Request for Coordinates

[+Chrysalides]

With all due respect. If you want to start a thread to discuss your perceptions of my personal qualities, there is a forum called "off-topic".

Says the person who goes around urging others not to pretend to be mods or admins.

[+tozainamboku]

From what I've seen, bittsen responds to any post that deals with puzzle caches, whether they be asking for advice, relating an experience, or whatever, by putting down puzzle caches, the people who make them, the people who like them, and the people who defend them. Her posts are negative, derisive, and intended to put down puzzles.

 

Why would this sort of post NOT elicit a negative response?! I've seen lots of people respond to these posts very patiently, explaining the same thing over and over, but it does no good.

 

bittsen is expressing an opinion that is held by quite a few geocachers. Geocaching is about going out and finding geocaches, preferably using GPS as an integral part of the hunt. A puzzle has little to do with geocaching. This is no different than the people who said that virtual caches were not geocaching, or locationless caches, or having to do an ALR in order to log a find. I suppose it gets a negative response because these other caches were banned (or in the case of virtuals were grandfathered); perhaps some people are worried that puzzle cache may be next

 

The best way to make sure that puzzles don't get banned would be to follow bittsen's advice on dealing with people who ask for help on a puzzle. Cache owners who respond "Perhaps some caches aren't meant for you to find" are likely going to cause a lot of people to feel perhaps puzzles are being hidden just to spoil their fun. Cache owners who give helpful hints are more likely to be appreciated. If someone still can't get it and wants the coordinates so they can log the find, I just don't see the harm in a cache owner giving out coordinates. Attacking bittsen for saying that is what he/she would do is really going overboard. Even if this was meant a recommendation for other cache owners, I can see reasons for doing so.

 

Some people feel that giving the answers to the puzzle is unfair to those that actually solved the puzzle. I can't understand how this can be. The people who solve puzzle solve puzzle because they enjoy doing it, not in order to get the smiley. If that were the case you'd see a lot more people claim smileys for solving puzzle and then not finding the cache.

 

I personally don't care if a cache owner wants to allow people to log finds for solving puzzles and not finding the cache, but its not something I would do. There have been puzzles I solved and never found the cache and they aren't counted as find. I'm also of the opinion that someone didn't solve the puzzle but got the coordinates some other way (e.g. went with a person who solved the puzzle to find the cache, found the cache by accident when looking to place a cache in the area, etc) should be allowed to log a find if they signed the cache log. The puzzle is there as an extra for those who like puzzles. It is not there to prevent someone from finding the cache.

[+mountainman38]

bittsen is expressing an opinion that is held by quite a few geocachers. Geocaching is about going out and finding geocaches, preferably using GPS as an integral part of the hunt. A puzzle has little to do with geocaching.

 

I disagree. A puzzle has just as much to do with my geocaching as a traditional or multi. Because there are some who don't care for them certainly doesn't mean they should be done away with and ruin the fun for many others.

 

Geocaching is not a federally regulated pass time, where strict laws are enforced by the cache police. It's an idea implemented in a number of ways, principally by Groundspeak, who has general rules laid out for people who want to use Groundspeak's services to follow.

 

These rules do change over time, as the need arises. Just because things were done a certain way ten years ago really has no bearing on how things are done now, or will be in the future. We are not locked into only one way to geocache.

 

The best way to make sure that puzzles don't get banned would be to follow bittsen's advice on dealing with people who ask for help on a puzzle. Cache owners who respond "Perhaps some caches aren't meant for you to find" are likely going to cause a lot of people to feel perhaps puzzles are being hidden just to spoil their fun.

 

Giving out the solution to a puzzle defeats the purpose of a puzzle. If a cacher is so arrogant as to think that they have some innate "right" to find every cache, they've got some serious entitlement issues. If not solving a puzzle is going to make a frustrated cacher go on a rampage and sack Groundspeak headquarters, they need to seek a mental health professional, not a puzzle cache.

 

Cache owners who give helpful hints are more likely to be appreciated.

 

I agree. If someone gets totally frustrated trying to solve a puzzle, it's nice if the CO will give them some nudges. There are some CO's who won't, however, and that's their right. If someone can't handle this, they need to grow up.

 

If someone still can't get it and wants the coordinates so they can log the find, I just don't see the harm in a cache owner giving out coordinates.

 

I do.

 

Attacking bittsen for saying that is what he/she would do is really going overboard.

 

I hope you're not referring to my posts here. I certainly didn't "attack bittsen" for this. I think bittsen can take care of him/herself pretty well, anyway.

 

Some people feel that giving the answers to the puzzle is unfair to those that actually solved the puzzle. I can't understand how this can be. The people who solve puzzle solve puzzle because they enjoy doing it, not in order to get the smiley. If that were the case you'd see a lot more people claim smileys for solving puzzle and then not finding the cache.

 

You can't understand how this could be? Maybe because I worked really hard to solve a puzzle, and feel proud that I was able to get the solution. I LIKE those smilies -- they mean I earned them. Someone piggy-backs on another solver to claim the prize, and suddenly my accomplishment isn't so special. It's sort of like hiking to the top of Mt. Washington (a very grueling endeavor), then talking to someone later who blithely says "Oh yeah, I was up there a couple of times". The other person drove to the top, but he still claims the summit.

 

...The puzzle is there as an extra for those who like puzzles. It is not there to prevent someone from finding the cache.

 

This recurring sentiment just baffles me. What is it about a cache that is so sacred, that all geocachers everywhere should have an inalienable right to sign their logs, no matter what?

 

A puzzle cache is placed so that someone can solve a puzzle, then find the cache. I've solved a number of puzzles in different parts of the country which I haven't been to. While solving them is fun, the ones I can actually get to and log my find are much more rewarding. If I accidentally found the final of a puzzle cache, I would not sign it.

[+tozainamboku]

If someone still can't get it and wants the coordinates so they can log the find, I just don't see the harm in a cache owner giving out coordinates.

 

I do.

