My Dnf Was Deleted

[+CYBret]

This past weekend I went caching in an undisclosed location with some friends of mine. Wow! What a weekend! The weather was great and we did some great hikes! We only managed to find four caches, which doesn’t sound like much, but considering the terrain, and the fact that we were more interested in hiking and goofing off, we did pretty good.

 

Along with the four we found, we DNF’ed one cache. Now, I try to always post my DNF’s. The stories are often just as good as the finds, and this one definitely was. Also, we took a ton of great pictures that I really wanted to share with my fellow cachers. So this morning, after giving my logs a lot of thought, I sat down and penned what I thought was a pretty good DNF log.

 

If you’re interested, here’s the log as I wrote it:

I've always enjoyed logging my DNF's. Usually the stories require some embellishment, but this time the truth is the best part. This had to be one of the most fun DNF's I've ever had!

We saw from the cache page that there were some problems with this one, but we felt certain we could overcome them. SpottedU had found the cache some time earlier, so we figured if worst came to worst she could help us out. Well, worst came to worst and she wasn't a whole lot of help. Sorry, it's true!

But on the other hand, we got to see some amazing scenery and had a great time getting up to Inspiration Point. I had decided that cache or no cache, I was coming to this location.

Hopefully whatever issues there are with this one can be worked out. I'd love to make a return visit and claim my smiley face. In the meantime, thanks for bringing me here!

Imagine my surprise when I got back to my computer this afternoon to discover that my DNF (along with the accompanying pictures) had been deleted from the cache page! In my mailbox was this email from the cache owner:

Sorry about the NAME WITHHELD BY CYBRET cache. I thought the final was still there - we have a problem with a cache thief stealing all the caches in LOCATION WITHHELD BY CYBRET over and over again. We have tried every thing we can think of - that is why this is a members only cache and think we know who it is. So to try to keep the thief guessing on what is happening with the cache, I am trying to not have anything on the cache page with the status of the cache as the thief can read the cache page and know if he needs to steal it again. So I am deleting your DNF and your friend's note as that tells the thief the status. Feel free to log it as a find without mentioning the cache is missing. I will get the container replaced shortly. I hate to have to do things like this, but I just don't know how else to deal with the thief stealing all the caches over and over again.

I wrote back with what I thought was a fairly rational response:

I'm not logging it as a find if the cache isn't there. I really don't see how deleting my DNF is going to help matters if the thief knows he stole the cache and if you're going to replace it, what difference would my DNF make anyway?

 

I don't log caches as finds unless I find them and I always log my DNF's. I really appreciated the cache location and I wanted my friends who read my logs to be able to see the pictures. Would you please allow me to get the DNF unarchived?

To which this response came back:

If I allow something on the cache page that indicates the cache is gone, then there is a need to indicate it is back which tells the thief it is there to steal again. If someone logs a find and emails me it is missing, maybe the thief will go look for it before I replace it. If I replace it without indicating on the cache page it has been replaced, the thief does not know when it has been replaced. While it does not stop him from stealing the cache, it certainly makes it more difficult and time consuming for him to keep stealing them. If someone was stealing your caches (and all the other cachs) over and over again, what would you do? Would you try to make it harder for them to steal them? The guy we think is stealing them is a real wacko nut so there is no reasoning with him. I appreciate people who log DNFs in all circumstances except like this. I don't see what the big deal is on logging it as a find if you want others to see your pictures.

Its only a game. I've lost track of how many times I have had to replace my caches because of the thief. This is the best way I can think of to make it harder for the thief other than letting him win and not have any caches in LOCATION WITHHELD BY CYBRET. Which would you rather have? No caches to find or having to log a find when it is really a DNF? This has been going on for years.

Ok, so what am I missing here? If the cache thief stole the cache then he knows he stole it. If he’s smart (somewhat) he’s probably got the cache on his watch list and was already emailed my DNF this morning. What good does deleting my DNF do? At the very least it says that CYBret doesn’t always find caches (I log a LOT of DNF’s) and at the most it says this one might be missing. Honestly, we weren’t sure.

 

I’m well aware that the cache page belongs to the owner and they can delete whatever they want. I think that’s the way it should be, so I don't want to make trouble for this cache owner. But I really want my log and my pictures out there for others to see. What would you do? My thought at this point is to log the DNF on one of my own archived caches, post the pictures there, let people see them and read the story.

 

Opinions, pleeze.

 

For those of you who are interested, here are some pictures (there were more):

[+StarBrand]

Wow - interesting "logic". Nice pictures - glad you had fun.

 

Like you said - if somebody truely has stolen it over and over again - they probably got your DNF via email notification. If not - I can't see what difference it makes. Sounds like a bad spot for a cache.

