Obtaining permission to place on commercial property

[+Novac]

I have a form letter that I use for sending to towns and villages for requesting geocache placements in parks. I'm happy with the wording I have on it for that purpose. I started to send a letter to a grocery store chain because there's a nice spot on the outskirts of their parking lot that I would like to use to place a cache. While I was writing, I just couldn't come up with anything of value to say that would explain my request well to a business. For those of you who have successfully received permission to place caches on a company's property, how did you word your request?

 

And while I'm typing, one more question: If I want to place a geocache in a commercial area near a store in a strip mall or plaza, would I still contact the business, or would I need to find out which company manages the plaza and contact them instead? I'm guessing the answer to this question would also apply in a business park setting as well?

 

Thanks in advance.

[+palmetto]

sorry, too many threads opened - wrong response, wrong thread

Edited July 9, 2008 by palmetto

[AZcachemeister]

I have a form letter that I use for sending to towns and villages for requesting geocache placements in parks. I'm happy with the wording I have on it for that purpose. I started to send a letter to a grocery store chain because there's a nice spot on the outskirts of their parking lot that I would like to use to place a cache. While I was writing, I just couldn't come up with anything of value to say that would explain my request well to a business. For those of you who have successfully received permission to place caches on a company's property, how did you word your request?

 

And while I'm typing, one more question: If I want to place a geocache in a commercial area near a store in a strip mall or plaza, would I still contact the business, or would I need to find out which company manages the plaza and contact them instead? I'm guessing the answer to this question would also apply in a business park setting as well?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

As for question #1, perhaps if you need to think too hard to find a reason to put a cache there, there really isn't one?

 

As for question #2, you should contact the property management company and ALL the store owners. Any of the business owners might view someone searching for a cache as a suspicious activity and call the police.

[+WebChimp]

If I want to place a geocache in a commercial area near a store in a strip mall or plaza, would I still contact the business, or would I need to find out which company manages the plaza and contact them instead?

 

It's best to deal with the local, immediate manager of the nearest business. Go in and shop, visit with him/her if possible, and mention that you had an idea......... explain what it is, show him the container, etc. He might find it fun to look out the window and see the folks on the occasional hunt.

 

Contacting offices or people higher up in the food chain will probably just create confusion amongst the ranks.

 

Be prepared for a polite "no thanks", and just smile and move along.

[+WebChimp]

Double post. Sorry for the annoyance.

Edited July 9, 2008 by WebChimp

[+Novac]

As for question #1, perhaps if you need to think too hard to find a reason to put a cache there, there really isn't one?

I must not have worded my question very well. My question has nothing to do with reasons for placing a cache. My question is about how to request a cache placement permission from a business. Surely there are better methods than others regarding how to go about this. What explanations of geocaching have you given businesses to receive permission to place a cache?

 

WebChimp had an interesting idea with the casual approach. I'll try that with any smaller stores. Any suggestions with contacting larger chains and such?

[+StarBrand]

As for question #1, perhaps if you need to think too hard to find a reason to put a cache there, there really isn't one?

I must not have worded my question very well. My question has nothing to do with reasons for placing a cache. My question is about how to request a cache placement permission from a business. Surely there are better methods than others regarding how to go about this. What explanations of geocaching have you given businesses to receive permission to place a cache?

 

WebChimp had an interesting idea with the casual approach. I'll try that with any smaller stores. Any suggestions with contacting larger chains and such?

I think they meant that if you can't come up with a very compelling reason to talk to the business owner about why a cache should be there - then maybe a cache doesn't need to be there.........

[+Renegade Knight]

I have a form letter that I use for sending to towns and villages for requesting geocache placements in parks. I'm happy with the wording I have on it for that purpose. I started to send a letter to a grocery store chain because there's a nice spot on the outskirts of their parking lot that I would like to use to place a cache. While I was writing, I just couldn't come up with anything of value to say that would explain my request well to a business. For those of you who have successfully received permission to place caches on a company's property, how did you word your request?

