Projecting waypoints

[+SSO JOAT]

I'm constructing a mystery/puzzle cache. To get to the final waypoint, I want the cacher to decode a bearing and distance (they've already decoded 2 other waypoints to get to this spot) that they will then use to create a projected waypoint for the final cache. Due to a creek and valley, there would be no easy way to go straight to the final cache from the point where they make the waypoint projection, but they will have to backtrack up a trail system to a bridge and use another trail system to get close to the final spot.

 

I know all Garmins will easily make a projected waypoint, but I'm not so familiar with current offerings by Magellan, Lawrence, etc. So before I go forth with this method, I'd like to hear a little input that this will be doable (within a 3 or 4 star difficulty rating) with most GPSr's out there. I'm also considering including some basic instructions at that stage on how to create a projected waypoint to help out cachers who may not have done this before. I would also include a note in the cache listing that they need to be able to create a projected waypoint.

 

Good, bad, or thoughts?

[+LifeOnEdge!]

I think you're general idea is good, but you're adding a feature that does little to add to a good multi-cache. Here are my thoughts:

 

A cache with multiple stages should probably be listed as a multi-cache, not a puzzle cache. (I would much rather have credit for finding a multi-cache than a puzzle cache and find that too many multi's are listed as single stage caches or puzzle caches.)

 

If you want to educate cachers on how to project a waypoint, excellent! Offset caches are generally seen as multi-caches since the cache location is not at the posted coordinates. Create a cache where you post coordinates to a trailhead, then project one or two more points to the final.

 

If you want to create a puzzle cache, do that. Think of an interesting puzzle, maybe to educate or illustrate cachers on some other concept. Concentrate your time on clarity and making it the best puzzle cache in your area. I wouldn't add another concept to dilute an otherwise great idea.

 

Just my thoughts. "Your mileage my vary." - Pat

[+Happy Humphrey]

I don't know about other brands, but some commonly-used Garmin GPSr's only project waypoints to +/- 0.1 miles, so people may need a big hint to get them to the exact spot.

[+SSO JOAT]

It's definitely a multi-cache, but the puzzle solving is the heart of this hunt. In fact, it's going to replace an archived multi that was in the same area. The owner of that one didn't want to rebuild it after the final cache container went missing and said that the spot was fine for me to take and put up a new cache. That was coupled with a challenge by another local cacher who is big on FTF. In fact, he's FTF on most of the caches in our area, so I'm using this area that is perfect for a multi to put in a higher difficulty puzzle type cache to give him and several other local cachers a good challenge. I've got it pretty much mapped out and am to the point of building the hide containers. It will probably be about 2 weeks before everything is ready to publish. I was thinking this would be a multi instead of a mystery, but I haven't really got down to those details of naming and such as I'm working out the nuts and bolts right now.

 

Let me go ahead and share the general outline of the cache structure. The published waypoints are to the trailhead parking lot right in front of a large sign for the park (this state park trail system is short but steep and accesses public fishing sites on a river). But before going afield, one must solve a pretty easy Sudoku grid and bring it with them. This grid will be needed to decode the waypoints for some of the stages of the cache. Because a correctly printed grid is needed in the field, I'm linking the cache listing to a PDF file download of the puzzle grid with specific instructions to not scale it when printing. I'm also looking at placing some printed blanks of this grid in a container at the site so a cacher could do this via paperless methods (PDA & GPS get you there and solve Stage 1 and then you pick up and solve the sudoku grid at Stage 2 to finish the course - I solved the grid in less than 5 minutes, so it's a pretty easy one; this is not a challenge about how well you can sudoku).

 

Also on the listing is a partial waypoint for Stage 2 with part of it encoded by letter replacements and instructions on how to decode that at the parking lot (Stage 1). Then there is the Stage 3 waypoint with all the numbers replaced by letters. You won't know how to decode this until you get to Stage 2 in the field. Stage 3 has something to do with the sudoku grid, but you don't know what at this point. Stage 4 also requires you to be able to enter a waypoint via projection of bearing and distance to get the final large cache at Stage 5. Being that I'm in the medical field, the FTF prize is a really nice first aid pack which I've built that probably has a "street value" of well over $100, so the incentive is there and the challenge and work required to get there must match.

