Potential Problem Caches

[+sbell111]

...I just saw this as a continuation of the ongoing stalemale that exsits with a lot of conversations in this forum. We need a real life experience to draw on. Unfortunately, nobody has stepped up to offer a real world example of a lot of things you are saying.... AND The same goes for some of the things that I am saying.

That simple isn't true. I smatter my posts with real-world examples somewhat frequently. However, I'm not going to ask permission for a cache that I don't wish to create. You could follow that same policy.

[Clan Riffster]

It seems that some people believe that only the corporate office for a big box chain can make the decision as to whether to allow caches, others feel that the local store manager has the authority, and still others feel that since the store allows the public to use their parking lot that is already adequate permission.

I can't speak for other states without reading their statutes, but I can tell you about Florida. In Florida, I do not need formal permission to engage in a lawful activity, in a place where the public is allowed. Specifically, I would be perfectly legal hiding a cache at Wally World without asking anybody. As I interpret the guidelines, this means I already have "adequate" permission to do so, and I could check that little box on the cache submission page with no worries. In my opinion, placing a cache at most commercial properties, without explicit permission is both legal, and within the guidelines.

 

And now for the rest of the story.....

(As Paul Harvey used to say)

Just so everybody is clear, my belief that all CPC's should have explicit permission was not arrived at because of any existing laws or guidelines. The roots of this belief are two fold. 1) I think CPC's, placed without explicit permission, can have a detrimental impact on this game. 2) Even if I didn't think these could hurt the game, the way I was raised tells me that obtaining explicit permission for a CPC is the right and honorable thing to do. This is why I will continue to voice my belief, both to individual cachers and to Groundspeak, that CPC's should have explicit permission.

[Mushtang]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

[+Too Tall John]

Since I am not in the market for a new cache, I have no need to obtain any cache placement-related permission...

Is that a cop out? Maybe.

Welcome back. Perhaps you can answer my question as to why that is a cop-out.

No offense meant, sbell. It felt like a cop-out answer on my part. I mean, if we really want to know the answer to all this stuff we've been debating, the answer is right there at Wal-Mart, waiting to be asked. It just seems easier to say "I don't want to ask 'cuz I don't want to place a cache there" than it is to say "I don't want to ask because I'm afraid of the consequences." Does that make any sense?

[+sbell111]

Since I am not in the market for a new cache, I have no need to obtain any cache placement-related permission...

Is that a cop out? Maybe.

Welcome back. Perhaps you can answer my question as to why that is a cop-out.

No offense meant, sbell. It felt like a cop-out answer on my part. I mean, if we really want to know the answer to all this stuff we've been debating, the answer is right there at Wal-Mart, waiting to be asked. It just seems easier to say "I don't want to ask 'cuz I don't want to place a cache there" than it is to say "I don't want to ask because I'm afraid of the consequences." Does that make any sense?

It does. Thank you.

 

The truth is, I wasn't completely in love with it when I gave that answer. I just didn't think any other response would be appropriate (and truthful).

[+Too Tall John]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

This thread seems to have gotten much quieter since TGB said they were going to do this. Is everyone holding their breath like I am?

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[Mushtang]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Let's see

starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular

gonna call it

Worst to First

 

Oh Yeah, that's gonna impress the hell out of Wal-Mart executives.

 

You can't even contain your prejudice and agenda in this forum, no way can you do it in a presentation.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

Let's see

starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular

gonna call it

Worst to First

 

Oh Yeah, that's gonna impress the hell out of Wal-Mart executives.

 

You can't even contain your prejudice and agenda in this forum, no way can you do it in a presentation.

 

I have to agree, TAR. Dude, you gotta work on your presentation! Worst to First ain't gonna work.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Let's see

starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular

gonna call it

Worst to First

 

Oh Yeah, that's gonna impress the hell out of Wal-Mart executives.

 

You can't even contain your prejudice and agenda in this forum, no way can you do it in a presentation.

 

I have to agree, TAR. Dude, you gotta work on your presentation! Worst to First ain't gonna work.

 

Neither will "starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular"... as far as Wal-Mart is concerned THEY are the spectacular place you come to.

[+sbell111]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would recommend against asking for permission in writing. It is not required or necessary. It also might be just the thing that spooks the manager into not giving permission.

 

Also, I agree with everyone else. I don't believe that it is possible for you to give your best effort to sell a product that you don't believe in.

Edited March 14, 2007 by sbell111

[+Too Tall John]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would avoid "Worst to First." I'd say it'd be ok to let them know you want to have the cache start somewhere mundane where people go every day (their parking lot) and end somewhere with a really cool setting, the management won't be so blind as to think that their parking lot is paradise.

 

IMHO, a letter to the manager will get you nowhere. It'll get shuffled off to the community relations person, or worse, put in the circular file. Call the store or pop in and ask to speak directly with the store manager. You will probably get an assistant manager at first, but this is something I don't see them fielding alone. If the manager isn't available, see about finding a time when they can sit down with you.

 

Make sure when you talk with the manager that you let them know you are asking to be sure you comply with the store's policies. If they are basing their answer on policy, it is more likely to be a consistent answer at other stores, too. Asking for a response in writing may be overkill & be more likely to get a "no" if only because of the trouble to do so. Pay attention, write down anything important afterwards, but don't take notes during your conversation, they may feel like you're gathering info to use against them.

 

If you pop into the store, mention that while you are there you need to pick up some swag. I imagine that a number of managers I've worked with would actually be interested in the idea of geocaching, but even more would be excited about the idea of geocachers stopping in to buy stuff, even cheap stuff. Heck, they keep track of items that tend to bring people into the store. As a photo lab mgr, I had the highest customer count item in the store: the disposable camera. Visit 1: buy camera. Visit 2: drop off camera for developing. Visit 3: pick up pictures. 3 visits, 2 rings on the register! The wonder item!