Please explain. A cache owner ought to be able to determine how hard their own cache should be. If a cache owner were to put the answer in an encrypted hint would you find that harmful? If the cache owner can give hints when someone asks, could they sit with the person and show them step by step how to work the puzzle? Making up rules that say that once you posted a puzzle cache the cache owner cannot decide to add a hint or to provide any help to someone who asks that want seems absurd.

 

Some people feel that giving the answers to the puzzle is unfair to those that actually solved the puzzle. I can't understand how this can be. The people who solve puzzle solve puzzle because they enjoy doing it, not in order to get the smiley. If that were the case you'd see a lot more people claim smileys for solving puzzle and then not finding the cache.

 

You can't understand how this could be? Maybe because I worked really hard to solve a puzzle, and feel proud that I was able to get the solution. I LIKE those smilies -- they mean I earned them. Someone piggy-backs on another solver to claim the prize, and suddenly my accomplishment isn't so special. It's sort of like hiking to the top of Mt. Washington (a very grueling endeavor), then talking to someone later who blithely says "Oh yeah, I was up there a couple of times". The other person drove to the top, but he still claims the summit.

This recurring sentiment just baffles me. The person who solved the puzzle knows they solved the puzzle. If they need to shout it out to the world they could even post in their log "I solved the puzzle". If someone needs the accomplishment of getting a geocaching find smiley to mean they solved the puzzle, they are doing puzzle for the wrong reason. I like puzzles because they are fun to solve. I hide puzzle caches because I think there are people who have fun solving them. But I know that some people who have logged some of my puzzle caches didn't solve the puzzle. They either went to find the cache with someone who did solve the puzzle or, in one case, they found the cache after placing one that got turned down for being to close. When they went back to move their cache, they looked in a little larger area around where they had placed theirs, and found my cache. I let the finds stand because they found the cache.

 

...The puzzle is there as an extra for those who like puzzles. It is not there to prevent someone from finding the cache.

 

This recurring sentiment just baffles me. What is it about a cache that is so sacred, that all geocachers everywhere should have an inalienable right to sign their logs, no matter what?

 

A puzzle cache is placed so that someone can solve a puzzle, then find the cache. I've solved a number of puzzles in different parts of the country which I haven't been to. While solving them is fun, the ones I can actually get to and log my find are much more rewarding. If I accidentally found the final of a puzzle cache, I would not sign it.

I've explain my reason for having puzzle caches. Others may place caches because they want to prevent people from finding their cache. Like bittsen I never say that a cache owner has to give out the answer to a puzzle cache. When I get a question about one of my puzzles, I give a hint. But usually it is so cryptic that people stop asking. If they came back and asked again I would give a better hint. And if they were still having trouble I may explain how to solve the puzzle. I would hope that they may understand how to do puzzles like this in the future and will have fun doing them.

 

I have great respect for the people who solved the puzzle without asking me. But if they were to complain that I was cheapening their find by helping someone else, I'd likely tell them that if they don't like it they can delete their find. The reward for finding a cache is the fun you had finding it, and in solving the puzzle if you enjoy that. The reward for finding a geocache is not the smiley. Those that claim it is have something to learn about geocaching. (I'm beginning to understand why Coyote Red says he wants to designate his caches as not counting in the find count).

Edited February 23, 2010 by tozainamboku

[+thedeadpirate]

I'm a bit confused. I don't know of many puzzle owners that mind giving hints or other help to people trying to solve their puzzle.

 

I thought this thread orginiated from a request that the OP just outright hand over the coords just because the person requesting it doesn't know how to work puzzles.

 

I see a huge difference between helping someone who is trying and just handing over the coords to someone who is not.

 

While the one is making an attempt, the other seems to have a sense of entitlement.

 

And on top of that, they were asking for the coords within a couple of days of publishing the cache. Even if I felt like I wanted to just give out the coords, I don't think I would do it so close to the publish date.

 

My goodness, if you want the world handed to you on a silver platter, at the very least show a bit of patience.

[+fizzymagic]

When I want to geocache, I want to load a PQ full of caches and leave the house. That IS why I pay $30 per year. So I can get the location to geocaches through the easiest method possible. I'm not stupid, I'm efficient. Why go through all the steps to solve a puzzle for a single cache when there are so many that don't require the puzzle?

 

Great job! You have perfectly described the kind of person that I don't want to find my caches, and why I make so many puzzle caches.

 

I want my caches to be found by those who will appreciate them and the effort that went into making them, rather than the kind that grab as many caches as they can in the shortest possible time.

 

Efficient cachers leave cut-n-paste logs or TNLNSL logs, because they don't want to waste time logging their finds.

 

Efficient cachers often don't replace the cache the way it was hidden, because that requires too much effort.

 

Efficient cachers don't like multis, because they take too much time per smiley.

 

Efficient cachers tend to skip my caches.

 

Hooray.

[+bittsen]

When I want to geocache, I want to load a PQ full of caches and leave the house. That IS why I pay $30 per year. So I can get the location to geocaches through the easiest method possible. I'm not stupid, I'm efficient. Why go through all the steps to solve a puzzle for a single cache when there are so many that don't require the puzzle?

 

Great job! You have perfectly described the kind of person that I don't want to find my caches, and why I make so many puzzle caches.

 

I want my caches to be found by those who will appreciate them and the effort that went into making them, rather than the kind that grab as many caches as they can in the shortest possible time.

 

Efficient cachers leave cut-n-paste logs or TNLNSL logs, because they don't want to waste time logging their finds.

 

Efficient cachers often don't replace the cache the way it was hidden, because that requires too much effort.

 

Efficient cachers don't like multis, because they take too much time per smiley.

 

Efficient cachers tend to skip my caches.

 

Hooray.

 

Thank you for making my point and admitting that your caches are exclusive to certain people who YOU want to find them, not everyone.

[+thedeadpirate]

When I want to geocache, I want to load a PQ full of caches and leave the house. That IS why I pay $30 per year. So I can get the location to geocaches through the easiest method possible. I'm not stupid, I'm efficient. Why go through all the steps to solve a puzzle for a single cache when there are so many that don't require the puzzle?

