Bomb Squad Investigates Ammo Canister, Finds Toys

[+Kai Team]

A large, military style ammunition can spotted on a walking trail in Onondaga Lake Park caused a section of the park to be shut down for more than two hours Thursday while the Onondaga County Sheriff's Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squad investigated, said Sgt. John D'Eredita of the Sheriff's office. 

 

It turned out the container was filled with pencils, dice and small toys.  The section of the trail between Willow Bay and the Onondaga Yacht Club was closed from about 9:50 a.m. to 12:10 p.m.

Looks like it might have been this cache.

 

One member of our team has worked professionally with the park authorities developing youth oriented facilities and activities in this very park. We'd spoken to them about geocaching and CITO about three months ago - at the time they didn't feel they needed a geocaching policy. Wonder if that will change now and what the best "damage control" strategy might be.

[+The Leprechauns]

Well, for starters, whoever was involved in those discussions could perhaps, in concert with the cache owner, follow up with all those involved in the incident to remind them of the prior positive contacts you described. Get in touch with the police, the land manager and the reporter who wrote the news story. Turn a negative into a positive by demonstrating that geocachers are concerned about minimizing the risk of incidents like this.

 

I wouldn't offer the opportunity to be regulated. Rather, by positive follow-up conduct, I would demonstrate why the land manager ought to be comfortable in allowing the area geocachers to remain self-regulating.

[+Kai Team]

I've sent an email to the cache owner (whom we've met) and offered our assistance.

 

Unfortunately, the person with the contacts is out of state until Monday. But, being the holiday weekend, there's probably not much that could be done before next week anyway.

[+FatherPippy]

A large, military style ammunition can spotted on a walking trail in Onondaga Lake Park

Would it be unhelpful if I said: "The real problem is that it was spotted..."

[+Kai Team]

Would it be unhelpful if I said: "The real problem is that it was spotted..."

In some ways, that's true. It helps to keep a sense of humor.

 

Just for the record, the owner is a very responsible geocacher - I'm sure it was properly hidden when it was placed!

[+Ambrosia]

I have been doing a lot of cache maintanance lately, and I've been amazed at how many of my caches have not been re-hidden very well. You can just walk by and see them, as if the last cacher didn't care at all. I'm starting to think that there's not much you can do or hope for when it comes to the general geocaching public.

 

Wow. I sound cynical.

[+halffast]

I have been doing a lot of cache maintanance lately, and I've been amazed at how many of my caches have not been re-hidden very well. You can just walk by and see them, as if the last cacher didn't care at all. I'm starting to think that there's not much you can do or hope for when it comes to the general geocaching public.

 

Wow. I sound cynical.

I think this happens way to much.I have to check my cache in the city park after each time someone logs a found it.Most of the time it has just been thrown in the bushes and not hidden.

[Shoobie & the Sand Crabs]

that happened again people are way to suspicious these days everyone is paranoid.

[+Sonoran Privateers]

While it may be 'taking the easy way out', perhaps it's just best if we stick to public property for our hides.

 

Of course, that's easy where I am. I have eleventybillion acres of public land on which to hide stuff.

[+fly46]

A large, military style ammunition can spotted on a walking trail in Onondaga Lake Park

Would it be unhelpful if I said: "The real problem is that it was spotted..."

lol. I think that's a really good observation, actually...

 

Still, I reiterate - ammo cans are not for everywhere.

[+Sonoran Privateers]

A large, military style ammunition can spotted on a walking trail in Onondaga Lake Park

Would it be unhelpful if I said: "The real problem is that it was spotted..."

lol. I think that's a really good observation, actually...

 

Still, I reiterate - ammo cans are not for everywhere.

Perhaps if the cache were an ornate jewelry box with ribbons and such, it would not have been mistaken for an explosive.

[+Miragee]

A large, military style ammunition can spotted on a walking trail in Onondaga Lake Park

Would it be unhelpful if I said: "The real problem is that it was spotted..."

As others have said, this is a very good observation.

 

I have returned to a few caches and found them to be completely exposed. Admittedly these were in very rural areas where "muggle" traffic is negligible, but I was dismayed to see the ammo cans much more visible than when I found them . . . and left them.

[Tally Dragon]

I've started replacing all my geocache containers with ammo boxes. I do this because ammo boxes hold up to weather and abuse better than anything else I've tried. Also because they have plenty of room for travel bugs and whatever else someone wants to place in them. I buy them from an Army Surplus store and they always come with a little rust that needs painting over. So while I'm doing that I stencil GEOCACHE in flat black on both sides.