 

How could a geocache be seen in that light? While it won't bring anyone into the store or to the registers directly, there's the well known "While I'm here I need..." syndrome.

 

This, of course, all depends on if they can get past any rules restricting activities in the parking lot, but the more info you have the better, right?

Edited March 14, 2007 by Too Tall John

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

 

I just want to make clear that I am going to only ask the local manager for permission. I actually think that we are all pretty much on the same page as to what would happen if Walmart was approached on a corporate level for global permission and I do not think I want my fingerprints on that nor do I feel I am the person that should be representing GC.com. If it turns out that they request I ask for corporate permission, I will abort as I agree that there is very little good that could come out of it.

 

Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

[+sbell111]

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

... Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would avoid "Worst to First." I'd say it'd be ok to let them know you want to have the cache start somewhere mundane where people go every day (their parking lot) and end somewhere with a really cool setting, the management won't be so blind as to think that their parking lot is paradise.

 

IMHO, a letter to the manager will get you nowhere. It'll get shuffled off to the community relations person, or worse, put in the circular file. Call the store or pop in and ask to speak directly with the store manager. You will probably get an assistant manager at first, but this is something I don't see them fielding alone. If the manager isn't available, see about finding a time when they can sit down with you.

 

Make sure when you talk with the manager that you let them know you are asking to be sure you comply with the store's policies. If they are basing their answer on policy, it is more likely to be a consistent answer at other stores, too. Asking for a response in writing may be overkill & be more likely to get a "no" if only because of the trouble to do so. Pay attention, write down anything important afterwards, but don't take notes during your conversation, they may feel like you're gathering info to use against them.

 

If you pop into the store, mention that while you are there you need to pick up some swag. I imagine that a number of managers I've worked with would actually be interested in the idea of geocaching, but even more would be excited about the idea of geocachers stopping in to buy stuff, even cheap stuff. Heck, they keep track of items that tend to bring people into the store. As a photo lab mgr, I had the highest customer count item in the store: the disposable camera. Visit 1: buy camera. Visit 2: drop off camera for developing. Visit 3: pick up pictures. 3 visits, 2 rings on the register! The wonder item!

 

How could a geocache be seen in that light? While it won't bring anyone into the store or to the registers directly, there's the well known "While I'm here I need..." syndrome.

 

This, of course, all depends on if they can get past any rules restricting activities in the parking lot, but the more info you have the better, right?

 

All good things to know, thanks. I actually was going to revert to plan B (a personal visit) if I got ignored but I wanted to be articulate in the wording I used and the information that they have to work with. I think we've all tried to give the 5 minute explanation of geocaching and it's really tough to pull off sometimes. Additionally, I wanted to do everything I can to prove that this was an honest attempt and share written correspondence.

 

In the past, I've been successful in getting permission from places like a museum, a historical society, an adventure park, a coffee shop and some of them appreciated having something written so they can discuss it amongst themselves. I realize that WalMart is a much different animal that everyone I have spoken to and really appreciate your thoughts. I think I am going to bring a lock-n-lock that I purchased there full of swag to show them what a geocache is in most places here. I will also ask why they think that lock-n-lock are hard to keep in stock. However, I am going to ask for the most unobtrustive hide possible, probably just a small container with coords to someplace else.

 

How about "From Wally World to Water World?" I was thinking about the final being placed at one of the final scenes in the movie Water World.

[+Team GeoBlast]

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

... Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

 

Please allow him to answer the question that I asked him. In fact, perhaps we can cut down on the bickering if you would not comment on questions being asked directly to someone. Thank-you.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would avoid "Worst to First." I'd say it'd be ok to let them know you want to have the cache start somewhere mundane where people go every day (their parking lot) and end somewhere with a really cool setting, the management won't be so blind as to think that their parking lot is paradise.

 

IMHO, a letter to the manager will get you nowhere. It'll get shuffled off to the community relations person, or worse, put in the circular file. Call the store or pop in and ask to speak directly with the store manager. You will probably get an assistant manager at first, but this is something I don't see them fielding alone. If the manager isn't available, see about finding a time when they can sit down with you.

 

Make sure when you talk with the manager that you let them know you are asking to be sure you comply with the store's policies. If they are basing their answer on policy, it is more likely to be a consistent answer at other stores, too. Asking for a response in writing may be overkill & be more likely to get a "no" if only because of the trouble to do so. Pay attention, write down anything important afterwards, but don't take notes during your conversation, they may feel like you're gathering info to use against them.

 

If you pop into the store, mention that while you are there you need to pick up some swag. I imagine that a number of managers I've worked with would actually be interested in the idea of geocaching, but even more would be excited about the idea of geocachers stopping in to buy stuff, even cheap stuff. Heck, they keep track of items that tend to bring people into the store. As a photo lab mgr, I had the highest customer count item in the store: the disposable camera. Visit 1: buy camera. Visit 2: drop off camera for developing. Visit 3: pick up pictures. 3 visits, 2 rings on the register! The wonder item!

 

How could a geocache be seen in that light? While it won't bring anyone into the store or to the registers directly, there's the well known "While I'm here I need..." syndrome.

 

This, of course, all depends on if they can get past any rules restricting activities in the parking lot, but the more info you have the better, right?

 

Too Tall.. question for you. Do you think it would be better if I brought in an example of a geocache or purchased stuff for a cache and had it in a bag when I requested to talk to the manager? Would the main manager be working at night or is there a better time of the day to approach? I have to be careful to not make this a commercial cache listing but I have no problems saying that Walmart has the best deal on them because they do. People should know that.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[+Team GeoBlast]

I prefer if we keep this thread on topic and not talk about banning anything or about ways to control the growth of any particular sector of geocaching. It may be on-topic to make a claim that rapid growth in the numbers of CPCs increases the chances of caches causing problems or make make some property owners perceive the problem to be more significant.