 

Log it if you were in the general vicinity seems to be a new rule (see Criminals recent threads.)

 

sigh.....

[bogleman]

Wow, what an odd way to deal with a cache that gets stolen.

 

Someone really has a thing in it for the location/cache owner/whatever or it is a really busy location.

 

Was it a regular/small/micro.

 

Even easier to get your smiley now, don't even go to the location to look for it, just email me.

 

Nice pictures.

[+BlueDeuce]

sorry. not really adding much...

 

I guess wait til the crisis is over and repost then.

Edited May 8, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+Renegade Knight]

I agree 100% with what the owner of the cache is trying to accomplish for exactly the reasons they state even if they didn't say it as well as they could have. Personally I wouldn't have deleted the DNF but I understand and agree with why they went down that road.

 

Put simply the cache owner is removing the source of the persons gratification. No gratification means no fun. No fun means the jerkwad might go away. Because of the faceless nature of geocaching it's not so easy to hunt the maggot down and show them the path of light.

 

Every now and then a cache maggot rises above the opportunists. Like a lot of crime done for the thrill the thrill fades with the same old routine and the criminal will escalate. It’s how peeping toms graduate to rape. About the only control a cache owner has with a self made career cache maggot is to try and remove all gratification so there is none to be had and no way to escalate the fun. It’s not easy, and it’s not fun.

 

Even my post in this thread is a source of gratification for our local cache maggot that may lead to more of my caches being targeted.

[salmoned]

You've now posted your log for posterity, so all parties should be satisfied, eh? If you really find it distasteful, I suggest you muggle the cache when it's replaced to let the owner know of your disapproval.

[+wimseyguy]

Um lemme see if I understand the OP correctly. You went to a cache's location based on the info on the listing, you didn't find the cache, but still had FUN, you posted a DNF, letting the world you still had fun, but there was no cache nor logbook to sign to verify said find. This short sighted cache owner deleted your DNF, so that a-the cache thief couldn't get a woody, and b-so no one else would know that there is a problem with his cache. Won't this mean that someone else might then go to this same location expecting (based on the cache page history) to find a cache? That's the same or worse as logging fake finds. And he expects us to respect and understand this myopic rationale?

 

Bah! If I were the next cacher to visit this spot I'd thank him, as you did, for bringing me to this place that has a really cool tree and superb views, but I'd be kinda PO'd that there a-isn't a cache to find, and b- s/he knows this but refuses to replace the cache or archive the listing. Either way the cache maggot is winning. Maybe it's just time to let someone else have the location? maybe the cache maggot is targeting him, not the entire region?

 

I won't even get into the fact that he encouraged you to lie about your findings. Besides being unethical and just plain wrong, it might cause issues with your boss at your day job.

 

Since the gc profile page doesn't track our DNF's I wouldn't bother logging it on an archived cache, and besides it's just numbers, and you have already shared these great pics of cachers having FUN with us here. I think that's enough.

 

PS salmoned-I do not understand your logic at all.

[salmoned]

FIrst, what's the point of this OP? Is it to encourage TPTB to discourage the actions of this owner? An e-mail to TPTB would suffice. Is it to bully the owner by force of consensus to reconsider? If logic didn't work, why would bullying? Is it to point out how perverse is man? So be it!

[+CYBret]

FIrst, what's the point of this OP? Is it to encourage TPTB to discourage the actions of this owner? An e-mail to TPTB would suffice. Is it to bully the owner by force of consensus to reconsider? If logic didn't work, why would bullying? Is it to point out how perverse is man? So be it!

 

I'm pretty sure I laid this out in my last paragraph:

I’m well aware that the cache page belongs to the owner and they can delete whatever they want. I think that’s the way it should be, so I don't want to make trouble for this cache owner. But I really want my log and my pictures out there for others to see. What would you do? My thought at this point is to log the DNF on one of my own archived caches, post the pictures there, let people see them and read the story.

 

Bret

[+JohnTee]

This past weekend I went caching in an undisclosed location with some friends of mine. Wow! What a weekend! The weather was great and we did some great hikes! We only managed to find four caches, which doesn’t sound like much, but considering the terrain, and the fact that we were more interested in hiking and goofing off, we did pretty good.

 

(Lots of stuff deleted)

 

Sorry about the NAME WITHHELD BY CYBRET cache. I thought the final was still there - we have a problem with a cache thief stealing all the caches in LOCATION WITHHELD

 

(More stuff deleted)

 

 

Hey CYBret, you were down in my neck of the woods! Matter of fact, I did Alto Pass about 4.00pm on Saturday. I was cacher number four for the day there.

