Should this cache be published?

[+BigCatMomma]

I discussed this cache here in the forums before actually placing it, and feel I have a cache that meets all of the guidelines. However, my reviewer has archived the cache.

 

Here is the cache description:

 

"Final destination for BigCatMomma's Kittens TBs

 

This cache is placed on private property with the permission of the Executive Director of the El Paso Humane Society. Hours of access are restricted to 10 AM to 4:30 PM Mon - Sat and 10 AM to 3:30 PM Sun. Even if you don't have one of BigCatMomma's Kittens TBs to deliver, feel free to visit the cache and exchange items. Try to keep items pet-related. "

 

And the hint:

 

"Look inside,

That's where I hide.

I'm so blue,

And furry, too."

 

Here is the reviewer's reasoning for archiving the cache:

 

"I'm sorry, but unless you want to relocate this outside the building, I'm afraid I can't publish this. The placement of this inside the lobby can only be seen as a way to promote the Humane Society. As noted in the guidelines, "caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda." While you say "Visitors to the cache do not need to involve the staff in their visit", that's most likely going to happen whether or not the cachers wants it. "

 

First, and in retrospect, I think the reviewer might be confusing the Humane Society, whose mission is to take in pets which for whatever reason the owner can no longer keep and adopt them out to people who are looking for pets, with the animal control shelter whose mission is to enforce the city's ordinances concerning stray animals, or the ASPCA whose mission is to promote humane treatment of animals and seek punishment for those who treat animals inhumanely.

 

Second, and having read the guidelines VERY CAREFULLY, there is no prohibition against having a cache within a building, and I can even cite examples of caches within buildings that in my humble opinion push the envelope far more than my cache does.

 

Third, note that my cache is very careful to not promote the services of the Humane Society, request a donation to them, or even ask people to play with the animals while they are there. In fact, the lobby area where the cache is does not house animals - they are housed in completely separate buildings. It is up front about the fact that the cache is located there, as well as the fact that it's inside the building. But the cache container itself - one of those "kitty condos" you see for sale at pet shops - is out in the open and does not require cachers to interact with the facility's staff to access it. It's not even located at their desk - it's in a corner away from the reception desk (and visible from near the front door).

 

I placed this cache where it is for two reasons: 1) It's logical that a kitten that strays ends up in a shelter, and I have a series of TBs that all have little kitten hitchhikers that I intend to activate. I travel frequently and would like to see their "adventures" as they make their way back home (aka "The Incredible Journey"). 2) I wanted people to be able to visit the cache and take some of the swag even if they didn't have a TB to deliver, and the swag consists of pet-related stuff, including toys and treats. Given the treats in the cache, outside is NOT obviously a good option! (At least not if I don't want a cacher greeted by a formerly hungry skunk.)

 

Here are examples of caches I think go far beyond the location on the guidelines envelope where I believe my cache lies:

 

1. Any cache which is located within a state park and which requires an entrance fee. In my opinion, this could be construed as promoting the business of the park. And there are LOTS of caches out there that meet this definition, including caches locally within the State of Texas' Franklin Mountains State Park (which explicitly state they are placed to get more visitors into the park), caches placed by the New Mexico State Parks system to promote their 75th anniversary, and caches located on Arizona Public Land which require a $50 annual permit to access.

 

2. Caches like GC1847J ("Take a Hike or Get Taken for a Ride") which not only requires either a park entrance fee or a tram ride fee but is also located inside the gift shop at the top of the tramway and requires that you ask the rangers for the cache. How does this cache not promote the commercial interests of the park?

 

3. Caches like GC155CH ("Welcome to Raton") which both require cachers to interact with the staff (you ask for it at the desk) and which are located in a facility whose sole purpose is to promote the businesses and tourist attractions in the area?

 

4. Caches like GCD8E2 ("Border Patrol") which, although there is no entrance fee, require you to sign the museum's visitor's log which is located right next to the donation box as well as walk throughout the museum and past their gift sales area multiple times (which is not physically separate from the exhibits). Plus, the Border Patrol promulgates a definite political agenda that not everyone agrees with regarding recreational drugs, illegal immigration, and more specifically the border fence - the latter of which is such a hot political topic locally that there have been heated protests over it - and that agenda is quite evident in the museum.

 

5. Caches like GC1R1JE ("Dinners Delight 2") which is not at all shy about promoting the nearby restaurant: "Please try them out when over there caching. The food is good, the service is great and atmosplere is nice. Their hous are 5thirty to 9pm."

 

So, as you can see, I don't feel that my cache has in any way pushed the envelope set forth in the guidelines and should be published. I feel that I have taken the advice I got from the forums earlier and have been very careful to ensure that the cache meets all of the guidelines. I am currently appealing the reviewer's decision. But what say you?

[+scorpio_dark]

Wow, that's a long post.

 

I think that your cache listing as posted is clear. Doesn't sound like a humane society promo to me. Also it makes sense with your pet related plans.

 

I am wondering what stops you from putting it outside as they requested? Not saying you should, but thinking you could.

 

If the reviewer won't turn the decision around, might I suggest a dog park or something? I know it's not quite what you were after, but just a thought.

 

EDIT: Ah! Going back to read I see why you don't want it to be outside. But isn't no food a rule in any case, whether the individual cache owner solves it or not?

Edited August 14, 2009 by scorpio_dark

[knowschad]

Although you now deny any agenda, your original post was titled, Using TBs for charitable causes, and you began your post with the following:

 

I would like to set up a series of TBs that would travel back "home" for a charitable cause. Specifically, I want them to travel to my local Humane Society shelter, and with each one that returns I would make a donation to the shelter (and then send the bug back out on its mission). I see this as a fun way to combine caching with my desire to support this charitable cause.

 

As was pointed out by many in that original thread, your cache very clearly has an agenda.

 

You followed webscouter's suggestion in the wording you used for your submission, but apparently it didn't mask your true intentions enough for the satisfaction of the reviewer. I would work with your reviewer to see what would be acceptable.

[+briansnat]

Why do you insist on placing it inside? Couldn't you place it in the parking lot, or under the front stairs, or in any bushes, or a similar area outside?

