Caches On Private Property

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

Hi There -

 

I have a question regarding caches on private property (a business in the case I am thinking of). Is permission of the property owner required to get the cache approved, or is it strongly suggested. The guidelines seem a bit weak in this area (the word "should" is used and in my business, that's a weasel word).

 

If a cache is placed on private property without permission, what would be the proper course of action (after first trying to communicate/resolve with the cache owner).

 

THANKS!

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[+Moose Mob]

There are two ends of the spectrum with regards to private property.

 

At one end, you have parking lots, like Walmarts and such where people the presence of people is expected or accepted (in poarticular after hours). Those hides are fine.

 

Then there are places like Military bases. Anybody wandering around with electronic devices would be seen as a target.

 

Everywhere else falls in between. There are signs, rules, etc. No two situations are the same.

[+BadAndy]

There are two ends of the spectrum with regards to private property.

 

At one end, you have parking lots, like Walmarts and such where people the presence of people is expected or accepted (in poarticular after hours). Those hides are fine.

 

Then there are places like Military bases. Anybody wandering around with electronic devices would be seen as a target.

 

Everywhere else falls in between. There are signs, rules, etc. No two situations are the same.

I'd describe it differently.

 

1. public access, private property...like a walmart parkinglot. Permission would be nice, but most caches are placed without it.

 

2. private access, private property...like someones yard. Explicit permission required and posted on the cache page.

 

3. restricted access, public property...like a military base or airport. Caches not allowed.

 

4. public access, public property...like a greenbelt or park. I use the frisbee rule here. If I don't need permission to fly a kite or play frisbee, I don't need permission to place a cache.

[+Moose Mob]

<snip>

4. public access, public property...like a greenbelt or park. I use the frisbee rule here. If I don't need permission to fly a kite or play frisbee, I don't need permission to place a cache.

Careful with this one. This is regulated in more and more locations. Some parks and greenbelt managers are reguireing permits in the areas they manage.

 

You al;so have to look at the difference between "can you be there" versus "can you leave something there".

[+BigFurryMonster]

ALWAYS get permission. From gc.com:

 

Please make sure to obtain permission from the landowner or land manager ... prior to placing your geocache.

[+DocDiTTo]

I know when I hunt for caches in "questionable" areas, but am not sure the cache was placed there with permission, I'll usually just leave. So in order to let folks know that yes, I DID ask permission and we're ALLOWED to be here, I use this on my cache page:

 

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

Hello All -

 

The cache in this case is in the landscaping near the road of a large industrial type building. I e-mailed the cache owner to see whether they had permission to place the cache there and was told they didn't have permission but it was OK since most people don't ask for permission (to place on private property).

 

What are other's thoughts on this one?

 

Cheers!

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[+wiseye]

I don't beleive most people would seek permission in that case. It is important to note that cachers should be careful where they park, not being in the way of others. More importantly is seeking the cache going to harm the landscaping. Is it better to have permission? Sure.

[+ibycus]

Probably just generally a bad cache location. No one should really be climbing over landscaping, (at least the kind of landscaping I'm thinking of). Maybe with a really explicit 'hint' I'd say sure, but you're going to end up damaging things....

[+DocDiTTo]

If I were the guy who just spent the entire day mulching the flowers, I'd be quite upset if people started walking around in them for no apparent reason. And if I were the guy paying the guy who just spent the whole day mulching flowers, I'd be pretty upset if I had to pay him to go back and fix it up again.

 

Whoever says it's "ok not to ask because no one ever asks" is completely wrong.

[Ferreter5]

In my book: Private property = Ask the property owner.

[+Renegade Knight]

Any area of public accomidation is a valid place to consider placing a cache. That doesn't mean you can, or should.

 

My rule on permission is simple. If I'm not willing to gladly explain why my cache is there I'll get permission. When I've thought it important to seek permission I've never had someone tell me 'no'. When I have placed one in a location without explicit permission in writing and CC'd to the Deparment of Homeland Security it has never been an issue. Even when one of those caches was reported and recieved an "incident responce".

 

As for the frisbee rule...Um...I'd actually play frisbee in more places than I'd place a cache...

 

As DocDiTTo has pointed out, there are hides that are just bad. Even with permission. Why do that to someone? We rely on other peoples lands for this RASH. Their goodwill is important.

