Disclaimer?

[+mumbo jumbo]

Recent threads have touched on possible legal risks associated with cache placing. Someone has mentioned that there is a general geocaching.com or Groundspeak disclaimer but I'm not sure I know where to find it. In the absence of that, I've drafted my own which would go at the top of all my listing pages:

 

"Before we begin, read this –

 

DISCLAIMER : You do not have to seek this cache. If you seek it, whether or not you find it and whether or not you log your efforts on www.geocaching.com, you agree to do so entirely at your own risk whether physical or otherwise and whether as to yourself, members of your party (particularly minors), third parties or public or private property (your’s or anyone else’s).

 

Sorry about that. Here we go…"

 

Couple of questions:

 

a) Should I?

Does it work?

c) Would this stop you doing my caches?

 

All thoughts gratefully recieved.

 

MJ

Edited October 7, 2006 by mumbo jumbo

[+Rose_Thorn]

Yes, add it to your cache descriptions if you feel the need. It's the compensation age, isn't it?

 

No, it would not stop me seeking your caches because I wouldn't dream of blaming the cache owner if I had an accident trying to find a cache anyway! It would be my own dadgum silly fault, and if I had young kids with me, I would assume total responsibility for their safety as well. People are all too ready to blame other people for anything and everything these days.

[+PopUpPirate]

Cutting and pasting the following, and using it as your Short Description, would help the disclaimer to blend into the page by matching the layout style of the Groundspeak disclaimer...

 

<span id="DisclaimerText"><br></span>

<table bgcolor="#992A2A" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"

width="450">

<tbody>

<tr bgcolor="#F2DDDD">

<td width="30"><img src="http://www.geocaching.com/images/attributes/alert-on.gif"

align="absmiddle"></td>

<td bgcolor="#ffffff"><strong>Please note:</strong> Any use of information on this page is entirely at the users own risk. This page is for information only.</a>.</td></tr></tbody></table>

<br>

<br>

[+jerryo]

I’ve just put a disclaimer on two of my caches. I wouldn’t be put off doing any with a disclaimer on someone else’s. What an amazing society we live in, litigious to our own and contrite to those who wish us harm.

[+The Cache Hoppers]

The link to geocaching.com's disclaimer is on cache listings, just above the Difficulty and Terrain section. It takes you here

[+The Bongtwashes]

I think you'll find that a unilaterally stated disclaimer cannot be upheld in law, wheras the acceptance of the Groundspeak disclaimer is implied in the fact that you have to agree to it to set up your account.

Otherwise you could put a disclaimer stating that you are not responsible for your own negligence.

[+mumbo jumbo]

This could fast become a law degree exam question. Seems to me that the Groundspeak disclaimer protects Groundspeak and it's at best ambiguous as to whether cache setters are protected. If it worked, why is one of our UK bretheren in a spot of bother?

 

I imagine these sort of cases have been brought in the US. Does anyone know what the outcome of those cases has been? [Another interesting exam question - The Groundspeak disclaimer is designed for (and possibly subject to?) US law. If a UK cacher sues a UK cache setter for loss / injury etc, would US or UK law apply to arguments about the disclaimer?]

 

Anyway, if there's any doubt (and there seems to be), why should cache setters cop it if something goes wrong? I've stuck my disclaimer on all 15 of my caches (including temproarily disabled ones which need some re-engineering). I don't think it can hurt. It'll be interesting to see if anyone mentions it in the logs.

[+Pieman]

The disclaimer doesn't do any harm but it doesn't do a lot of good either. In practise in the UK, as I understand it, there is very little chance a successful prosecution could be made unless you were very negligent.

[SlytherinAlex]

The disclaimer doesn't do any harm

Yes it does. It can be argued that by putting a disclaimer on your cache page you are acknowledging that there could be a circumstance where there MAY be risk. If you don't think there could be risk, then why put the disclaimer on the page?

[+mumbo jumbo]

The disclaimer doesn't do any harm

Yes it does. It can be argued that by putting a disclaimer on your cache page you are acknowledging that there could be a circumstance where there MAY be risk. If you don't think there could be risk, then why put the disclaimer on the page?

It's horses for courses. The geocaching.com discliamer (for what it's worth) makes it clear that there generally are risks involved in caching. Some of my caches are low / no risk. Others do involve the risks we all (obviously) accept and probably enjoy as part of our caching day out. But there are nutters out there. I deal with them at work. If I'm the unlucky UK cache setter targetted by a nutter, I might yet be glad of my disclaimer.

[+The Mighty Shark]

If I'm the unlucky UK cache setter targeted by a nutter, I might yet be glad of my disclaimer.

Well I think what you have done with your disclaimer is spot on and I am thinking of doing the same with my caches after the recent events that have come to our attention over the past few hours.

[+Pieman]

The disclaimer doesn't do any harm

Yes it does. It can be argued that by putting a disclaimer on your cache page you are acknowledging that there could be a circumstance where there MAY be risk. If you don't think there could be risk, then why put the disclaimer on the page?

That's an interesting point. Of course in any cache find there is a risk just as in anything you do in life there is a risk. It is all a matter of degree. I won't be putting any disclaimers on my cache pages because I am sure that any third party would agree with me that I am not exposing anyone who does my caches to unreasonable risk.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Deleted

Edited October 8, 2006 by Us 4 and Jess

[+Trucker Lee]

Have been watching your discussions from this side of the pond. It is truly sad that we live in a society where one cannot take responsibility for personal safety, where common sense is tossed out for the sake of getting a few undeserved dollars, francs, or tuppence.

 

I myself don't believe that a disclaimer would hurt, something to the effect that one hunts the cache at their own risk, along with a reminder that they alone are responsible for their safety and hunting the cache or waypoint signifies their acceptance of this fact.

