Garmin "x" Series Lithium Battery Problem!

[Budbrew]

If anyone is experiencing problems with lithium batteries with the "x" series units please post your symptoms here on this message board. I am interested to see just how many people are having this problem.

 

Problem: When turning on Garmin "x" series unit with lithium batteries the unit beeps like normal, displays welcome screen, and then screen fizzles out untill unit shuts down.

 

Battery: Energizer E2 Lithium AA

Edited January 29, 2006 by Budbrew

[+Rotareneg]

Yep, same problem with my 60Cx, same batteries too.

[+bhorocks]

i'm using canon 2300 mah batts and they work great.

[+Klatch]

I read in a newsgroup that there is a diagnostic page available that will tell you the shutdown is due to high voltage. I don't have an "x" model or use lithium batteries, just repeating what I read. I AM able to access the diagnostic page on my 76CS the same way that was described for the 60CSX:

While on the Trip Computer page, toggle up, right, down, and left. The "in" button will access further screens.

 

Edit to correct a typo.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Klatch

[Budbrew]

I realize that both alkalines and nimh rechargeables both work, but Garmin notes in the manual that lithiums are fine. The diagnotic page will show high battery for every time it fails to power up due to lithium output.

[+Sputnik 57]

From the "Trip Computer page" press up, right down and left, on the rocker key and this page appears:

 

 

Did you change your battery profile to Lithium? On non-x units all it impacts is your power left meter, but I would give it a try.

[+weakfish]

From the "Trip Computer page" press up, right down and left, on the rocker key and this page appears:

 

 

Did you change your battery profile to Lithium? On non-x units all it impacts is your power left meter, but I would give it a try.

The X series don't have an option for Lithium... Only Alkaline and NiMH.

Talk about an oversight!?!?!

[+bhorocks]

killer i never knew this page existed! how many other hidden pages are there??

[Budbrew]

I told garmin that I found that on my diagnostic screen it was showing a high battery message, so maybe it is something they can fix with future firmware. The device may be oversensitive to slightly higher voltage output which needs to be adjusted. We'll see what garmin says since they seem to be clueless about this matter.

[Hertzog]

Hi, I'm the one who posted the lithium problem message on the Yahoo group; would have responded here earlier, but it took me a while to get registered here and logged in!

 

I originally saw Rotareneg's post on sci.geo.satellite-nav and confirmed I had the same problem. After reviewing the pertinent discussions on this forum I decided to post to the Yahoo 60C_CS group. I originally thought there were more people reporting the problem, but after reviewing the earlier discussions and the subsequent discussions it only looks like 3 people are reporting the problem (Budbrew, Rotareneg and me). Hopefully its something they can correct with a firmware update (but mine is going back anyway, due to some damage to the USB connector).

 

I posted a message to Garmin support last night on the problem; so far no response.

 

By the way, the 60CS doesn't have a Lithium setting either. My old Vista has Lithium and NiCad settings, but they apparently dropped both when going to the 60/76 models.

 

John

[+Rotareneg]

Been talking to Garmin about it, they had me try running the batteries for a little while in another device (I used my Legend) first and it worked fine. The Energizer E2 Lithium spec sheet discharge curves all start at 1.6v which should be fine in the 60Cx, but in reality they start at near 1.78v and need to be discharged slightly to get them down to their rated voltage. That was just something they had me check as an experiment, they're working on the problem now. Hopefully it's something that can be fixed with a firmware update.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Rotareneg

[Budbrew]

It's funny that garmin suggested that too you, because I suggested that to garmin. Here is the following email that I sent to Garmin in which they acknowledge the problem:

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International,

 

That matches up to the testing we did here after receiving your email. We

purchased some of these batteries and tested them with a voltage meter. Out

of the package, they show 1.7+ volts. However, if we placed them in another

device that could support the battery, it drained to a 1.5+ range that would

work in our device.

 

Unfortunately, although they show on the package 1.5v, they actually put out

more voltage than that.

 

If you need additional assistance, please call our 800-800-1020 line during

our regular business hours of 8:00 to 5:00 Central Time, Monday through

Friday. Any one of our Technical Support staff would be happy to help you

further.

 

With Best Regards,

Kristi Jamison

Garmin International

Senior Product Support Specialist

800-800-1020

913-397-8200

913-440-5488 (fax)

http://www.garmin.com/ <http://www.garmin.com/>

 

If replying to this message, Please include all correspondence.

AOL Users, Please select all text before clicking reply to ensure the

original text is included in your reply.

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: [mailto:]

Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:07 PM

To: techsupp@garmin.com

Subject: Re: Energizer E2 Lithium Problem!

 

I have been using Energizer Lithium E2 Batteries. The only way I can

get my unit to run off of these batteries is by putting them in another

device running them for about 1 min or 2, and then pop them into my

GPS. Otherwise if I put them in my GPS brand new out of the package the

voltage must be too high that it causes my GPS screen to fizzle out

when I power it on.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International,

 

I would be happy to help you with this. What brand of Lithium

batteries are

you using?

 

Most Lithium batteries range from 2.8v to 4.2v each. The Energizer E2

Lithium battery is the only one on the market with a 1.5v. Since your

60csx

unit can only take a maximum of 3.2v, with 2 batteries installed you

would

exceed this limitation with any other brand.

 

If you need additional assistance, please call our 800-800-1020 line

during

our regular business hours of 8:00 to 5:00 Central Time, Monday through

Friday. Any one of our Technical Support staff would be happy to help

you

further.

 

With Best Regards,

Kristi Jamison

Garmin International

Senior Product Support Specialist

800-800-1020

913-397-8200

913-440-5488 (fax)

http://www.garmin.com/ <http://www.garmin.com/>

 

If replying to this message, Please include all correspondence.