 

The requrement to go inside reeks of an agenda to me, so I have to side with the reviewer on this.

 

As a far a pointing to other caches, you should know after reading the guidelines the publishing of one cache does not justify similar ones.

 

I'll also point out that state parks and non profits with entry fees are exempt from the commercial guideline. That addresses several of your examples. I don't know the specifics of the others, but they may have been placed before the guidline was in place and grandfathered, they may have been altered after publishing, or it is possible that a different reviewer may have had a different interpretation of a guideline. Their existence however is irrelevant to your situation.

Edited August 14, 2009 by briansnat

[+StarBrand]

I think the cache might actually stray into the promotion of the Humane Society a bit even if you did not intend for that to happen. Placing it outside probably cures that. Requiring a person to enter the building's lobby nearly forces some form of interaction with a clerk or secretary and exposure to the lititure within.

 

The other caches you mention are an irrelevant argument. The simple existance of another similar cache is not reason for your to exist.

 

From the guidelines:

A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

(bolding added by me)

 

and

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache.

[+BigCatMomma]

Wow, that's a long post.

 

I think that your cache listing as posted is clear. Doesn't sound like a humane society promo to me. Also it makes sense with your pet related plans.

 

I am wondering what stops you from putting it outside as they requested? Not saying you should, but thinking you could.

 

If the reviewer won't turn the decision around, might I suggest a dog park or something? I know it's not quite what you were after, but just a thought.

 

On placing outside, again: the cache has cat and dog treats in it, as well as catnip toys. It will get invaded by local wildlife (insects, lizards, and perhaps even a skunk). The area is fenced and the fence is locked during non-business hours, but that doesn't keep critters from getting to the cache.

 

Second, I don't see how bringing a cacher to the door of the Humane Society is any different than having them go into the building.

 

The main difference that I see between my cache and examples I cited is that there is nothing to buy inside the Humane Society building, no donation box, and my cache doesn't require that you ask the staff for it. In short, it's less intrusive and potentially promoting of commercial interests. The Executive Director has embraced it largely as a mechanism to spread the word as to the location of the facility, as this is a new facility (has been open for less than 6 months) and quite distant from where the old one was. Plus, she checked out the geocaching.com website and thinks it's cool.

 

I'd have to do some radical changes to place the cache outside, including changing the cache container itself. (The real pain here is that I cannot contact my local reviewer without actually going to the time and expense of placing a cache, as his/her only mechanism for communication is through review posts on the cache page, so I am already out the money for the cache container - $30.)

[knowschad]

You can email your reviewer (PrimeReviewer, I assume?) from his profile page email link.

 

Of those caches that you mentioned, two are from 2007, and one is from 2003. Only the last one is current. Not that it matters, as others have pointed out.

[+StarBrand]

...On placing outside, again: the cache has cat and dog treats in it, as well as catnip toys. It will get invaded by local wildlife (insects, lizards, and perhaps even a skunk). The area is fenced and the fence is locked during non-business hours, but that doesn't keep critters from getting to the cache....

 

That actually gives the reviewer another reason to deny your cache.

 

Again - from the guidelines:

Cache Contents

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

 

Food items are always a bad idea. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because food items (or items that smell like food) are in the cache. Even the presence of mint flavored dental floss has led to destruction of one cache.

 

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

[+briansnat]

The real pain here is that I cannot contact my local reviewer without actually going to the time and expense of placing a cache, as his/her only mechanism for communication is through review posts on the cache page

 

There is nothing keeping you from e-mailing a reviewer through his profile. The request to keep contact limited to notes to reviewers on the cache page only applies to discussions regarding each cache. Its a handy way for the reviewer to keep all coorrespondence in oen place and have a permanet record of your discussion on the cache page.

 

Once a cache has been archived, or if you have any other questions for your reviewer you are free to e-mail him through his profile.

[+BigCatMomma]

"I'll also point out that state parks and non profits with entry fees are exempt from the commercial guideline."

 

So why then is a nonprofit WITHOUT an entry fee not exempt?

 

I can appreciate the allusions to my former posts, but please also note that at no time did I say I wanted a CACHER to make a donation to this organization. I would be the one to do so, and I took the advice of those who said I should make sure the wording within the cache description clear in that regard.

 

I think the guideline is being over-interpreted. I also think there are clear, logical reasons for where it was placed, but I feel a bit cheated by the system when I find I will have to go to an additional (and likely costly) expense to model a new cache container simply so it can be placed on the outside of the door rather than on the inside. As I said, I can't communicate with my reviewer until the cache is placed, and I've already gone to some expense on this.

[+StarBrand]

.... As I said, I can't communicate with my reviewer until the cache is placed, and I've already gone to some expense on this.

As already pointed out - yes you can.

 

All the reviewers I know are very glad to anser emailed questions about proposed hides before the hide is actually made. Saves a lot of review time and protests.

[+The Blorenges]

I remember your original Topic about this idea and I gave my thoughts on that thread.

 

I'm not surprised at the reviewer's decision on this one. I think having the cache inside the premises of the Humane Society is a step too close. I appreciate that you say that no direct interaction is required, there's no collecting boxes there for donations etc but if I was brought to such a location I would feel slightly obligated to interact and would probably make some sort of donation there somewhere... someway.

 

I agree with others that you should move it out of the building and place it (maybe) just inside the entrance gateway, or whatever, or at the parking area. Then you're leaving the individual cachers the option of how much "interaction" they want to be involved in, at this site.

 

MrsB

[+scorpio_dark]

I would like to set up a series of TBs that would travel back "home" for a charitable cause. Specifically, I want them to travel to my local Humane Society shelter, and with each one that returns I would make a donation to the shelter (and then send the bug back out on its mission). I see this as a fun way to combine caching with my desire to support this charitable cause.

 

As was pointed out by many in that original thread, your cache very clearly has an agenda.

 

 

Looks like the cache itself may support an agenda carried by her TB's, but the cache description I read doesn't seem to have one. While I guess the TB agenda could be grounds for dismissing the cache (and I may personally agree), does a reviewer have that power? Well, you could note the " . . platform for an agenda part" of the reviewers cited guideline.