 

Had this ammo box they found been labeled as a geocache it might have headed off calling the bomb squad.

 

[+robert]

good point about the stenciling, but to add a bit more novelty to it, perhaps the site address would make it even better.

 

our state parks generally frown on ammo cans, though in western maryland where the weather can get quite severe, they've started allowing ammo cans if they're painted white. guess it gives it less of a "military" style look.

 

i use lock-n-lock containers which are quite tough and hold up well to wet conditions and freezing temperatures, plus people seem to be able to close them and don't complain about pinched fingers.

 

[KYHillbilly]

I agree that people don't always put caches back exactly as they were found. However, I also agree that labeling the container a cache is a good idea. I know you want it to be 100% cammo'ed, but if it's well hidden, stencils or labels won't be visible until the cache is retrieved.

 

On the Geocaching.com website, there are ammo can stickers with geocaching.com, the name of the cache, and contact info on it. It may not be completely cammo, but it would never be mistaken for a bomb.

[+Wadcutter]

Labeling is a good idea. Also, how about "this is not a bomb". No bomber would ever mismark a container. If they did then they'd be in big trouble with the truth in packaging law.

So what's a bomb look like?

[+Lil Devil]

they've started allowing ammo cans if they're painted white.  guess it gives it less of a "military" style look.

Nobody will ever accuse my ammo boxes of looking "military"

 

[+robert]

PERFECT!

[ju66l3r]

Labeling is a good idea. Also, how about "this is not a bomb". No bomber would ever mismark a container. If they did then they'd be in big trouble with the truth in packaging law.

So what's a bomb look like?

 

or

 

 

Those are the two most common bombs to look for.

 

If you find the first, throw it high into the air and it will explode harmlessly. The second should have it's fuse pulled out (do not proceed to hold the bomb and the lit fuse in separate hands or it will still be able to go off when the fuse burns down to your fingers).

 

Hope that helps.

[+Anonymous']

Yep, Enspyer has been talking about this on the Back of the School Bus Thread. Link (If you aren't a premium member you can't view this)

[+Renegade Knight]

....at the time they didn't feel they needed a geocaching policy. Wonder if that will change now and what the best "damage control" strategy might be.

Damage controls is probably knowing what all else has been reported as 'suspicious' in the community. Caches are not special in this regard. The cache and geocaching was, is and remains harmless, just as all the other ordinary items reported as suspicious. If we lived in the perfect society we could geocache in peace. However outside factors cause us to live on edge in some aspects and that has boxes of shoes reported as drugs and/or bombs. It's not a side effect of geocaching it's a side effect of being vigilant and playing it safe.

 

If it’s a recreational park they don’t need a geocaching policy. If they had one and even if they knew exactly where the cache was at, it’s likely that it would of still had the same outcome.

 

To put this in perspective. If the park had an outdoor activity, and someone left behind a peice of proffesional grade electronic equipment. It too could get reported and shut down the park for two hours.

[+sept1c_tank]

Damage controls is probably knowing what all else has been reported as 'suspicious' in the community.  Caches are not special in this regard.  The cache and geocaching was, is and remains harmless, just as all the other ordinary items reported as suspicious. If we lived in the perfect society we could geocache in peace.  However outside factors cause us to live on edge in some aspects and that has boxes of shoes reported as drugs and/or bombs.  It's not a side effect of geocaching it's a side effect of being vigilant and playing it safe.

Well said. Our society is paranoid. It's sad.

[+Wadcutter]

If you find the first, throw it high into the air and it will explode harmlessly. The second should have it's fuse pulled out (do not proceed to hold the bomb and the lit fuse in separate hands or it will still be able to go off when the fuse burns down to your fingers).

Hope that helps.

And you are always suppose to cut the red wire. Or is it the blue wire? Never can remember that sequence.

[+robert]

And you are always suppose to cut the red wire. Or is it the blue wire? Never can remember that sequence.

sometimes they switch colors just to trick you.

[+Kai Team]

Damage controls is probably knowing what all else has been reported as 'suspicious' in the community.  Caches are not special in this regard.  The cache and geocaching was, is and remains harmless, just as all the other ordinary items reported as suspicious. If we lived in the perfect society we could geocache in peace.  However outside factors cause us to live on edge in some aspects and that has boxes of shoes reported as drugs and/or bombs.  It's not a side effect of geocaching it's a side effect of being vigilant and playing it safe.

 

If it’s a recreational park they don’t need a geocaching policy. If they had one and even if they knew exactly where the cache was at, it’s likely that it would of still had the same outcome.