[+Renegade Knight]

Hello All -

 

The cache in this case is in the landscaping near the road of a large industrial type building.  I e-mailed the cache owner to see whether they had permission to place the cache there and was told they didn't have permission but it was OK since most people don't ask for permission (to place on private property).

 

What are other's thoughts on this one?

 

Cheers!

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

It's fair to log that the geocacher activity is resulting in damage to the landscaping area and that the hide should be removed or relocated. There is more than can be done but it's going to be specific to the cache, the land manager, the cache owner etc.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+sbell111]

This thread started out as a nice, friendly request for opinions, then it turned into cache policing. We should have all known better.

 

The cache was approved, its not yours. If you don't like the owner's answer, do not look for the cache. If you think that the location is clearly against the guidelines, log an SBA. Otherwise, perhaps you should mind your own business.

[+edscott]

There are two ends of the spectrum with regards to private property.

 

At one end, you have parking lots, like Walmarts and such where people the presence of people is expected or accepted (in poarticular after hours).  Those hides are fine.

 

Then there are places like Military bases.  Anybody wandering around with electronic devices would be seen as a target.

 

Everywhere else falls in between.  There are signs, rules, etc.  No two situations are the same.

I'd describe it differently.

 

1. public access, private property...like a walmart parkinglot. Permission would be nice, but most caches are placed without it.

 

2. private access, private property...like someones yard. Explicit permission required and posted on the cache page.

 

3. restricted access, public property...like a military base or airport. Caches not allowed.

 

4. public access, public property...like a greenbelt or park. I use the frisbee rule here. If I don't need permission to fly a kite or play frisbee, I don't need permission to place a cache.

Your rule #4 will get you in trouble in state parks in PA, and county parks in my area at least. Probably local parks if they ever take the time to find out about us... I would scratch that one from your list.

[+ibycus]

The cache was approved, its not yours. If you don't like the owner's answer, do not look for the cache. If you think that the location is clearly against the guidelines, log an SBA. Otherwise, perhaps you should mind your own business.

Depending on the details on the cache page, the reviewer didn't necessarily know about where the cache was placed. Having reviewed a number of waymarks, I can certainly sympathize with the difficulties in assuring that caches are placed appropriately. If there isn't something that sets off alarm bells on the cache page, the best you can do is look at Mapquest or Google Earth to get an idea of where the cache might be.

 

Also, others deserve to know before going out that there are issues with the cache. Personally if I felt strongly about it, I might post an SBA with details as to the nature of the hide (landscaped property, and cachers were causing damage) and leave it at that.

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

Ah, the mind your own business answer. I should have expected it.

 

This is not public land, this is not public right of way, this is in fact private property. How would you feel if someone were to use your place of business for their playground? I do not understand your thinking.

 

The cache in question was placed in some landscaping that is beginning to appear disturbed from the visits to the site.

 

Call me what you will. I was asking a question about others thoughts on the matter of cache placement on private property.

 

Cheers!

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[Keystone]

The cache was approved, its not yours.  If you don't like the owner's answer, do not look for the cache.  If you think that the location is clearly against the guidelines, log an SBA.  Otherwise, perhaps you should mind your own business.

Depending on the details on the cache page, the reviewer didn't necessarily know about where the cache was placed. Having reviewed a number of waymarks, I can certainly sympathize with the difficulties in assuring that caches are placed appropriately. If there isn't something that sets off alarm bells on the cache page, the best you can do is look at Mapquest or Google Earth to get an idea of where the cache might be.

I have published many caches hidden in the manner described by 4HoundsBrewingCo. I have not "approved" them... the only people who can approve or disapprove of a cache are the landowner, the cache owner and the finders who visit a cache and like it or hate it.

 

When I review a cache, I verify that it meets the site's listing guidelines, based on the information available to me. If the cache page says "ignore the gates and fences," I can question that. If the map says it's in a State Park, I can question why the cache page doesn't mention that a permit was received as required under the State Park's geocaching policy. But in most other cases, I have nothing else to go on, and I need to assume that the cache owner has read, understood and followed the listing guidelines when submitting their cache.

[+BadAndy]

Your rule #4 will get you in trouble in state parks in PA, and county parks in my area at least. Probably local parks if they ever take the time to find out about us... I would scratch that one from your list.

Obviously, any cache placement in a location that regulates geocaching needs to follow those regulations. If they're banned...don't hide a cache there. If a permit is required, get the permit.