 

It seems that some people believe that only the corporate office for a big box chain can make the decision as to whether to allow caches, others feel that the local store manager has the authority, and still others feel that since the store allows the public to use their parking lot that is already adequate permission. It seems now that one side may want to prove their site by going to the corporate management to ask permission for blanket geocache approval.

 

I don't see where the guidelines call for blanket approval of all geocaches by any particular land owner/land manager. If there is blanket approval that the reviewers know about it makes it easier for them to approve the cache. If there is a blanket ban, then they will not approve a cache unless the placer can demonstrate that they received explicit permission. For example, caches have been approved in some National Parks because they got explicit permission. Lacking a known policy, the reviewers rely on the cache placer to make the decision as to what is adequate. Since they have been to the cache location they may be in a better position than the reviewer. Asking Wal*Mart Corporate offices for a blanket geocaching policy will result in one of three things happening

• A blanket ban on caches in Wal*Mart parking lots
  
• Some kind of permission from corporate, likely allowing local stores the descretion to allow caches or not
  
• the status quo - either because you'll get no response from corporate officials or they will tacitly accept the GC.com policy
  

 

T..

 

Do want me to start a new thread to discuss obtaining permission from Walmart and my experience in asking for it? I'm happy to do it, in fact, maybe you can come over and be the bouncer since you doing such a nice job on this thread.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would recommend against asking for permission in writing. It is not required or necessary. It also might be just the thing that spooks the manager into not giving permission.

 

Also, I agree with everyone else. I don't believe that it is possible for you to give your best effort to sell a product that you don't believe in.

 

Thank you for your thoughts but please just speak for yourself. What I do believe in is a well thought out cache and I will be proposing just that. I'm not going to put a one stop LPC anywhere, it's not my particular style and as you correctly pointed out, I'd have a tough time selling that idea to anyone.

 

You really haven't had anything nice or remotely constructive to say to me for over a month now, so you trying to throw a fly into the ointment is not a surprise and even somewhat predictable. I encourage you or anyone else to take action and head into your local Wally World and do the same thing if you don't think I am person for the job. To be clear, it is the "what they don't know won't hurt them" or " "I think they already know" that is unacceptable to me.

 

Forgive me for this, but I just want to deal with real world facts and not conjecture.. yours or mine. If it is possible to obtain explicit permission, I am going to be totally satisfied with that. In fact, it will be somewhat of a relief.

[+sbell111]

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

... Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

Please allow him to answer the question that I asked him. In fact, perhaps we can cut down on the bickering if you would not comment on questions being asked directly to someone. Thank-you.

I'm sorry, but that's not how forums work. Perhaps you could check out the PM feature for your one-to-one messaging.

[+sbell111]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would recommend against asking for permission in writing. It is not required or necessary. It also might be just the thing that spooks the manager into not giving permission.

 

Also, I agree with everyone else. I don't believe that it is possible for you to give your best effort to sell a product that you don't believe in.

Thank you for your thoughts but please just speak for yourself. What I do believe in is a well thought out cache and I will be proposing just that. I'm not going to put a one stop LPC anywhere, it's not my particular style and as you correctly pointed out, I'd have a tough time selling that idea to anyone.

 

You really haven't had anything nice or remotely constructive to say to me for over a month now, so you trying to throw a fly into the ointment is not a surprise and even somewhat predictable. I encourage you or anyone else to take action and head into your local Wally World and do the same thing if you don't think I am person for the job. To be clear, it is the "what they don't know won't hurt them" or " "I think they already know" that is unacceptable to me.

 

Forgive me for this, but I just want to deal with real world facts and not conjecture.. yours or mine. If it is possible to obtain explicit permission, I am going to be totally satisfied with that. In fact, it will be somewhat of a relief.

Actually, I think that post was pretty darn constructive. I felt like you were making a mistake and attempted to warn you about it. In my opinion, your posts have been combative throughtout these couple of threads.

 

BTW, I think it's pretty clear that each of us only 'speaks for ourselves'. That's really the purpose of a forum, in my opinion.

Edited March 14, 2007 by sbell111

[+Team GeoBlast]

Let's see

starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular

gonna call it

Worst to First

 

Oh Yeah, that's gonna impress the hell out of Wal-Mart executives.

 

You can't even contain your prejudice and agenda in this forum, no way can you do it in a presentation.

 

I have to agree, TAR. Dude, you gotta work on your presentation! Worst to First ain't gonna work.

 

Neither will "starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular"... as far as Wal-Mart is concerned THEY are the spectacular place you come to.

 

You are 100% correct. That was geocacher to geocacher forum talk and I would never say that to someone with a vested interest in WalMart. I think if you asked the local cachers here, there's more than one that would nominate me to seek hard to obtain permissions like this one.

 

I'd like you to accept that I am doing this because you and others in your camp either don't have the motivation or don't think it is necessary and don't see moving forward from this point in the discussion without something more tangible to discuss. I strongly encourage you to do the same in your community so you can be assured that the effort put forth is honest and real.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would recommend against asking for permission in writing. It is not required or necessary. It also might be just the thing that spooks the manager into not giving permission.

 

Also, I agree with everyone else. I don't believe that it is possible for you to give your best effort to sell a product that you don't believe in.

Thank you for your thoughts but please just speak for yourself. What I do believe in is a well thought out cache and I will be proposing just that. I'm not going to put a one stop LPC anywhere, it's not my particular style and as you correctly pointed out, I'd have a tough time selling that idea to anyone.

 

You really haven't had anything nice or remotely constructive to say to me for over a month now, so you trying to throw a fly into the ointment is not a surprise and even somewhat predictable. I encourage you or anyone else to take action and head into your local Wally World and do the same thing if you don't think I am person for the job. To be clear, it is the "what they don't know won't hurt them" or " "I think they already know" that is unacceptable to me.