 

Your point works in my mind . . . BUT, the reviewer is not on that point in the letter that was sent:

 

 

Here is the reviewer's reasoning for archiving the cache:

 

"I'm sorry, but unless you want to relocate this outside the building, I'm afraid I can't publish this. The placement of this inside the lobby can only be seen as a way to promote the Humane Society. As noted in the guidelines, "caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda." While you say "Visitors to the cache do not need to involve the staff in their visit", that's most likely going to happen whether or not the cachers wants it. "

 

Looks like the reviewer sees it being in the building as the promotion of the humane society.

 

I find it strange to worry about staff becoming involved because I think all that a staff member will say is: "May I help you." And a cacher will have the opportunity to tell them about geocaching. OR did I mistakenly type in "hermit-cachers.com"

[+BigCatMomma]

I guess from what I'm seeing here I should just ditch this cache entirely.

 

But I'm angry.

 

Sure, caching is a "fun family activity" but I can't put in a cache with stuff in it that people can take for their pets. (Note it is a recommendation to not put smelly stuff in a cache, not a prohibition.)

 

I can't place a cache where that stuff will be safeguarded, even though plenty of other caches are inside buildings that in my frank opinion do more to solicit for charitable causes or promote businesses than mine does.

 

I have to go to the expense of placing the cache and then find out I can't place the cache.

 

I do all this after I have ASKED in the forums how to go about doing it and taken that advice.

 

I am sorry I bought a premium membership. I wish I could get my money back. I am sorry I bought TBs from geocaching.com and wish I could get THAT money back. And right now I don't regard caching as a fun activity. In fact, I am seriously considering removing the three other caches I've placed and having them archived because I don't feel like bothering with them anymore.

[+StarBrand]

I guess from what I'm seeing here I should just ditch this cache entirely.

 

But I'm angry.

 

Sure, caching is a "fun family activity" but I can't put in a cache with stuff in it that people can take for their pets. (Note it is a recommendation to not put smelly stuff in a cache, not a prohibition.)

 

I can't place a cache where that stuff will be safeguarded, even though plenty of other caches are inside buildings that in my frank opinion do more to solicit for charitable causes or promote businesses than mine does.

 

I have to go to the expense of placing the cache and then find out I can't place the cache.

 

I do all this after I have ASKED in the forums how to go about doing it and taken that advice.

 

I am sorry I bought a premium membership. I wish I could get my money back. I am sorry I bought TBs from geocaching.com and wish I could get THAT money back. And right now I don't regard caching as a fun activity. In fact, I am seriously considering removing the three other caches I've placed and having them archived because I don't feel like bothering with them anymore.

 

Nobody said you have to ditch the idea. Move it outside.

 

I've place 145+ caches over the 7.5 years I have cached. I've had one rejected outright and had to modify 2 others. It happens to all of us from time-to time. I could admit I was trying to push the guidelines a bit much.

 

No need to commit geocide over this small issue. (especially one I'd have to rate as no more than a 5). Please reconsider - take a breath......

[+scorpio_dark]

Not trying to troll BigCatMomma, just making an observation: You seem to be getting really dramatic over the whole thing. If it's stressing you that much, maybe find another hobby like working at an animal rescue.

 

I have to go to the expense of placing the cache and then find out I can't place the cache.

 

OR, e-mail the reviewer before all that time and expense.

 

I'm sorry to see you unhappy. I learned a few months back in the forums that it was more about the game and less about being right (although that can be fun to debate).

[+Semper Questio]

From where I sit, it sounds like you are very much promoting the Humane Society (even if a bit covertly), you want to have banned items in your cache, and you don't want to spend any more money or effort to conform to the guidelines.

 

I suggest you get an ammo can or a lock-n-lock, take out the treats and catnip, and put the cache outside (preferrably outside the fence if possible), then use the container you have for an indoor cache elsewhere that isn't promoting some personal agenda.

 

I understand you invested time, effort, and money into this container; but what do you plan to do when/if the cache gets muggled? Do you plan to replace it or archive it because of the cost and effort that would be involved in making a new one?

 

Edit to add afterthought:

 

Using previously placed caches as a precedent for whatever you want to do is not a valid posiiton. There are a ton of caches out there that are either grandfathered when guidelines are changed or are granted exceptions for reasons we cannot begin to know. Each cache must be evaluated on it's own merits.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Semper Questio

[+HockeyPuck]

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

I can find your geocache with a copy of the local yellow pages.

[+ecanderson]

I'll also point out that state parks and non profits with entry fees are exempt from the commercial guideline.

The problem as I see it is that by this particular reviewer's standard, it would be pretty well impossible to require someone to enter the building of a non-profit, entry fee or no, without being presumed to be promoting it.

 

If I were in this situation, I'd ask the reviewer for an example of a cache location within the building of any non-profit organization that would pass muster. The GC guidelines clearly anticipated this insofar as they had to deal with the problem of an entry fee.

 

I full well understand the overcautious-reviewer-syndrome. Ours refused to allow me to mention the designer of a city owned public golf course or even the name of the city owned public golf course for a cache I placed overlooking a tee box near one. The cache was nowhere near the clubhouse where you could interact with staff. It wasn't even on course property.

[+bittsen]

Simple solution.

 

List it on another geocaching site where the guidelines aren't so strict.

[+TexasGringo]

<I would feel slightly obligated to interact and would probably make some sort of donation there somewhere... someway.>

 

I agree, would feel kinda funny walking into a business to look for a cache and leave without at least buying something cheap....Pack of gum, magazine....etc.

