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EraSeek

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This thread is not pointed at any cache or cache owner! Really! I am posting it because has always bothered me and I want everyone locally to know where the problem lies.

 

First this: ~Posted by Jeremy (founder of Groundspeak, and Geocaching.com) "It's a silly rule. Travel bugs are meant to travel. Adding a restriction like trading them out doesn't make sense."

 

I wholly and completely agree with this statement! I have TB's. I have a TB hotel. On each of those I have a red-letter statement that no trade is needed for travel bugs. Their purpose is to move. Yet, for the most part I have always had 1, 2 or 3 bugs residing in my cache. See, you don't need to set restrictive rules to have such a cache.

 

When I visit a TB Hotel, I am in a quandary! I don't like seeing TB's locked up. Yet I don't want to take a TB and disrespect the cache. I don't want to trade TB's because it will just imprison another bug and encourage restrictive hotels. So I log only.

 

By having a restrictive HOTEL the cache owner is assuming ownership of bugs that are not his, as well as restricting the movement of the bugs. All bad policy.

 

So I want all of you to tell me what I should do. Log only? Avoid these caches? Personally I am to a point where I want to treat these as any other cache with a TB in it; grab and move the bug without trade or guilt. Mind you I never remove more than one bug from any cache. Hoarding is uncool to me.

 

So what say you? Will I lose friends with this policy? Can I encourage others to use the same free-flow rules as I use on my cache? Am I in a fuss over nothing?

 

I'll post a link to mine: What a Wonderful World!

 

An example of one of my TB pages: Blue Highways

Edited by EraSeek
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TB hotels have their place, but I'm in agreement it shouldn't be restrictive.

 

That being said, I've always been a strong advocate for the cache owner to be able to play the game their way in order for a FIND to be logged. It doesn't mean the finder has to seek it out... or... if they don't care to follow the restrictive rules, don't log the find as a FOUND IT if they choose to log it at all. Chaos? Yes, to a small extent. But freedom to play the game as you choose within the broad guidelines as provided by the listing service allows both the hider and seeker to be creative.

 

How do I get past that little quandary of chaos? I choose to take the high road. It's a consistent and known element about me. I visited only one TB Hotel only to say that I did. Personally, I wasn't as thrilled about it as I thought I would be. I'll probably never visit another one. I like discovering a TB in a standard cache.

 

Do what is right by you and be consistent.

Edited by TotemLake
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The problem TL is that these TB's DO NOT belong to the cache owner! That is why I posted on my TB's "no trade".

 

To be consistant, I would move the bug as in any other case, without trade!

 

Let me make an additional suggestion. I saw another tb hotel, wihout restrictions, that is also a clean-up center. In the hotel he has things for repair such as new zip-lock bags, nylon ties for attacting the tags and such. I plan on doing that with mine as well. Perhaps I can encouage other hotels to do this too.

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There have been many a thread pondering this same question. My thoughts are the CACHE owner cannot restrict the movement of TBs. If I have TB's to trade I will, but if there is a bug that I can help on it's way I will. On my recent vacation I had a few bugs that I could drop anywhere, but many had a goal that I was moving them too/toward, so I couldn't 'trade' them for others that I saw that I could also 'help' when passing by.

 

So if you see a TB that you can help, do so - the TB owner set a goal for it (and to me that trumps a cache owner's desire to have a 'full house') and I haven't yet seen one that wants to sit in a cache for the rest of it's days.

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Those are not TB Hotels! A Hotel allows it's guests to leave when ever they want! Sounds more like a TB Prison to me!

 

I have a TB hotel at Smokey Point that seems to get a lot of traffic

 

I have this statement on the cache page:

 

If you take a Travel Bug, Please try to leave one. However, if you can help a bug on it's journey, it's OK to just stop by and pick up one without leaving one. And of course it's OK just to drop one off without taking another one.

 

Please do not take ALL the travel bugs. It's OK to take more than one if you can genuinely help them toward fulfilling their goal, but try to let everyone have a chance to participate.

 

Unless the bug's goal is attached, please try to remember write it's goal in the log book so people can decide which bug to take.