 

Forgive me for this, but I just want to deal with real world facts and not conjecture.. yours or mine. If it is possible to obtain explicit permission, I am going to be totally satisfied with that. In fact, it will be somewhat of a relief.

Actually, I think that post was pretty darn constructive. I felt like you were making a mistake and attempted to warn you about it. In my opinion, your posts have been combative throughtout these couple of threads.

 

BTW, I think it's pretty clear that each of us only 'speaks for ourselves'. That's really the purpose of a forum, in my opinion.

 

I take responsibility for quite a few of my posts being direct responses to yours and for the fact that they have degraded to the point of fingernails on the chalkboard on both sides to anyone else who has to sift through them. I'm just as guilty as you are in this.

 

Perhaps it might be productive (and easier for everyone else participating and trying to follow along) if you would stop instigating this type of interaction. I'm more than willing to do the same.

[Mushtang]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

 

I just want to make clear that I am going to only ask the local manager for permission. I actually think that we are all pretty much on the same page as to what would happen if Walmart was approached on a corporate level for global permission and I do not think I want my fingerprints on that nor do I feel I am the person that should be representing GC.com. If it turns out that they request I ask for corporate permission, I will abort as I agree that there is very little good that could come out of it.

 

Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

 

Just for the record, Sbell has adequate permission to speak on my behalf in these forums. Please don't chastise him for doing so in the future.

 

And to answer your question, I'll quote you from the LPC thread on post 379.

 

Let's say someone approached a high level manager at Walmart and asked for permission to lift up a light pole skirt and hide something under it for others to find. Given that it is clearly spelled out behind the little box you check, isn't it logical to assume that someone has actually done this before?

 

That manager has the foresight to go one step further after telling the person he was nuts. He goes to the GC.com website and punches in the zip code of every Walmart in America. They decide they have a very big problem. Big enough to file suit against GC.com, shutting down the site completely until they work things out in court. Meanwhile, the game dies without a home.

 

Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so.

 

So now that you're planning on asking a WalMart manager to hide a cache in his parking lot, I'm waiting for the game to "die without a home".

 

Let me know when you do talk to him so I can be on the lookout for this to happen.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

I would recommend against asking for permission in writing. It is not required or necessary. It also might be just the thing that spooks the manager into not giving permission.

 

Also, I agree with everyone else. I don't believe that it is possible for you to give your best effort to sell a product that you don't believe in.

Thank you for your thoughts but please just speak for yourself. What I do believe in is a well thought out cache and I will be proposing just that. I'm not going to put a one stop LPC anywhere, it's not my particular style and as you correctly pointed out, I'd have a tough time selling that idea to anyone.

 

You really haven't had anything nice or remotely constructive to say to me for over a month now, so you trying to throw a fly into the ointment is not a surprise and even somewhat predictable. I encourage you or anyone else to take action and head into your local Wally World and do the same thing if you don't think I am person for the job. To be clear, it is the "what they don't know won't hurt them" or " "I think they already know" that is unacceptable to me.

 

Forgive me for this, but I just want to deal with real world facts and not conjecture.. yours or mine. If it is possible to obtain explicit permission, I am going to be totally satisfied with that. In fact, it will be somewhat of a relief.

Actually, I think that post was pretty darn constructive. I felt like you were making a mistake and attempted to warn you about it. In my opinion, your posts have been combative throughtout these couple of threads.

 

BTW, I think it's pretty clear that each of us only 'speaks for ourselves'. That's really the purpose of a forum, in my opinion.

 

Then please do not cite consensus then. It comes off like... "we all agree you are whacked."

 

You just explained to me what Mush was thinking when he posted something when I asked him for clarification. That was what I was referring to. More than once, our interaction has been of this nature and in this order. It doesn't lead anywhere but to "nah-nah-nah" and I am growing weary of it.. and I'm guessing others are too.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

 

I just want to make clear that I am going to only ask the local manager for permission. I actually think that we are all pretty much on the same page as to what would happen if Walmart was approached on a corporate level for global permission and I do not think I want my fingerprints on that nor do I feel I am the person that should be representing GC.com. If it turns out that they request I ask for corporate permission, I will abort as I agree that there is very little good that could come out of it.

 

Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

 

Just for the record, Sbell has adequate permission to speak on my behalf in these forums. Please don't chastise him for doing so in the future.

 

And to answer your question, I'll quote you from the LPC thread on post 379.

 

Let's say someone approached a high level manager at Walmart and asked for permission to lift up a light pole skirt and hide something under it for others to find. Given that it is clearly spelled out behind the little box you check, isn't it logical to assume that someone has actually done this before?

 

That manager has the foresight to go one step further after telling the person he was nuts. He goes to the GC.com website and punches in the zip code of every Walmart in America. They decide they have a very big problem. Big enough to file suit against GC.com, shutting down the site completely until they work things out in court. Meanwhile, the game dies without a home.

 

Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so.

 

So now that you're planning on asking a WalMart manager to hide a cache in his parking lot, I'm waiting for the game to "die without a home".

 

Let me know when you do talk to him so I can be on the lookout for this to happen.

 

So if I ask you a question.. it is really like asking both of you a question? Sorry, that's a little weird if you ask me not to mention very confusing.

 

Okay.. now to the above quote. Do you understand that I am not asking for permission to hide an LPC? This is just TGB but I don't believe that is something that I could support. I think asking a responsible person to do this -anywhere- is not a productive use of my time. Further, it's my expressed opinion that I don't think anyone in the history of LPCs @ Walmart has ever successfully requested permission for hiding an LPC/CPC on their property. Remember.. our search for the Lone Ranger who did this and us coming up empty? The closest we got was permission at a fishing tackle store.