[+tozainamboku]

No this cache shouldn't be published as it is now laid out. The reviewer, IMO, made a reasonable decision to apply the no solicitation rule to the cache. By going inside the lobby of the humane society it is reasonable to expect that the seeker might be engaged by an employee would might encourage them to look for a pet to adopt or to take some literature about the humane society that like will solicit donations. It used to be that the no solicitation rule was basically meant to keep advertising off the cache page and your write up now seems to meet that part of the requirement. However later changes were made regarding going inside businesses because it was seen that sometimes caches were being placed with the not so hidden agenda of bringing people to a business in the hopes of making a sale. This applies even to non-profit organization. The exception is made for fees at parks because geocaching is mostly about getting people outside and thats what the park is for. There are clearly many geocachers who prefer to look for caches in strip malls but TPTB have decided that having people go inside a business where they are likely to have to interact with employees is not a good thing. Now there are places where cache are inside of buildings. These are places where interaction with an employee is unlikely to happen or at least where the interaction is not going mean the cacher is put in a situation where they feel pressured to do something other than find the cache. For example, there are caches in public libraries because even if the librarian says "May I help you", it is unlikely you will be pressured to check out a book. Assuming the cache was place with permission the librarian may even help you find the cache . If you want to put the cache inside the humane society you will have to provide a fairly strong argument that the cacher will not need to interact with the employees or volunteers and will not feel pressured to go beyond finding a cache. It is unlikely however that a reviewer will approve it, your best hope here would be to appeal directly to Groundspeak (appeals@geocaching.com).

 

The argument that you need to be inside because you are putting pet treats in the cache is weak. Since most caches are placed outside the guidelines already indicate that food items in a cache are a bad idea. Moving a cache inside solely so you can put swag into it that normally wouldn't be allowed in a cache gives the impression you are just trying to see how far you can stretch the guidelines. A reviewer would point out that you can still put pet related items in your cache, just not food or treats.

 

The list of caches you found that might be in violation of the guidelines does not have an effect on whether or not your cache is approved. The guidelines say that first and foremost these is no precedent for placing caches. People bring out precedent because they have invested a lot in their idea for a cache. When they find out that their idea doesn't meet the guidelines they start looking for similar ideas and making claims that the reviewers are unfair or arbitrary, instead of working with their reviewer to find out what changes need to be made to allow their cache to be published.

[+ChileHead]

The Executive Director has embraced it largely as a mechanism to spread the word as to the location of the facility, as this is a new facility (has been open for less than 6 months) and quite distant from where the old one was.

 

Smells like a bit of an agenda to me, even if it isn't on your cache page.

 

And as others have pointed out, it doesn't appear there is actually any GPS use in your cache. The same could be said for parking lot micros, but ...

 

You could take this to an extreme: what if you placed a cache in a planned parenthood center, which I presume is non profit. They certainly have an agenda, whether you agree or don't agree with it. Is a cache applicable in the planned parenthood lobby, even if away from any employees or customers, with permission from the management? I would think not.

 

At the other end is a not for profit zoo. There are entrance fees, zoos do have agendas of some sort, but there are caches in many zoos. If placed in the lobby near the membership desk, it probably shouldn't be listed. If placed on a bench near your favorite animal, sure - why not.

 

We have a humane society near me that has quite a number of caches on the grounds. The difference is that in this case, the humane society maintains a bunch of nice trails behind the center, and you can drive right back there, park your car at the trailhead, and have a good time without even knowing the humane society is there.

[+Renegade Knight]

Although you now deny any agenda, your original post was titled, Using TBs for charitable causes, and you began your post with the following:

 

I would like to set up a series of TBs that would travel back "home" for a charitable cause. Specifically, I want them to travel to my local Humane Society shelter, and with each one that returns I would make a donation to the shelter (and then send the bug back out on its mission). I see this as a fun way to combine caching with my desire to support this charitable cause.

 

As was pointed out by many in that original thread, your cache very clearly has an agenda.

 

You followed webscouter's suggestion in the wording you used for your submission, but apparently it didn't mask your true intentions enough for the satisfaction of the reviewer. I would work with your reviewer to see what would be acceptable.

TB's can have agendas, causes and such.

[+Renegade Knight]

...So, as you can see, I don't feel that my cache has in any way pushed the envelope set forth in the guidelines and should be published. I feel that I have taken the advice I got from the forums earlier and have been very careful to ensure that the cache meets all of the guidelines. I am currently appealing the reviewer's decision. But what say you?

 

A cache in a building is fine as long as GPS usage meets the criteria this site sets.

Your reviwer has said the problem is the agenda. However they made an assumption that would ban all caches inside all buildings to reach the agenda conclusation.

 

Chiefly: A cache inside a building takes on the agenda of the buildings occupant. The humane society in this case.

 

The issue should be based on the cache itself. Does the listing itself have an agenda?

 

I have a cache inside the visitors center. Obviously the visitors center has as an agenda the promotion of tourism. The cache howevre is a TB hotel. It's agenda is TB's. The cache itself is fine because it could care less about the agenda of it's environment.

 

I'd cross check yours. Your TB's clearly have an agenda, and you need to work to keep that off your cache page.

[knowschad]

Although you now deny any agenda, your original post was titled, Using TBs for charitable causes, and you began your post with the following:

 

I would like to set up a series of TBs that would travel back "home" for a charitable cause. Specifically, I want them to travel to my local Humane Society shelter, and with each one that returns I would make a donation to the shelter (and then send the bug back out on its mission). I see this as a fun way to combine caching with my desire to support this charitable cause.

 

As was pointed out by many in that original thread, your cache very clearly has an agenda.

 

You followed webscouter's suggestion in the wording you used for your submission, but apparently it didn't mask your true intentions enough for the satisfaction of the reviewer. I would work with your reviewer to see what would be acceptable.

TB's can have agendas, causes and such.

 

Absolutely. Yes, I misread that part of her original post. She was specifically referring to her travel bugs there... even the post title that I quoted was referring to TBs.

 

But the very next paragraph is the one that I should have quoted:

 

I've already talked with the shelter director and the shelter is "go" on the idea of hosting a cache where the bugs can be dropped off. I would drop the bugs in caches while on my travels and wait for them to arrive at the shelter ( which is conveniently along my route of travel to and from work), stopping off to pick up any returned travelers and make the donation to the shelter. I'd probably leave a batch of swag at the shelter, also, for cachers bringing in TBs.

[Clan Riffster]

BigCatMomma, you asked for opinions, then you've argued with those whose opinions don't match yours.

When you found the caches that you tattled on, your logs were pretty positive, reflecting that you had fun.

I would think, if you really had an issue with those caches, you would've posted an SBA.

Your cache clearly has an agenda, whether you want to see it or not. The majority here have pointed this out to you.

Now you have a choice. You can fix the blatant problems, or you can throw a tantrum.