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i agree with right wing the only thing i do/wish people to agree with is yes take one dont leave one take 4 leave 1 i dont care just if its a tb hotel/motel/condo whatever make sure their is always 1 if only one is left dont take it unless your going to trade..stupid rl in any hotel/motel etc if theirs not at least a few "people" in their at any given time it wouldnt last and it would close so as long as you have 1 or 2 "people" in your hotel..just my kinda thinking

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Well, you know, mine has gone empty every now and then. It is empty right now. But people have been very kind in dropping bugs off, even revisiting to pick one up or drop one. I have no problem with that or an empty cache. I'm always impressed with people participating in the idea... and it works.

 

RWW, recall the song Hotel California? You can always get in but you can never leave. :D Kinda like some TB hotels. Yes, they are prisons.

 

Consider the the lilies of the field. No worries. Now consider the weeds. The less attractive ones (tb's). They don't move. Problems is the good looking ones often end up as someones prize down the road.

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The problem TL is that these TB's DO NOT belong to the cache owner! That is why I posted on my TB's "no trade".

 

To be consistant, I would move the bug as in any other case, without trade!

 

Let me make an additional suggestion. I saw another tb hotel, wihout restrictions, that is also a clean-up center. In the hotel he has things for repair such as new zip-lock bags, nylon ties for attacting the tags and such. I plan on doing that with mine as well. Perhaps I can encouage other hotels to do this too.

I thought I have known TB Hotels go up where the original TB's were completely owned by the cache owner. I may be mistaken. But in that case... what then? You can't really sit down with one hard set rule and expect it to cover all contingencies. You have to build in exceptions as we all know there will always be an exception to the rule. This is why these debates rage on over and over again.

 

I have no qualms in either direction. I merely gave my perception to it which is why I say, do what is right by you.

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Yes, I am not one for making more and more rules. Yes, there are always exceptions.

 

Say a guy fills his TB hotel with his own TB's. I think that is how I started mine. Off into the world they go.... Does that give me the right of ownership ( or rather dictatorship) to any new ones that show up?

 

For the time being I may "log Only" at TB hotels just so I don't tick anyone off, but forgive me if I post a NOTE with my log only. I would really like to see things change in this area!

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Technically it gives you the right to control what you own. Beyond that... it's beyond even my awesome powers. :D You can't control what isn't in your hands. It's all about ethics.

 

My answer is evasive because for me to say otherwise would also be for me to say the cache owner doesn't have the right to be creative which would go against every statement I have made through these past 2 years.

 

So... in order for restrictive hotels to not be created, the reviewers need to stop approving them. As long as they are approved, there is no guideline to keep the TB's from being restricted.

Edited by TotemLake
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My two cents worth..........

 

Bugs should move, if they sit too long in one cache they should be pulled out by ANYONE who can move them along. We have taken bugs out of our Grave Robber cache and put them in other caches just to get them moving. (We'll go long streatches with no finds on GR due to it being so old and in a residential neighborhood)

 

Any cache with a travel bug in it is a 'Travel Bug Hotel' for the duration of that bugs stay. The idea of a 'Travel Bug Hotel' is based in the idea that this particular cache is safer from muggles than a normal cache. They also tend to be located in areas that are easy to get to while traveling.

 

We created our travel bug hotel with these two things in mind. The cache is with in 10 minutes of several major freeways and since it is in our yard it's pretty safe. It is currently bug free, but that's okay. We have no restrictions on dropping or taking bug. I don't like TB hotels with restrictions, but a polite request to only take if you can help the bug to its goal isn't bad.

Edited by Wander Lost
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I don't know if this response belongs in this thread, but I have been frustrated at geocoins and/or "regular" TB's that have gone "missing", presumably because they are attractive as collector items or are just "cute". Most recently was a USA Geocoin where all we found was a Lincoln penny attached to the Goal Sheet (along with a handwritten tracking number); earlier this year, a WA State coin we placed in EA WA appears to have been taken with no trace whatsoever. Do folks think these coins are for the taking or do they know better, but take anyway? Makes me sad to think that some geocachers may not have the same integrity level as the folks we've met on the trail.