 

To put this in perspective.  If the park had an outdoor activity, and someone left behind a peice of proffesional grade electronic equipment.  It too could get reported and shut down the park for two hours.

Good point - it helps to put things in perspective. If caches are properly labeled (this one was), it should reduce the odds of a call to the bomb squad, compared to other suspicious packages that might be left laying around. It would also help if the Park authorities knew how to look up caches in their parks (to the point above about labeling not ruling out legitimate concerns). If they knew where the caches are hidden, and the cache is properly labeled on the outside, it should reduce the odds of a repeat occurence.

 

There are many caches in this park (it's a large park that wraps around the lake) and in other County parks (including one of ours - CNY Falls #1).

 

We're going to call the Park authorities tomorrow. Our goal is to be proactive and head off an overreaction if it looks like they're headed that way (they may see it as "no big deal", but they may not!). We're also corresponding privately with Enspyer.

[+Kai Team]

good point about the stenciling, but to add a bit more novelty to it, perhaps the site address would make it even better.

 

our state parks generally frown on ammo cans, though in western maryland where the weather can get quite severe, they've started allowing ammo cans if they're painted white.  guess it gives it less of a "military" style look.

 

i use lock-n-lock containers which are quite tough and hold up well to wet conditions and freezing temperatures, plus people seem to be able to close them and don't complain about pinched fingers.

 

Lock n Lock's are good, especially for high traffic areas, because they're clear. Enspyer has already mentioned using a clear container if they replace this cache.

 

We still use a lot of ammo cans because of their durability. Although we always label our cans on the outside (and put the standard sheet, and contact information, on the inside) we've decided to start being much more conspicuous with the labeling (i.e. both sides, top, bottom, ends).

 

We recently discovered the bold Sharpie Paint Markers, which come in a variety of colors, including white (makes a nice contrast on those OD ammo cans). I think that's the way we're going to go because it makes it easy to beef up the labeling on caches that are already in the field, during our maintenance runs.

[+Wadcutter]

And you are always suppose to cut the red wire.  Or is it the blue wire?  Never can remember that sequence.

sometimes they switch colors just to trick you.

There ought to be a law against them doing that.

[+Enspyer]

Look at this- a topic about my cache!

 

I guess we're covering most of the points already, but I would like to mentions that part of the intentional attraction was that this cache was an ammo box in a very heavily traveled area. It's the sort of place that most people in the area have visited at one time or another. It lasted just a bit over a year, which was I very good life span considering how many caches I've had go missing in much less conspicuous places. When placing it, I knew there was a danger of muggling but didn't consider the "bomb" issue.

 

The cache was hidden a hollow area of the below tree on the water side:

 

 

Edit: resized picture

Edited July 4, 2005 by Enspyer

[hgmonaro]

Most muggles don't know what a geocache is or what geocaching is, so labeling it as such probably won't stop the "it's a bomb" call if the muggle is inclined to come to that conclusion. Even if it had a full explanation on the side, would they pick it up to read it, they probably won't open it to read the splurb inside.

 

BTW, that tree is to nice to be blowing up!

[+sept1c_tank]

Look at this- a topic about my cache!

 

I guess we're covering most of the points already, but I would like to mentions that part of the intentional attraction was that this cache was an ammo box in a very heavily traveled area. It's the sort of place that most people in the area have visited at one time or another. It lasted just a bit over a year, which was I very good life span considering how many caches I've had go missing in much less conspicuous places. When placing it, I knew there was a danger of muggling but didn't consider the "bomb" issue.

 

The cache was hidden a hollow area of the below tree on the water side:

 

 

Edit: resized picture

People are so paranoid. Sure looks harmless to me.

[ju66l3r]

The cache was hidden a hollow area of the below tree on the water side...

Oh noes! You coulda blown up a duck!

[+sTeamTraen]

Most muggles don't know what a geocache is or what geocaching is, so labeling it as such probably won't stop the "it's a bomb" call if the muggle is inclined to come to that conclusion.

I read (somewhere on the Web, so it must be true ) about an airport security guy who called the bomb squad because he saw some or other electronic gizmo which had been abandoned. He "knew" it was a bomb because... it had a 7-segment LED display on it. And everyone knows (because they saw it in a movie, and movies always get tech stuff 100% right) that the 7-segment LED display is the single indispensable component of any bomb. Presumably the bomb squad stopped it when it read 0:07.

 

Likewise, if it's painted olive drab, it must be filled with explosives. (*) And if an e-mail asking for your password says it's from PayPal, it must be from PayPal.

 

Just a thought: most of the bombs going off in Iraq seem to be cars. I hope (for more than the obvious reason) that nobody starts letting off car bombs in major US cities. "Officer, that car's new to our neighborhood. It must be a bomb!"