 

And while I'm typing, one more question: If I want to place a geocache in a commercial area near a store in a strip mall or plaza, would I still contact the business, or would I need to find out which company manages the plaza and contact them instead? I'm guessing the answer to this question would also apply in a business park setting as well?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I'd start by talking to the manager. In person. A letter just won't do the job. I've got to see what the person thinks, react, adjust, adapt, and sell them on what they will get out of geocaching. "Dear Sir or Madam" isn't going to do that.

[Clan Riffster]

Permission? For a cache on commercial property? What a concept!

[+Mudfrog]

As for question #1, perhaps if you need to think too hard to find a reason to put a cache there, there really isn't one?

I must not have worded my question very well. My question has nothing to do with reasons for placing a cache. My question is about how to request a cache placement permission from a business. Surely there are better methods than others regarding how to go about this. What explanations of geocaching have you given businesses to receive permission to place a cache?

 

WebChimp had an interesting idea with the casual approach. I'll try that with any smaller stores. Any suggestions with contacting larger chains and such?

I don't understand AZ's first response either since it has nothing to do with what was asked.

 

As far as getting permission, i would talk to the manager of the store in person to start with. I would bet that this would get your yes or no for permission answer pretty quickly the majority of the time. This was the approach we used when we hid our cache at our local Gander Mountain. It's been out for a couple of years without problems. As i've stated in another post or two though, it isn't hidden under a lampskirt. I doubt if it would have been given permission if that had been our intended hiding place...

[+Creami Cannoli]

Having just done this, and am waiting on a reply...

 

Go in with a print out of something that explains what geocaching is and how it works. Take the conatiner with you, loaded and ready to go so you can explain the log book and what it's about. On the print out make sure there is a link to this website in case they want to research on their own. Also make sure your name and phone number are listed. Let them know that you are easiy reachacble in case of problems with the cache.

 

I went in and talked to the asst manager, gave her info and then called back a few days later and spoke to one of the managers. She said she would discuss it with the other 2 owners and would get back to me.

 

Just be prepared. When they ask how it could help business, have an idea. If they ask how much added traffic it will bring, have some sort of number that you can give them. Sell the upsides, but don't be discouraged if they say no.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Permission? For a cache on commercial property? What a concept!

 

I get the impression that the OP is talking about big box store parking lots. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of these types of caches do not have explicit permission, nor do they need explicit permission. If the big box store has a specific policy stating that geocaching is not allowed in their parking lots, then I would follow the policy, but otherwise, I would assume adequate permission. Do you need to get permission to park in their parking lot? Do you need permission to walk through their parking lot?

 

If permission were required for these types of finds, we wouldn't see very many of them... Hmmmmm... Maybe not a bad thing eh?

[+ReadyOrNot]

As for question #2, you should contact the property management company and ALL the store owners. Any of the business owners might view someone searching for a cache as a suspicious activity and call the police.

 

You've got to be kidding? Explicit permission from every store owner? Let's use some common sense folks. If it was a little mom and pop store, I could get behind that, but a strip mall? Come on!

[+D@nim@l]

I don't know why they aren't scrutinized more in the age of hi res google maps or bird's eye live.com maps.

Isn't it obvious that it's in a shopping center and isn't likely that explicit permission to hide it under lamp skirt is likely missing. It's like geocaching's"don't ask, don't tell" policy.

[+Renegade Knight]

As for question #2, you should contact the property management company and ALL the store owners. Any of the business owners might view someone searching for a cache as a suspicious activity and call the police.

 

You've got to be kidding? Explicit permission from every store owner? Let's use some common sense folks. If it was a little mom and pop store, I could get behind that, but a strip mall? Come on!

 

Don't forget mall security and the weekly briefing to keep the new blood fully informed about the caches lest they apprehend some poor sod of a cacher. We will ignore the general public since you can't do much with them even though they are just as likley to call and report random things.

[+Mudfrog]

Permission? For a cache on commercial property? What a concept!

