A Copyright question

[Neath Worthies]

I've yet to place my first cache but I'd like to know, when I do so who owns the copyright of the data I enter onto the cache page?

 

I've just been reading about this and it seems like it might be coming here soon and I wondered if I would have any control over the information I would have to provide.

[+keehotee]

I've yet to place my first cache but I'd like to know, when I do so who owns the copyright of the data I enter onto the cache page?

 

I've just been reading about this and it seems like it might be coming here soon and I wondered if I would have any control over the information I would have to provide.

 

In a nutshell.............

All comments, articles, tutorials, screenshots, pictures, graphics, tools, downloads, and all other materials submitted to Groundspeak in connection with the Site or available through the Site (collectively, "Submissions") remain the property and copyright of the original author. If You submit Submissions to Groundspeak, You must adhere to any applicable submission guidelines that may be posted from time to time on the Site. By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You.

The foregoing license rights are intended to provide to Groundspeak all rights under existing and future laws, including without limitation all rights under copyright and any other rights personal to You to publish the Submission on the Site, use the Submission in publicity and promotional materials for the Site and to create new Sites or derivative works (including without limitation by combining the Submission with other content) for public display or performance via any and all media or technology now known or later developed. The foregoing rights may be licensed and sublicensed through unlimited tiers of third parties.

Edited May 15, 2009 by keehotee

[+sTeamTraen]

When you submit information to the site, you grant Groundspeak a licence to do what they like with it. So they can certainly sell the cache info to the makers of the Geomate.jr. Otherwise, you retain the copyright. The site Terms of Use sound scary because they were written by a lawyer, but Groundspeak is not a very litigous (or "gotcha") company. To give an unrelated example: in theory the ToU allow them to take any picture from your gallery and put it on the front page of the site, but in practice they almost always ask your permission first.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about your caches ending up in the Geomate.jr. I don't think it will sell very widely outside the US, since making a different version for each smaller country will be inefficient (unless they make one for "all Europe", but then why didn't they include Canadian caches in the US version?) and not many Americans will buy the update for other countries, partly because the kind of people who go caching when they're in another country are more likely to have an Oregon and a premium membership.

 

In any case, AFAICS the Geomate.jr doesn't contain very much text that you typed. You get the GC number, difficulty and terrain - not even the hint, I think.

Edited May 15, 2009 by sTeamTraen

[+Bear and Ragged]

If you are worried, make your cache a short/off-set multi or a puzzle. They are not part of the list of caches loaded into the thing.

 

And from what I've read there is very little, if any, description on it.

[+Moote]

Copyright - Internet

 

I think anything published on the Internet is open to copyright abuse, so if you wish to preserve anything that you want copyright control on then turn off that PC and do it all on paper!

 

I can tell you and I'm sure many will remember a photo of an Ammo tin was taken and edited (slightly)to look as if it was the "editors" own photo.

 

I think you should really have greater worries than the Copyright of your cache details, after all people are being killed in Afghanistan, now worry and think about that; and that puts the Copyright of you cache into perspective.

[+Haggis Hunter]

Copyright - Internet

 

I think anything published on the Internet is open to copyright abuse, so if you wish to preserve anything that you want copyright control on then turn off that PC and do it all on paper!

 

I can tell you and I'm sure many will remember a photo of an Ammo tin was taken and edited (slightly)to look as if it was the "editors" own photo.

 

I think you should really have greater worries than the Copyright of your cache details, after all people are being killed in Afghanistan, now worry and think about that; and that puts the Copyright of you cache into perspective.

Moote does make a fair point, however, being a person who has served in the armed forces and spent several months in Afghanistan soon after the troops first went in. I would like to think I gave that time and ran the risks so that the ordinary person can worry about their rights, no matter how trivial those rights may be to others. Otherwise what is the real point of our troops risking their lives?

 

I do apologise as this may take the subject off topic, and I don't actually want that to happen, but I feel strongly that people should be allowed to express their concerns, no matter how small those concerns are.

[Neath Worthies]

I think you should really have greater worries than the Copyright of your cache details, after all people are being killed in Afghanistan,......