AOL Users, Please select all text before clicking reply to ensure the

original text is included in your reply.

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: [mailto:]

Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:32 AM

To: Garmin Technical Support

Subject: Tech support request for GPSMAP 60CSx

 

Contact Information:

First Name:

Last Name:

Address:

City, State, Zip: , ,

Country: United States

Phone:

E-Mail:

Product: GPSMAP 60CSx

Serial Number:

Software Version: 2.5

 

Problem:

Hi,

 

This is in response to my previous emails related to lithium battery

problems. I located the diagnotic page on my 60CSx and noticed the

message

High Battery, which must be referring to the fact that the lithium

batteries

are putting out too high a voltage to the unit. Apparently there are

reports

of other consumers experiencing the same problem that I have been

experiencing with both the 60cx and 60csx units. Is this something that

could be fixed in a firmware update? Also, does the unit trip itself to

protect from frying the circuitry due to this higher voltage put out

from

lithium batteries.

 

Sincerely,

Budbrew

 

Request emailed to mobile@garmin.com

 

-------------------------

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for

the sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended

recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution

or use of this e-mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have

received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender and delete all

copies.

Thank you for your cooperation

[Budbrew]

To be honest I would bet there are alot more people out there that have this problem and don't even realize it. First off for the problem to occur you need to have purchase brand new lithiums from the store, not just a pair sitting around the house. I'd bet that 8 out of 10 who own an "x" series unit would experience the same problem if they went to the store, and bought a brand new set of Energizer E2 Lithium batteries. See if I run a new pair in another device for just 30 sec it will allow the lithiums to work fine in my GPS, but if I put them in right out of the package this problem occurs.

[+GeckoGeek]

See if I run a new pair in another device for just 30 sec it will allow the lithiums to work fine in my GPS, but if I put them in right out of the package this problem occurs.

That's fine for when you pop the new set in, but will that problem return? What happens if you pull them back out and let them "recover" for a few days? Or simply leave the unit off until the next weekend? Or put the GPS on a live USB port for awhile (since there seems to be talk of it charging)?

 

Seems like there's a potential for having this problem return even before you get to a new set.

[Budbrew]

The key is not to use lithiums untill Garmin fixes this issue through a firmware update. This can be fixed through firmware, and whether or not they choose to address this issue is up to them I guess. I don't plan on using lithiums much anyways. I just purchase Nimh from energizer with a 15 min charger, and I love them. I just think that if Garmin is going to suggest using lithium batteries for cold weather use they should make sure they work in their units before recommending the use of them in the manual.

[lesher]

Let me see if I understand. Are you saying that the hardware is perfectly capable of running on 3.4V but the firmware decides to shutdown when the sense circuitry measures greater than 3.0V. How do you know the sense circuitry doesn't rail above 3.0V?

[Hertzog]

Been talking to Garmin about it, they had me try running the batteries for a little while in another device (I used my Legend) first and it worked fine.

I ran the same sort of test myself today, using my old Vista as a voltmeter. Of six pairs, two wouldn't work in the 60CSx; these measured in the 3.4 v range in the Vista. One pair that worked in the 60CSx also measured in this range; the others were around 3.3 volts; all dropped about 0.03 v in the short time I had them in the Vista (about 0.01/sec), and after that all worked in the 60CSx. I'll leave them out overnight and check them tomorrow to see if they tend to regain their original levels.

 

Since I got my 60CSx through tvnav, I've made him aware of the problem (I believe he's just down the street from Garmin).

[+JohnnyVegas]

Maybe Garmin should have thought that people would want to use Lithiium Batteries in colder area were other batteries will not function. I would think that the design team at Garmin would have heared of lithium batteries.

[+Rotareneg]

I left those lithium AA's sitting overnight and their voltage bounced back up to 1.744, too high to work in the 60Cx. I suspect both Garmin and Energizer are to blame: The discharge curves on Energizer's spec sheets for the E2 lithiums never show their voltage going over 1.6v, and Garmin apparently didn't do any more research than to look at that spec-sheet.

[Hertzog]

I left those lithium AA's sitting overnight and their voltage bounced back up to 1.744, too high to work in the 60Cx. I suspect both Garmin and Energizer are to blame: The discharge curves on Energizer's spec sheets for the E2 lithiums never show their voltage going over 1.6v, and Garmin apparently didn't do any more research than to look at that spec-sheet.

I think you're right. Garmin has several times mentioned "3.2" as an upper limit, and I'm guessing they looked at the spec sheet and designed for 2x1.6. In Energizer's defense their curves are labeled "typical characteristics". In retrospect Garmin should have tested some. Isn't hindsight wonderful?

 

Anyway, I hope it's something they can fix with firmware. They do have the ability to read the voltage, since they show it on the test page, but it's possible that the high battery detection is hardwired, in which case the only fix would be retrofit. It's also possible that the new processor could be damaged above 3.2, but I doubt it; I think they came up with 3.2 just by looking at the Energizer curve.

[+Rotareneg]

The cut-off voltage is somewhere between 3.4 and 3.5. I'm tempted to open the thing up and see what DC to DC converters it's using on the various power inputs, but I'm not that brave/crazy/rich.

[Hertzog]

So to give Garmin credit, they did design in some margin, just not quite enough!

 

I'm not about to open my unit; I'll let Garmin figure it out.

 

I just tried two pairs of lithiums that had not worked Sunday but worked after being in a Vista for a few seconds; the were still working, and reading 3.4 in the 60CSx. They had been reading about 3.4 before, so it may be that they are just marginal. I still have 4 batteries in an unopened package, so I may break these out and check them to see if I've got some that will put out higher voltages.

[+tvnav]

Garmin told me yesterday that they should be able to take care of the high voltage issue with a firmware update. They do want to make it work with any AA batteries.