 

If the manager goes up the chain, it won't be because of my suggestion. I will intentionally omit citing that this type of hide has been done all over the country already because I am afraid he's going to check to see if there is already a global position on this. If you think that asking for permission from the responsible is wrong or going to cause harm to the game... it might be that you should check your own geo-ethics and see how far from center you are.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

 

I just want to make clear that I am going to only ask the local manager for permission. I actually think that we are all pretty much on the same page as to what would happen if Walmart was approached on a corporate level for global permission and I do not think I want my fingerprints on that nor do I feel I am the person that should be representing GC.com. If it turns out that they request I ask for corporate permission, I will abort as I agree that there is very little good that could come out of it.

 

Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

 

Just for the record, Sbell has adequate permission to speak on my behalf in these forums. Please don't chastise him for doing so in the future.

 

And to answer your question, I'll quote you from the LPC thread on post 379.

 

Let's say someone approached a high level manager at Walmart and asked for permission to lift up a light pole skirt and hide something under it for others to find. Given that it is clearly spelled out behind the little box you check, isn't it logical to assume that someone has actually done this before?

 

That manager has the foresight to go one step further after telling the person he was nuts. He goes to the GC.com website and punches in the zip code of every Walmart in America. They decide they have a very big problem. Big enough to file suit against GC.com, shutting down the site completely until they work things out in court. Meanwhile, the game dies without a home.

 

Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so.

 

So now that you're planning on asking a WalMart manager to hide a cache in his parking lot, I'm waiting for the game to "die without a home".

 

Let me know when you do talk to him so I can be on the lookout for this to happen.

 

No sarcasm here.. I am not sure what you mean by "die without a home."

[Mushtang]

So if I ask you a question.. it is really like asking both of you a question? Sorry, that's a little weird if you ask me not to mention very confusing.

That was also sarcasm. I'll try to remember not to use it on you in the future.

 

Okay.. now to the above quote. Do you understand that I am not asking for permission to hide an LPC? This is just TGB but I don't believe that is something that I could support. I think asking a responsible person to do this -anywhere- is not a productive use of my time. Further, it's my expressed opinion that I don't think anyone in the history of LPCs @ Walmart has ever successfully requested permission for hiding an LPC/CPC on their property. Remember.. our search for the Lone Ranger who did this and us coming up empty? The closest we got was permission at a fishing tackle store.

No, I thought you were absolutely asking permission to hide a cache on the property of WalMart. At first I thought you were going to hide an LPC, then I thought it was going to be the first stage of a multi that would end up at a film set. I'll admit that now I have no idea what you're planning on hiding, and what you're going to ask the manager of WalMart for.

 

If the manager goes up the chain, it won't be because of my suggestion. I will intentionally omit citing that this type of hide has been done all over the country already because I am afraid he's going to check to see if there is already a global position on this. If you think that asking for permission from the responsible is wrong or going to cause harm to the game... it might be that you should check your own geo-ethics and see how far from center you are.

I don't think it's going to cause harm to the game. YOU do. You've said so several times. I quoted you saying it in my last post. Please go back and read what YOU said a little closer.

[Mushtang]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

 

I just want to make clear that I am going to only ask the local manager for permission. I actually think that we are all pretty much on the same page as to what would happen if Walmart was approached on a corporate level for global permission and I do not think I want my fingerprints on that nor do I feel I am the person that should be representing GC.com. If it turns out that they request I ask for corporate permission, I will abort as I agree that there is very little good that could come out of it.

 

Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

 

Just for the record, Sbell has adequate permission to speak on my behalf in these forums. Please don't chastise him for doing so in the future.

 

And to answer your question, I'll quote you from the LPC thread on post 379.

 

Let's say someone approached a high level manager at Walmart and asked for permission to lift up a light pole skirt and hide something under it for others to find. Given that it is clearly spelled out behind the little box you check, isn't it logical to assume that someone has actually done this before?

 

That manager has the foresight to go one step further after telling the person he was nuts. He goes to the GC.com website and punches in the zip code of every Walmart in America. They decide they have a very big problem. Big enough to file suit against GC.com, shutting down the site completely until they work things out in court. Meanwhile, the game dies without a home.

 

Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so.

 

So now that you're planning on asking a WalMart manager to hide a cache in his parking lot, I'm waiting for the game to "die without a home".

 

Let me know when you do talk to him so I can be on the lookout for this to happen.

 

No sarcasm here.. I am not sure what you mean by "die without a home."

I'm quoting YOU. See the bold text above.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I wonder how the conversation went with Team Geoblast and his local big box store? I've very curious how that will turn out.

 

You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here.

 

But first, I have some work to do as I need to cook up a good cache that starts at Wally World and ends up someplace spectacular. Mustang... Do you want to see the letter requesting a meeting before I send it? I'd be happy to share so I don't get accused of not giving it the best effort possible.

 

I was thinking calling the cache something like -Worst to First- but I'm not sold on that.

(Psst, there is an h in Mushtang)

 

I don't need to see the letter, or anything else before or after you go. Just let me know when you do go and I'll pay closer attention to the web site, looking for signs of the game grinding to a halt.

 

I just want to make clear that I am going to only ask the local manager for permission. I actually think that we are all pretty much on the same page as to what would happen if Walmart was approached on a corporate level for global permission and I do not think I want my fingerprints on that nor do I feel I am the person that should be representing GC.com. If it turns out that they request I ask for corporate permission, I will abort as I agree that there is very little good that could come out of it.

 

Do I understand your quoted statement to read that "the game will come to a grinding to a halt" if I ask the local manager for permission to hide something on their property? Do you think I am the first person to ever actually do this?

That's a little thing called sarcasm.

 

Just for the record, Sbell has adequate permission to speak on my behalf in these forums. Please don't chastise him for doing so in the future.

 

And to answer your question, I'll quote you from the LPC thread on post 379.