 

We've also had at least three or four "regular" TB's that went missing after we placed them, and I'm guessing it was because they were cute/interesting (no indications of general cache plunder). I can see why some geocachers have shied away from picking up TB's at all, feeling the responsibility...

 

P.S. If anyone new to the forums is interested in a recent experience we had with TB Hotels, here is the thread (yikes!). http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=97008

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Do folks think these coins are for the taking or do they know better, but take anyway?

 

This is a rathole, but to answer your question... It has been stated many times geocoins are indeed considered collectibles. Even owners of trackable coins don't put much stock in them staying in circulation for very long. Unfortunately, this is a long standing "I don't mind" mindset, you'll be hard pressed to change it.

 

Fwiw, I'm not arguing the mission of the TB's are to be moved from cache to cache. I'm debating the fact there is no guideline and no practice to prohibit them from being restricted by individual cache rules. This is where the change has to happen; at the top level and enforced at the reviewer level. What each individual does with their cache hotel is just that... indvidual. There is no cohesive "Thou shalt not create restrictive rules on TB's." Thus, the individual creativity at producing that type of cache was allowable by default.

 

That being said, I agree if there is to be a new "guideline" produced, this issue screams for it. That doesn't stop the grandfathered hotels from continuing to exist. The only thing you'll be able to do there, is play renegade and take them regardless of the cache rules and create a groundswelling grass roots support to avoid taking the TB's to such hotels. (That's the "Do what's right by you" thing.)

 

The discouragement to use those hotels will make them fold by lack of activity with exception to rebel support to take the bugs out anyway. Take all of the bugs at one time each time a rebel visits. Do it by sock puppet if you want to escape the directed wrath.

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I have a TB stop up by Marysville...Cummings Lake (really should be pond...IMW keeps kiddng me about that, but that's what the map said). Any rate, I don't care how you go about with the bugs. They need moving. Common courtesy is to take one or two only, but I don't explicity state that. I figure it's up to the cacher to decide. If going on a trip and you can help all the bugs, by all means, take 'em all, but only if you can help them for sure.

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I heard of one cache that requires there always be 10 in the cache. Dear Totem Lake..., why would you consider such a thing to fall within the realm of creativity?

Even pornographic art falls under creativity as well as freedom of speech. Take that one to the courts. Just because you don't view it as creative doesn't make it so. Keep an open perspective to the issue and don't make me the bad guy just because I point it out.

 

==edited for grammer==

Edited by TotemLake
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Yes, well taken.

I'd rather do whatever in the open and honestly than as a sock puppet.

Agreed. Approval/disapproval may be the way to go, or perhaps grassroots peer-pressure. Before the pressure thing I'd rather change minds. That's why I have posted this. To get it out there.

 

Dear Travel Bug Hotel Owners. The bugs are not yours. KEEP YOUR HOTELS BUT PLEASE REMOVE TRADE RESTICTIONS. The bugs will be happier for it. Thanks you.

 

As for their disappeance, something I hate to see. But yet I see Travel Bugs as children. You ready them for the world, you set them on their coarse, and you release them with all faith to make their way in the world. But for your hope and prayers, and a little nudging from a distance, your job is done.

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I heard of one cache that requires there always be 10 in the cache. Dear Totem Lake..., why would you consider such a thing to fall within the realm of creativity?

Even pornographic art falls under creativity as well as freedom of speech. Take that one to the courts. Just because you don't view it as creative doesn't make it so. Keep an open perspective to the issue and don't make me the bad guy just because I point it out.

 

==edited for grammer==

No. Don't get me wrong. Your not a bad guy. We are just discussing an issue... trying to find the best route to go. You've made some good arguements.

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Perhaps that's it. Maybe we should all just use this standard log on any hotel with trade restrictions :

 

 

"Dear Travel Bug Hotel Owners. Not to be rude but, the bugs are not yours. KEEP YOUR HOTELS BUT PLEASE REMOVE TRADE RESTICTIONS. The bugs will be happier for it. Thank you. (If they are yours never mind :blink: )"

Took whatever, left whatever...

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Somebody earlier in this thread compared TB Hotels to actual hotels. Then someone mentioned that trade restrictions are bad, but that 1 TB should be left in the hotel at all times.

 

Guest: Good morning, I'd like to check out of room 215.