Judging by your last post, I think I know what choice you've made.

[PastorJon]

I think your idea is pretty cool... but I also think that the guidelines are being enforced correctly. I don't think the cache should be allowed inside the humane society, any more than I think a cache should be allowed inside my church.

 

At the risk of looking like I'm encouraging the skirting of guidelines... let me ask you this:

 

Do you actually need to have a cache at the shelter?

 

Can't you make the objective of the TB to arrive at the shelter... where the person who brings the TB picks up a dog-bone of their choice out of the box in the corner, and leaves the traveler?

 

I'm not sure that the box in the corner of the lobby with the travelers and the dogbones needs to have a GCXXXXX number in order for your cool TB idea to work.

Edited August 14, 2009 by PastorJon

[+Renegade Knight]

"I'll also point out that state parks and non profits with entry fees are exempt from the commercial guideline."

 

So why then is a nonprofit WITHOUT an entry fee not exempt?...

 

This isn't a direct comparison.

You pay a fee at the park or a non profit and end up outside you have a non issue.

If you don't pay a fee and end up outside you have a non issue.

 

Your issue isn't the fee or lack of fee. It's exactly what the reviewer said it was. A perception of agenda.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I've already talked with the shelter director and the shelter is "go" on the idea of hosting a cache where the bugs can be dropped off. I would drop the bugs in caches while on my travels and wait for them to arrive at the shelter ( which is conveniently along my route of travel to and from work), stopping off to pick up any returned travelers and make the donation to the shelter. I'd probably leave a batch of swag at the shelter, also, for cachers bringing in TBs....

 

As long as she doesn't say that in the cache listing itself she should be good. I'm not going to hold a personal agenda that's kept to herelf or explained where it's allowed on the TB pages against her.

[+BigCatMomma]

Well, first of all let me say that the original idea of the cache has been scrapped. And how I agree with so many of you that the idea is the sport. So the whole thing has been modified greatly.

 

The cache is now outside. It contains nothing other than a logbook and pen for those who want to claim the find. There is no swag. The sport is finding the cache, not getting something from it. It's large enough to contain my TBs, but pet-related swag tends to be smelly and attract animals, so the swag has been totally eliminated. Other sorts of swag would not be appropriate to the theme of my cache.

 

Someone suggested that perhaps I should take up something other than geocaching, and I'd like to respond to that person's comments. I took a four-hour hiatus to cool down after those remarks, but still feel they need responding to. As a relatively new cacher (note I've only been a member since 4 July), I found your remarks to be, shall we say, contrary to the whole idea of a "sport" to begin with. It smacks of cronyism: this is our group, you stay out. It was immature, and it certainly doesn't make me want to associate with you, nor with your group if indeed that is the group's feeling. (I don't get that impression, but who knows? I could be wrong.) In that regard you are very right: perhaps I should take up something other than geocaching, and indeed I am part of another sport that actively promotes itself and does everything it can to make newcomers feel welcome and even help them improve in their participation in the sport. I have never had that sense as someone new to geocaching. Geocaching as a sport is NOT my first love as a recreational activity, nor do I suspect it will take over that position. Regardless, I don't think telling newcomers to simply buzz off is a way for any group to promote itself. Unless, of course, you want to watch your sport die off as each of you does so.

 

I like geocaching just as I liked orienteering back when I did that, but do have to admit that after 80+ finds it's getting a bit predictable. It's always under a pile of rocks, or some SOB thinking they're being cute will make you crawl under a barbed wire fence after it. And to the posts I have made, yes - I had fun. But I also believe that ONE standard should apply to ALL caches. I do not see why others could not have had fun with my original cache - perhaps more fun than they will have with the modified cache. If it is soliciting for me to locate a cache inside the building of a not-for-profit organization where it is nowhere near the staff simply because that facility has a mission then it is certainly soliciting to require the cacher to go inside and sign the visitor's log that sits RIGHT NEXT TO the donation box. (I was also actively solicited by one of the staff when she found out I was geocaching although I chose to ignore it, but I'll bet others have caved to it.)

 

And as for looking up the address in the Yellow Pages, you can do that for any of the Visitor's Centers where you have to go to the desk and ask for the cache as well. You can do it for Border Patrol and similar virtuals. Yes, yes, yes - that doesn't set a precedent for my cache. But again, ONE standard should apply to ALL caches. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of which agendas the reviewers subjectively decide they can allow (like contributing to the support of a private museum) versus the ones they aren't as personally inclined to support (like housing pets awaiting adoption). And from what I can see, there is a great deal of subjectivity being applied to which caches may be allowed and which are not. And I suspect there may even be a little cronyism involved as well.

 

I would have wished that all of you would have looked at THE CACHE LISTING and ONLY THE CACHE LISTING along with the reviewer's remarks in making your replies. You got way, far away from that, especially in bringing up my past forum posts. I felt I was very careful with THE CACHE LISTING to eliminate all sense of solicitation, and in fact that was never ever my intent if you will look back at those previous forum posts where I discussed this. This was just a mechanism by which I could knit together two things I do.

 

And for the person who suggested I could find another way to support the shelter, I did. I took all the contents of the original cache - all the treats, toys, collars, little cans of pet food, etc - and told them to put them at the counter for anyone who has just adopted a pet to take. And I'll keep that well-supplied for them. It is, after all, more in keeping with my desire to see the shelter supported to encourage those who will be actually going in to adopt a pet than it is to reward people who are just seeking out a cache (and thus people whose presence would have been unrelated to the shelter's activities).

 

So I thank you for all of the discussion as it has allowed me to make those changes necessary to place the cache as a receptacle for my TBs without transgressing from the spirit of geocaching as you have explained it to me as well as see that my previous expenditures for the original cache did not go to waste but will indeed go to supporting what I consider to be a worthy cause (albeit without any links to geocaching).

 

I'd like to also add, in editorial mode and as an afterthought, that I personally don't see a problem with promoting an agenda as long as the agenda is clearly stated in the cache listing. That gives the cacher the option right up front when deciding on which caches to seek of simply not going to that cache, a decision I have made myself with regard to caches located on Arizona Public Lands ($50 is too much to ask an occasional visitor from out-of-state to pay simply for the privilege of seeking out an occasional geocache). Park fees are also stated clearly in the caches for those located in parks.