 

I get the impression that the OP is talking about big box store parking lots. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of these types of caches do not have explicit permission, nor do they need explicit permission. If the big box store has a specific policy stating that geocaching is not allowed in their parking lots, then I would follow the policy, but otherwise, I would assume adequate permission. Do you need to get permission to park in their parking lot? Do you need permission to walk through their parking lot?

 

If permission were required for these types of finds, we wouldn't see very many of them... Hmmmmm... Maybe not a bad thing eh?

Going into a parking lot after hours can and has lead to people being asked to leave that parking lot. Of course you are right that we are allowed to walk and park in said parking lot during business hours, but do you really think that allowance makes it ok for the general public to raise lampskirt covers as well?

 

I don't think that adequate permission is the case here anyways. Like someone else mentioned, it's more like "don't ask, don't tell" than anything else...

[+ReadyOrNot]

I don't know why they aren't scrutinized more in the age of hi res google maps or bird's eye live.com maps.

Isn't it obvious that it's in a shopping center and isn't likely that explicit permission to hide it under lamp skirt is likely missing. It's like geocaching's"don't ask, don't tell" policy.

 

Explicit permission may be missing, you are correct.... Unfortunately, explicit permission is not required, only adequate permission is required. Are hiding caches in lamp skirts without explicit permission allowed? Due to the sheer number of them and, as you pointed out, how easy it is for the reviewers to determine that they are placed on private property, one would have to assume that TPTB consider lack of explicit permission adequate in those cases.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

[4wheelin_fool]

"Permission" is probably the wrong word to use. "Communication" is much better. Just tell the managers whats going on and give them a phone number if there is a problem. If they have reservations about it, then dont place it.

It's sort of like "permission", but it lets them off the hook for liability reasons. The word permission implies responsibility and they may deny it based on insurance stipulations.

 

I also think it's better to talk to them in person rather than writing a letter.

Edited July 10, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool

[AZcachemeister]

As for question #2, you should contact the property management company and ALL the store owners. Any of the business owners might view someone searching for a cache as a suspicious activity and call the police.

 

You've got to be kidding? Explicit permission from every store owner? Let's use some common sense folks. If it was a little mom and pop store, I could get behind that, but a strip mall? Come on!

 

Nope, not kidding.

Just because the cache is in front of store A, doesn't mean the owner of store B will not see me looking for the cache, become suspicious and call the cops on me.

If I am quick, I might find it, log it and be gone before the authorities arrive.

If I am not quick...???

 

Do we really need another strip-mall micro anyway?

[+D@nim@l]

I don't know why they aren't scrutinized more in the age of hi res google maps or bird's eye live.com maps.

Isn't it obvious that it's in a shopping center and isn't likely that explicit permission to hide it under lamp skirt is likely missing. It's like geocaching's"don't ask, don't tell" policy.

 

Explicit permission may be missing, you are correct.... Unfortunately, explicit permission is not required, only adequate permission is required. Are hiding caches in lamp skirts without explicit permission allowed? Due to the sheer number of them and, as you pointed out, how easy it is for the reviewers to determine that they are placed on private property, one would have to assume that TPTB consider lack of explicit permission adequate in those cases.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

I doubt any permission exists, explicit or otherwise, it's just precedent.

[+sbell111]

As for question #2, you should contact the property management company and ALL the store owners. Any of the business owners might view someone searching for a cache as a suspicious activity and call the police.

You've got to be kidding? Explicit permission from every store owner? Let's use some common sense folks. If it was a little mom and pop store, I could get behind that, but a strip mall? Come on!

Nope, not kidding.

Just because the cache is in front of store A, doesn't mean the owner of store B will not see me looking for the cache, become suspicious and call the cops on me.

So what? Personally, I don't break laws while geocachnig so I have no fear of talking to police about my activities. Interestingly, even with this attitude I've only actually had two conversations with LEOs while caching. The first was to get them to be in an LC picture with me. (One trooper took the pic while the other posed with me.) The other time, teh LAPD yelled at me to get off a median and back on the sidewalk as tehy drove by. I'm not sure that I should call that a conversation, but what the heck. The good news is they scooted me right to the virt.