 

Great job! You have perfectly described the kind of person that I don't want to find my caches, and why I make so many puzzle caches.

 

I want my caches to be found by those who will appreciate them and the effort that went into making them, rather than the kind that grab as many caches as they can in the shortest possible time.

 

Efficient cachers leave cut-n-paste logs or TNLNSL logs, because they don't want to waste time logging their finds.

 

Efficient cachers often don't replace the cache the way it was hidden, because that requires too much effort.

 

Efficient cachers don't like multis, because they take too much time per smiley.

 

Efficient cachers tend to skip my caches.

 

Hooray.

 

And I always thought it was because you were a mentally challenging individual. As long as I have been around you always seemed like someone who just had a passion for exercising the old noggin.

 

I'm an efficient cacher. When I am out traveling, I am very particular with my PQs. Not because I am a high numbers cacher, but because I don't generally have time to waste while on the road. And I just so happen to be very appreciative when I come across a nice cache.

 

Darned if that tirade didn't just help push me ever so slightly over the Bittsen's way of thinking.

 

Now you have me wondering if there are people out there placing caches because they don't want cripples finding their caches. Guess that's why I have such a hard time finding handicap accessible caches.

 

I wonder if there really is something to people hiding PMO caches because they really do thumb their noses at people who can't afford a premium membership.

 

Dang it all, Toz and Bittsen, make room for me. I believe I just might have to set up camp over on y'all's side.

[Clan Riffster]

Why should someone go to the time and effort to come up with a well-crafted puzzle cache, that they make so cachers can enjoy solving it, then be expected to just give the answers out to anyone who asks?

No cache owner should be expected to give anything away regarding their hides. I give away nudges, hints, spoilers and/or outright coords because I want folks to find my caches in the manner that suits them best, and maximizes their enjoyment, not because I think anyone is entitled to that information. The rules/mores I apply to my own behavior seldom get applied to what I think others should do. On those occasions when I grovel for a puzzle hint, if the cache owner told me "No", I wouldn't be angry with them, as I feel that is their prerogative.

 

From what I've read, Bittsen's posts in this thread were kinda on par with my own thoughts. He would give away nudges, hints, spoilers and/or coords if asked, but doesn't suggest this as a course of action.

 

For the record, I am one of those guys that actually enjoys puzzles, of all difficulty levels. I enjoy the warming of the grey matter. I actually click on people's profiles all the time, just so I can play with their puzzles. However, (being a Scot who is dumber than a bag of hammers), I'm not very good at them. (sigh...)

 

Maybe because I worked really hard to solve a puzzle, and feel proud that I was able to get the solution.

You certainly have a right to feel this way, but it's not an outlook I'm likely to understand. For instance, I once spent 15 hours (over a few trips), hunting for an urban micro. Finding it gave me a tremendous amount of satisfaction, as it had stumped several other people. I really felt good about that one. If you had shown up when I finally extracted that lil bugger from its hiding spot and signed the log, your act would not take away from my feelings at all. From my perspective, you are you, I am I, and nothing you do can change how I feel about what I do. Another example: I once spent several days solving a puzzle cache that was out of town. I called a friend who lived nearby the cache and told him to start working on it. I made the two hour drive to his house, and watched him whittle away at it, solving it in a tenth of the time it had taken me. What I felt was a horrendously difficult mental challenge was a piece of cake for him. (freekin' smart people!...) His success didn't minimize my success in any way. If we pushed that example to the extreme, and a previous finder had simply handed him the final coords, that still wouldn't detract from my personal sense of accomplishment. Maybe I'm just wired funny?

 

Even if I felt like I wanted to just give out the coords, I don't think I would do it so close to the publish date.

Agreed. Asking for the coords just to nab the FTF does seem a bit crass.

[Clan Riffster]

Dang it all, Toz and Bittsen, make room for me. I believe I just might have to set up camp over on y'all's side.

Careful. Toz has that whole tolerance thing working over there. It's kinda scary!

[+kunarion]

Darned if that tirade didn't just help push me ever so slightly over the Bittsen's way of thinking.

 

Now you have me wondering if there are people out there placing caches because they don't want cripples finding their caches. Guess that's why I have such a hard time finding handicap accessible caches.

My challenge for my first cache placement, was to be as muggle-proof as possible, and still allow those cripples. I have one in the works that’s even more wheelchair accessible.

 

But I set up my 2nd cache deliberately to be lightly found. It excludes people who filter out Unknowns, or seek a park-and-grab, or don’t want to do a puzzle (a very easy one), or who can’t find a rather camouflaged hide. If I were wheelchair-bound, I still might challenge myself to do this cache. Nobody’s asked asked me for the coords, but I’m leaning towards just giving help as appropriate.

 

I also set it up in a gorgeous spot, made a fun background story and a puzzle as original as I can cook up, packed it with stuff that I think people will enjoy pawing through, and the container is just the kind I like to find – a good solid ammo can. My intention is that it’s a memorable cache. There’s not much of an investment of time. It’s not even much of a hike. But the whole thing -- puzzle and all -- is my vision for this cache.

 

So I’ve excluded a lot of those Efficient cachers. And muggles. But I doubt I’m excluding anyone who has enough persistence.

Edited February 23, 2010 by kunarion

[+bittsen]

Well, isn't this a refreshing turn of events.

 

At every party, I start all by myself but eventually people start thinking... "Hey, let's go hang out with the cool one!"

[+thedeadpirate]

Dang it all, Toz and Bittsen, make room for me. I believe I just might have to set up camp over on y'all's side.

Careful. Toz has that whole tolerance thing working over there. It's kinda scary!

 

Actually, I pretty much agree with Toz on the tolerance front. I am not a supporter of the removal of ALRs, even though I don't particularly like most of them.

 

I am of the mind that if you don't like it, don't hunt it. Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

[+bittsen]

Actually, I pretty much agree with Toz on the tolerance front. I am not a supporter of the removal of ALRs, even though I don't particularly like most of them.