 

You have to admit that there is a very fine line between caches that lie within the envelope and those that don't, and the location of that line seems to vary from reviewer to reviewer. Is not the gift shop of a state park a commercial enterprise? Then why is it allowable for a cache to be located inside the gift shop under the counter where one must ask the clerk for it but not allowable for it to be located inside a business? Why would a cacher feel less compelled to make a purchase in the park's gift shop than in a business? Plus, I will wager a BIG wager that as a result of the subjective nature of reviewer's decisions there are LOTS of caches out there with BIG agendas that are approved simply because the cache owner has not been up front and honest about their cache. The example I cited of the cache that's located near a restaurant is prime, and I've encountered many local caches that are located just outside businesses or clubs. I, of course, can't prove it, but it sure looks like these caches are designed to advertise the business or club. Some even explicitly state that they are. So I feel that largely I ran into the resistance I did simply because I was up front and honest about the circumstances of my cache.

 

You can ask yourselves what I may have learned from this.

Edited August 14, 2009 by BigCatMomma

[knowschad]

Well, first of all let me say that the original idea of the cache has been scrapped. And how I agree with so many of you that the idea is the sport. So the whole thing has been modified greatly.

 

The cache is now outside. It contains nothing other than a logbook and pen for those who want to claim the find. There is no swag. The sport is finding the cache, not getting something from it. It's large enough to contain my TBs, but pet-related swag tends to be smelly and attract animals, so the swag has been totally eliminated. Other sorts of swag would not be appropriate to the theme of my cache.

 

... stuff removed for brevity

 

 

So I thank you for all of the discussion as it has allowed me to make those changes necessary to place the cache as a receptacle for my TBs without transgressing from the spirit of geocaching as you have explained it to me as well as see that my previous expenditures for the original cache did not go to waste but will indeed go to supporting what I consider to be a worthy cause (albeit without any links to geocaching).

 

Well done! I hope you and the finders have a lot of fun with your cache.

 

As for the predictability of your local caches, perhaps you can do something about that by placing some unpredictable ones. Many caches are predictable, for sure, by they sure don't need to be!!

 

BTW, I appreciate that you were trying to place an unpredictable cache with the one this post has been about. Please don't let this stop you from continuing to trying to come up with new ideas!

Edited August 14, 2009 by knowschad

[+mrbort]

I've seen other humane society-type caches (one at a humane society, the other at a 4-H) and have really enjoyed them. It's great that you moved the cache outside but don't get discouraged at having a theme to the cache. It doesn't have to be "humane society is cool" but instead "pets are great friends" ... something like that. You don't have to ditch the idea of swag altogether; there is plenty of great swag that dogs and cats could love (toys, leashes, flexible water bowls, tag tokens for a tag making machine, etc). Good luck with your cache!!

[+Knight2000]

I like cats! They taste like chicken.

 

I think you can ask for the reviewer to submit it to other reviewers for a second opinion. If you still are unhappy with the results forget about it. You can't fight the man.

[+BigCatMomma]

It's great that you moved the cache outside but don't get discouraged at having a theme to the cache. It doesn't have to be "humane society is cool" but instead "pets are great friends" ... something like that.

 

It never did have the theme of "humane society is cool." It had the theme of "reward your pet." Now it has the theme "reward your new pet" and it's not a geocache anymore. The modified cache does, however, still have the original function: a receptacle for return of my TBs. It just doesn't add the "reward your pet" portion. Can't. That function required me to put out a 2 gallon container, and I just can't do that in this urban environment (El Paso is the 23rd largest city in the US with 700,000 people) without serious risk of it getting muggled on a regular basis. I'm not even sure the modified cache won't get muggled.

[+bittsen]

I've seen other humane society-type caches (one at a humane society, the other at a 4-H) and have really enjoyed them. It's great that you moved the cache outside but don't get discouraged at having a theme to the cache. It doesn't have to be "humane society is cool" but instead "pets are great friends" ... something like that. You don't have to ditch the idea of swag altogether; there is plenty of great swag that dogs and cats could love (toys, leashes, flexible water bowls, tag tokens for a tag making machine, etc). Good luck with your cache!!

 

I once found a cache that had doggie and kitty treats in it. It was at a vetrinarians office, outside. It was put up on a shelf and in an ammo can.

 

It's funny that I never thought of it as having an agenda. I just thought that a vetrinarian owned a cache and wanted to share it.

 

I would think that is the exact same thing I would feel with going to get a cache in the Humane Society lobby.

 

Oh well. I guess some people are paranoid and thing everything has an "agenda".

 

Edit: No, I am not implying mrbort is part of the "some people" I am referring to.

Edited August 14, 2009 by bittsen

[knowschad]

 

Oh well. I guess some people are paranoid and thing everything has an "agenda".

 

Edit: No, I am not implying mrbort is part of the "some people" I am referring to.

 

You were instead perhaps referring to her reviewer?

[+mrbort]

It's great that you moved the cache outside but don't get discouraged at having a theme to the cache. It doesn't have to be "humane society is cool" but instead "pets are great friends" ... something like that.

 

It never did have the theme of "humane society is cool." It had the theme of "reward your pet." Now it has the theme "reward your new pet" and it's not a geocache anymore. The modified cache does, however, still have the original function: a receptacle for return of my TBs. It just doesn't add the "reward your pet" portion. Can't. That function required me to put out a 2 gallon container, and I just can't do that in this urban environment (El Paso is the 23rd largest city in the US with 700,000 people) without serious risk of it getting muggled on a regular basis. I'm not even sure the modified cache won't get muggled.

 

I apologize for misrepresenting the theme. I should have retained what I had read better. Again though your cache could still have the reward your pet theme and include some language about not including smelly/consumables as swag and still keep the swag pet themed Again apologies about the mischaracterization of your theme; I was just trying to be positive and encouraging.

[+bittsen]

 

Oh well. I guess some people are paranoid and thing everything has an "agenda".

 

Edit: No, I am not implying mrbort is part of the "some people" I am referring to.

 

You were instead perhaps referring to her reviewer?