 

I know exactly which cache you're referring to, as I've been looking at that same cache trying to decide if I REALLY want to go after it (or his other cache) or not, knowing I won't know if I didn't find it because it's basically a DNF or it's gone.

 

No doubt, it would be really frustrating to have somebody ripping off your caches . . . but to ask cachers to NOT log DNF's and you'll get credit for a picture of your GPS??? Makes it hard to be interested in going after a cache.

 

Hmmm, am I guessing correctly that you went to Mikanda Fest . . . Yep! I just looked and you logged Boomer's Monument too!

 

JohnTee

 

Come over Cape Girardeau for some more caches sometime. There's some good hikes over here, as well as some nice shor tones.

[+darus67]

Make a public bookmark list, add this cache to it, and write your comments about the cache in the bookmark, for all to see.

 

The cache owner can't delete comments from your bookmark list.

[+CYBret]

Yup, you got me! I was there! And Makanda was...ummmm...interesting. But that's another story.

 

Yes, I've posted my log here for posterity..or at least until the thread dies (whichever comes first). But the pictures I took are NOT available in my gallery, the story is only available if someone searches for my forum posts.

 

To me caching is about experiences--whether they be finds or not finds. I love the stories, I love the pictures. I check out other people's galleries and logs and I know mine get viewed too. While I believe the cache page does belong to the owner and if they want to delete a log that's their choice, the experience belongs to me and I'd love for there to be some way for me to share it with the rest of the community.

 

What's the answer? I don't know. That's--in part--why I wrote this thread. If I were a blogger, I'd post my log on my blog site. But I'm not a blogger and I would much prefer that my experiences with geocaching remain at Geocaching.com.

 

Maybe if the archived log's pictures were still available through my own gallery. Would that be a workable solution?

 

Maybe if there were a companion site to Geocaching.com where blogging was encouraged and conveniently linked to through profile pages. I'm not sure what the answer is.

 

Any other ideas?

 

I'm not a "TNLNSL" writer, I enjoy writing and sharing what I've done through this game. I spent a lot of time this morning writing these logs and linking them in such a way that people could easily find my DNF. I'd just like to know that my own personal history is available for me and anyone who is interested.

 

(yeah, all 2 of you)

 

Bret

Edited May 8, 2006 by CYBret

[+geobc]

If it bothers you, don't log it. But give the cache owner a break. He's already having enough stress dealing with the cache thief. I agree with the other poster than the thief probably enjoys seeing DNFs posted.

 

GeoBC

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

I think the cache owner is wrong in how he or she is approaching this. It would irritate me no end to waste time looking for a cache that isnt there. Even if the scenery is ideal, there would be a frustration level just trying to figure out where the thing is hidden. Ive enjoyed DNFs before, but I would be peeved if the cache was listed as available when in fact the cache owner knows it isnt. That seems dishonest. About as much fun as a cache whose owner deliberately gives false coordinates to make it harder. (Hint--I dont care for those kind and refuse to hunt those.)

[+Renegade Knight]

...Any other ideas?...

 

The problem isn't your log, or the DNF. The problem is the cache maggot the owner is trying to come to grips with. Once the problem is solved odds are your log would stick around. You could even ask the owner to email you when the time comes.

 

My caching reality is similar to the cache onwer you are dealing with. It changes caching in the area to something different than what most people are used too. While I deal wiht the problem differently than this owner what we are both trying to accomplish is the same.

[AZcachemeister]

Yup, you got me! I was there! And Makanda was...ummmm...interesting. But that's another story.

 

Yes, I've posted my log here for posterity..or at least until the thread dies (whichever comes first). But the pictures I took are NOT available in my gallery, the story is only available if someone searches for my forum posts.

 

To me caching is about experiences--whether they be finds or not finds. I love the stories, I love the pictures. I check out other people's galleries and logs and I know mine get viewed too. While I believe the cache page does belong to the owner and if they want to delete a log that's their choice, the experience belongs to me and I'd love for there to be some way for me to share it with the rest of the community.

 

What's the answer? I don't know. That's--in part--why I wrote this thread. If I were a blogger, I'd post my log on my blog site. But I'm not a blogger and I would much prefer that my experiences with geocaching remain at Geocaching.com.

 

Maybe if the archived log's pictures were still available through my own gallery. Would that be a workable solution?

 

Maybe if there were a companion site to Geocaching.com where blogging was encouraged and conveniently linked to through profile pages. I'm not sure what the answer is.

 

Any other ideas?

 

I'm not a "TNLNSL" writer, I enjoy writing and sharing what I've done through this game. I spent a lot of time this morning writing these logs and linking them in such a way that people could easily find my DNF. I'd just like to know that my own personal history is available for me and anyone who is interested.