 

I guess this goes to show that some persons in society should still be holding their mommy's hand for their own well-being.

[+Jaz666]

The disclaimer doesn't do any harm

Yes it does. It can be argued that by putting a disclaimer on your cache page you are acknowledging that there could be a circumstance where there MAY be risk. If you don't think there could be risk, then why put the disclaimer on the page?

 

I agree with Alex (for once!). Because Bed Clangers can't post any specifics about the case in the forum, a few of us might be jumping the gun with some assumptions.

 

I have heard a little more about what's happened off the forum, and don't see why anyone should have to post a disclaimer on their page.

 

I'd personally ask everyone to take a step back for a while before adding any disclaimer to their page, as it could quickly get to the point where people are doing it just because they think it is expected of them.

 

What's next, a full risk assessment on each cache page?

 

If you are worried about someone's safety whilst hunting your cache, ask yourself if it is rated correctly, and if you have made the best use of the attributes to give the hunter the best information to prepare themselves.

 

If you are worried about any legal action against you, before posting a disclaimer first ask yourself if you've actually approached the landowner for permission.

[+jerryo]

If you are worried about someone's safety whilst hunting your cache, ask yourself if it is rated correctly, and if you have made the best use of the attributes to give the hunter the best information to prepare themselves.

 

If you are worried about any legal action against you, before posting a disclaimer first ask yourself if you've actually approached the landowner for permission.

I put a disclaimer on a 5/5 cache of mine, which is on public land and I've given it all the warning attributes I can. I don't see why I shouldn’t add further information telling folk to be careful if they want to follow my footsteps. Asking landowners' permission isn't really the issue here; it's whether people are going to sue you because you've encouraged them to go somewhere where they wouldn't have normally gone that’s the crux of the matter.

[Lactodorum]

The disclaimer doesn't do any harm

Yes it does. It can be argued that by putting a disclaimer on your cache page you are acknowledging that there could be a circumstance where there MAY be risk. If you don't think there could be risk, then why put the disclaimer on the page?

 

I agree with Alex (for once!). Because Bed Clangers can't post any specifics about the case in the forum, a few of us might be jumping the gun with some assumptions.

 

I have heard a little more about what's happened off the forum, and don't see why anyone should have to post a disclaimer on their page.

 

I'd personally ask everyone to take a step back for a while before adding any disclaimer to their page, as it could quickly get to the point where people are doing it just because they think it is expected of them.

 

What's next, a full risk assessment on each cache page?

 

If you are worried about someone's safety whilst hunting your cache, ask yourself if it is rated correctly, and if you have made the best use of the attributes to give the hunter the best information to prepare themselves.

 

If you are worried about any legal action against you, before posting a disclaimer first ask yourself if you've actually approached the landowner for permission.

I think this post sums up my position perfectly

[+Nellies Knackers]

If you have young children in the team why not register the username to them, I can't see a judge awarding huge damages to injuries obtained while retrieving a cache set by a two year old

I only say this as my caches appear to have been set by a two year old (me)

[+molfrew-mosstoad]

To us a disclaimer is just 'small print' that nobody really reads, just like the terms and conditions at the bottom of a programme.........Does anyone read them? So no it wouldn't stop us we, walk into trees that we know are there!!???

 

We agree with Nellies Knackers

[+minstrelcat]

If you have young children in the team why not register the username to them, I can't see a judge awarding huge damages to injuries obtained while retrieving a cache set by a two year old

I only say this as my caches appear to have been set by a two year old (me)

 

I'm far from being a legal expert but I think the parents would be seen as responsible for the actions of the child.

 

Lisa

[+Nellies Knackers]

If you have young children in the team why not register the username to them, I can't see a judge awarding huge damages to injuries obtained while retrieving a cache set by a two year old

I only say this as my caches appear to have been set by a two year old (me)

 

I'm far from being a legal expert but I think the parents would be seen as responsible for the actions of the child.

 

Lisa

 

Not if you can prove that you are irresponsible, I'd have no problem.

[alistair_uk]

First off I agree with holding off from any reactionary changing of listings, especially with little legal knowledge. It does appear to me that people are trying to use commonsense to legally protect themselves, but I know from heath and safety seminars that such a disclaimer will rarely protect us and often hinder. Can I plead with everyone that if we are to start putting disclaimers on listings then we seek legal advice first.

[+paul.blitz]

What's next, a full risk assessment on each cache page?

 

Now there's an interesting thought... not for "individuals", but for any organisation that takes people caching (scouts? commercial organisations?): the leaders WOULD indeed need to carry out a risk assessment.

 

Some "commercial organisations" have, I believe, actually placed caches (albeit maybe not listed at GC.com): I wonder if any of them had a formal risk assessment carried out? :-)

 

Paul

[markandlynn]

I think that this USA cache has the disclaimer to beat all other disclaimers

(Psycho Urban Cache #13 - Impossible! Give Up Now!)

Sorry its a premium members only cache

For the non PM's it works on the principle of being so dadgum long, and long winded and repeating itself that you fall asleep before finishing it

 

Other points aside you have to agree to the GC disclaimer to sign in thats why they changed it.

 

Telford town park were worried about this issue when they gave permision for a cache in the park but eventually discounted the possibility of a succesfull case being brought against them or us for injury while seeking the cache.

[+Pieman]

I think that this USA cache has the disclaimer to beat all other disclaimers

(Psycho Urban Cache #13 - Impossible! Give Up Now!)

Sorry its a premium members only cache

For the non PM's it works on the principle of being so dadgum long, and long winded and repeating itself that you fall asleep before finishing it

 

I think what they were trying to say is "This is very hard, be careful".