 

It would be foolish to confirm any suspicion of that.

[+BlueMoth]

To the OP, I read your original posting and for what its worth here are my thoughts about your cache. I think your reviewer is so out of line. I have found: a cache that was in the back garden of a pub (come in and have a drink after you find the cache), a cache that was on the counter of a toy store (come in an buy a toy), a cache in Las Vegas in the window of a drive up wedding chapel, placed there with the blessing of the Nevada tourism commission (or something to that effect) which literally screamed (come to Vegas, get married and gamble in our casinos). All of these caches have agendas. However, I don't feel "pushed" to do any of these things. I chose to seek thes caches out, if I didn't like them, so what? i'll just move on to the net one. Lord help us if we are so pc now to be afraid we might offend someone with our agenda at the Humane Society. I think reviewers need to lighten up a bit when they whine "but its the rules", and then interpret them at whim. I hate that kind of mentality, I have always hated it, so you get my sympathy vote on this one.

 

I thought it was neat that you would have left treats for the kitty and dog owners to take with them. The cache being placed where it was would not have necessitated any interaction between staff and cachers. Geeze, if you don't like Humane societies, don't go to the cache.

 

My only quibble, was that it was a bug return for what seems to be your own personal set of TB's. Why was that? Couldn't anyone drop off any TB? I could see encouraging TB's that have a critter theme, but why did you say it was a return for your bugs only?

 

Anyway, as to scrapping your original idea, I would fight to have it in the lobby. If you are up for the fight that is. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[GOF and Bacall]

Take another four hours.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I agree with the reviewer. You asked for opinions, and most have agreed with the reviewer.

[jholly]

Late to the party as usual. I have found two caches in buildings. One was the town hall of a small (and I mean small) town. Had to kill an hour while the clerk went to lunch. I had to interact with the clerk to get the ammo box and we had a very nice chat. About the only thing on the cache page was the hours and the fact it was place by a middle school team. Nothing about what the building was, and you had to follow the arrow to even figure out it was a building and which building. pretty agenda free. The other was in the Chamber of Commerce of a middling sized town. Again the hours where mentioned and that it is a high muggle area, if I recall correctly the CC shared offices with the visitors center. Again pretty agenda free. The hours of operation and information on dropping and picking up TB's. No mention of what was in the building and you had to follow the arrow to find it. Again I had a nice chat with the woman behind the desk. Both were TB hotels. A third one I did was outside another Chamber of Commerce building it was mailbox of all things. It did mention what the building was, again this was a TB hotel. This one if I recall correctly required a combination to a lock to open it. The cache page did say if you forgot the combo the folks inside would help. Outside of mentioning what the building was, no agenda.

 

I personally I think that if you work with your reviewer a cache inside the building can be done. Having it inside a kitty condo sounds neat. If the person inside knows what is going on I think most interaction will be initiated by the cacher. I can't see this as a bad thing. It sounds like a cache I would enjoy doing. You just need to beat anything about the Humane Society out of the page. Stating it is placed with the owners permission is different than saying it is placed with the Executive Director of the Humane Society's permission, but I would include this in a reviewer note with the telephone number. If you just list the co-ordinates, mention it is a bug hotel and the hours of operation it could possibly fly. If still no you can appeal, (is it appeal@geocaching.com or contact@geocacing.com, I forget).

 

Jim

[+scorpio_dark]

EDIT: Parts of the following exerpts have been bolded and such to help them standout.

 

 

Here is the reviewer's reasoning for archiving the cache:

 

"I'm sorry, but unless you want to relocate this outside the building, I'm afraid I can't publish this. The placement of this inside the lobby can only be seen as a way to promote the Humane Society. As noted in the guidelines, "caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda." While you say "Visitors to the cache do not need to involve the staff in their visit", that's most likely going to happen whether or not the cachers wants it. "

 

Looks like the reviewer sees it being in the building as the promotion of the humane society.

 

I find it strange to worry about staff becoming involved because I think all that a staff member will say is: "May I help you." And a cacher will have the opportunity to tell them about geocaching. OR did I mistakenly type in "hermit-cachers.com"

 

And there is a direct point that I support noobs. So some for and some against and you throw this out:

 

I guess from what I'm seeing here I should just ditch this cache entirely.

 

But I'm angry.

<CLIP>

 

I have to go to the expense of placing the cache and then find out I can't place the cache.

 

I do all this after I have ASKED in the forums how to go about doing it and taken that advice.

 

I am sorry I bought a premium membership. I wish I could get my money back. I am sorry I bought TBs from geocaching.com and wish I could get THAT money back. And right now I don't regard caching as a fun activity. In fact, I am seriously considering removing the three other caches I've placed and having them archived because I don't feel like bothering with them anymore.

 

Not trying to troll BigCatMomma, just making an observation: You seem to be getting really dramatic over the whole thing. If it's stressing you that much, maybe find another hobby like working at an animal rescue.

 

I have to go to the expense of placing the cache and then find out I can't place the cache.

 

OR, e-mail the reviewer before all that time and expense.

 

I'm sorry to see you unhappy. I learned a few months back in the forums that it was more about the game and less about being right (although that can be fun to debate).

 

I think it speaks for itself, but okay: The first line here screams PRETTY PLEASE; TAKE THIS AS CONSTRUCTIVE AND NOT THE WAY YOU GO ON TO TAKE IT.

 

Well, first of all let me say that the original idea of the cache has been scrapped. And how I agree with so many of you that the idea is the sport. So the whole thing has been modified greatly.

 

<CLIP>

 

Someone suggested that perhaps I should take up something other than geocaching, and I'd like to respond to that person's comments. I took a four-hour hiatus to cool down after those remarks, but still feel they need responding to. As a relatively new cacher (note I've only been a member since 4 July), I found your remarks to be, shall we say, contrary to the whole idea of a "sport" to begin with. It smacks of cronyism: this is our group, you stay out. It was immature, and it certainly doesn't make me want to associate with you, nor with your group if indeed that is the group's feeling. (I don't get that impression, but who knows? I could be wrong.) In that regard you are very right: perhaps I should take up something other than geocaching, and indeed I am part of another sport that actively promotes itself and does everything it can to make newcomers feel welcome and even help them improve in their participation in the sport. I have never had that sense as someone new to geocaching. Geocaching as a sport is NOT my first love as a recreational activity, nor do I suspect it will take over that position. Regardless, I don't think telling newcomers to simply buzz off is a way for any group to promote itself. Unless, of course, you want to watch your sport die off as each of you does so.