 

Let's say someone approached a high level manager at Walmart and asked for permission to lift up a light pole skirt and hide something under it for others to find. Given that it is clearly spelled out behind the little box you check, isn't it logical to assume that someone has actually done this before?

 

That manager has the foresight to go one step further after telling the person he was nuts. He goes to the GC.com website and punches in the zip code of every Walmart in America. They decide they have a very big problem. Big enough to file suit against GC.com, shutting down the site completely until they work things out in court. Meanwhile, the game dies without a home.

 

Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so.

 

So now that you're planning on asking a WalMart manager to hide a cache in his parking lot, I'm waiting for the game to "die without a home".

 

Let me know when you do talk to him so I can be on the lookout for this to happen.

 

No sarcasm here.. I am not sure what you mean by "die without a home."

I'm quoting YOU. See the bold text above.

 

Okay.. LOL. I got it.

[+Renegade Knight]

....You can rest assured that I won't just barge into Wally World and ask. I will do it right, ask for an appointment, get all dressed up and comb my hair. I will present a good case for allowing it to be put there. I will also ask for a written response so I can share it here. ...

 

There is a lot to be said for taking someone out to drink and getting them drunk and having a good time before you even bring up the subject. When you hit the "I Love you Man" stage of the relationship is a good time to bring up the cache.

 

If you walk in off the street and you don't have an answer to the two questions they are going to be thinking of, you have lost.

 

Question 1. Just how in the hell do you rate?

Question 2. What's in it for Mr. Big Box Retailer?

 

Lastly there are probably a multitude of mucky mucks that can give permission. Just like kids know which parent to ask for the best odds of a "yes" there is a person with authority who will give you those best odds. You may have to take someone not in authority drinking, or maybe just caching.

 

This advice was given Tongue in Cheek but it's got a basis in fact.

 

P$ Wally world allows RV'$ to $tay in their parking lot$ for a rea$on. I'll bet a lot of them are geocacher$ and that even non RV cacher$ would have $omthing in common with those RV folk$. I know when I'm thir$ty and $top for a wally world cache I leave with le$$ money and a quenched thir$t.

[+mikeslomka]

It doesn't lead anywhere but to "nah-nah-nah" and I am growing weary of it.. and I'm guessing others are too.

 

I certainly am.

 

It seems like certain(not all, but some) people who have over a 1000 posts believe that they are entitled to be as rude as they want to others. I don't know, maybe it comes with the 1k decoder ring. I would think that they would want to be nicer to people who want to participate in geocaching, would want to show them the right way to behave. I guess not. I can also see why it's the same few people that participate in the forums. They chase away everybody else. I myself participate WAY more in my regional forums, and I find the people much nicer and much more helpful.

 

Team Geoblast, I for one think that you are doing the right thing. I don't like the whole idea of "implied consent", or the "frisbee rule". I think that permission, means permission. That the cache hider got permission to place a particular cache in a particular location from the owner or land manager of that property.

 

That also includes parks. I think that as geocachers we should be working with the parks to get geocaching allowed and get explicit permission granted for cache placement. What can it hurt to get permission? If you are told yes, then there is never any question that you had the right to be there. If you are told no, then it is also unquestionable that you don't have the right to be there. If you don't have the right to be there, then move on down the road and find a new place to hide your cache.

 

I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers.

 

Think about it. How many citizens will be effected by a ban on parking lot caches? How much money is Walmart will to provide to the councils opponents in the next election? As far as small governments are concerned, geocachers(or any fringe group) are more trouble than they are worth...unless they are shown different.

 

Also, the only law that I've heard brought up so far is trespassing. A case could also be made for littering. The fine for littering in Michigan is $500. That's a pretty expensive cache. And there's not much use in denying it either, since you put your name right on the log, or at least on the cache page.

[+sbell111]

Then please do not cite consensus then. It comes off like... "we all agree you are whacked."

You are correct, I can't claim that everyone thinks that you're whacked.

You just explained to me what Mush was thinking when he posted something when I asked him for clarification. That was what I was referring to. More than once, our interaction has been of this nature and in this order.

I'm not clairvoyant. It was pretty darn clear that he was being sarcastic.

It doesn't lead anywhere but to "nah-nah-nah" and I am growing weary of it.. and I'm guessing others are too.

Actually, I was simply answering your question. It was clear what the answer was and I didn't know if Mushtang would be back soon.

 

BTW, in my opinion, 'nah-nah-nah' would be more like this post.

Edited March 14, 2007 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

So if I ask you a question.. it is really like asking both of you a question? Sorry, that's a little weird if you ask me not to mention very confusing.

Again, this is a forum. You might try PMs or email for personal conversations. If a statement is made in the forum, we should all be able to respond.

... Further, it's my expressed opinion that I don't think anyone in the history of LPCs @ Walmart has ever successfully requested permission for hiding an LPC/CPC on their property. Remember.. our search for the Lone Ranger who did this and us coming up empty? The closest we got was permission at a fishing tackle store.

First of all, it was your 'search'. Second, just because none of the half a dozen responders specifically asked permission of Wal-Mart for their caches doesn't mean it hasn't been done. In reality, I'm pretty sure that none of the responders actually owned a cache placed on Wal-Mart's property. Third, the closest we got, as I recall, was a cache on the property of a regional grocery store. That's pretty close.

If the manager goes up the chain, it won't be because of my suggestion. I will intentionally omit citing that this type of hide has been done all over the country already because I am afraid he's going to check to see if there is already a global position on this. If you think that asking for permission from the responsible is wrong or going to cause harm to the game... it might be that you should check your own geo-ethics and see how far from center you are.

That wasn't a personal attack, was it?

[+sbell111]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

[Mushtang]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

And then I'd go to someone at Target and say, "There's this game we play that sometimes uses parking lots. WalMart doesn't want us to play there so we're not going to bother them anymore. Can we play here?"