 

(yeah, all 2 of you)

 

Bret

 

More than 2 are interested, CYBret! Wish I could have been there with you!

[+ReadyOrNot]

If the cache owner knows who is stealing the caches, the cache owner should put out a new cache as bait, wait for the thief to come to steal the cache and beat the daylights out of him with a baseball bat. I really doubt that the thief will attempt to steal a cache again. Playing a stupid game of hide a seek is not going to deter a thief.

 

We've got some geocoin thiefs in our area that need a little knock to the head to remind them that stealing is wrong.

[+erikwillke]

why don't you "post a note" on the cache page and add yoru pics that way. win-win

[+CYBret]

why don't you "post a note" on the cache page and add yoru pics that way. win-win

 

Nope nope. I've been told, "If I allow something on the cache page that indicates the cache is gone, then there is a need to indicate it is back which tells the thief it is there to steal again." I can't post anything on there that indicates that I didn't find the cache. In fact, I look back over the last few finds and I have to wonder, when was the last time anyone actually found the physical cache?

 

Some of you have raise some interesting points that I hadn't thought about. Believe it or not, it escaped me that this just leads to more frustration for other cachers who go looking for this one. How many other DNF's and notes have been deleted? I have no idea.

 

How can there be any doubt...the cache thief is watching this listing. He has to be. I would be. In an attempt to save the caching community from the effect of this thief the only people who are getting hurt are...the caching community! Either log a fake find or don't come at all. Might as well capitulate. The thief has won.

 

I think it would be really great if I could find a Waymarking category that this site fit into, but so far nothing quite matches. This one is close, but it's far from "roadside." I guess I might have to start one.

 

Or maybe the category could be, "Places Your DNF's Have Been Deleted."

 

Bret

[+Sagefox]

FIrst, what's the point of this OP? Is it to encourage TPTB to discourage the actions of this owner? An e-mail to TPTB would suffice. Is it to bully the owner by force of consensus to reconsider? If logic didn't work, why would bullying? Is it to point out how perverse is man? So be it!

 

I didn't read into OP's topic that there was any intent to bully the cache owner. I find it interesting to read about situations like this to see what's going on outside my area. If it was not posted here I would not know about it. Kind of makes me appreciate my little ho-hum caching world where nothing majorly negative happens.

 

To OP'sa question - What would I do? Not sure. I love a good dnf story especially when adorned by good photos like yours. I think the cache owner should archive the cache and try again a year from now. The owner is 50% of the game because he-she keeps feeding it. The problem with posting a find as suggested by the owner is that the next cacher (as is often pointed out) will go after it and end up with a frown and then the game goes through another iteration. And maybe the bad guy does go out there and can't find it... I think this would fan the flames and strengthen his resolve. An archive would break the cycle.

[+carleenp]

I like to keep track of dnfs, especially fun ones, and like to have pics of my favorite adventures in my gallery. So I would log the dnf on one of my archived caches and upload the pics there so that the pics were in my gallery and anyone who viewed the gallery and got curious could then also see the log. Not the ideal thing since a cache page dnf would still best tell people to go check out the cool area, but it seems like the best alternative considering that the owner doesn't want the log. I also can see why the owner doesn't want the log, although I agree that the logic is a bit off since the thief likely already saw it. I also think that that the log being there does little in terms of reinforcement for stealing caches. It is such a cool looking place that I think others would go check it out regardless. At least I know that I would if I saw that in my area!

Edited May 9, 2006 by carleenp

[+hukilaulau]

But give the cache owner a break. He's already having enough stress dealing with the cache thief.

 

GeoBC

I agree. This is bigger than you and your pictures. It may be that the cache owner isn't telling you everything. He may have a plan that he doesn't want the general public to know about. A few people might be inconvenienced while he gets this taken care of. You might never know about it. You've shown us your pictures, told us your story. Now just let it go.

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

 

I think it would be really great if I could find a Waymarking category that this site fit into, but so far nothing quite matches. This one is close, but it's far from "roadside." I guess I might have to start one.

 

Or maybe the category could be, "Places Your DNF's Have Been Deleted."

 

Bret

 

There is a waymark group for scenic overlooks that are not roadside overlooks. I thought it was listed already, but maybe it hasnt gotten approved yet.

 

Correction, I found it. This is another category left invisible by its managers. Is this a possible flaw in the system?

 

The group

 

Scenic Overlooks

 

Edited cause I goofed on the url.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking

[+WeightMan]

After reading this thread, I am left with some questions.

 

What is the cache owner going to do when the cache is replaced and a Found It log goes up on the cache page? Wouldn't that tell the thief that the cache is back in place? Is the Found It log also going to be deleted? If so, what is the point of placing the cache again?

 

Just wondering.

[+DaveA]

I respect what the cache owner is trying to do by starving the cache thief from gratification, but I suspect the cache owner is unintentionally feeding the theif by deleting DNFs.

 

Clearly a cache thief is a person with a mental illness, very low self esteem, whatever. This person feels better about his/herself by causing others aggrivation.

 

So, the thief does something that takes no skill and involves no risk and steals a cache. OK, small amount of glee for the thief.

 

Next step in getting deranged pleasure is seeing the DNFs.

 

So, remove the DNFs, right? No.

 

If the thief has the cache on his/her watchlist they are emailed the DNF as soon as it is posted.

 

If they then click the link in the email to read the log and it shows up as not existing the thief knows the cache owner deleted it.

 

So now the thief gets the pleasure of the DNF as well as knowing the cache owner is expending time/energy trying to deal with the thief and is unsucessful.

 

I would think if a cache thief is active in an area the local cachers should be able to contact the local mods/approvers and request they look into who is on the watchlist of the caches that have been stolen. More than likley there will only be one person who is on the watchlist for all the stolen caches.

 

From this point the person can simply be banned from the site on the basis of their IP and an email sent to them explaining why they were banned. Problem solved.

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Hmm, doesnt this violate the rules about caches, that there has to be a log to sign at the cache location? Essentially this has turned into an unapproved virtual cache. Perhaps it needs an archive note.

[+mikeylou]

The way I see it, is that the thief wants to cause unhappy feelings all around. To the owner b/c he keeps filching the cache, and for those who come to attempt to find it, who then may be inconvenienced by not finding it.

 

IMO, the best way to fight Mr Filcher is to have people post nice happy DNFs. If your goal is to cause unhappiness, what are those gushy "I DNFed it but thank you for bringing me to this fantastic spot!" going to do for you?

 

Trying to inconvenience the thief by making him go to the site to steal a replaced cache is a noble idea and all, but like others have said, he's bound to have the cache on his watchlist. Any DNF posted he'll receive. I think the OP's DNF may have disappointed him, but finding that the owner deleted the DNF gave him that self-satisfaction back. He knows he's still getting to her(him?).

 

Honestly, I'd take a hands off approach on the logs. Place a well camo'ed micro with a log so not much is lost. Replace as needed and PM those who posted DNFs letting them know that the cache had been replaced.

 

All IMHO.

[RubiconJW]

If the same fellows caches keep vanishing then it might be he has someone in his area with a personal grudge. I can see some kid swiping one but not repeatedly. Or perhaps theres just a jerk in the area hitting on everyone. If this seems the case then I'd recommend a group buy on one of these units. Theft is theft.. take the evidence to the police & file a report... or as someone else suggested convince this person of the error in their ways.

 

JW

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Sorry folks, I have been following the whole thread here, but in summary, I must say that I do not see the logic, nor the civility, nor the sanity, in allowing a cache which has clearly been muggled and has disappeared to remain listed as active rather than disabling the listing, and the willful act of continually removing all DNF logs only propagates the deception. Frankly, once cache hunters in the hider's area realize that he continually and willfully violates commonsense standards of civility and community by refusing to disable an obviously dead cache, and that he deletes DNFs for the same reason, his caches will likely be ignored.

 

And, a note to CyBret: I am much like you, and thus I appreciated all of your comments about the fun and the value of all log entries, including finds, DNFs and notes. In fact, like you, I feel that it is these things which create the bonds which build our community. I tend to write longish and heartfelt log entries on cache listing pages, although I freely admit that my wife Sue tends to write much shorter and abrupt log entries (in fact, folks have often said to me that when they are reading log entries by our team, that they can almost immeditely intuit which of us wrote the entry!) And, I put every bit as much care and heart into my DNF logs as I do into my find logs.

 

. . .In fact, I am one of those folks who sooo wish that the stats for an account would also list all DNFs as well as all finds. And, since so many folks are numbers-conscious and have become DNF-shy, I think it might be a great idea to get rid of the frowning face which accompanies DNFs, and replace it with a more fun symbol instead.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+CYBret]

And, a note to CyBret: I am much like you, and thus I appreciated all of your comments about the fun and the value of all log entries, including finds, DNFs and notes. In fact, like you, I feel that it is these things which create the bonds which build our community.

 

Thank you. My sentiments exactly. I think we've evolved beyond "Geocaching" the game to "Geocaching" the community. I know I have made that change.

 

While owners need to retain control of cache pages, somehow I think we need to find a way for cachers to retain their experiences. Maybe that's just me.