 

 

(*) Mind you, I wish people would at least cover up the words "fragmentation grenades". I saw those on a couple of ammo boxes in Holland. To a muggle, the small sticky label on the top saying "No Danger" in English, would have been less reassuring...

[+VegasCacheHounds]

The cache was hidden a hollow area of the below tree on the water side...

Oh noes! You coulda blown up a duck!

[+Kai Team]

Enspyer (who owned this cache) joined us in meeting with the Park Supervisor today. Turns out the cache was first hit with a water cannon and when that didn't open it (those ammo cans are tough ) they placed a charge on it and blew the lid off (but not that tough).

 

We had a good meeting with the park super. The Park Supervisor said they consider geocaching an appropriate activity for the County parks and don't want to discourage it, but they need to insure that there aren't any more bomb scares. In view of the London bombings, we understand their concern.

 

They may develop a policy, but it doesn't sound like it will be onerous - they mostly want to know where the caches are so they can avoid another incident (there are 39 caches in County parks, 19 of which are in the park where this incident ocurred). I offered to show him how to find out exactly where caches are using satellite imagery on the Internet and will follow up with him on that (he was interested).

 

We'll continue to work with the parks department as they work things out. The Park Supervisor gave Enspyer permission to replace her cache immediately, asking only that she not use an ammo can right now! Looks like they're going to be very reasonable about the whole thing.

[+sbell111]

Just out of curiosity, did they remove it from the tree before they blew it up, or is the tree now laying in the pond?

[+Renegade Knight]

...but they need to insure that there aren't any more bomb scares.  In view of the London bombings, we understand their concern....

That can't be done. Remember bomb scares are a side effect of worrying about bombs. Not a side effect of having parks and activites in them. While it would be nice if there were never false alarms, it's just not practical. If you ban all activites that lead to bomb scares you are also banning the fundamental freedoms that make up life libery and the persuit of happiness. Thats what our founding fathers sold our forefathers on. People who are in the government and have the authority to start banning fun things should keep that in mind.

 

The London Bombings have nothing to do with it other than driving paranoia. During the 70's and 80's when Lebanon was in chaos. The people got by by going about their lives. You just can't dwell on the crap. It's random, it's a fact, and it's not a reason to dust off your tinfoil beanie and build an underground bunker.

 

In a separte issue I've been giving the thought to painting containers a lot of thought. The fact is suspiciouse pacages of all kinds should be reported because we do live in a world where people blow up things to prove a point. If would be a bad thing if we ever did find a paint job that made people stop reporting certain containers. Then those containers would then be used as an example of how to disguise an actual bomb. In other words we absolutly need people to report things they think are bombs even if it's a cache, or a box of toys, or a duffel bag of gym gear. What we don't need is to have to give up toys, gym gear, duffle bags, and geocaching. The bomb squad is here to keep us safe, not to ban all activities that might cause them to investigate a false alarm. If they start taking away our freedomes in the name of no false alarms they are doing the wrong job.

Edited July 8, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+Enspyer]

Just out of curiosity, did they remove it from the tree before they blew it up, or is the tree now laying in the pond?

They seem to have blown it up in the tree because the inside of the tree seemed a bit "chopped up". The tree is still standing though.

[4wheelin_fool]

Not the first time this has happened

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...opic=31190&st=0

[+Kai Team]

...but they need to insure that there aren't any more bomb scares.  In view of the London bombings, we understand their concern....

That can't be done. Remember bomb scares are a side effect of worrying about bombs. <snp>

Exactly my point - we understand their concern because of random acts of violence like those that just occurred in London. I guess I should have said "try to insure that there aren't any more bomb scares", since we know that no one can guarantee it.

 

The bomb squad is here to keep us safe, not to ban all activities that might cause them to investigate a false alarm.  If they start taking away our freedomes in the name of no false alarms they are doing the wrong job.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that they were talking about banning activities. I was trying to communicate just the opposite. I don't want people to come to the wrong conclusion here:

 

The park superintendent we met with does not want to take away our freedoms - he explicitly said that geocaching is an appropriate activity in County Parks and that they do not want to discourage it.

 

He also said they need to avoid closing sections of the park and calling out the bomb squad each time a muggle finds a cache. As a park user, I appreciate their desire to keep the parks available to the public. As a taxpayer, I appreciate their desire not to squander the Sheriff's manpower and other resources.

 

Point is, these guys are not talking about trading security for freedom - they are working with us to find a way to foster both! We should give them credit for doing their job right!