If I am quick, I might find it, log it and be gone before the authorities arrive.

If I am not quick...???

First, I cannot imagine any police response time to be shorter than the time that it takes to log an LPC. Second, who cares if I'm still there when they show up?

 

LEO: What are you doing?

ME: Geocaching.

LEO: What's that?

ME: blah, blah, blah, blah

LEO: <snore>

ME: blah, blah, blah

LEO: Move along.

ME: OK.

Do we really need another strip-mall micro anyway?

Do we really need any geocaches, at all?

[+KBI]

If permission were required for these types of finds, we wouldn't see very many of them... Hmmmmm... Maybe not a bad thing eh?

As for question #1, perhaps if you need to think too hard to find a reason to put a cache there, there really isn't one?

I must not have worded my question very well. My question has nothing to do with reasons for placing a cache. My question is about how to request a cache placement permission from a business.

I don't understand AZ's first response either since it has nothing to do with what was asked.

Do we really need another strip-mall micro anyway?

Novac;

 

There are certain forum regulars who tend to drag their personal crusade agenda into every thread they visit, whether it’s on-topic or not.

 

I recommend ignoring them – don’t let them turn your valid discussion of this practical issue into a meddling (and irrelevant) criticism of your aesthetic preferences.

 

As to your very reasonable question: I would use the same casual, in-person approach that has been recommended already. Most likely the business owner/manager will be very interested and very accommodating, but (and as others have said): be prepared, if they say no, to thank them politely and try your idea elsewhere.

[+J-Way]

Having only scanned through most of the sidebars and personal rants, I'll chime in to answer the second question. Most store owners would love it if you brought more people to their parking lot. So if you're talking about a small strip-mall, then asking permission from the closest owners would probably result in a "Yes".

 

Most land owners of strip malls would be more concerned with threats of lawsuits and after-hours hijinks, and would be more likely to say "No". However, if you already have permission from the store owners, then that gives you a big advantage.

 

Also, and most important, some big property owners have completely banned all geocaching activities on their property. One of the most famous is CBL which owns lots of malls and strip-malls in the USA.

[Mr.Yuck]

Having only scanned through most of the sidebars and personal rants, I'll chime in to answer the second question. Most store owners would love it if you brought more people to their parking lot. So if you're talking about a small strip-mall, then asking permission from the closest owners would probably result in a "Yes".

 

Most land owners of strip malls would be more concerned with threats of lawsuits and after-hours hijinks, and would be more likely to say "No". However, if you already have permission from the store owners, then that gives you a big advantage.

 

I couldn't imagine, in my wildest dreams, a strip mall land owner giving permission, strictly because of liability issues. So why are there thousands of... Oh, never mind.

 

Also, and most important, some big property owners have completely banned all geocaching activities on their property. One of the most famous is CBL which owns lots of malls and strip-malls in the USA.

 

Have I been sleeping? First I ever heard of this. Is there a link to a cache that caused this, or some sort of statement by CBL?

[+J-Way]

Also, and most important, some big property owners have completely banned all geocaching activities on their property. One of the most famous is CBL which owns lots of malls and strip-malls in the USA.

Have I been sleeping? First I ever heard of this. Is there a link to a cache that caused this, or some sort of statement by CBL?

Actually, I couldn't find a specific reference. But I do know that all caches on local CBL properties were removed about a year or so ago, and I heard through the grapevine that they no longer allow caching on their properties. One local cache specifically states that it is close to but is NOT actually on CBL property.

 

So, like all other "facts" you read on the inter-web, you'll have to either trust this information or not until it is verified or contradicted by a more reputable source. Are any reviewers reading this thread?

 

[Edit: missing word]

Edited July 10, 2008 by J-Way

[+Mule Ears]

I recently requested and received permission from a small business to place this cache at the site of an eccentric roadside attraction. The situation was simplified by the fact that this was not a strip mall with a property management company and multiple lessees. I only had to persuade the owner.