Clerk: I am sorry sir, all the other guests have already checked out. Please return to your room. Come back after 4:00pm. We usually get a few guests checking in about then. Please enjoy your (extended) stay.

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Perhaps that's it. Maybe we should all just use this standard log on any hotel with trade restrictions :

 

 

"Dear Travel Bug Hotel Owners. Not to be rude but, the bugs are not yours. KEEP YOUR HOTELS BUT PLEASE REMOVE TRADE RESTICTIONS. The bugs will be happier for it. Thank you. (If they are yours never mind :blink: )"

Took whatever, left whatever...

Now I have a reason to go to the hotels. ;)

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That TB is a good start, and yes the other thread does cover it but it is mostly argumentative. I did notice I apparently echoed a similar opinion posted just a few days before and nobody there paid much attention to it.

 

The intent of our local discussion here is not so much to argue about it, but to collectively appraise the issue on both sides and then approach with an appropriate behavior change action. That is, find how the problem was allowed to become (which I think we did), then decide on an appropriate action that harmonizes with the grass roots. With that groundswelling to act as a mindset support, lobby to add a guideline to prevent future restrictive hotels to be put up so the reviewers have something to point at by way of that guideline and existing support.

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Just like these funny little bits and bites that make themselves appear to be human smiley faces  ;)  ...weird huh? (They're not real you know)

Tell me your pulling my leg. Please. Next thing you're going to tell me is Santa Claus isn't real either. :rolleyes:

"Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus"

 

For the rest resort to google...

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I treat a "TB Hotel" like any other cache. If the owner doesn't want anything but TBs left in them, I won't leave anything ELSE. That's a part of a wish I can respect.

 

I might leave a TB if I happen to have one with me.

 

One thing that hasn't been said here yet is that while caches might be TB prisons, cachers who hold on to more TBs than they can move along are just as bad - a home can be a TB prison, too.

 

Therefore, when taking TBs from a TB hotel, I won't let the whims of the cache owner dictate to me how many I can take, but I will judge on the basis of what is best for the TB. If this is my last cache for the week, I might take just 1. If I am just leaving for a long weekend of caching, I might take any number, and sprinkle them around, to get them moving.

 

Mt two cents.

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This issue is completely covered in this thread.

 

The thing to do is "steal" the cool TB idea that got spawned from it, make several of your own version, keep them handy, and launch them at restrictive TB hotels to free the other bugs. Here's a pic of the bug in question:

 

67f85eaa-9eec-4751-bfba-3e4da4f6c330.jpg

 

Cool, eh? :rolleyes:

Wish I'd thought of it!

Wonderful! I love it.

 

The TB belongs to the TB owner. TB hotels with "restrictions" should be passed by or the rules should be ignored.

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I started my Lebanon Travel Bug Rest Stop as a motel with a 1-for-1 trade rule, but quickly saw the light and modified it to a "Rest Stop" theme. Who visits a rest stop for more than a few minutes or hours? I also replaced the 1-for-1 statement with this:

 

Feel free to take and/or leave as many or as few Travel Bugs as you wish, but please trade only trackable items, and be considerate of the next cacher who will be disappointed to discover that the person before them left them with nothing.

 

Lastly, I make frequent maintenance visits and free bugs that have attempted a long-term infestation. These changes have prompted a lot of friendly comments from cachers logging their finds, and seems to work well for this cache.

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That seems to make sense. I like the idea of rest stop vs hotel. On mine I also ask that no other items be left other than travelers or sig items. I don't think anyone is rotten for having restrictions... I just think, like you, they need to come to realize it is possible to keep them up and running without the restrictions. Best way to do that is to make them good policy centers. I like the idea one guy had to also make them repair/maitanence centers. That's what I want to do with mine next time I go by it.

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All of this TB hotel restriction controversy seems like much ado about nothing to me! It's all about location, location, location. If a TB hotel needs restrictions to keep bugs in residence, then maybe it isn't a good location to be designated as a hotel in the first place.