 

I am of the mind that if you don't like it, don't hunt it. Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

 

The discussion of ALRs is likely off-topic but I can give a really good reason why ALRs shouldn't be allowed.

 

Many people don't even know there IS an ALR before they look for the cache. So you look for it, find it, sign the log and then the owner deletes your log because you didn't do the extra hoop jumping (because you didn't know you were supposed to).

 

No ALR, no problem.

[+thedeadpirate]

So I’ve excluded a lot of those Efficient cachers. And muggles. But I doubt I’m excluding anyone who has enough persistence.

 

I forgot to include the snark and sarcasm tags. I highly doubt anyone actually sets out to exclude handicapped cachers or people who don't have premium accounts just because they thumb their noses at those who can't afford premium.

 

But it sure is painting with a pretty wide brush to say that just because someone is efficient with their caching that they will also be disrespectful, leave bad logs, and not put caches back properly.

 

To be frank, some of the hardest puzzles I've solved had the lamest physical caches. I solved a series of caches a while back that to date have only had 4 finds. They were located about 9 hours from me and I had no intention of actually finding the physical caches. As luck would have it, I managed to be in the area and went and found them. They were quite lame placements. But the puzzles were a lot of fun.

 

The point being, a good hide is a good hide. If it's worthy, it will stand on its own with or without a puzzle to protect it.

 

But just because someone takes the time to filter caches they want to find because they don't want to waste time on the others does not mean they are rogue cachers.

 

Well, isn't this a refreshing turn of events.

 

At every party, I start all by myself but eventually people start thinking... "Hey, let's go hang out with the cool one!"

 

Oh, I never said I wouldn't enjoy going out caching with you one day. I've told you on more than one occasion that we actually agree on a lot of things. We just have fairly different ways of getting our points across.

 

I still think this is the best reason for hiding puzzle caches. Not to exclude, but to enlighten and inform.

 

I make puzzle caches because I like to lead people down mental paths in a way that I see as similar to leading them down a nice path in a park (or a game trail in the hills, depending on the puzzle). I'm not trying to exclude anybody, just expand their horizons. If you don't like the path, you don't have to follow it, but the cache is at the end of it. Like any cache, the journey is often better than the destination.

[+thedeadpirate]

Actually, I pretty much agree with Toz on the tolerance front. I am not a supporter of the removal of ALRs, even though I don't particularly like most of them.

 

I am of the mind that if you don't like it, don't hunt it. Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

 

The discussion of ALRs is likely off-topic but I can give a really good reason why ALRs shouldn't be allowed.

 

Many people don't even know there IS an ALR before they look for the cache. So you look for it, find it, sign the log and then the owner deletes your log because you didn't do the extra hoop jumping (because you didn't know you were supposed to).

 

No ALR, no problem.

 

The only reason they wouldn't know is because they didn't read the cache listing.

 

That IS one reason a lot of people do make puzzle caches. There are some locations that are sensitive about times cachers are hunting, where they are hunting, certain local rules/policies. In these cases, however, you generally find a very easy to solve puzzle and I would suspect that the CO would not mind at all giving the coords out directly.

[+kunarion]

Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

There are some caches that exclude everybody (re: the unsolvable cache threads).

[+Chrysalides]

Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

There are some caches that exclude everybody (re: the unsolvable cache threads).

*cough* ISS *cough*

[+kunarion]

But it sure is painting with a pretty wide brush to say that just because someone is efficient with their caching that they will also be disrespectful, leave bad logs, and not put caches back properly.

I honestly don't know. I was about to accept that possibility. Then again, another option would be to hang out with the cool crowd.

[+thedeadpirate]

Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

There are some caches that exclude everybody (re: the unsolvable cache threads).

 

That's why I said:

 

I am of the mind that if you don't like it, don't hunt it. Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

 

While I do find it silly to make a cache that has zero chance of being found, if that's what someone wishes to do, then by all means go for it. As long as there IS a solution and there EXISTS the physical cache to find, then I don't see a problem with it. I also see no valid reason for compelling the CO to give out the coords if they don't want to.

 

Of course there is also nothing stopping you from ignoring that hider's caches. (other than the failure by TPTB to implement an easier method for doing so)

[+bittsen]

The only reason they wouldn't know is because they didn't read the cache listing.

 

That IS one reason a lot of people do make puzzle caches. There are some locations that are sensitive about times cachers are hunting, where they are hunting, certain local rules/policies. In these cases, however, you generally find a very easy to solve puzzle and I would suspect that the CO would not mind at all giving the coords out directly.

 

As I said. When I first started caching I spent more time preparing to find a cache than actually going out and finding them. I thought it was a colossal waste of time for a couple reasons.

 

1) I was on Maui for gosh sake. I wanted to be OUT on the island, not sitting in my room preparing to find a scant few geocaches. I wanted to explore by geocaching but each cache took 15 minutes (minimum) to get it together for hunting.

2) I was vacationing 300 miles from home. While my friends were hanging out doing fun stuff, I was sitting in the room gathering information to take my friends caching. I would have loved to have been hanging with my friends playing pool or whatever but it was my job to get the caches ready.

 

I learned real fast that there HAS to be a better way. I do NOT want to spend my time going through pages of instructions to know when and when I can't claim a smiley. I do NOT want to spend lots of time solving puzzles just so I can go out and get a smiley (that's likely no better than a traditional). I have other things I like doing more. That is the point. I CAN solve puzzles but some can't. I choose to ignore the puzzle caches but others might just wish they could get a cache but, they can't because they aren't good with puzzles.

 

~shrugs~

[+thedeadpirate]

Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

There are some caches that exclude everybody (re: the unsolvable cache threads).

*cough* ISS *cough*

 

He's a prime candidate for ignoring his caches. I doubt I will ever travel to space or the bottom of the ocean.

 

** Scratch that. I would actually probably put the ISS cache on my watchlist just to see if there are any geocaching astronauts that find it.