Well excuse me from asking what I thought was a legitimate question. Perhaps I should ask your permission before I write anything here again.

 

Who the hell are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't be thinking?

[+HazelS]

Woah...

 

I think what Moote was trying to say (in true Moote style) was simply that at the end of the day it's a butty box hidden in the woods, not life or death...

 

Sometimes it IS hard to lose perspective when thinking about caching - I do it all the time, but in the grand scale of things in life, it's pretty low down on the "important things" list.

[+HouseOfDragons]

Am I missing something? Unless you are writing a work of fiction in your cache description why is copyright an issue?

 

[Neath Worthies]

Am I missing something? Unless you are writing a work of fiction in your cache description why is copyright an issue?

 

Because it now has the potential of being sold for commercial gain by the website owners rather than being shared freely as has been the case in the past (see link in my first post). No big deal in the grand scheme of things I guess but it would be nice if cache owners could opt in rather than having no control over "their" listings.

[+Von-Horst]

Am I missing something? Unless you are writing a work of fiction in your cache description why is copyright an issue?

 

 

Because GSP are selling the cache listings, which are written works, in return for money.

 

Normally the author of a written work, no matter how trivial, is entitled to a cut of such money in return for the 'creative effort' expended in penning the work.

 

In this instance this is not an issue because, under the terms of use of the site, the author of a cache listing waives any rights and entitlements and GSP can "...offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of [a cache listing you have 'created']...for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

[+Von-Horst]

For more info on copyright, see here

[+FuzzyBears]

I think the OP should be worried about who 'owns' a cache listing.. Very soon we could have people trying to find caches in the UK and the only information they will have is Name, difficulty/terrain and size they will have no description or logs. They also do not even have to look at Geocaching.com never mind join so therefore have not read or agreed to the terms and conditions.

Some of you will remember a couple of years ago that someone was 'put off' suing a UK cacher because they had agreed to the T&C which say you cache at your own risk.

So when a cache description says please approach from the west because there is a nasty cliff face from any other direction and a family don't read it and decide to come in from the east as it's quicker and someone gets hurt.. If they are a GC member you are covered if they are not and have not seen your warning who's fault will it be... I bet it won't be GSP

 

On a less serious note anyone who has a TB or coin in one of these 250,000 caches should keep an eye on them as according to the instructions that come with these units caches contain a log book and trade items with no mention of TBs/coins

[+keehotee]

..... they will have no description or logs. They also do not even have to look at Geocaching.com never mind join so therefore have not read or agreed to the terms and conditions.

Some of you will remember a couple of years ago that someone was 'put off' suing a UK cacher because they had agreed to the T&C which say you cache at your own risk.

 

I would be very surprised if GS had opened themselves up to possible litigation by not having some sort of disclaimer attached to the unit - even if it were just an "in opening this package you agree to be bound by blah blah blah " kind of software agreement.

 

Even so, eventually these units will start appearing secondhand. Where will GS liability stand then - unless there is a Volenti non fit injuria pop-up that you have to agree to everytime you turn it on....??

[+Moote]

I think you should really have greater worries than the Copyright of your cache details, after all people are being killed in Afghanistan,......

Well excuse me from asking what I thought was a legitimate question. Perhaps I should ask your permission before I write anything here again.

 

Who the hell are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't be thinking?

 

I was not saying that you could not ask a legitimate question, I was putting it into perspective.

 

If this site makes no money, then wave goodbye to Geocaching,com, if they add your cache to a device, so what, they have been charging for cache information since nearly day 1, nothing new there, look at the premium member benefits and you will see.

 

If yours mine or anyone's cache is on some device, I'm sure they are on many more out there, difference is, I don't see it. and if you are not lucky enough to have a swanky device then the printer steals all for others. It's the internet, it's not free there is a cost incurred at every stage, and GC.com have to pay their slice of that, as do you. If you want this site and many others to give value for money then work with the business models not brush against them.