 

My pitch was just to explain Geocaching as simply as possible, describe the intended 'installation,' say that I'd come around periodically to check up on the cache, and humbly request permission for the placement.

 

What's important, I think, is what I didn't do: I did not make claims that this would bring in customers or otherwise be of any value to the business! I own and run a small business myself, and every scoundrel who wants to waste my time and money starts out by making transparently ridiculous claims about how their product/service/cause will expand my customer base or burnish my company's image. It's become a reflex to reject these requests out of hand. You're asking a favor, so say so. If you do otherwise, you run the risk of being lumped in with the kind of offers--equipment financing, stock tips, vacation packages, discount health insurance--that businesses are bombarded with and weary of.

[+ReadyOrNot]

There are certain forum regulars who tend to drag their personal crusade agenda into every thread they visit, whether it’s on-topic or not.

 

I couldn't be more on-topic there pal. He asked about permission and my response was that no explicit permission was needed.

 

There are certain forum regulars (names will not be mentioned) who seem to think that anytime someone disagrees with them that they are posting off-topic and have a personal crusade agenda.

[+WRASTRO]

There are certain forum regulars who tend to drag their personal crusade agenda into every thread they visit, whether it’s on-topic or not.

 

I couldn't be more on-topic there pal. He asked about permission and my response was that no explicit permission was needed.

 

There are certain forum regulars (names will not be mentioned) who seem to think that anytime someone disagrees with them that they are posting off-topic and have a personal crusade agenda.

Wow, are your ears burning or something? I didn't see you mentioned in the post.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Just be prepared. When they ask how it could help business, have an idea. If they ask how much added traffic it will bring, have some sort of number that you can give them. Sell the upsides, but don't be discouraged if they say no.

Except for Cracker Barrel and WalMart caches I can't think of a cache I have found where I did business at the location, so I would be very careful telling business owners that the cache will draw paying traffic!

 

I just explain the game, show them the actual cache that I want to hide, show them where I want to hide it (or ask them where I can hide it) and ask their permission.

 

I tell them the game is open to the public, that people might hunt it at all hours of the day and night, but that my experience with geocachers is that the game draws first-rate outdoorsy technically-oriented types who I have never seen do damage to anything.

 

Haven't been turned down yet, in fact all of the businesses where I have caches delight in watching cachers look for them.

 

The simple truth is always your best bet!

[Clan Riffster]

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of these types of caches do not have explicit permission, nor do they need explicit permission.

Therein lies the great GC contradiction...

 

From the Tips on hiding your first cache page:

"Step 1 - Research a cache location

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!"

That seems pretty clear to me. Hide a cache on private property = explicit permission.

But these are only tips, not guidelines.

 

The Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines are far more lax on that issue, saying only:

"Off-limit (Physical) Caches

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location"

 

The current method leaves the term "adequate" kinda up in the air, especially as compared to the aforementioned tips. We know that, if a land manager of a piece of public land says "No caches allowed", GC will do its utmost to prevent any listings of caches on those lands from being published. This is how it should be, in my opinion. Our game cannot last if we, the players, and them, the GC management, collectively ignore the wishes of land managers. It seems untoward that GC has stricter policies in place for public land, than they do for private property. From a legal perspective, I agree that it would be dang near impossible to prosecute someone for hiding a film can in a Wally World lamp post kilt, but does that make it OK for GC to ignore the fact that the property involved is private, and that the owners quite likely would not appreciate us playing games there?

 

Whilst GC refuses to promote the idea of explicit permission for hides on private property, it is an idea I continue to preach, as I feel it builds a positive relationship between caching and property owners. I hope that, some day, GC will follow suit.

 

If permission were required for these types of finds, we wouldn't see very many of them... Hmmmmm... Maybe not a bad thing eh?

Thou art a most wise sock, sir!

[+KBI]

There are certain forum regulars who tend to drag their personal crusade agenda into every thread they visit, whether it’s on-topic or not.

I couldn't be more on-topic there pal. He asked about permission and my response was that no explicit permission was needed.