Edited February 23, 2010 by GeoBain

[+thedeadpirate]

I learned real fast that there HAS to be a better way. I do NOT want to spend my time going through pages of instructions to know when and when I can't claim a smiley. I do NOT want to spend lots of time solving puzzles just so I can go out and get a smiley (that's likely no better than a traditional). I have other things I like doing more. That is the point. I CAN solve puzzles but some can't. I choose to ignore the puzzle caches but others might just wish they could get a cache but, they can't because they aren't good with puzzles.

 

See, here is one of those times where we MOSTLY agree. Neither of us wants to spend our time going through pages of instructions when we are traveling. Neither of us wants to spend time solving puzzles when we could be out spending out limited time finding caches and seeing the site. Both of us choose to just ignore puzzle caches.

 

But where you feel that if someone wishes to be given the coords outright a CO should have no problem doing so, I just don't feel the CO should feel at all compelled to give them out unless he wants to.

[+bittsen]

I learned real fast that there HAS to be a better way. I do NOT want to spend my time going through pages of instructions to know when and when I can't claim a smiley. I do NOT want to spend lots of time solving puzzles just so I can go out and get a smiley (that's likely no better than a traditional). I have other things I like doing more. That is the point. I CAN solve puzzles but some can't. I choose to ignore the puzzle caches but others might just wish they could get a cache but, they can't because they aren't good with puzzles.

 

See, here is one of those times where we MOSTLY agree. Neither of us wants to spend our time going through pages of instructions when we are traveling. Neither of us wants to spend time solving puzzles when we could be out spending out limited time finding caches and seeing the site. Both of us choose to just ignore puzzle caches.

 

But where you feel that if someone wishes to be given the coords outright a CO should have no problem doing so, I just don't feel the CO should feel at all compelled to give them out unless he wants to.

 

OMG are we back on this? I never said a CO has to. I merely said I would.

I wouldn't even dare to ask a CO if I could get help with a puzzle. If I were to want to do a certain puzzle cache (which I assure you will NEVER happen), I will either solve the puzzle, or if I can't I will say eff it and find something else to do.

[+Chrysalides]

He's a prime candidate for ignoring his caches. I doubt I will ever travel to space or the bottom of the ocean.

 

** Scratch that. I would actually probably put the ISS cache on my watchlist just to see if there are any geocaching astronauts that find it.

Oh, it doesn't upset me that the cache is there. I never run any PQs where those caches show up, and they can for great conversation topic when talking about geocaching to any non geocacher (which is probably why Jeremy published them). But to me they're prime examples of geocaches that try to exclude people from logging, placed "because I can".

 

I wouldn't bother with placing it on my watchlist. If someone finds that one, I'm sure it'll be in the weekly newsletter as well as spawn 15 different threads here (before a mod combines them).

[+briansnat]

1) I was on Maui for gosh sake. I wanted to be OUT on the island, not sitting in my room preparing to find a scant few geocaches. I wanted to explore by geocaching but each cache took 15 minutes (minimum) to get it together for hunting. 2) I was vacationing 300 miles from home. While my friends were hanging out doing fun stuff, I was sitting in the room gathering information to take my friends caching. I would have loved to have been hanging with my friends playing pool or whatever but it was my job to get the caches ready.

 

Wow! Bookmarked.

[+Chrysalides]

OMG are we back on this? I never said a CO has to. I merely said I would.

No, you said a little more than that.

 

Oh, I would have. It's just a cache, not fort knox or anything important.

Which shows remarkable disrespect for the OP.

[+bittsen]

1) I was on Maui for gosh sake. I wanted to be OUT on the island, not sitting in my room preparing to find a scant few geocaches. I wanted to explore by geocaching but each cache took 15 minutes (minimum) to get it together for hunting. 2) I was vacationing 300 miles from home. While my friends were hanging out doing fun stuff, I was sitting in the room gathering information to take my friends caching. I would have loved to have been hanging with my friends playing pool or whatever but it was my job to get the caches ready.

 

Wow! Bookmarked.

 

~LOL~

 

And just why would this be special enough to bookmark?

[+thedeadpirate]

I learned real fast that there HAS to be a better way. I do NOT want to spend my time going through pages of instructions to know when and when I can't claim a smiley. I do NOT want to spend lots of time solving puzzles just so I can go out and get a smiley (that's likely no better than a traditional). I have other things I like doing more. That is the point. I CAN solve puzzles but some can't. I choose to ignore the puzzle caches but others might just wish they could get a cache but, they can't because they aren't good with puzzles.

 

See, here is one of those times where we MOSTLY agree. Neither of us wants to spend our time going through pages of instructions when we are traveling. Neither of us wants to spend time solving puzzles when we could be out spending out limited time finding caches and seeing the site. Both of us choose to just ignore puzzle caches.

 

But where you feel that if someone wishes to be given the coords outright a CO should have no problem doing so, I just don't feel the CO should feel at all compelled to give them out unless he wants to.

 

OMG are we back on this? I never said a CO has to. I merely said I would.

I wouldn't even dare to ask a CO if I could get help with a puzzle. If I were to want to do a certain puzzle cache (which I assure you will NEVER happen), I will either solve the puzzle, or if I can't I will say eff it and find something else to do.

 

Come on Bittsen, take a page out of your own playbook and read what I said. I did not say you said he had to.

 

Upon a second reading, do you not agree with what I stated as being the way we view things?

[+bittsen]

See, here is one of those times where we MOSTLY agree. Neither of us wants to spend our time going through pages of instructions when we are traveling. Neither of us wants to spend time solving puzzles when we could be out spending out limited time finding caches and seeing the site. Both of us choose to just ignore puzzle caches.

 

But where you feel that if someone wishes to be given the coords outright a CO should have no problem doing so, I just don't feel the CO should feel at all compelled to give them out unless he wants to.

 

OMG are we back on this? I never said a CO has to. I merely said I would.

I wouldn't even dare to ask a CO if I could get help with a puzzle. If I were to want to do a certain puzzle cache (which I assure you will NEVER happen), I will either solve the puzzle, or if I can't I will say eff it and find something else to do.