 

These locations have already asnwered the question..."Is permission required?".

[+sbell111]

The cache was approved, its not yours.  If you don't like the owner's answer, do not look for the cache.  If you think that the location is clearly against the guidelines, log an SBA.  Otherwise, perhaps you should mind your own business.

Depending on the details on the cache page, the reviewer didn't necessarily know about where the cache was placed. Having reviewed a number of waymarks, I can certainly sympathize with the difficulties in assuring that caches are placed appropriately. If there isn't something that sets off alarm bells on the cache page, the best you can do is look at Mapquest or Google Earth to get an idea of where the cache might be.

I have published many caches hidden in the manner described by 4HoundsBrewingCo. I have not "approved" them... the only people who can approve or disapprove of a cache are the landowner, the cache owner and the finders who visit a cache and like it or hate it.

 

When I review a cache, I verify that it meets the site's listing guidelines, based on the information available to me. If the cache page says "ignore the gates and fences," I can question that. If the map says it's in a State Park, I can question why the cache page doesn't mention that a permit was received as required under the State Park's geocaching policy. But in most other cases, I have nothing else to go on, and I need to assume that the cache owner has read, understood and followed the listing guidelines when submitting their cache.

You are correct, of course. I chose my wording poorly. (In my archaic brain you're still an approver, approving. )

 

Of course, I stand by my second point. If a person truly believes that a cache placement goes against the guidelines, post an SBA. Otherwise, he/she should mind their own beeswax and skip the cache if its not their cup of tea.

 

Note: Sorry for the long quote. Normally, I'd have whittled it down a bit, but I feel that my reply is on point to much of the two embedded remarks.

Edited February 1, 2006 by sbell111

[+WalruZ]

Of course, I stand by my second point. If a person truly believes that a cache placement goes against the guidelines, post an SBA. Otherwise, he/she should mind their own beeswax and skip the cache if its not their cup of tea.

 

Sorry, but I don't buy this.

 

1. As a rule, you don't usually know where you're going to end up, cache-wise, until you get there. Certainly you can call off your search if the area is "not your cup of tea" - like a homeless encampment, a filthy patch of palmetto next to the highway, a cyclone fence next to an interstate or perhaps even the landscaping outside a warehouse. Still, once you're there, you're there - it's too late to skip being there, you *are* there.

 

2. If a cache placement isn't against the guidelines but is in a crummy place, someone who has been subjected to that crummy placement has every right to make their opinion known in their log. When you put a cache out you're inviting comment, and an honestly given negative comment does not constitute not "minding your own beeswax".

[+sbell111]

1) If you pull up to a cache location, and you can tell that it is in the bushes next to your car, you have the freedom to drive on. No one is making you get out.

 

2) Crummy placement is in the eye of the beholder. It must be horrible for you to live in a world where everyone can't live up to your standard.

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

Very true that one can walk away from any cache. The next logical step is to ask the cache owner some questions about the placement. We all have a responsibility to the sport to continually seek improvement in the caches and their chosen locations.

 

What we have here was not "crummy placement". The hide itself was very good except that it was placed on private property without permission. Nearby the hide there are many parks and areas that would be more appropriate than the landscaping of a business.

 

Sbell111, what in your mind would justify a person placing a cache in your flowerbed without your consultation?

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[+CookCrew]

I ignore all caches that are on the grounds of a business even with permission. Just because one manager might give permission, you cannot count on that information being passed to all employees.

[+sbell111]

... Sbell111, what in your mind would justify a person placing a cache in your flowerbed without your consultation?

Perhaps you should read my initial post (and second post) more carefully. Here's the relevent bit:

If you think that the location is clearly against the guidelines, log an SBA. Otherwise, perhaps you should mind your own business.

[+sbell111]

... What we have here was not "crummy placement". The hide itself was very good except that it was placed on private property without permission. Nearby the hide there are many parks and areas that would be more appropriate than the landscaping of a business. ...

I agree that this thread isn't about 'crummy placement' and shame on people for trying to make it into that. It matters not whether there were any other places nearby to hide a cache.

 

<I was going to say more to drag the post back to the topic, but just take a look at my other post just above.>

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

sbell111, I have read your posts and understand what you have said.

 

It does in fact matter that there were other (public) places to put a cache. If there were no public places nearby, and the private property owner declined your request to place a cache, would you just put it there anyway? And feel justified in doing so?