Relax ... no need to get defensive. You saw an opportunity to get in your dig, and you went for it.

 

It’s right there for everyone to see. You said:

 

If permission were required for these types of finds, we wouldn't see very many of them... Hmmmmm... Maybe not a bad thing eh?

You made your regularly-scheduled off-topic slur against those whose preferences you consider to be inferior to yours. Why get cranky when someone calls you on it? Why not just own up to it?

[Mr.Yuck]

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of these types of caches do not have explicit permission, nor do they need explicit permission.

Therein lies the great GC contradiction...

 

From the Tips on hiding your first cache page:

"Step 1 - Research a cache location

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!"

That seems pretty clear to me. Hide a cache on private property = explicit permission.

But these are only tips, not guidelines.

 

 

Ah yes, the oft-quoted "tips" for hiding your first cache. Yepper, sounds like you should get explicit permission to me for sure. Not to mention, that document OBVIOUSLY implies that that first hide should be in a great location, and a regular sized cache with swag. They really need to update that. Or do they?

[+KBI]

They really need to update that. Or do they?

Nah.

 

But these are only tips, not guidelines.

[+D@nim@l]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

[+Renegade Knight]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

 

Not really. I never put that kind of info on my caches. It's enough that I list them. If the land owner specifically requests that I do that, then I will follow their wishes.

[Mr.Yuck]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

 

Not really. I never put that kind of info on my caches. It's enough that I list them. If the land owner specifically requests that I do that, then I will follow their wishes.

 

I've said that before D@nim@l, and a bunch of people stepped up and said they don't do it. Perhaps RK was even one of them. I know I sure would (and have). But I guess it depends on where it is, a gas station parking lot, TB hotel on your front porch in the suburbs, wooded rural location etc...

[+sbell111]

Just be prepared. When they ask how it could help business, have an idea. If they ask how much added traffic it will bring, have some sort of number that you can give them. Sell the upsides, but don't be discouraged if they say no.

Except for Cracker Barrel and WalMart caches I can't think of a cache I have found where I did business at the location, so I would be very careful telling business owners that the cache will draw paying traffic! ...

There is a difference between traffic and customers. A business owner would be interested to know traffic numbers for a few reasons. First, it is certainly true that people that are led to the store may shop at the store, if not today, perhaps down the road. Second, the business owner would want to know that there won't be so many people wandering about that his regular customers can't access the business.

Edited July 11, 2008 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

Not really. I never put that kind of info on my caches. It's enough that I list them. If the land owner specifically requests that I do that, then I will follow their wishes.

I've said that before D@nim@l, and a bunch of people stepped up and said they don't do it. Perhaps RK was even one of them. I know I sure would (and have). But I guess it depends on where it is, a gas station parking lot, TB hotel on your front porch in the suburbs, wooded rural location etc...

I don't do that because it is superfluous. When I submit a cache, I check a box stating that it met the guidelines. Therefore, I am already affirming that adequate permission was received. There is no reason to state this again.

[+D@nim@l]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

Not really. I never put that kind of info on my caches. It's enough that I list them. If the land owner specifically requests that I do that, then I will follow their wishes.

I've said that before D@nim@l, and a bunch of people stepped up and said they don't do it. Perhaps RK was even one of them. I know I sure would (and have). But I guess it depends on where it is, a gas station parking lot, TB hotel on your front porch in the suburbs, wooded rural location etc...

I don't do that because it is superfluous. When I submit a cache, I check a box stating that it met the guidelines. Therefore, I am already affirming that adequate permission was received. There is no reason to state this again.

 

All should be as honest as you, however it would be naive to think that every cache placed on commercial property was placed with permission despite "checking the box" so stating. If the reviewers upon review of the available maps and recon photos, point blank asked the hider via a note "With whom did you secure permission?" it would be different story.

[+Renegade Knight]

...All should be as honest as you, however it would be naive to think that every cache placed on commercial property was placed with permission despite "checking the box" so stating. If the reviewers upon review of the available maps and recon photos, point blank asked the hider via a note "With whom did you secure permission?" it would be different story.