 

This thread wasn't about bashing a cache or cache owner, I'd love to see some proactive original ideas on how to preserve the history of our experiences while caching and move beyond the limitations of a simple log entry.

 

One suggestion I've had and heard from others is some kind of blog for recording "adventures" rather than "finds/dnfs/etc." Perhaps some way of recording an "Adventure Log"...telling what happened that day between caches, on the way to caches, on the way home, general experiences and linking them from first cache find of the day to the next to the next...even DNF's and notes. Maybe being able to share the whole experience of a day of caching would actually encourage the writing of DNF's. Just a thought.

 

The reality is, there are a lot of Geocaching Blogs being written out there already. Maybe Groundspeak should take notice of that and provide something consistent and cohesive in-house.

 

Am I alone on this or has anyone else wondered about these possibilities too?

 

Bret

[+Ambrosia]

And, a note to CyBret: I am much like you, and thus I appreciated all of your comments about the fun and the value of all log entries, including finds, DNFs and notes. In fact, like you, I feel that it is these things which create the bonds which build our community.

 

Thank you. My sentiments exactly. I think we've evolved beyond "Geocaching" the game to "Geocaching" the community. I know I have made that change.

 

While owners need to retain control of cache pages, somehow I think we need to find a way for cachers to retain their experiences. Maybe that's just me.

 

This thread wasn't about bashing a cache or cache owner, I'd love to see some proactive original ideas on how to preserve the history of our experiences while caching and move beyond the limitations of a simple log entry.

 

One suggestion I've had and heard from others is some kind of blog for recording "adventures" rather than "finds/dnfs/etc." Perhaps some way of recording an "Adventure Log"...telling what happened that day between caches, on the way to caches, on the way home, general experiences and linking them from first cache find of the day to the next to the next...even DNF's and notes. Maybe being able to share the whole experience of a day of caching would actually encourage the writing of DNF's. Just a thought.

 

The reality is, there are a lot of Geocaching Blogs being written out there already. Maybe Groundspeak should take notice of that and provide something consistent and cohesive in-house.

 

Am I alone on this or has anyone else wondered about these possibilities too?

 

Bret

Oooohhh....the possibilities are endless......

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

...While owners need to retain control of cache pages, somehow I think we need to find a way for cachers to retain their experiences. Maybe that's just me.

 

This thread wasn't about bashing a cache or cache owner, I'd love to see some proactive original ideas on how to preserve the history of our experiences while caching and move beyond the limitations of a simple log entry.

 

One suggestion I've had and heard from others is some kind of blog for recording "adventures" rather than "finds/dnfs/etc." Perhaps some way of recording an "Adventure Log"...telling what happened that day between caches, on the way to caches, on the way home, general experiences and linking them from first cache find of the day to the next to the next...even DNF's and notes. Maybe being able to share the whole experience of a day of caching would actually encourage the writing of DNF's. Just a thought.

 

The reality is, there are a lot of Geocaching Blogs being written out there already. Maybe Groundspeak should take notice of that and provide something consistent and cohesive in-house.

 

Am I alone on this or has anyone else wondered about these possibilities too?

 

Bret

 

Yes, I think it would likely be most centralized, convenient and efficient if Groundspeak/gc.com were to offer that kind of community blog feature here at the gc.com site. Several finders of our Psycho Urban caches have sent us links to off-site (meaning off-Groundspeak site) blogs about their caching adventures where they had written extensivly about their adventures in seeking one or more of the Psycho caches, and reading their blogs and seeing the fotos was much fun. However, it would have been far more convenient and efficient if that blog had been located on the GC/Groundspeak system.

[+wimseyguy]

Am I alone on this or has anyone else wondered about these possibilities too?

I'm not a blogger, and do not spend time reading other blogs, but would like some some sort of way to link together the logs of those days when the time spent together with my geopals was the main experience of the day, not the actual finding of the caches.

 

Two Saturdays ago was a perfect case in point. Four of us spent over 16 hours together finding about 80 caches that for the most part while fun, were not remarkable (except for 2-3). Even the few DNF's weren't that exciting. But the total time spent together and stories shared made for a most enjoyable day. Sometimes that part of the geohunt is hard to convey in the logs.

 

Did that answer the question?

 

PS to add another reply to the thread OP-I think this is a perfect case of needing to post an SBA or at least NM log. I feel bad for the cache owner that the maggot is ruining the fun of seeing your cache found. It's a real shame that some lowlife is sucking the fun out of caching for others. I'm glad that behavior isn't going on in these parts. But the owner's actions are also potentially ruining the fun of someone who really wants to find this cache as there is inaccurate info on his cache page. That goes against the posted owner responsibilities in the guidelines. Requiring bogus and fake logs goes directly against the second sentence, unless there is actually a cache there with special logging instructions.

 

The cache owner will assume all responsibility of their cache listings.

 

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

 

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing.

[+1stimestar]

Nice pictures. Personally I would be mad if I went to a cache that the owner deleted previous DNF logs. I have lots of places to hike and adventures to experience. If I went on that particular hike then it would be for the cache, assuming it was there, because there were no DNF logs.

[+Goldenhawk]

Interesting dilemna.

 

If the muggler is really out for blood, and has any brains, he's got it watchlisted and the DNF goes right to his emailbox. The cache owner isn't doing ANYONE (including himself) any favors.

 

Also, I think it would be smarter to have a DNF listed as the most recent entry, because perhaps the muggler would stop visiting to remove it!

 

I'd vote for a "Needs Archived" log entry - that log gets the reviewer involved. If the owner is persisting in maintaining a cache listing despite knowing the cache is missing, the COMMUNITY deserves to have it archived. I feel really bad for the owner - it's no doubt a tough problem, but he's hurting other people (looking for a missing cache) by refusing to allow the DNF entries.

[+4leafclover]

could you ask a reviewer to reinstate your log and lock it in place?

 

I agree that this cache owner is doing a disservice to cachers by perpetuating a lie, i.e that the cache is there, when in fact it is not. I too, wonder why it hasn't been archived for flagrantly violating the guidelines of maintenace. I realize that it is not the cache owner's fault that the cache is not there (I do not have the TIME to address cache maggots...I too, detest them), but if a cache cannot bew kept in place, for any reason, it should be archived. (I do not LIKE this option, but it is also unfair to other hunters who expect to find a cache.)

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

could you ask a reviewer to reinstate your log and lock it in place?

 

I agree that this cache owner is doing a disservice to cachers by perpetuating a lie, i.e that the cache is there, when in fact it is not. I too, wonder why it hasn't been archived for flagrantly violating the guidelines of maintenace. I realize that it is not the cache owner's fault that the cache is not there (I do not have the TIME to address cache maggots...I too, detest them), but if a cache cannot bew kept in place, for any reason, it should be archived. (I do not LIKE this option, but it is also unfair to other hunters who expect to find a cache.)

 

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. I second, I mean third, the motion! To do so (reinstate DNF and archive or disable the cache listing) is only just and fair and reasonable. It is also the only sane approach. Anything else is madness.

By the way, I have great compassion for the poor cache owner in the face of the acts of the cache maggot, but his response so far has been little more sane and fair and civil than the actions of the cache maggot.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Interesting dilemna.

 

If the muggler is really out for blood, and has any brains, he's got it watchlisted and the DNF goes right to his emailbox. The cache owner isn't doing ANYONE (including himself) any favors.

 

Also, I think it would be smarter to have a DNF listed as the most recent entry, because perhaps the muggler would stop visiting to remove it!

 

I'd vote for a "Needs Archived" log entry - that log gets the reviewer involved. If the owner is persisting in maintaining a cache listing despite knowing the cache is missing, the COMMUNITY deserves to have it archived. I feel really bad for the owner - it's no doubt a tough problem, but he's hurting other people (looking for a missing cache) by refusing to allow the DNF entries.

 

Goldenhawk, I agree with you 200%! Thanks for saying it so well and so clearly!

[+Prime Suspect]

If it bothers you, don't log it. But give the cache owner a break. He's already having enough stress dealing with the cache thief. I agree with the other poster than the thief probably enjoys seeing DNFs posted.

GeoBC

That's not an excuse for stupid, illogical behavior on behalf of the owner. If the person taking the cache is monitoring the site using a watchlist or bookmark, he's going to get a copy of the original Found or DNF logs. Every time. Since it will almost always be new people logging the cache (i.e., those who have not logged the cache before), they will not be clued in to what the owner is doing, so their original logs will reflect the actual state of the cache.

 

Result? The cache thief still gets notified when a new cache is put out, and the cache owner forces people to post false logs. And that leads to non-thief cachers searching for a cache they think is there, based on recent logs, but is actually gone (and the owner knows it's gone, and doesn't mind sending people on a wild goose chase).

 

The owner is obviously frustrated, and out of frustration, wants to do something. But what he's doing isn't going to fix the problem. All it's doing is generating ill-will from legitimate cache hunters.

 

There are so many things wrong with this warped concept, it's hard to know where to stop.

[+Arrow One]

Personally, I don't see why the cache owner keeps replacing the cache if they know it's gonna get stolen again. I would just disable the cache for a few months till the stealer loses interest, and then replace it. Or archive it and list a new one in the area with different cords. If the person stealing the cache is that determined, there's nothing the cache owner can do. Deleting a DNF log does not make sense to me. If the person stealing is stealing just that owners caches, maybe they should try listing another one with a different name.