 

You highlighted a different part than the part I was responding to. I fixed it.

 

Come on Bittsen, take a page out of your own playbook and read what I said. I did not say you said he had to.

 

Upon a second reading, do you not agree with what I stated as being the way we view things?

[+thedeadpirate]

See, here is one of those times where we MOSTLY agree. Neither of us wants to spend our time going through pages of instructions when we are traveling. Neither of us wants to spend time solving puzzles when we could be out spending out limited time finding caches and seeing the site. Both of us choose to just ignore puzzle caches.

 

But where you feel that if someone wishes to be given the coords outright a CO should have no problem doing so, I just don't feel the CO should feel at all compelled to give them out unless he wants to.

 

OMG are we back on this? I never said a CO has to. I merely said I would.

I wouldn't even dare to ask a CO if I could get help with a puzzle. If I were to want to do a certain puzzle cache (which I assure you will NEVER happen), I will either solve the puzzle, or if I can't I will say eff it and find something else to do.

 

You highlighted a different part than the part I was responding to. I fixed it.

 

Come on Bittsen, take a page out of your own playbook and read what I said. I did not say you said he had to.

 

Upon a second reading, do you not agree with what I stated as being the way we view things?

 

Are you saying that's not the way I feel about the situation?

[+kunarion]

When I first started caching I spent more time preparing to find a cache than actually going out and finding them. I thought it was a colossal waste of time for a couple reasons.

 

1) I was on Maui for gosh sake. I wanted to be OUT on the island, not sitting in my room preparing to find a scant few geocaches. I wanted to explore by geocaching but each cache took 15 minutes (minimum) to get it together for hunting.

 

But you can’t just do a PQ and go running off. Well, I can’t. I have to know in advance which caches probably don’t exist anymore, which ones will be impossible to access (due to flood waters, or whatever), which ones are actually multis or puzzles but are incorrectly listed, which have odd hours or location rules, or which have any of a number of serious issues. You can’t automatically block those caches, and even with the exact coordinates, you’re gonna be prevented from finding many of them.

 

Before I go out on a cache run, I’ve inspected each cache page, maps, logs and all. The puzzle caches do slow things down, but mainly they hold up the entire run. I first complete the puzzles (say, over a few weeks), then the hard work begins: researching the group of caches for problems. Even park-n-grabs will get tedious if a lot of them are gone. If it’s a waste of time to work on a cache puzzle, it’s worse if you travel there & hunt and there’s no cache. Even the CO might not have that info (hence the research).

 

I don't print out all the cache pages anymore. But I’d sure like to know how you find even Traditionals without first poring over them. Maybe I’ll start a thread about it.

 

And I cannot imagine Geocaching while I’m on Maui. OK, maybe one or two.

Edited February 23, 2010 by kunarion

[+Jackalgirl]

I have had a geocacher ask me for the final coordinates to my Puzzle Geocache hide. The reason given that the puzzle is too hard to work out and what is the fun in having only half the people find the cache, apparently the fun is finding the cache, not trying to work out a puzzle!

 

I'm not so good with math, only so-so good with logic puzzles. Got this one in fewer than 5 minutes and my first solution was correct. This is not to say that the person who wrote you is an idiot, but I do tend to think that it sounds like the person wasn't really trying. I don't know, maybe it was too hard -- it probably would be, to someone who doesn't have any experience whatsoever with logic puzzles. Who knows.

 

Anyway, I like some of the various suggestions in the thread: I like the "this is new, so I won't give coordinates [or, perhaps, "anything more than light hints" (see below)] for the first 30 days" suggestion. I also like the suggestion of offering a number of levels of assistance, going from light hints, to instructions on how to work out the solution, to the out-and-out set of coordinates (after some time has passed to allow someone who likes puzzles, for whom the cache is designed, to find it first). I think those are good ideas.

[+thedeadpirate]

But you can’t just do a PQ and go running off. Well, I can’t.

 

A lot of us do paperless caching. He downloads PQ's directly to his Colorada, I download mine to Cachmate on my phone. Either way, we have a full listing of the cache (at least with the last 4 logs).

 

That's why filtering out the multis and puzzles right off the top should allow you to head on out and find caches.

 

However, even though I always carry the cache info with me and can access the information live via my phone, I generally plan ahead as well. I would not be sitting in my hotel room in Maui planning out my caches. I would have done that a few days prior to departure.

 

But back on topic, making sure someone reads the cache listing for any required information is a valid reason for making an otherwise traditional cache into a puzzle. I'm fairly sure that is not the overriding reason most puzzle caches exist, though.

 

FTF hounds that can't work puzzles should ignore them and move on. If they just have to find the cache for the sake of finding it, then they should at least wait a while before making such a request outright.

 

I'm not so good with math, only so-so good with logic puzzles. Got this one in fewer than 5 minutes and my first solution was correct. This is not to say that the person who wrote you is an idiot, but I do tend to think that it sounds like the person wasn't really trying. I don't know, maybe it was too hard -- it probably would be, to someone who doesn't have any experience whatsoever with logic puzzles. Who knows.

 

That's why, along with the timing, it seems to be more about someone trying to get FTF than anything else. But that's a whole other can of worms.

 

Anyway, I like some of the various suggestions in the thread: I like the "this is new, so I won't give coordinates [or, perhaps, "anything more than light hints" (see below)] for the first 30 days" suggestion. I also like the suggestion of offering a number of levels of assistance, going from light hints, to instructions on how to work out the solution, to the out-and-out set of coordinates (after some time has passed to allow someone who likes puzzles, for whom the cache is designed, to find it first). I think those are good ideas.

 

I concur. And most puzzle owners would be willing to do any of those.

[+bittsen]

I had a really nice and long reply bt the forum software ate it.

 

I guess you will all have to imagine what I was going to say.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

I had a really nice and long reply bt the forum software ate it.

 

I guess you will all have to imagine what I was going to say.