 

If a finder doesn't trust that simple fact that eache cache listed has an owner who has said they have adequate permssion then rather than make more work for the reviewer to comfort them in their time of "does this have the kind of permission that I as one of a bazillion finders thinks it should have" need. I think each and every finder should do their own legwork or pass on the caches that they are not sure about.

[+sbell111]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

Not really. I never put that kind of info on my caches. It's enough that I list them. If the land owner specifically requests that I do that, then I will follow their wishes.

I've said that before D@nim@l, and a bunch of people stepped up and said they don't do it. Perhaps RK was even one of them. I know I sure would (and have). But I guess it depends on where it is, a gas station parking lot, TB hotel on your front porch in the suburbs, wooded rural location etc...

I don't do that because it is superfluous. When I submit a cache, I check a box stating that it met the guidelines. Therefore, I am already affirming that adequate permission was received. There is no reason to state this again.

All should be as honest as you, however it would be naive to think that every cache placed on commercial property was placed with permission despite "checking the box" so stating. If the reviewers upon review of the available maps and recon photos, point blank asked the hider via a note "With whom did you secure permission?" it would be different story.

Just a couple thoughts:

• I don't believe it to be healthy to go through life working from the assumption that everything that everyone states is a lie.
  
• The bit that you posted from the guidelines did not require any cacher to list the person's name who gave them permission. It merely requested that we state that permission was received. Including the individual's name on the cache page is a very bad idea, in my opinion, for reasons given in the various other threads regarding this issue.
  
• If you presume that someone does 'lie' and check the box stating that adequate permission was obtained, when it had not, what would stop them from typing 'Adequate permission for this cache placement has been received.' in the description?
  
• I mss Auntie Weasel.
  

[+D@nim@l]

This is from the guidelines, too.

 

"If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache."

 

Guess if it's not on there it must not exist?

Not really. I never put that kind of info on my caches. It's enough that I list them. If the land owner specifically requests that I do that, then I will follow their wishes.

I've said that before D@nim@l, and a bunch of people stepped up and said they don't do it. Perhaps RK was even one of them. I know I sure would (and have). But I guess it depends on where it is, a gas station parking lot, TB hotel on your front porch in the suburbs, wooded rural location etc...

I don't do that because it is superfluous. When I submit a cache, I check a box stating that it met the guidelines. Therefore, I am already affirming that adequate permission was received. There is no reason to state this again.

All should be as honest as you, however it would be naive to think that every cache placed on commercial property was placed with permission despite "checking the box" so stating. If the reviewers upon review of the available maps and recon photos, point blank asked the hider via a note "With whom did you secure permission?" it would be different story.

Just a couple thoughts:

• I don't believe it to be healthy to go through life working from the assumption that everything that everyone states is a lie.
  
• The bit that you posted from the guidelines did not require any cacher to list the person's name who gave them permission. It merely requested that we state that permission was received. Including the individual's name on the cache page is a very bad idea, in my opinion, for reasons given in the various other threads regarding this issue.
  
• If you presume that someone does 'lie' and check the box stating that adequate permission was obtained, when it had not, what would stop them from typing 'Adequate permission for this cache placement has been received.' in the description?
  
• I mss Auntie Weasel.
  

 

You're absolutely right, nothing stops anybody from doing anything and I don't think it is necessary to list an individual's name on the cache page. That could be handled by the cacher/reviewer via note and would be there as a reference should a concern arise. The button just says "Yes. I have read and understand the guidelines for listing a cache." It doesn't say I agree with them or will follow them.

 

Now, if we lived in your world there would be no need for reviewers because everybody would do everything they were supposed by reading the guidelines, tips, securing permission, etc. There is likely to be a lot more geocoins and red, yellow, green and white jeep travel bugs in circulation and a lot less armchair caching, virtual logs, forum angst, banning of members, stolen caches, sock puppets, bomb scares and LEO encounters and we could find caches when we went to Cracker Barrel.