Just my opinion...

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

That's not an excuse for stupid, illogical behavior on behalf of the owner. If the person taking the cache is monitoring the site using a watchlist or bookmark, he's going to get a copy of the original Found or DNF logs. Every time. Since it will almost always be new people logging the cache (i.e., those who have not logged the cache before), they will not be clued in to what the owner is doing, so their original logs will reflect the actual state of the cache.

 

Result? The cache thief still gets notified when a new cache is put out, and the cache owner forces people to post false logs. And that leads to non-thief cachers searching for a cache they think is there, based on recent logs, but is actually gone (and the owner knows it's gone, and doesn't mind sending people on a wild goose chase).

 

The owner is obviously frustrated, and out of frustration, wants to do something. But what he's doing isn't going to fix the problem. All it's doing is generating ill-will from legitimate cache hunters.

 

There are so many things wrong with this warped concept, it's hard to know where to stop.

 

Yes, I much agree. The owner, at a minimum, could earn a very bad name for himself, and even for all cachers in his area, if he keeps us his unreasonable and uncivil behavior. And, once reviewers at GC.COM discover that he is deliberately not disabling dead caches -- well, to be blunt, his reputation will suffer greatly and he risks having all of his caches archived or at least subjected to intensive scrutiny. I have witnessed similar "geo-suicides" with cachers of my acquaintance on the East Coast, where they persisted in grossly warping/violating the rules of gc.com, and also the basic rules of commonsense and civility, so much that both fellow cachers and reviewers alike now view them (and their cache hides) with a great deal of distrust and even paranoia. I call it geocide, although I realize that some folks have coined that term to describe folks who commit public "forum suicide" as well.

[+Ed & Julie]

I read about half the replies, then skuipped to the bottom, so this may have already been observed...

 

It't likely that the cache thief is "watching' the cache page, so he/she has gotten the notification and copy of the DNF log anyways. Deleting it is closing the barn door after the horse it out.

 

Ed

[+ParrotRobAndCeCe]

Cache or no cache - those are some awesome pics!

[+CYBret]

Thanks Rob! I don't consider myself much of a photographer, but a blind monkey with a box camera could have taken great pictures at that location. I'm always amazed at those who live and breathe photography. I'm just glad to be able to post a decent photo from a cheap camera from time to time.

 

Speaking of the photos, I know this is off topic, but I sent some of the pics to an old high school friend of mine who happens to be a graphic artist now. About an hour later I got this back from her.

 

Click Here.

 

Most of those articles are 20 year old stupid memories from high school. I had almost forgotten about a couple of them...now they're burned in my memory.....again!

 

Bret

[+KeithTS]

Perhaps you could wait until someone logs a find. Then maybe the cache owner will let you log your DNF and your pictures. If you wait until after a find or two, your log will be past history and will have absolutly no bearing on the problems the cache owner is having.

[+Adventure.AS]

 

<snip for brevity>

 

How can there be any doubt...the cache thief is watching this listing. He has to be. I would be. In an attempt to save the caching community from the effect of this thief the only people who are getting hurt are...the caching community! Either log a fake find or don't come at all. Might as well capitulate. The thief has won.

 

 

You mentioned that the cache owner indicated this is a 'members only' cache. Doesn't that mean that the owner can see who is watching the cache? Perhaps the thief is not a premium member and/or is not 'watching' the cache to avoid being identified. If that is the case, they wouldn't get an instant notification of your log.

Edited May 11, 2006 by Maxima

[+Prime Suspect]

You mentioned that the cache owner indicated this is a 'members only' cache. Doesn't that mean that the owner can see who is watching the cache?

No, it just means they can see who visits the cache page. It doesn't show who's getting logs via a watchlist, bookmark, instant notification, or Pocket Query.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

This past weekend I went caching in an undisclosed location...

 

Bret, I just noticed this undisclosed location mention in your first post to this thread. . . Are you sure you do not hang out with Dick Cheney?

[+CYBret]

This past weekend I went caching in an undisclosed location...

 

Bret, I just noticed this undisclosed location mention in your first post to this thread. . . Are you sure you do not hang out with Dick Cheney?

 

Hmmmm....not sure I'd go cache HUNTING with him.

 

Bret

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

This past weekend I went caching in an undisclosed location...

 

Bret, I just noticed this undisclosed location mention in your first post to this thread. . . Are you sure you do not hang out with Dick Cheney?

 

Hmmmm....not sure I'd go cache HUNTING with him.

 

Bret