 

When they get to the parking lot sign (Stage 1), it is a simple word count/math puzzle provided in the cache listing to complete the minutes portion of the Stage 2 waypoint. There is also a code key that will be taken from this sign (a number equals a letter). It's not too far away in the woods; maybe 50 yards. When you get to that waypoint, I'll have a small container with the blank puzzles in it right next to a small wheel decoder device (built of aluminum, camo'd, and fixed in position via a locked cable to prevent theft). The base has some letters and the wheel has numbers (10 positions on the wheel). Set the key code in, and you can decode the Stage 3 waypoint from the scrambled one provided in the cache listing (which is also printed on the PDF puzzle page, so they don't have to have the cache listing and scratch paper). This waypoint is a bit further off and is accessed via the park trail system.

 

Stage 3 is a decipher grille. Old code technology, but worthy of my needs. The grille is an aluminum plate with holes punched in it that when placed over the top of that sudoku grid, will show you the waypoints for the next spot (the zeros are stamped on the grille as needed). There is an alignment mark cut in it and a matching mark on the printed puzzle so you align them correctly. Instructions are stamped into the plate under the grille. Finding this plate will be a bit of a challenge in itself as I'm going to be using a cable/pulley type hide that is often used with micros in this area to hoist them high up into a tree. The plate is permanently crimped to the cable to prevent theft. But naturally, I'm building a couple of each of these items (grille & decoder wheel) so I can plant a replacement if needed (did I mention that I have a metal fabrication shop at my disposal?).

 

After decoding the next waypoint, they will travel further down this portion of the trail system to a pretty well hidden container (hint... construction involves a chainsaw, router, and many wood working tools). This cache has a small container with its own logbook and instructions to create a projection waypoint from the current one. I'm not sure yet if I will encode the bearing and distance info or just give it to them. At this point, I'm thinking there have been enough ciphers and I'll just provide both true and magnetic bearings with the distance (which is about 0.2 miles line of sight). A basic primer on how to enter a projected waypoint would also be attached here. In fact, this will probably just be a laminated card attached to the small container. Oh, and since this container is going to be a little tricky to figure out, I'm planting a small decoy about 10' away that is a little sign on a cedar board hidden under what will look like a typical cache hide. It will say something to the effect of it not being that easy and you're very close, so keep looking.

 

After punching in the projected waypoint, they should realize that they can't walk straight to it and will have to go back to the parking lot and take the second portion of the trail system the skirts the other side of the creek. Once over there, it will be another well camo'd, but large container set back in the woods. Note, the Garmins I use (GPS12XL, GPSMAP76CSx, & eTrex Vista) allows 0.01 mile accuracy on waypoint projection. Perhaps I can also give the thousandths minute numbers so that after they've punched in the projected point, they can verify it with the last digits?

 

It might sound a bit more complicated than it is, but that's what happens when you try to type this out conversationally. My graphical outline of this multi is clear as a bell to me and everything flows together pretty well. All information needed to solve the stages is in the cache listing and at the cache sites. Since there are actual items in the field that are needed to decode the waypoints, I'm going to make it member-only and do my best to hide and secure them to prevent theft.

 

So, I leave it wide open to comment...

 

Edited August 10, 2008 by SSO JOAT

[+Isonzo Karst]

I have a Magi eX500. If I had a bearing and distance, I'd go to the map screen, move my cursor to the requested bearing and distance (bearing and distance of the cursor from my current position is given on that screen) and hit "go to" - the unit would then "go to" my current cursor position. Super simple. I would not have to carefully orienteer to the point, but could follow available trail. Every Magi I've owned has this option. I'd guess most Garmin's have to too, though their owners may not know it.

[+SSO JOAT]

There's 2 easy ways to project from a Garmin. One is from your current position. Depending on the model, get into the mark waypoint mode like you're going to mark your current position. Then go to the menu (menu button on some, select the options icon on others) and pick "project waypoint". You can then enter a bearing and distance. You can save it, show it on the map, or just pick go to and start navigating.

 

The other method is from an existing waypoint. If you've already got a spot saved (or have a point entered, such as a cache location) you look at the details for that waypoint (find it, waypoint menu, etc.) then you can go to the menu or options screen for that waypoint and select project waypoint same as above. The advantage of using this method is that you're starting from an established point (e.g. published cache waypoint) instead of where the GPS thinks you're standing right at the moment.

 

We used to triangulate a position using waypoint projection in wilderness search and rescue. You've got 2 observers at different locations that are in radio contact. Using a compass, each takes a bearing at the same target landmark (e.g. a distress signal). The GPS operator marks the current position from observer A and makes a waypoint projection on the observed bearing placing a new waypoint well beyond the landmark (double the estimated distance). They then copy and create a waypoint radioed by observer B for their position and then project a waypoint on their bearing (again double the distance). Now, the operator creates a route from his position to his projected waypoint to the other guy's projected waypoint and back to the other guy's position. The route line will make an "X" on the map screen that is the rough position of the target. Pan the cursor to that spot and mark it as a waypoint. Radio that waypoint to the other team and you both navigate to it. It is fast and works really well as a field expedient triangulation method.

[+GIDEON-X]

Myself I've used the waypoint projecting thing with a couple of my cahes and have worked out ok ......the biggest thing is to let them know if you are using True North or Mag.North.........myself I always use mag. north....and post this on the cache page.....check some of the logs on the attached cache

 

PROJECT HERE

[+rjb43nh]

I don't know about other brands, but some commonly-used Garmin GPSr's only project waypoints to +/- 0.1 miles, so people may need a big hint to get them to the exact spot.

 

That is not correct for the Garmin 60CSx that I have. If you use the default (mi) for units when projecting a waypoint, the smallest step is .01 mile, not .1 mile.

 

When you are on the project waypoint screen, 0.00 is highlighted with 'mi' to the right indicating the units. If you use the right arrow to move right and highlight the 'mi', then press 'enter', you can change the units to 'ft', 'yd' 'km', 'm' or 'nm'. after selecting the units use the left arrow to highlight the numeric field again to enter the offset. No matter what units you use the GPS allows you 2 decimal places and if you're using feet that means you have .12 inch resolution, not .1 mile as stated above.

[Tahosa and Sons]

Projuect a waypoint works fine, I've done it on many of my multis. You can also throw in some UTM's and a little math work.

[AZcachemeister]

Previous comments on projection, magnetic/true north, and measurement unit changes are all good.

My Magellans will all do projections.

 

My real comment is that according to current standards, this MUST be listed as a puzzle/mystery (despite the obvious muliti-ness) due to the fact that the seeker must read the cache page to get the instructions on how to proceed.

[+EScout]

Previous comments on projection, magnetic/true north, and measurement unit changes are all good.

My Magellans will all do projections.

My real comment is that according to current standards, this MUST be listed as a puzzle/mystery (despite the obvious muliti-ness) due to the fact that the seeker must read the cache page to get the instructions on how to proceed.

Three of my caches have projections and multiple points. They are listed in as Multi-caches, which is correct for them. They have tags and can be solved completely without reading the cache page (if you are good and do not need hints.) The tags have coordinates or distance and bearing, and I put a T after the bearing for true north, or M for magnetic, and write degrees or mils. For distance, I mark the tag with Ft, M, or Yds. These are navigational exercises, not mysteries (although on one you need to know that a route with 4 waypoints has 3 legs...)

[+Happy Humphrey]

That is not correct for the Garmin 60CSx that I have. If you use the default (mi) for units when projecting a waypoint, the smallest step is .01 mile, not .1 mile.

I know. That's why I said "some" Garmins, not "all" or even "most". Most are fine, but I know to my cost that certain ones (the Gecko series, for instance) only project to 0.1 mile, not 0.01.

[+SSO JOAT]

... according to current standards, this MUST be listed as a puzzle/mystery (despite the obvious muliti-ness) due to the fact that the seeker must read the cache page to get the instructions on how to proceed.

 

Do you have a citation for this? All I find on geocaching.com is that a multi-cache (or offset cache) has multiple locations where each one provides a hint as to the next location. I've done a few multi-cache finds, and they all required you to read the cache page. Without having the cache listing, there was no possible way to have completed some of them. So does that mean they should have been Mystery caches?

 

Conversely, the Mystery or Puzzle cache is where one must solve a puzzle prior to hunting the cache (again, according to geocaching.com). The only thing that is clear is that the cache I'm working on fits into both categories simultaneously. While a simple puzzle must be solved before you can complete this series of caches, each cache most certainly provides a hint to get to the next one. So, technically they ought to have a "Multi-Mystery" or an "Offset Puzzle" cache category.

 

It doesn't matter to me which category it gets filed under, so I'd like to hear a consensus as to whether this should be a multi or a mystery. Which category trumps over the other one?

[AZcachemeister]

... according to current standards, this MUST be listed as a puzzle/mystery (despite the obvious muliti-ness) due to the fact that the seeker must read the cache page to get the instructions on how to proceed.

 

Do you have a citation for this?

 

I don't have time to search for the thread right now, BUT:

I can say there was a recent thread based on someone wanting to hide a cache with a lock on it. (A TB Hotel)

His reviewer insisted that because finders would have to actually read the cache page (to get the combination) it HAD to be listed as a puzzle/mystery.