 

All that is needed to keep a TB hotel up and running without restrictions, is to place it in a convenient location that is accessible to a lot of travelers. My Tukwila Pond cache functions as a TB hotel even though it is not designated as one. It is close to the airport, I-5 and 405, and several hotels. It is visited by cachers almost every day, and TBs are constantly moving in and out. Sometimes TBs get taken, sometimes they're left and sometimes they're swapped. Sometimes there are no bugs in there at all, but most of the time there's at least one. It doesn't matter. If a TB hotel is in a good convenient location, it doesn't need restrictions to keep the bug activity up.

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All of this TB hotel restriction controversy seems like much ado about nothing to me!  It's all about location, location, location.  If a TB hotel needs restrictions to keep bugs in residence, then maybe it isn't a good location to be designated as a hotel in the first place. 

 

All that is needed to keep a TB hotel up and running without restrictions, is to place it in a convenient location that is accessible to a lot of travelers.  My Tukwila Pond cache functions as a TB hotel even though it is not designated as one.  It is close to the airport, I-5 and 405, and several hotels.  It is visited by cachers almost every day, and TBs are constantly moving in and out.  Sometimes TBs get taken, sometimes they're left and sometimes they're swapped.  Sometimes there are no bugs in there at all, but most of the time there's at least one.  It doesn't matter.  If a TB hotel is in a good convenient location, it doesn't need restrictions to keep the bug activity up.

There you go. That's how to view it.

 

Now if we can get the wardens to quit thinking there are doing a service by limiting bug travel, this topic will never come up again.

Oh, I forgot to mention that once we are done with Hotel restrictions we can start in on the cachers who place caches purposely to restrict travel aka Prisons.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Oh, I forgot to mention that once we are done with Hotel restrictions we can start in on the cachers who place caches purposely to restrict travel aka Prisons.

:D;):D:DB);):rolleyes::D

Yes Virginia, there are really people who create level 5 caches and harvest bugs from other caches against their goals and place them in their cache just so someone has to go rescue them.

 

Isn't that just a blast-o-fun?

 

Of course all cachers think it's fun and it has nothing to do with an ego trip even though the cache owners come here to report how much everyone loves thier prison.

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I guess no matter how one person views a cache, someone can always view the same as a prison type cache.

 

The beauty and the curse of this game is it freely allows people to play the game their way.

 

No matter how you try to draw the line in the sand, you will have somebody unhappy with the cache, the rules of the cache, or the contents of the cache.

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Oh, I forgot to mention that once we are done with Hotel restrictions we can start in on the cachers who place caches purposely to restrict travel aka Prisons.

;)B):rolleyes:;):D:D:D:D

Yes Virginia, there are really people who create level 5 caches and harvest bugs from other caches against their goals and place them in their cache just so someone has to go rescue them.

 

Isn't that just a blast-o-fun?

 

Of course all cachers think it's fun and it has nothing to do with an ego trip even though the cache owners come here to report how much everyone loves thier prison.

My previous post was total confusion on what that sentence said/meant. I'm still not real clear, but it sounds like you don't think high rated caches should have bugs in them because they aren't found very often. Maybe the bugs encourage people to try them. I have one 5* cache (currently disabled) that is so rated for the distance and number micro, not because it is that hard to find. Some people are put off by a high rating, but a bug they want (can you say "jeep") will get them to work it. But that's another topic all together, let's leave that for later.

Edited by The Jester
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.....it sounds like you don't think high rated caches should have bugs in them because they aren't found very often.

Nope, not saying that at all. A TB can actually prompt people to visit a remote cache.

 

I'm talking about harvesting a 'large' number of bugs, moving them against their goals, placing them in a remote location, and doing this on a continual basis.

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Listen. I don't hate TB hotels or their owners. I don't want raids on them because they have restictions. I'm just not sure how to honor the restrictions without violating the bug owner's rights and the purposes of the bugs as not trade items..

 

I just don't think you have any right to say any bug that doesn't belong to you shouldn't be removed unless another is put in its place.

 

So this is what it boils down to for me:

Trying to change the concept of TB hotels as being in need of trade restictions to exist. Till then I'll just log a nice find note only on them that have restrictions.

 

Someone pointed me to a TB cache that moves any old bugs out after 14 days. Sounds like a good plan. It also asks not to empty it out completely. I don't have a problem with that.

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