[+Team GeoBlast]

It doesn't lead anywhere but to "nah-nah-nah" and I am growing weary of it.. and I'm guessing others are too.

 

I certainly am.

 

It seems like certain(not all, but some) people who have over a 1000 posts believe that they are entitled to be as rude as they want to others. I don't know, maybe it comes with the 1k decoder ring. I would think that they would want to be nicer to people who want to participate in geocaching, would want to show them the right way to behave. I guess not. I can also see why it's the same few people that participate in the forums. They chase away everybody else. I myself participate WAY more in my regional forums, and I find the people much nicer and much more helpful.

 

Team Geoblast, I for one think that you are doing the right thing. I don't like the whole idea of "implied consent", or the "frisbee rule". I think that permission, means permission. That the cache hider got permission to place a particular cache in a particular location from the owner or land manager of that property.

 

That also includes parks. I think that as geocachers we should be working with the parks to get geocaching allowed and get explicit permission granted for cache placement. What can it hurt to get permission? If you are told yes, then there is never any question that you had the right to be there. If you are told no, then it is also unquestionable that you don't have the right to be there. If you don't have the right to be there, then move on down the road and find a new place to hide your cache.

 

I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers.

 

Think about it. How many citizens will be effected by a ban on parking lot caches? How much money is Walmart will to provide to the councils opponents in the next election? As far as small governments are concerned, geocachers(or any fringe group) are more trouble than they are worth...unless they are shown different.

 

Also, the only law that I've heard brought up so far is trespassing. A case could also be made for littering. The fine for littering in Michigan is $500. That's a pretty expensive cache. And there's not much use in denying it either, since you put your name right on the log, or at least on the cache page.

 

Thanks .

 

I really doubt that I am ever going to qualify for the decoder ring either. I like to do things other things too much. For example geocaching.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[+Team GeoBlast]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

And then I'd go to someone at Target and say, "There's this game we play that sometimes uses parking lots. WalMart doesn't want us to play there so we're not going to bother them anymore. Can we play here?"

 

I think it would be great discussion if you or someone else in your camp would do this. If you get granted permission, I would probably go out of my way to shop at their store too.

[Mushtang]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

And then I'd go to someone at Target and say, "There's this game we play that sometimes uses parking lots. WalMart doesn't want us to play there so we're not going to bother them anymore. Can we play here?"

 

I think it would be great discussion if you or someone else in your camp would do this. If you get granted permission, I would probably go out of my way to shop at their store too.

I'm waiting on you to contact WalMart and get geocaching kicked off their property. Edited March 14, 2007 by Mushtang

[+sbell111]

My wife and I prefer Target anyway.

[Mushtang]

Do you understand that I am not asking for permission to hide an LPC? This is just TGB but I don't believe that is something that I could support. I think asking a responsible person to do this -anywhere- is not a productive use of my time.

So can you clear something up, and tell me what it is you are going to talk to the WalMart manager about?

[+Team GeoBlast]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

 

I spoke an attorney (a relative) about this very scenario. He asked me if GC.com kept track of every CPC that is placed on Walmart property and I said didn't think so.

 

Looking at this as a "law problem" he surmised that the lack of documentation of validation of the land owner where caches are placed is a big barrier to a quick and agreeable resolution, that is if he was working for WalMart. The fact nobody currently knows who the property owners are makes it basically untrackable and very hard to measure compliance with any type of a hypothetical cease and desist order from the hypothetical court we are discussing.

 

I really personally doubt that it is possible to archive all CPC on their property in one day as you suggest. In fact, I'd guess that there's a double digit percentage of those hides that are orphaned. He said he would propose a short window for -proof of removal- as he requested in the suit and then press hard for an injunction to shut down GC.com until they were able to supply proof.

 

For the record, I did ask him to come in here and talk about this but he said his rate is $250.00 an hour. <sigh>

 

I think this is all speculation personally but it is a very good reason to actually obtain permission to do it. It shows good faith.. something that is currently lacking from geocachers placing these caches on their property.

 

Again, if someone has already done it...just once, let's hear from you.

[+Team GeoBlast]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

And then I'd go to someone at Target and say, "There's this game we play that sometimes uses parking lots. WalMart doesn't want us to play there so we're not going to bother them anymore. Can we play here?"

 

I think it would be great discussion if you or someone else in your camp would do this. If you get granted permission, I would probably go out of my way to shop at their store too.

I'm waiting on you to contact WalMart and get geocaching kicked off their property.

 

Help me out.. are you serious. Not being snarky...I honestly don't know anymore. If you are, then was it you or your twin that keeps suggesting that "they already know?"

[+Team GeoBlast]

Do you understand that I am not asking for permission to hide an LPC? This is just TGB but I don't believe that is something that I could support. I think asking a responsible person to do this -anywhere- is not a productive use of my time.

So can you clear something up, and tell me what it is you are going to talk to the WalMart manager about?

 

I have some work to do before it is a complete idea but what I am thinking about is to ask permission for the least obtrusive hide possible, just coordinates in a container, as a first stage of a multi cache.

[Mushtang]

Help me out.. are you serious. Not being snarky...I honestly don't know anymore. If you are, then was it you or your twin that keeps suggesting that "they already know?"

This is a summary (no snarkiness intended) of our conversation on the subject over the two threads:

 

TGB: If WalMart knew about the LPCs they'd sue and shut down the game

Me: I doubt it.

TGB: All LPCs should have permission.

Me: What makes you think they don't?

TGB: If someone dared to ask, the manager might get corporate involved and there would be trouble.

Me: I doubt it.

TGB: If someone hasn't asked, I think I'll ask if I can hide one to show once and for all what happens.

Me: Knock yourself out. I'll watch and see if they shut the game down.