 

I imagined, and it made me very, very angry!

 

No, wait. I've thought it over a bit more and now it's made me very, very happy!

[+kunarion]

I've thought it over a bit more and now it's made me very, very happy!

I can imagine.

[7rxc]

Regardless of the reason someone decided to hide a particular cache; even if for the purpose of specifically excluding some subset of the caching population.

There are some caches that exclude everybody (re: the unsolvable cache threads).

There are some caches that exclude NOBODY (re: the muggled/stolen cache threads).

 

Doug

[+mountainman38]

If a cache owner were to put the answer in an encrypted hint would you find that harmful?

 

Yes. What's the point of making a puzzle, then putting the answer right out in plain sight? Hints are generally encrypted, so if I decrypt them to see what the CO wants to give for help, I'm pretty let down if it's the answer.

 

If the cache owner can give hints when someone asks, could they sit with the person and show them step by step how to work the puzzle? Making up rules that say that once you posted a puzzle cache the cache owner cannot decide to add a hint or to provide any help to someone who asks that want seems absurd.

 

Also absurd that you would say this. Of course a CO can give whatever help they want. The idea that once a puzzle is published it can never be touched again is ridiculous, and one you've come up with on your own.

 

The person who solved the puzzle knows they solved the puzzle. If they need to shout it out to the world they could even post in their log "I solved the puzzle".

 

It's a puzzle cache. Why would someone need to note that they solved the puzzle, in order to find a puzzle cache? This is some strange logic.

 

If someone needs the accomplishment of getting a geocaching find smiley to mean they solved the puzzle, they are doing puzzle for the wrong reason.

 

Why do you get to decide what a person's motivations for finding a puzzle cache should be?

 

I like puzzles because they are fun to solve. I hide puzzle caches because I think there are people who have fun solving them.

 

Great! We agree about something, then.

 

But I know that some people who have logged some of my puzzle caches didn't solve the puzzle. They either went to find the cache with someone who did solve the puzzle or, in one case, they found the cache after placing one that got turned down for being to close. When they went back to move their cache, they looked in a little larger area around where they had placed theirs, and found my cache. I let the finds stand because they found the cache.

 

While I would hope that people actually solve the puzzles I'm working on, if they stumble on one, or worse yet, piggy back off of someone else, I'm not going to delete their log. If they want to claim the find, that's their choice. I think log deletion is a pretty drastic step, and it would take a lot worse than this for me to do it.

 

On the subject of piggy backing, I have a great partner that I cache with. He doesn't solve a lot of puzzles, so when I go for them, he'll go along for the hike or bike ride, but doesn't sign the log. I certainly don't try to tell him how to cache -- he just doesn't get any enjoyment out of getting the reward for someone else's work.

 

SNIP

 

...When I get a question about one of my puzzles, I give a hint. But usually it is so cryptic that people stop asking. If they came back and asked again I would give a better hint. And if they were still having trouble I may explain how to solve the puzzle. I would hope that they may understand how to do puzzles like this in the future and will have fun doing them.

 

I think that's a great approach. When I started solving puzzle caches, I had CO's do similar things for me, and it really helped. Now that I know more of what to look for, I'm able to do a lot more on my own.

 

...The reward for finding a cache is the fun you had finding it, and in solving the puzzle if you enjoy that...

 

This I agree with, too. I also like the smiley.

[+mountainman38]

 

SNIP

 

Now you have me wondering if there are people out there placing caches because they don't want cripples finding their caches. Guess that's why I have such a hard time finding handicap accessible caches.

 

If I knew of a physically challenged cacher/cachers in my area, I think it would be a blast to design some well hidden and difficult puzzles/traditionals that were accessible. That would add to the fun of finding a good spot for the hide.

 

I wonder if there really is something to people hiding PMO caches because they really do thumb their noses at people who can't afford a premium membership.

 

I don't see the value in making caches exclusive to paid members. Not sure what the benefit would be, other than a vague sense of exclusivity.

[+tozainamboku]

If a cache owner were to put the answer in an encrypted hint would you find that harmful?

 

Yes. What's the point of making a puzzle, then putting the answer right out in plain sight? Hints are generally encrypted, so if I decrypt them to see what the CO wants to give for help, I'm pretty let down if it's the answer.

What's the point in selling puzzle books and magazines with the answers in the back? Granted that you might not expect the encrypted hint to have the answer, but if that is what the cache owner decided to do wouldn't that be his decision? You never know if the hint is going to a gentle nudge or an outright spoiler so there's always a risk you're going to find out more than you wanted to know when you decrypt the hint.

 

I have one puzzle where I have three hints, each revealing a little more about the puzzle. Of course if you click the decrypt link, all three hints are decrypt. It's up to to you to stop reading, when before you find out more than you wanted to know. In any case, if the hint had the answer it might not prevent me from still working the puzzle to see if I got the same result. Again the motivation for doing the puzzle should be the fun and satisfaction you get in solving it.

 

Cache owners will sometimes hide answers to puzzles in plain sight, just like hiding caches in plain sight. You'd be surprised how some people in their quest to solve the puzzle will ignore the obvious.

 

I recently did a puzzle where after solving the puzzle I went to the coordinates and found it was a decoy. It said I should go back and reread the cache page. Sure enough no where did it say the cache was not a the posted coordinates or that I had to solve the puzzle to find the cache.

 

If the cache owner can give hints when someone asks, could they sit with the person and show them step by step how to work the puzzle? Making up rules that say that once you posted a puzzle cache the cache owner cannot decide to add a hint or to provide any help to someone who asks that want seems absurd.

 

Also absurd that you would say this. Of course a CO can give whatever help they want. The idea that once a puzzle is published it can never be touched again is ridiculous, and one you've come up with on your own.

So why can't they give out the answer if they want to?

 

If someone needs the accomplishment of getting a geocaching find smiley to mean they solved the puzzle, they are doing puzzle for the wrong reason.

 

Why do you get to decide what a person's motivations for finding a puzzle cache should be?