This is a recent development, since I 'hid' a traditional cache with a lock on it in February with no issues from my reviewer...then again maybe it was an oversight?

 

I'm not a fan of puzzle caches, but it seems to me this BS really waters down the whole category.

 

EDITED: to add the last line.

Edited August 11, 2008 by AZcachemeister

[+SSO JOAT]

So, I've been thinking about this today and have come up with a fix. A slight adjustment to the initial point with a cache container at the published starting WP that has the puzzle and all needed hints to get through the whole series. The download of that page would be still available online so it could be worked out ahead of time, but it would also be doable for a cacher simply hitting the published waypoint (knowing it is a multi) and retrieving a copy of the puzzle and scrambled waypoints from the first small cache. They would then have all info needed to finish the cache in the field, which complies with the posted multi-cache description. Even though it has a puzzle, there is no longer a need for you to physically have the cache listing or the puzzle in advance as the puzzle can be pretty quickly solved in the field at a picnic bench right next to GZ.

 

With that, I think a multi-cache rating would now trump the mystery cache rating and avoid all these grey areas.

[+Happy Humphrey]

...With that, I think a multi-cache rating would now trump the mystery cache rating and avoid all these grey areas.

The guidelines used to be fairly simple: that if the location given was merely to indicate the general area of the cache (or the parking area or trailhead) and otherwise served no useful purpose, then it was always a Mystery cache (even if it turned out to have several stages). For a Multi, you had to go to the location specified, find something, and the trail continued from there.

 

Now that ALR caches have been defined as "Mystery" as well, that no longer holds. The specified location may actually be that of the cache and you can use the coordinates to go straight there, but you may not be allowed to log your find on the web site without some extra work. The idea of classifying these as "Mystery" is just to prevent misunderstanding where cachers just use the coordinates to get there, find the cache and sign the log book and are then annoyed to find that their log gets deleted (or, they find the cache but are surprised that the box is locked).

 

I would say that your current design is a multicache: you can go to the published coordinates and find the next stage from there. That there's a puzzle to solve is not relevant: often a multicache will require the solving of some trivial puzzle or calculation to derive the next coordinates.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

... according to current standards, this MUST be listed as a puzzle/mystery (despite the obvious muliti-ness) due to the fact that the seeker must read the cache page to get the instructions on how to proceed.

 

Do you have a citation for this? All I find on geocaching.com is that a multi-cache (or offset cache) has multiple locations where each one provides a hint as to the next location. I've done a few multi-cache finds, and they all required you to read the cache page. Without having the cache listing, there was no possible way to have completed some of them. So does that mean they should have been Mystery caches?

 

Conversely, the Mystery or Puzzle cache is where one must solve a puzzle prior to hunting the cache (again, according to geocaching.com). The only thing that is clear is that the cache I'm working on fits into both categories simultaneously. While a simple puzzle must be solved before you can complete this series of caches, each cache most certainly provides a hint to get to the next one. So, technically they ought to have a "Multi-Mystery" or an "Offset Puzzle" cache category.

 

It doesn't matter to me which category it gets filed under, so I'd like to hear a consensus as to whether this should be a multi or a mystery. Which category trumps over the other one?

 

Seems to me that the fact that one must solve a Sudoku puzzle to obtain the key that is needed for one of the stages makes this a puzzle cache. I've said this before and I know some disagree but I wish the guidelines would be changed such that if a cache does not have a physical container for each stage with coordinates for the next that it be classified as a puzzle cache.

[AZcachemeister]

So, I've been thinking about this today and have come up with a fix. A slight adjustment to the initial point with a cache container at the published starting WP that has the puzzle and all needed hints to get through the whole series. The download of that page would be still available online so it could be worked out ahead of time, but it would also be doable for a cacher simply hitting the published waypoint (knowing it is a multi) and retrieving a copy of the puzzle and scrambled waypoints from the first small cache. They would then have all info needed to finish the cache in the field, which complies with the posted multi-cache description. Even though it has a puzzle, there is no longer a need for you to physically have the cache listing or the puzzle in advance as the puzzle can be pretty quickly solved in the field at a picnic bench right next to GZ.

 

With that, I think a multi-cache rating would now trump the mystery cache rating and avoid all these grey areas.

 

There ya go! Now you could probably list it either way.

I think I would alert the populace about the 'dual nature', to be fair. If they don't read the page, they will just have to find out for themselves!