 

<CLIP>

 

Take another four hours.

 

SO it really seems that your . . . .stuff was directed at me. I don't usually respond to that . . . . stuff but you use the newcomer defense which I fully support.

 

When a little kid says I'm gonna take my ball and go home, they should leave the field or not say it at all. After seeing your continuance and your direct flaming of the response, it stinks as a cheap move for sympathy.

 

I truly don't want to see people unhappy playing this game/sport/hobby which you said you were and indicated that you wanted to take your ball and go home. I have friends who do different things than I do that make them individually more happy, but we can still walk our dogs together and have a beer on the weekends maybe . . . . And looks like you missed that there was another option suggested in the same post about talking to your reviewer to augment your fun. That meant instead of leaving.

 

BTW, it may seem hairy at times, but please use to quote tool when targeting individuals in your posts. It either let's us know who one is reverse-trolling or not as the case may be. Also watch the use of uncommon big words for us cronyistic fools who only befriend and promote immature college dropouts!!! (Please take that as a joke. Whether your original choice of words were meant as an insult or not, I smiled.)

 

So, I guess among your choices are: 1)take the semi-emotional responses here and boil some more, 2) Create a big application process for cachers to hunt your caches so that you can directly filter them as you have your forum responders or 3)retract your statements and invite all geocachers to enjoy your caches. Of course you seem rather creative and pretty smart so I'm sure you'll find your own way. Enjoy the sport/game/hobby and I'm taking my ball home for now to play with someone else. Still love the cache (EDIT: TravelBug) idea BTW. Animals rock and should be supported

 

You can ask yourselves what I may have learned from this.

 

Nope. You told me allllll about it

Edited August 15, 2009 by scorpio_dark

[Clan Riffster]

I am part of another sport that actively promotes itself and does everything it can to make newcomers feel welcome

Kewl! Does this include newcomers who jump in with both feet, violating the rules, and pout when called on it?

The simple fact is, you didn't get things your way, so you threw a coniption fit.

"The reviewer is wrong!"

"All these others guys are breaking the rules!"

"I think I'll just quit!"

 

If your other activity would embrace someone with such a poor attitude, then I gotta give 'em props for patience.

 

I'm glad to see you decided to take 5, and rethink your position.

I like your cache idea, and location, and I hope it does well.

It reminds me of one of my caching t-shirts:

"Every time you hide a film can, God kills a kitten"

[+briansnat]

"Every time you hide a film can, God kills a kitten"

 

Is that true?

[+gof1]

Late to the party as usual. I have found two caches in buildings. One was the town hall of a small (and I mean small) town. Had to kill an hour while the clerk went to lunch. I had to interact with the clerk to get the ammo box and we had a very nice chat. About the only thing on the cache page was the hours and the fact it was place by a middle school team. Nothing about what the building was, and you had to follow the arrow to even figure out it was a building and which building. pretty agenda free. The other was in the Chamber of Commerce of a middling sized town. Again the hours where mentioned and that it is a high muggle area, if I recall correctly the CC shared offices with the visitors center. Again pretty agenda free. The hours of operation and information on dropping and picking up TB's. No mention of what was in the building and you had to follow the arrow to find it. Again I had a nice chat with the woman behind the desk. Both were TB hotels. A third one I did was outside another Chamber of Commerce building it was mailbox of all things. It did mention what the building was, again this was a TB hotel. This one if I recall correctly required a combination to a lock to open it. The cache page did say if you forgot the combo the folks inside would help. Outside of mentioning what the building was, no agenda.

 

I personally I think that if you work with your reviewer a cache inside the building can be done. Having it inside a kitty condo sounds neat. If the person inside knows what is going on I think most interaction will be initiated by the cacher. I can't see this as a bad thing. It sounds like a cache I would enjoy doing. You just need to beat anything about the Humane Society out of the page. Stating it is placed with the owners permission is different than saying it is placed with the Executive Director of the Humane Society's permission, but I would include this in a reviewer note with the telephone number. If you just list the co-ordinates, mention it is a bug hotel and the hours of operation it could possibly fly. If still no you can appeal, (is it appeal@geocaching.com or contact@geocacing.com, I forget).

 

Jim

 

There is one big difference other than the cache page. The town and the Chamber of Commerce are unlikely to expect donations. The same can't be said for the Humane society.

[+gof1]

"Every time you hide a film can, God kills a kitten"

 

Awesome! I love it and I'm gonna steal it. (call a cop)

[+BigCatMomma]

 

My only quibble, was that it was a bug return for what seems to be your own personal set of TB's. Why was that? Couldn't anyone drop off any TB? I could see encouraging TB's that have a critter theme, but why did you say it was a return for your bugs only?

 

 

Actually, I didn't say it was for the return of my bugs only. I said it was the final destination for my TBs. But I can see how that might get stretched to the notion that it's for my TBs only.

 

It probably wouldn't be a bad cache to act as a travel bug hotel - and that might actually fit the theme nicely. The Humane Society takes in pets and gets them on their way into new homes.... My cache takes in TBs and gets them on their way to new homes. You've given me a great idea! This cache is also not far off a major north/south highway and near a military base as well, so as they say: location, location, location.

 

The modified cache has been published, but I'll email my reviewer and see if s/he will allow this additional modification.

[+ecanderson]

There is one big difference other than the cache page. The town and the Chamber of Commerce are unlikely to expect donations. The same can't be said for the Humane society.

Brings me back to a question I asked earlier. gc has already made assumptions about placement at non-profits to the extent that they have waived the "fee" restriction. So I pay a fee to get into a non-profit's facility. Wouldn't gc also anticipate that the vast majority of non-profit operations look forward to donations?

 

I'm still wondering if the reviewer can provide examples of non-profit facilities where a fee is charged to enter that would be permissible territory for a cache. If not the local Humane Society, what?