 

I think there should be sense of personal responsibility when it comes to hiding, however I think a blind eye gets turned to these concerns for other reasons. "Don't ask, don't tell".

[+sbell111]

... Now, if we lived in your world there would be no need for reviewers because everybody would do everything they were supposed by reading the guidelines, tips, securing permission, etc. ...

Do not twist my position. It doesn't help you make a point. It has the opposite effect.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Anyone with much common sense and experience in this game knows geocaching's 'dirty little secret'; that the vast majority of caches are placed without regard to permission and thus have no permission at all.

 

Threads like this arise when someone wants to get attention and try to 'out' that well-known 'secret'.

 

Carrying it on just feeds their need.

 

I suspect that if every cache were examined for 'adequate' permission we'd have to archive 50% the caches out there... if examined for 'explicit' permission we'd have to archive 90%.

 

Leave it alone, the game's working fine.

[+D@nim@l]

... Now, if we lived in your world there would be no need for reviewers because everybody would do everything they were supposed by reading the guidelines, tips, securing permission, etc. ...

Do not twist my position. It doesn't help you make a point. It has the opposite effect.

 

OK, why do we have reviewers?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

OK, why do we have reviewers?

For the same reason we have to have police - people in societies behave only when law is enforced upon them. That's been the history of societies and governments throughout time... in fact that's what GOVERNment means! The Groundspeak Guidelines are no different.

 

Without active Reviewers this game would fast devolve into chaos.

[+D@nim@l]

OK, why do we have reviewers?

For the same reason we have to have police - people in societies behave only when law is enforced upon them. That's been the history of societies and governments throughout time... in fact that's what GOVERNment means! The Groundspeak Guidelines are no different.

 

Without active Reviewers this game would fast devolve into chaos.

 

But i checked the box???

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

OK, why do we have reviewers?

For the same reason we have to have police - people in societies behave only when law is enforced upon them. That's been the history of societies and governments throughout time... in fact that's what GOVERNment means! The Groundspeak Guidelines are no different.

 

Without active Reviewers this game would fast devolve into chaos.

 

But i checked the box???

[Mr.Yuck]

Anyone with much common sense and experience in this game knows geocaching's 'dirty little secret'; that the vast majority of caches are placed without regard to permission and thus have no permission at all.

 

Threads like this arise when someone wants to get attention and try to 'out' that well-known 'secret'.

 

Carrying it on just feeds their need.

 

I suspect that if every cache were examined for 'adequate' permission we'd have to archive 50% the caches out there... if examined for 'explicit' permission we'd have to archive 90%.

 

Leave it alone, the game's working fine.

 

Oh, I think the OP is sincere. Even though he hasn't shown up since asking the question. He only has 1 (new) hide in a park. Maybe he really doesn't really know that only 1/10th of 1 percent of caches on private property in parking lots have permission. (I know, I just made that up).

 

I for one am for the Frisbee rule on public property with no existing geocaching policies. I'm for explicit permission in people's parking lots. I think it's an embarrasment that we play this game on people's private property, while the reviewers look the other way. (The people around here who will argue until they're blue in the face that playing a game in someone's parking lot without permission is somehow "adequate permission" not withstanding).

Edited July 11, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I can't speak to the OP's motivation.

 

It's an easy topic to target for folks who need a bit of drama however.

 

Like a politician choosing a safe stance on some issue he knows he can't easily be attacked for...

 

No smoking on city streets? He can jump all over that without fear of any serious resistance. Nobody can make a serious argument that they have a right to pollute your airspace.

 

No caches in cemeteries? An easy win... caching in cemeteries is hard to defend outside of a portion of the geocaching community.

 

No permission? Easy to score a win, nobody can stand up with a straight face and make a convincing argument that 'we don't need no steenkin' permission'.

 

Any time someone wants to show how virtuous, pure, blameless and politically-correct they are as opposed to the mass of us unwashed sinners then they can bring this one up.

Edited July 11, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler