A Request To New Hiders

[+baloo&bd]

This is either going to be accepted as helpful or flamed for whatever reason. Asbestos suit on.

 

In my area we have had a number of very new GC'rs hiding caches lately. This is great for those of us hungry for new caches, however some are really new. i.e. less than 10 hides.

 

Unfortunatly sometimes, due to inexperience, they leave caches that either quickly disappear, are not within guidelines or are otherwise frustrating fro whatever reason. They end up getting flamed quickly and, at least in a few cases, archive the caches and are never heard from as either a finder or hider again.

 

I just returned from a recent vacation taking me to seven states I cached in and realized that this is not restricted to my area.

 

That was the long way to this request: Get some experience under your belt before hiding caches, 20, 25 or 50. Get a flavor for the different types, techniques and issues out there. I really want as many hiders out there as possible and want to see your discouragment minimized.

[+Deliveryguy428]

This is either going to be accepted as helpful or flamed for whatever reason. Asbestos suit on.

 

In my area we have had a number of very new GC'rs hiding caches lately. This is great for those of us hungry for new caches, however some are really new. i.e. less than 10 hides.

 

Unfortunatly sometimes, due to inexperience, they leave caches that either quickly disappear, are not within guidelines or are otherwise frustrating fro whatever reason. They end up getting flamed quickly and, at least in a few cases, archive the caches and are never heard from as either a finder or hider again.

 

I just returned from a recent vacation taking me to seven states I cached in and realized that this is not restricted to my area.

 

That was the long way to this request: Get some experience under your belt before hiding caches, 20, 25 or 50. Get a flavor for the different types, techniques and issues out there. I really want as many hiders out there as possible and want to see your discouragment minimized.

Better advice for new cachers/hiders, get someone in your area to show you around, like a cache run so you can really experience the area and know what most hides are like and what types people are use to.

 

I wont flame you, cause I was once the crappy hider, but I have gotten a lot better and now kicking butt with my puzzle cache

[+Hoppingcrow]

Even though I had years of experience using a GPSr before I discovered geocaching, my first hide was done hastily and without proper preparation because I was anxious to get fully "in the game." It's not so poorly done that it's gone missing or been archived, and I *did* read the guidelines, so it's not in violation, but it's not a thing of beauty, by any stretch. Fortunately, it's in an area that doesn't see much cacher traffic, so I might re-do it.

 

Yes, baloo&bd, I'm with you on this one, even though I was guilty of it myself.

[+Kit Fox]

Cacher's Stats Are Only....1 Hidden?This topic was discussed already.

 

Some of the best caches I have ever found were from new cachers, inversely, the worst caches I have ever found were hidden by cachers with over 300 finds.

[+briansnat]

Cacher's Stats Are Only....1 Hidden?This topic was discussed already.

 

Some of the best caches I have ever found were from new cachers, inversely, the worst caches I have ever found were hidden by cachers with over 300 finds.

Agreed! If a newbie comes along and has grand ideas for caches, why spoil it by exposing him to bunch of guardrail micros?

 

I placed my first cache after only 1 find and the only thing I learned since was that I didn't have to put so much thought into the location, container and contents.

[+baloo&bd]

First, you're missing the point. If someone, new or old, wants to leave "lame" caches, great! Brings up the numbers for those trying to get their stats up.

 

However, if the cache was left 1. on private property 2. Buried 3. Exposed in open sight for muggles to remove (i.e. just laid out on top of a transformer behind a business or at the base of a statue) then these are issues that a newbie may or may not be aware of. All three (actually four) of these situations have happened recently.

 

It was a suggestion to new hiders, not a request for new guidelines or dicouragement from hiding new caches. It will, however, avoid "exposing <> to bunch of guardrail micros?" which is what many new hiders default to and others seem to like to complain about.

Edited July 18, 2005 by baloo&bd

[+Kit Fox]

First, you're missing the point. If someone, new or old, wants to leave "lame" caches, great! Brings up the numbers for those trying to get their stats up.

 

However, if the cache was left 1. on private property 2. Buried 3. Exposed in open sight for muggles to remove (i.e. just laid out on top of a transformer behind a business or at the base of a statue) then these are issues that a newbie may or may not be aware of. All three (actually four) of these situations have happened recently.

 

I think a better method is to contact the cachers placing said caches, rather than making a request in the forums. A SBA log is warranted if the cache is that much of a threat, or a violation of rules. Although I agree with the your disliking of this type of cache placement, as being an innapropriate, I doubt you will be able to change people's opinions on how they want to hide caches. Again the best method is to contact them, and let them know why this type of hide was a "bad idea."

 

I have emailed numerous new cachers, where there were flaws in their cache placement. The majority fix their mistakes, while thanking me for the help.

 

It was a suggestion to new hiders, not a request for new guidelines or dicouragement from hiding new caches. It will, however, avoid "exposing <> to bunch of guardrail micros?" which is what many new hiders default to and others seem to like to complain about.

 

A carefully written SBA log as to why this cache is dangerous to cachers (exposure to oncoming traffic) or done on govt. property, without permission, can be useful.

[+Team Perks]

I agree that it's prudent to hold off on hiding caches until a new cacher is confident that 1) they are fully comfortable using a GPS and averaging coordinates, and 2) they are certain they won't lose interest in a month and then let their hides decay into geo-litter. Other than that...well, it's a box under a bush. It ain't rocket science.

 

In my book, the only way to truly get experience in hiding caches is by hiding them. Hiding caches is basically a trial-and-error process; even the best ideas turn out to be impracticable. I've seen great caches and lousy caches from both new cachers as well as the seasoned pros. Some of my earlier caches were painfully lame by my own current standards. I learned from the feedback on my ideas and made sure I didn't make the same blunders again. Most of those caches are long gone, but I think my current caches are better because of it.

[+Miragee]

There is a new cache, by a new cacher, in this area and in their logs, many of the experienced caches have stated how the cache "probably won't last long there," or "needs some cammo."

 

The logs have been gentle, but also informative.

 

It wasn't in the worst place for a cache, but I sure didn't want to spend any time there, so I looked at the hint right away . . .

[+FourRiverRatz]

Just keep in mind that just because a newbie only has a "1" in their find box doesn't mean they are actually new to this. Many of you old time geocaching addicts take people out on various hunts and get us hooked...so we then go back and buy our own gps's. I now have 3 finds, but hid my first after 1 find of my own...BUT went out with my BIL before, and actually had my husband with me to pull up my co-ordinates to double check to make sure I am using the gps right when I did my hide. Just because we look like newbies, doesn't mean we really are.

[knowschad]

While I actually agree with the poster's stance, to show that there are exceptions, check out the logs for this one that I recently created, with only 18 finds under my belt:

 

The Tortoise And The Hare

 

However, I will say that in those 18 finds, there were some very clever caches and some rather poor ones, so at least I had enough experience to see the differences between good and bad.

[+deimos444]

As a newbie who only has a few caches found I find this discourse to be extremely valuable.

I actually have been waiting to really get a feel before putting anything out there.

[+Kiamichi Muskrat]

I can see the rationale behind asking someone to wait a bit, but you have to remember that some of us actually like hiding caches as much or a bit more than finding caches. Besides, I've seen plenty of VERY GOOD caches from newbies and REALLY SUCKY caches from oldies.

 

Take this one, for example: Twisted and Dying

 

What a great cache! The guy only had a couple of finds when he placed this very complex multi with some of the best camo I've ever seen.

 

But then again, I won't name names or caches, but I have found one or two within 100 miles of my home that were in trash strewn, used condom littered, stinky, fly infested river bottoms occupied by hobo camps. Those were placed by people with NEARLY 500 FINDS.

[+budd-rdc]

There was a similar discussion recently. Check "Hiding Caches Too Early!" thread also.

 

I think it's a reasonable request to ask people to get the feel for what the sport is all about before participating further. That includes reading the guidelines, studying things carefully, meeting other cachers (event caches), etc.

 

I fall in the "meeting other cachers" category, as I had encouragement from other cachers, including my brother.

[+sbell111]

If someone wants to hide a cache, he/she should hide one.

[+Renegade Knight]

I would not jade a newbies ideas by requiring them to find what everone else is hiding. Nor would I dampen their enthusiam by telling them to find some first.

 

Some questions though if you are going to make this a rule.

How many do they need to find first?

What if they have no caches in their area, can they place one then?

If they can why can't the guy in Chicago?

Do rural caches count for more than urban caches?

If they find under one account and hide under another, to they have to have finds on the other hiding account even though they have 5000 finds on the finding account?

Are we all going to be grandfathered when the rule kicks in so only newbies newer than the rule need to follow the rule?

What about someone with 200 finds who ever logged them, but now wants to place a cache?

Can we make exceptions if a review board all agrees it's a good cache?

[+Team Perks]

Can we make exceptions if a review board all agrees it's a good cache?

Hey RK, how many finds do you have to have before you can be on the review board?

[+rusty_tlc]

... They end up getting flamed quickly and, at least in a few cases, archive the caches and are never heard from as either a finder or hider again....

Sounds like the cachers in your area are a tough crowd.

Around here we post helpful hints and invite noobs to join our mail group.

 

Maybe your plea should be to the flamers asking them to be helpful and not alienate new comers?

 

As mentioned above cache notes, written in a kind manner, can correct guideline violations. Gentle persuasion can usually correct all else.

[+baloo&bd]

I got to tell ya, I made a suggestion to be helpful and it has all but been twisted around to something sinister. I thought this area of the forum was to try to help new cachers.

 

The only things I want to clarify before finishing my part in this discaussion that were mentioned in the posts are 1. No one asked for a rule 2. no one said there should be a "review board". 3. No one was telling anyone they couldn't hide, just suggesting a method that would make things easier for everyone involved. 4. Putting it in the logs only helpos that paticular cacher, not someone coming along. 5. No one ever said someone with no finds and 1 or more hides couldn't make "good" hides, just that a newbie (not someone with an alternate hiding ID) might want to consider getting a feel for things first.

 

As to my area being rough or alienating, you might want to read back through these posts.

 

Adding to my original suggestions to newbies: Stay out of the forums for a while.

[+sbell111]

Three things:

 

1) You're not a noob.

2) The idea was a bad one.

3) The better idea was for the cachers in your area to stop flaming noobs.

 

edit: Got to learn to count...

Edited July 19, 2005 by sbell111

[+GPS_David]

This is either going to be accepted as helpful or flamed for whatever reason. Asbestos suit on.

 

In my area we have had a number of very new GC'rs hiding caches lately. This is great for those of us hungry for new caches, however some are really new. i.e. less than 10 hides.

 

Unfortunatly sometimes, due to inexperience, they leave caches that either quickly disappear, are not within guidelines or are otherwise frustrating fro whatever reason. They end up getting flamed quickly and, at least in a few cases, archive the caches and are never heard from as either a finder or hider again.

 

I just returned from a recent vacation taking me to seven states I cached in and realized that this is not restricted to my area.

 

That was the long way to this request: Get some experience under your belt before hiding caches, 20, 25 or 50. Get a flavor for the different types, techniques and issues out there. I really want as many hiders out there as possible and want to see your discouragment minimized.

How many caches did you have under your belt before placing your first cache?

 

I created my first cache the day I signed up for Geocaching. Then I hid it around the time I found my first cache. It's a great location.

 

A better way to go would be to always look back at the caches you (meaning the reader) have placed. Have you placed a micro where a regular size cache should go? is your cache lame? can you improve upon it? gosh, does it need some maintainence? (I've seen plenty that have not been maintained)

 

The best of all, just have fun!

 

Dave

[+Packanack]

Hey, finally some common sense emerges. We all are new at some time or another. There are a lot of people who were very accomodating to a lot of questions I had about hiding, finding, even how the equipment worked. I remember someone explaining "slingshot effect" to me, I had no idea even though I experience it all the time. Suggestions about changing a hide and the like were graciously given. The style of advice was part of what made entree enjoyable, surely I've made mistakes but they were tolerated and quickly forgotten. So baloo, I kind of thought you were going a little overboard.. Asking new people to stay off the forums, does notthing to foster the activity.

 

---A Scout is Friendly is at the heart of scouting and is most certainly a noted characteristic of most cachers.-- He is also helpful, courteous and kind.

Edited July 19, 2005 by Packanack

[+deimos444]

Hey RK, how many finds do you have to have before you can be on the review board?

[+kschu]

Three things:

 

1)  You're not a noob.

2)  The idea was a bad one.

3)  The better idea was for the cachers in your area to stop flaming noobs.

1) No, Baloo is not a newbie. But I am and he has been very helpful to me as I am getting started.

 

2) The original post used the word "request". The words "require" and "rule" were brought up by someone else and were not in the original posting. From my point of view, the suggestion was filled with common sense and at least I was able to read it as advice and not as some "bad idea". The usefulness of any piece of advice depends greatly on those who recieve it.

 

3) I have not met nor experianced any cachers in this area who were any less than polite and helpful. However, some of the local hides have been very challenging to me as a newbie. sbell111, It seems that you are the one spewing flame and I can't understand why.

 

As I slowly add more finds to my log, I am getting a better feel for how I myself would describe or define a good hide. I've only logged a dozen finds so far, in the three weeks I have owned my GPSr. I have not even tried a Multi yet. So far I find Micros very discouraging. I just heard about an Event cache in our area, scheduled for tomorrow night. I expect I would find many more helpful and welcoming cachers there, if I did not have a previous commitment which conflicts with the event.

 

In that same three weeks, I have probably logged a half-dozen DNF. I believe at least one of those is MIA as it was hidden in a very public place, near a busy street corner and has very likely been poached by those who observed cachers at this spot. I have no idea if the cachers who hid those DNF were rookies or pros. Ask the question, why post a DNF entry? I don't do it to show off my inability to find something. I do it to provide feedback about something hard to find, a misleading clue or just to seek advice from those more experianced than I am.

 

I will most likely have 3 dozen finds in the log before I try to hide a cache. My choice, not a rule or requirement. I have made notes on several ideas for caches I might hide, but I won't put them out there until I see a few more examples and learn a bit more about what does and what does not work. No one had even suggested to me that I wait, till I came across this thread. It just seemed like common sense that I was able to see on my own.

 

Baloo, I think it is good for newbies to get into the forums. But like hiding caches, one needs to learn the "lay of the land" before posting. Those who share their experiance with those who are smart enough to try to learn from it are what makes forums and communities like this worth participating in.

 

In forums, the adage would read "if you don't have something constructive to contribute, don't post anything at all'.

[+Team Perks]

In all of the time on these forums, I don't think I've seen very many "first posts" as thoughtfully composed as yours, Kschu. I already like your attitude and the consideration you've given to gaining a better "lay of the land" (as you state) before going off and hiding your own caches is commendable. Welcome to the game...Something tells me you're going to make one fine cacher.

 

Sbell111: You are correct; the experienced cachers shouldn't be flaming the noobs. A little tact can go quite a ways.

 

That said, I agree with Baloo that cachers should be sure they are adequately experienced before hiding caches. I personally have no complaints with what the OP said, as he said it. I would also strongly argue that only each cacher will know when they have sufficient experience--it might be 1 find for some, and it might be 100 finds for others. Do it when you're good and ready. Not an unreasonable thing to ask.

[+Sevateem]

We are in up-state NY. Last we took a caching trip down to Penna. There is a cache hider down there that has the "BEST" hides we have done. Can't call him a cacher, as he has only 4 finds last time I looked. And has at least 8-9 hides. His caches are very well thought out and not easy. They take a person to very interesting places well off the beaten trail. Others that have done them agree with me.

If there was a set number of finds to be meant before placing a hide, we all would have lost out.

[+Sevateem]

We are in up-state NY. Last year we took a caching trip down to Penna. There is a cache hider down there that has the "BEST" hides we have done. Can't call him a cacher, as he has only 4 finds last time I looked. And has at least 8-9 hides. His caches are very well thought out and not easy. They take a person to very interesting places well off the beaten trail. Others that have done them agree with me.

If there was a set number of finds to be meant before placing a hide, we all would have lost out.

[+Kai Team]

...In my book, the only way to truly get experience in hiding caches is by hiding them.  Hiding caches is basically a trial-and-error process; even the best ideas turn out to be impracticable...I learned from the feedback on my ideas and made sure I didn't make the same blunders again. 

Exactly. Although experience finding caches will give you a sense of the possibilities and what you enjoy finding, it doesn't guarantee better hides. Experience in hiding caches is a better teacher when it comes to learning how to hide caches!

 

My advice to new cachers is:

• Put some thought into your first cache - location, container, type, etc. Think about what people enjoy about caching - a nice hike, a clever hide, good trade items, etc.
  
• Talk to people in your area that have what are generally considered to be quality caches (you can tell from reading the online logs). Most cachers are happy to share their experience and help out a new cacher - you can shorten the learning curve by learning from their experience.
  
• Whenever you feel you're ready to start hiding caches, hide one or two and wait for feedback before hiding any more (i.e. don't hide 50 caches in the first three months, as one person in our area did)
  
• Consider the feedback you get, learn from it, and act on it (both in changing or archiving what turn out to be poor hides and in hiding new caches). As Team Perks said, even the best ideas sometimes don't work out - it's a learning experience, not a failure.
  

By hiding one or two caches, you'll gain experience on how much maintenance is required for different cache types, containers and locations, and what others in your area appreciate (as the real estate agents like to say, think location, location, location).

 

You'll also gain a better sense of what you're willing to invest in maintaining your caches (how far you're willing to travel, how much time you're willing or able to invest, and what your frustration tolerance is for caches that are muggled by people or damaged by nature). No one can tell you what your tolerance will be - you have to learn by experience.

 

The only way to learn is to try, but as with anything else, it's best to start off slow where mistakes are not as much hassle, for you or your fellow cacher!

Edited July 21, 2005 by Kai Team

[+Thot]

The cache with clearly the most activity in my area was placed about 16 months. It was my first regular cache find. Several months after the person placed the cache he only had 9 finds. I don't know how many he had when he placed the cache. I wouldn't rate it as particularly interesting or fun to find, but it has survived all this time and has lots of activity. I put TBs in it that I want to get started in a hurry.

[Tahosa and Sons]

I'm an old goat that has spent more time in the woods than most of these here yunguns ever had. So I find 5 lame micros, 5 WALMART Drive & Bags and I should now have the knowledge to hide a cache, Hell I don't t think so. hiding good caches is a lot easier than all the HTML stuff that makes the page looks purdy.

 

I hid my first cacbe before I even found one and have worked my way up to this Sweet One even though my finds are only 201. I can still hide them where they even are hard or those with over 1,000 finds to bag a smiley. And I have new one on the boards that will be another tough one.

[+Renegade Knight]

...2) The original post used the word "request".  The words "require" and "rule" were brought up by someone else and were not in the original posting.  From my point of view, the suggestion was filled with common sense and at least I was able to read it as advice and not as some "bad idea".  The usefulness of any piece of advice depends greatly on those who recieve it.  ...

The original post even as a request had within it a desire for compliance. Why make a request otherwise? My post was to point out the complexity of such a seemingly simple request.

 

As it happens I don't think this should even exist as a request, voluntary rule, guideline or suggestion. I do think it's a bad idea.

 

Cache owners make this game. Encourage new ones, give them advice when asked, when tempted to slam a lame cache change the log to a constructive one that points out the problem. There are a lot of ways to guide newbies rather a blanket suggestion that covers all cases. Specific advice can be taylored to the cache issue. A lot of issues are not as cut and dry as some would like.

 

Your last two sentances in your larger post fit both sides of this debate. The OP took some things personally that were not personal. That's one lesson you have to learn in the forums. It can be hard to communicate as it's intended when you cant read the body language and hear the tone of voice.

Edited July 21, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+AtoZ]

Cacher's Stats Are Only....1 Hidden?This topic was discussed already.

 

Some of the best caches I have ever found were from new cachers, inversely, the worst caches I have ever found were hidden by cachers with over 300 finds.

Agreed! If a newbie comes along and has grand ideas for caches, why spoil it by exposing him to bunch of guardrail micros?

 

I placed my first cache after only 1 find and the only thing I learned since was that I didn't have to put so much thought into the location, container and contents.

I agree as well. It doesnt matter the number of finds it depends upon the desire to make a good cache. Some folks just want to hide a cache without giveing it any thought and that is what makes a LAME cache.

cheers

[+hiker49]

All right, I might get yelled at for doing this, but I hid my first cache with a non-geocaching, I'd say almost geomuggle friend, who had no geocaching expierience until I introduced him to the sport and is still kinda lame at it (well, I'm sorry, but he stays home and refuses to go geocaching with me because of the need to play violent computer games) when I had no finds. That's right. 0, zilch, nothing. Well, that was partly because I was anxtious to get into the sport and decided to hide first because I couldn't wait till the next day to go geocaching (which by was my first find.) I took careful time to plan the cache that day and make a suitable container. We then took time to hide it. It has a dificulty and terrain of 1 and it is five feet from the nearest parking and road, so one might say it slightly bends the guideline of trying to hide caches away from roads and other places that the public may intercept them, but we did this on purpose. The cache is desquised as a peice of trash in an area where no trash get's picked up, although we go down there when we can and pick up as much as we can. The public doesn't realize it isn't a peice of trash they are to lazy to pick up and throw away, and the only problem we have ever had with it is we typed in the coordintates wrong on geocaching.com, (we had sent people to the other side of town in the middle of an active rifle range, thankfully they had enough sence not to enter) but we fixed that typo and there hasn't been a problem since (although some geocachers have relocated it for us multiple times as they thought it was to easy, we had to post a note in the cache and on geocaching.com that we didn't want it moved, it was supposed to be easy.) We have had some people thank us for and easy cache and some people emailing us asking why it was so easy and saying it wasn't camoflauged enough, but we explain it to them and then they accept it. I think that if you think there is a problem with the cache, you should contact the owner through geocaching.com and ask them about it, because they might realize there mistake and change it, or they might just leave the cache how it is because that is there cache and they might want it to be hidden in the exact way it is. I would also like to say not to you but to all cachers on this website to please follow the guideline never to move a cache! We have had our caches better hidden for us and we do not appreciate it, nor do I think any of the other hiders who design some of there caches for a 5-minute find appreciate it. We actually had to spend half and hour looking for our own cache once!