 

I do not believe that logging a SBA is the immediate first step for a cache that others have found (and enjoyed finding it appears). The logical first step is to determine, from the cache owner, whether the cache placement is within the guidelines and the property owner approves of the location. To me, logging a SBA is the equivalent of running to the principal to tattle. Respect for the cache owner pushes me to contact them first.

 

I have contacted the cache owners who, to their credit, have decided to temporarily disable the cache while they move it to a more fitting location on public property (or private property with permission).

 

sbell111, if you would like to discuss the issue further with me, I would be happy to take it offline. I believe I have heard enough from others to determine the answer to my original question.

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[Stache Rats]

The cache was approved, its not yours.  If you don't like the owner's answer, do not look for the cache.  If you think that the location is clearly against the guidelines, log an SBA.  Otherwise, perhaps you should mind your own business.

Wow, I guess god has spoken. I thought this is where newbies went for information.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Stache Rats

[+Harry Dolphin]

What I'm hearing is the Cache Police. "I don't think that cache is in a good/legal place." "Grill the owner, SBA it. Make everyone's cache meet what I think the requirements should be." I'm not the Cache Police? Who appointed you?

[+Moose Mob]

Just for a change of pace (and in hopes that the conversation can become reasonable and I won't have to lock it) Let's not talk about geocaches and lets talk about when other people park cars a vacant lots and at stores with for sale signs on them. Sounds fair?

[+sbell111]

As a car shopper, do I call all the car sellers to verify that they have permission to park there, or do I just check out the cars that interest me?

[+Moose Mob]

As a car shopper, do I call all the car sellers to verify that they have permission to park there, or do I just check out the cars that interest me?

Hypothetical? or Real life?

[+Lil Devil]

What do y'all think of a cache that is in the landscaping in the middle of a large apartment complex that has signs at the entry roads that say something to the effect of "Private Property - Residents Only"?

 

Sure, you can probably get in and out without causing alarm, but is this really an appropriate place for a cache?

[+sbell111]

As a car shopper, do I call all the car sellers to verify that they have permission to park there, or do I just check out the cars that interest me?

Hypothetical? or Real life?

Hypothetical.

[+sbell111]

What do y'all think of a cache that is in the landscaping in the middle of a large apartment complex that has signs at the entry roads that say something to the effect of "Private Property - Residents Only"?

 

Sure, you can probably get in and out without causing alarm, but is this really an appropriate place for a cache?

I'd skip it.

[+5¢]

What do y'all think of a cache that is in the landscaping in the middle of a large apartment complex that has signs at the entry roads that say something to the effect of "Private Property - Residents Only"?

 

Sure, you can probably get in and out without causing alarm, but is this really an appropriate place for a cache?

I'd skip it.

But if you took no action a lot of new cachers wouldn't know any better. Not picking on you Sbell, but you made a good point for my post. The vets of this game should take initiative toward what is right and wrong.

Edited February 3, 2006 by 5¢

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

Moose Mob, your point about parking cars has no bearing on the discussion. If you would have said they parked the car for sale in someone's landscaping, it would have been more appropriate. Let's keep it on track.

 

Why is it that when someone questions a cache location they are labeled as the cache police?

 

So apparently, the more experienced cachers think that placing a cache on private property without permission is OK? Very nice.

 

<That is all I will say on this topic.> Go back to the thumping of your chests and grunting.

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

 

<Sorry....can't resist....must address later comments.>

Edited February 3, 2006 by 4HoundsBrewingCo

[+sbell111]

... But if you took no action a lot of new cachers wouldn't know any better. Not picking on you Sbell, but you made a good point for my post. The vets of this game should take initiative toward what is right and wrong.

There is a difference between taking initiative and following up on every cache submittal.

 

Let's talk about the example cache. How do I know it was placed without permission? If permission was requested, who was it requested of? The owner of the property? The manager of the business? The head groundskeeper? Someone at corporate headquarters for either the owner of the property of the business?

 

I guarantee that if I try to check up on it and ask the wrong person that the cache will have to be removed.

 

What if the cacher who follows up in this manner has poor people skills? They might anger the owner/manager/guy who made a decision and the cache might need to be pulled.

 

What if many cachers take it among themselves to follow up in this manner? I guarantee that the decision maker will rethink his decision and make the cache go away.