I have no control over what a person's motivation is for finding a cache. I will however continue to rail against the smiley motivation. There are some in the forums that go further than me. They blame the pusuit of the smiley for everything they perceive as wrong with geocaching. I simply view it as people who have yet to learn what geocaching is really about. Either they will eventually learn that the smiley is not the reason they cache or they will quit geocaching because it is no longer fun. Solve the puzzles because you enjoy them and stop worrying if some cache owner is giving coordinates out to anyone who asks. Stop worrying about people using phone-a-friends or puzzle cache cheat sites to get hints or coordinates. Stop worrying about the cacher who log the find because he went to the cache with a friend who did all the mental work. If this were a contest where you won $$ for solving puzzles, I could see some rules to prevent cheating. However, geocaching is a game played for enjoyment and the way things are setup there isn't anyway to enforce these rules. Solve puzzles because you enjoy them. Stop imagining your accomplishment is diminished by someone logging a find who might not have solve the puzzle like you did.

[+The Blorenges]

 

I don't think puzzle caches are as sacred as people want them to be, that's all. I don't know for sure but I suspect that Dave Ulmer probably doesn't like them either. The game came from "post coordinates, find cache". Yes, it's evolved but as history shows, not all evolution is good evolution. That's how we ended up with the Duckbilled Platypus (and thousands of deadly viruses).

 

 

Hang on a minute... What's that?... Did I see a derogatory remark about duckbilled platypuses shoe-horned in there?

 

There's room for all variations, you know... including naturally occuring evolutionary aberrations such as puzzle caches, platypuses and (possibly, even) green dragons.

 

MrsB

[+Chrysalides]

Hang on a minute... What's that?... Did I see a derogatory remark about duckbilled platypuses shoe-horned in there?

Shocking! I'm appalled that such a flagrant transgression of common decency could occur right here in the forums! Is nothing sacred?

[+bittsen]

Hang on a minute... What's that?... Did I see a derogatory remark about duckbilled platypuses shoe-horned in there?

Shocking! I'm appalled that such a flagrant transgression of common decency could occur right here in the forums! Is nothing sacred?

 

Yeah, life's rough sometimes.

 

Go buy a donut!

[+Sioneva]

Hang on a minute... What's that?... Did I see a derogatory remark about duckbilled platypuses shoe-horned in there?

Shocking! I'm appalled that such a flagrant transgression of common decency could occur right here in the forums! Is nothing sacred?

 

Yeah, life's rough sometimes.

 

Go buy a donut!

 

*looks up* Did someone mention donuts?

[+bittsen]

Hang on a minute... What's that?... Did I see a derogatory remark about duckbilled platypuses shoe-horned in there?

Shocking! I'm appalled that such a flagrant transgression of common decency could occur right here in the forums! Is nothing sacred?

 

Yeah, life's rough sometimes.

 

Go buy a donut!

 

*looks up* Did someone mention donuts?

 

No, sorry to get you excited.

I mentioned donut, just one. No extras.

[+Matthew 7:7 Too]

They only sell doughnuts over here ;-)

 

Chris

[+geodarts]

I have a puzzle that has been solved once without my help, once with quite a bit of help, and found once. Its really quite easy but people have been overthinking it. The finder suggested that other cachers take me out for a beer and ply me for the answer at the appropriate moment. I am disappointed that no one has taken his advice.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Erickson

[+Sioneva]

Hang on a minute... What's that?... Did I see a derogatory remark about duckbilled platypuses shoe-horned in there?

Shocking! I'm appalled that such a flagrant transgression of common decency could occur right here in the forums! Is nothing sacred?

 

Yeah, life's rough sometimes.

 

Go buy a donut!

 

*looks up* Did someone mention donuts?

 

No, sorry to get you excited.

I mentioned donut, just one. No extras.

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

When I want to geocache, I want to load a PQ full of caches and leave the house. That IS why I pay $30 per year. So I can get the location to geocaches through the easiest method possible. I'm not stupid, I'm efficient. Why go through all the steps to solve a puzzle for a single cache when there are so many that don't require the puzzle?

 

Great job! You have perfectly described the kind of person that I don't want to find my caches, and why I make so many puzzle caches.

 

I want my caches to be found by those who will appreciate them and the effort that went into making them, rather than the kind that grab as many caches as they can in the shortest possible time.

 

Efficient cachers leave cut-n-paste logs or TNLNSL logs, because they don't want to waste time logging their finds.

 

Efficient cachers often don't replace the cache the way it was hidden, because that requires too much effort.

 

Efficient cachers don't like multis, because they take too much time per smiley.

 

Efficient cachers tend to skip my caches.

 

Hooray.

 

Speaking for myself,

 

I don't leave cut-n-paste logs and generally try to write at least a couple of sentences in the logs, no matter how lame I might think the cache is.

 

I always try to replace the cache as I found it, though will occasionally cover it up a little better if it appears to be too exposed.

 

Because my time is often limited I try to research any multi-cache I do first and may put them off for another time when I have more time to spend geocaching.

 

I enjoy doing puzzles, though I tend to prefer those where I can solve the puzzle before I leave the house.

 

That said, I still think that there is a time for "efficient geocaching". If the amount of time I have free to go geocaching in a given month is limited to only a few hours, I'm going to try an make the most of that time.

 

In less than a month I'm going to have a 7 hour layover in Paris on the way to Johannesburg, South Africa. With that amount of time I should be able to take the train from the airport, spend a couple of hours in the city center to see a few sights and grab a few caches, then head back to the airport. Have you seen how many puzzle caches there are in Paris? Of the 380 caches within 10 miles of the city center, 91 are puzzle caches, and 28 of those are rated 4 stars and higher. Many of the caches are located at tourist spots such that one could not visit that place and find a cache nearby without solving a 4-5 star puzzle. For example, the train from the airport goes to a station very close to the Notre Dame. If I want to see the Notre Dame and find a cache nearby duirng my limited amount of time there I'm going to have to solve a 5 star puzzle cache first.