, he/she escalated the threats. Now if I don't remove the caches they will target all my caches:

you have around 33 or so caches around Washington most of them in Renton. WE CAN TAKE THEM OUT!!!!!!!

But still hiding their identity - so brave.

And they probably have all the coords so making them Members Only won't help.

[+superhoser]

They can be tracked down from their IP address cant they?

[+ZSandmann]

I'd be tempted to stake out one of my caches and beat the tar out of the person that came to take it.

[+Kiersolvd]

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....

Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...

and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....

Our four... no...

Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...

are such elements as fear, surprise...

I'll come in again.

 

I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

 

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh #@#$

 

 

So sad that vigilantism is still around....

[+LandRover]

I'd be tempted to stake out one of my caches and beat the tar out of the person that came to take it.

Just booby-trap all your caches, you may not get the right person but the word will get at that you don't want to mess with The Jester.

 

And by the way, I am in no way liable for the actions of others.

[+Allanon]

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....

Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...

and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....

Our four... no...

Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...

are such elements as fear, surprise...

I'll come in again.

 

I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

 

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh #@#$

 

 

So sad that vigilantism is still around....

[+webscouter.]

Well, he/she escalated the threats. Now if I don't remove the caches they will target all my caches:

you have around 33 or so caches around Washington most of them in Renton. WE CAN TAKE THEM OUT!!!!!!!

But still hiding their identity - so brave.

 

This is the point I would be contacting Groundspeak and NSS directly.

[+Dgwphotos]

Have you contacted the Forest Service again? They might be able to help you out.

[+The Jester]

I've just made contact with ombudsman the RK mentioned. I'll see what happens thru this channel.

 

I did pass word to Groundspeak, but as they haven't identified themselves or used GS/GC to contact me, there is nothing they can do at this time. From on comment in an email, I know the person(s) are reading this forum (or having it read to them, if they aren't a member).

[+The Jester]

They can be tracked down from their IP address cant they?

I wouldn't know how to begin to do this - though all the TV shows do it (yes, I believe everything I see on TV - they wouldn't lie to me, would they??).

[+The Jester]

I'd be tempted to stake out one of my caches and beat the tar out of the person that came to take it.

Just booby-trap all your caches, you may not get the right person but the word will get at that you don't want to mess with The Jester.

 

And by the way, I am in no way liable for the actions of others.

Hmm... maybe not all of them, just a select few...

[jholly]

They can be tracked down from their IP address cant they?

I wouldn't know how to begin to do this - though all the TV shows do it (yes, I believe everything I see on TV - they wouldn't lie to me, would they??).

 

perhaps, but if they used a computer at a public library, good luck.

 

Jim

[+Renegade Knight]

They can be tracked down from their IP address cant they?

I wouldn't know how to begin to do this - though all the TV shows do it (yes, I believe everything I see on TV - they wouldn't lie to me, would they??).

That's something TPTB can do for you if needed.

[+KoosKoos]

I'd be tempted to stake out one of my caches and beat the tar out of the person that came to take it.

 

Like the guy picking it up to move over and sit on the rock to dig through it as he signs the log?

[+The Jester]

I've heard from the ombudsmen, and have been assured this is not NSS policy:

The NSS has a clear policy of cooperation with geocachers due to our shared love of the outdoors.

That policy also regards caches as the personal property of the cacher, and certainly NOT as trash.

 

I've asked if the forum title can be changed as this person does not represent the NSS and I shouldn't imply that anymore (it was based on their claims in the first email I received).

[+The Jester]

They can be tracked down from their IP address cant they?

I wouldn't know how to begin to do this - though all the TV shows do it (yes, I believe everything I see on TV - they wouldn't lie to me, would they??).

That's something TPTB can do for you if needed.

TPTB really can't help with this, as all contact was done directly to my email address and not thru GC.com. I do have some suspicion of who it may be, or at least someone involved, but can't prove anything.

[+Renegade Knight]

...TPTB really can't help with this, as all contact was done directly to my email address and not thru GC.com. I do have some suspicion of who it may be, or at least someone involved, but can't prove anything.

Unless they stumbled on your cache by accident you have to have a GC.com account to view coordinates. If this site kept an audit log on all caches like premium members can see on their own caches they may be able to help. I'm not saying it would be easy, just that if the need comes up there is some hope of sucess.

[+Lookout Lisa]

TPTB really can't help with this, as all contact was done directly to my email address and not thru GC.com. I do have some suspicion of who it may be, or at least someone involved, but can't prove anything.

I've been following this thread for a few days and haven't been able to help/comment until now... OK, how did the 'pirates' get your personal email address???

[+The Jester]

TPTB really can't help with this, as all contact was done directly to my email address and not thru GC.com. I do have some suspicion of who it may be, or at least someone involved, but can't prove anything.

I've been following this thread for a few days and haven't been able to help/comment until now... OK, how did the 'pirates' get your personal email address???

I have had previous contact with a caver, I assume that's how my email address got into their circle.

 

He/she also implied that one of their members locally knew me, that could also be a source.

Edited July 3, 2008 by The Jester

[+ReadyOrNot]

We know what organization these folks are from. It sounds like we know their specific chapter and we also know when they are meeting.

 

It might be fun to get some geocachers to pay a visit to their chapter meeting. I'm sure that most of the members would not approve of what this guy is doing. Calling him out in front of his peers may be a viable solution to this problem.

 

I'm game.. Beats sitting in front of the TV watching Hell's Kitchen and eating potato chips.

Edited July 4, 2008 by ReadyOrNot