 

PS. Thanks Hazel for pointing out that it's my usual way of posting I was not here to defend myself but you helped , cheers

[Neath Worthies]

I was not saying that you could not ask a legitimate question, I was putting it into perspective.

Your perspective, not mine. In any case, I can't be bothered to take it further.

[+Renegade Knight]

I've yet to place my first cache but I'd like to know, when I do so who owns the copyright of the data I enter onto the cache page?

 

I've just been reading about this and it seems like it might be coming here soon and I wondered if I would have any control over the information I would have to provide.

 

You own the copyright. Groundspeak owns a lisence to use your copyrighted info so they can go about the business of listing your cache and running a cache website without having to worrry about hundreds of thousands of different copyright holders.

 

Edit: And apparently to let a company pre-install caches on their GPS. Which does have me concerned. Especially if that install doesn't have my cache page write up on it.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[Neath Worthies]

Just seen this post in the US forum and it seems that the unit will soon be able to download cache coordinates in the UK

With the Update Kit you will be able to refresh the default filtered list of approximately 250,000 geocaches. You will also be able to select unfiltered regions and also lists for other countries.

Let's hope that UK specific concerns (such as never searching in dry stone walls) are somehow communicated to unknowing newbies. I shan't be holding my breath though.

[+keehotee]

Let's hope that UK specific concerns (such as never searching in dry stone walls) are somehow communicated to unknowing newbies. I shan't be holding my breath though.

 

As far as I know there's nothing in place anywhere to stop people here or elsewhere searching in dry stone walls - especially for all those UK caches placed in dry stone walls before the GAGB guidelines were written !!!

 

As newbies yourselves, can I ask how you found out not to place a cache in a dry stone wall? Presumably other newbies will find out the same way?

Edited May 23, 2009 by keehotee

[Neath Worthies]

Let's hope that UK specific concerns (such as never searching in dry stone walls) are somehow communicated to unknowing newbies. I shan't be holding my breath though.

 

As far as I know there's nothing in place anywhere to stop people here or elsewhere searching in dry stone walls - especially for all those UK caches placed in dry stone walls before the GAGB guidelines were written !!!

 

As newbies yourselves, can I ask how you found out not to place a cache in a dry stone wall? Presumably other newbies will find out the same way?

Yes I'm a newbie but I have read the guidelines, I've read the forums and have seen the UK guidelines listed on GAGB. I doubt that users of this unit will bother to do the same. As a regular walker I come across dry stone walls frequently and I know how fragile they can be, especially if people start pulling them apart while looking for a small plastic box.

 

It seems to me that by stressing the point that NO cache can EVER be placed in such a location then people will not be tempted to look there. BY bypassing the need to read cache pages this message mey well be missed.

[+uktim]

I've yet to place my first cache but I'd like to know, when I do so who owns the copyright of the data I enter onto the cache page?

 

I've just been reading about this and it seems like it might be coming here soon and I wondered if I would have any control over the information I would have to provide.

 

As I understand it the data being sold on the device is the Cache number (which is allocated by Groundspeak) and the cache co-ordinates (which are generated on a GPS as a universal way of defining the location of something that is most likely hidden on someone elses property.) I find it hard to see how either of these can be the copyright of the cache owner

[+sTeamTraen]

Because it now has the potential of being sold for commercial gain by the website owners rather than being shared freely as has been the case in the past (see link in my first post).

I think that in fact Groundspeak has always, more or less, sold the cache data for commercial gain. If you're a premium member then you pay to have the cache data sliced and diced in a PQ; if you're a basic member then you have to put up with Google ads etc. It's only free in the sense that watching ITV is free; you pay for it every time you buy an advertised product. (OT: My wife occasionally buys something by l'Oreal, who seem to represent about 90% of all TV advertising, so maybe I know own Britain's Got Talent.)

 

This is a huge chunk of Groundspeak's business model, and it's what keeps the site running. I have a couple of concerns about the data in the Geomate.jr (notably what happens when unitiated people find coins and take them as swag) but for the moment, the sky has not begun to fall. I'd be surprised if the device made it to Europe at all; for the moment the caches are USA only and it isn't even sold in Canada.