TGB: Why would they shut the game down?

Me: You said they would do that if someone asked to hide a cache.

TGB: Do you understand I'm not asking them if I can hide one?

Me: Huh? What is it that you're going to do then?

TGB: (crickets)

Me (to someone else): If WalMart says no, we should talk to Target

TGB: Good idea, you should do that

Me: I'm waiting for you to involve WalMart and have them say no.

TGB: Aren't you the one that says they already know?

[Mushtang]

Do you understand that I am not asking for permission to hide an LPC? This is just TGB but I don't believe that is something that I could support. I think asking a responsible person to do this -anywhere- is not a productive use of my time.

So can you clear something up, and tell me what it is you are going to talk to the WalMart manager about?

 

I have some work to do before it is a complete idea but what I am thinking about is to ask permission for the least obtrusive hide possible, just coordinates in a container, as a first stage of a multi cache.

I thought you were talking about asking them for explicit permission to hide a CPC to prove a point about how Big Box Stores, specifically WalMart, would react.

[+sbell111]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

I spoke an attorney (a relative) about this very scenario. He asked me if GC.com kept track of every CPC that is placed on Walmart property and I said didn't think so.

 

Looking at this as a "law problem" he surmised that the lack of documentation of validation of the land owner where caches are placed is a big barrier to a quick and agreeable resolution, that is if he was working for WalMart. The fact nobody currently knows who the property owners are makes it basically untrackable and very hard to measure compliance with any type of a hypothetical cease and desist order from the hypothetical court we are discussing.

 

I really personally doubt that it is possible to archive all CPC on their property in one day as you suggest. In fact, I'd guess that there's a double digit percentage of those hides that are orphaned. He said he would propose a short window for -proof of removal- as he requested in the suit and then press hard for an injunction to shut down GC.com until they were able to supply proof.

 

For the record, I did ask him to come in here and talk about this but he said his rate is $250.00 an hour. <sigh>

 

I think this is all speculation personally but it is a very good reason to actually obtain permission to do it. It shows good faith.. something that is currently lacking from geocachers placing these caches on their property.

 

Again, if someone has already done it...just once, let's hear from you.

Didn't you say all that in the other thread? After wards didn't several people reply to it? Don't I recall several comments about lawyers not agreeing amonst themselves? Are we really going to relive the entire other thread? If so, why was a new thread started?

[+sbell111]

... I don't really care one way or the other about LPC's or other similar caches. What I do care about is being able to continue to cache. It's better to ask first, then to incur the anger of some business owner or corporation and make it difficult everywhere. Businesses carry a lot of weight with city councils and other local governments. You can bet that if Walmart went to most cities and said that they were having problems with caching, and they wanted a city ordinance banning it in parking lots, a lot of the cities would give in to them. Why? Because it's easier than not making an ordinance and angering their biggest tax payers. ...

Why do you think that Wal-Mart would take the most expensive and complicated solution to the problem? The reality of it is that they would make one telephone call to TPTB. TPTB would put the work out to the reviewers and every cache on Wal-Mart property would be archived the next day. Wal-Mart wouldn't be fighting for legislation because it would cause bad press that would cost them shoppers. They won't sue Groundspeak because the issue would already be resolved to their pleasure.

And then I'd go to someone at Target and say, "There's this game we play that sometimes uses parking lots. WalMart doesn't want us to play there so we're not going to bother them anymore. Can we play here?"

I think it would be great discussion if you or someone else in your camp would do this. If you get granted permission, I would probably go out of my way to shop at their store too.

I'm waiting on you to contact WalMart and get geocaching kicked off their property.

Help me out.. are you serious. Not being snarky...I honestly don't know anymore. If you are, then was it you or your twin that keeps suggesting that "they already know?"

Wow. Sarcasm is not your thing.

 

Anyway, the premise was that your request would backfired and Wal-Mart would kick all the caches off their properties. Once that was done, he would approach Target. You then suggested that he go do this. To which he replied that he can't, since caches being kicked out of Wal-Mart would be required for his plan to go into effect.

[+tozainamboku]

Are we really going to relive the entire other thread? If so, why was a new thread started?

I started the new thread because I got tired of all the threads about banning caches. Frankly, it wouldn't bother much if all the LPCs or CPCs were banned tommorrow. I'll admit that while they're not my favorite, sometimes I like that there is a cache in that parking lot I can grab for a quick smiley. However, I tend to agree with sbell111, Mushtang, and others that people get some enjoyment from these caches because they keep finding and hiding them. They are certainly found a lot more often than any of the caches I've hidden. Banning caches because you think they're lame or that nobody could possibly like them is wrong.

 

What happens in other threads is that the anti-LPC/CPC forces try to bring up other reasons for banning or limiting these caches. Sometimes they make a point that may indicate a real potential problem in these caches. In the other thread I tried to argue that if these are problems they are not just problems of LPCs and should be discussed in their own thread without the usually rhetoric about banning caches.

 

Mostly, I'm happy with the results. This thread had turned to a discussion of what is adequate permission and if that means asking someone then who to ask and how to approach them. This is useful information for geocachers who are thinking of hiding a cache a big box store.

 

For the most part sbell111 and Mushtang are continuing to make the case for not needing to ask anyone (or at least an argument that the worse that will happen is that store will ask geocaching.com to archive the cache and not the demise of geocaching). This is fine. I don't think we will ever have consensus on what adequate means, I just wanted people to think about it when they check that box on the cache submittal form.

 

My one objection is that both sides want to use the argument technique of quoting the other side out of context. In order to protect themselves, both sides have now taken to quoting the other posts so we are getting long posts of quoted posts. Its really annoying to me to have to scroll through all the quotes to see what you guys are saying. Not only are we reliving the entire other thread, we are reliving both threads over and over again in every post.

Edited March 14, 2007 by tozainamboku