 

There is a certain amount of good faith required in this game. If you find a cache that is a problem, post an SBA. It will make you feel better.

[+sbell111]

... So apparently, the more experienced cachers think that placing a cache on private property without permission is OK? Very nice. ...

Nice try at obfuscation, but no one has posted that violating the guidelines is OK.

[CoyoteRed]

The cache in this case is in the landscaping near the road of a large industrial type building. I e-mailed the cache owner to see whether they had permission to place the cache there and was told they didn't have permission but it was OK since most people don't ask for permission (to place on private property).

 

What are other's thoughts on this one?

Understand I'm going only on the information presented here, but here are some of my thoughts on the topic at hand.

 

Most likely the land manager does not have a geocaching policy in place, so in other words there is no policy for or against it. The important part is there is no "for" policy.

 

What is the purpose of the land on which the cache was placed? Is it recreation? Can employees take a walk on it during breaks? Think about how it is used. Is it merely a buffer between the road and the parking lot? Is the general public invited to be there?

 

If I were to look at this from a land owner perspective it could go either way. I could just as easily think "suit yourself" as I could "take it somewhere else."

 

IMHO, placements where the general public is not invited--that is versus not allowed--are not the wisest. I wouldn't say they shouldn't be allowed, but they should have some sort of purpose to be there. One way geocaching can be described is a recreational activity and this fits best for the topic at hand. The further away from the use the land is intended for the more we need to be careful.

 

While it is always nice to get explicit permission to place a cache, I'm of a mindset that it is not always required. Knowing the difference is the major problem, though, that will cause this hobby some considerable harm.

[CoyoteRed]

A follow up...

 

I would only ever post an SBA on a cache that I know is clearly against the steward's policy or illegal.

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

...

Nice try at obfuscation, but no one has posted that violating the guidelines is OK.

 

Pot calling the kettle.

 

I have already stated that I contacted the cache owner who informed me that the cache was placed without permission. Please stop confusing the issue. Your point about poor people skills has some validity.....especially in the discussion at hand.

 

CoyoteRed, your post makes the most sense to me. Thanks for your input. I think I see some things a bit broader now, though not in the case of the cache in question. There is no reason for the general public to be there (in the flowerbeds of an industrial type business).

 

Cheers!

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[+sbell111]

You obviously started the thread with the preconception that the cache should be archived. Why didn't you just post an SBA and get it over with?

 

I am still curious as to whether you are contacting the owners of every cache in your area or whether you have a personal issue with the particular cacher or just are trying to do away with caches that don't meet your definition of 'quality'.

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

I have offered to take it offline with you to discuss this matter but you continue to pursue me in the forums. I will not fold to a bully.

 

Yes, I did start the thread with preconception of what I believed the answer to be. Oh dear, someone had an opinion....and then.....<gasp> ..... asked others what they thought. Oh the horror.

 

I did not believe the cache should be archived as I think it serves a valid purpose in it's area due to the nature of the cache. That is why I did not call for archival but rather favored a softer approach (of communicating with the owners of the cache). Where is the fault in that approach?

 

I have no beef with the owner, I am new to Geocaching, and have never been to any events. I only know one cacher personally. There is no vendetta here. Can the conspiracy theory.

 

If you would re-read my posts, I have never mentioned the "quality" of the cache. In fact, I complemented the cache and felt it was well hidden. Do you have some sort of agenda?

 

Again, thanks to those that have replied with well thought, meaningfull feadback. You have my gratitude.

 

Cheers!

 

4HoundsBrewingCo

[+sbell111]

... Nearby the hide there are many parks and areas that would be more appropriate than the landscaping of a business. ...

[+sbell111]

... I did not believe the cache should be archived as I think it serves a valid purpose in it's area due to the nature of the cache.  That is why I did not call for archival but rather favored a softer approach (of communicating with the owners of the cache).  Where is the fault in that approach? ...

You either feel that it goes against the guidelines and should be removed, or you approve of it and it should stay. I think that you can't have it both ways.

 

I'm sorry if you feel I was bullying you just because we disagree.

Edited February 3, 2006 by sbell111

[+Moose Mob]

Locking thread for variety of reasons.

 

If the OP or anyone else would like to open a new thread on the matter, please do so in a more concise manner. The thread has a valid issue and deserves to be discussed in a more open manner.

 

Thank you.