Please Keep Extraneous Materials out of Caches.

[+vaetanone]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but as an owner of several caches, let me suggest that Religious, social and political items do not belong in caches. When they are found in mine they are promptly removed, whether I agree or disagree with the views expressed. Can't we just get along and keep caching as a hobby free of the contentious aspects of society? If you feel the need to discuss these subjects, please do it elsewhere. Thanks.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Depends on what the item is, I had a finder leave a church coin in one of my caches, I hiked back and looked at it and it was a very beautiful coin. I left it and the next cacher took it, no harm done.

[+PJPeters]

Not quite on the same level as what you're experiencing, but today, I removed from caches:

• Empty plastic .22 ammo container (from within an ammo can)
  
• Starbucks Coffee cup sleeve (from a cache in the woods)
  
• Golf ball that took up about 1/2-2/3 of the cache container
  
• 1/2 of a McToy (the other part wouldn't have fit there)
  

Garbage doesn't belong in a cache, either!

[+ReadyOrNot]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but as an owner of several caches, let me suggest that Religious, social and political items do not belong in caches. When they are found in mine they are promptly removed, whether I agree or disagree with the views expressed. Can't we just get along and keep caching as a hobby free of the contentious aspects of society? If you feel the need to discuss these subjects, please do it elsewhere. Thanks.

 

If you don't like something that is in a cache, remove it and replace it with something better... If religious material makes your skin burn, put on some rubber gloves and remove it, then drop a McToy in there or something... What's the big deal?

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but as an owner of several caches, let me suggest that Religious, social and political items do not belong in caches. When they are found in mine they are promptly removed, whether I agree or disagree with the views expressed. Can't we just get along and keep caching as a hobby free of the contentious aspects of society? If you feel the need to discuss these subjects, please do it elsewhere. Thanks.

Discussing your views on these things in the fourms is also contentious. However that's what forums are for.

 

Anymore I look at it as carbon baking. Doing our part to help global warming. Then you go and put it into the landfill where it can turn into methane which is worse than C02 for causing global warming.

 

Thanks. Just Thanks.

 

PS. As signature items these items are valid even if you don't happen to like them. Signature items represent the person who leaves them. Not the tastes of the person who finds them.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Why do people get so worked up over religious trinkets? Are people afraid that they might be "converted" against their will, like being bitten by a vampire? Are they trying to deny the spiritual aspect of their lives, but something inside just won't go away?

 

Are we no more than animals? If so, then aren't toys and hobby materials equally ridiculous because the only thing important in life is survival?

 

If there is a social, spiritual, and political aspect of life, why be upset at its expression?

 

What DO we put in a cache to which someone will not take offence?

 

Religion and politics are part of life. It is much better to learn to enjoy them or, if you choose not to accept their premises, to laugh at them rather than to try to ban them or expect others to give them up. You will be doomed to failure.

 

Religion, politics, and the weather are all not going away. Deal with it.

 

If you want a world without controversy, you need to pick out the sole survivor and destroy all others. That's the only way it can work. (Just don't pick someone with a split personality.)

[+Snoogans]

Why do people get so worked up over religious trinkets? Are people afraid that they might be "converted" against their will, like being bitten by a vampire? Are they trying to deny the spiritual aspect of their lives, but something inside just won't go away?

 

Are we no more than animals? If so, then aren't toys and hobby materials equally ridiculous because the only thing important in life is survival?

 

If there is a social, spiritual, and political aspect of life, why be upset at its expression?

 

What DO we put in a cache to which someone will not take offence?

 

Religion and politics are part of life. It is much better to learn to enjoy them or, if you choose not to accept their premises, to laugh at them rather than to try to ban them or expect others to give them up. You will be doomed to failure.

 

Religion, politics, and the weather are all not going away. Deal with it.

 

If you want a world without controversy, you need to pick out the sole survivor and destroy all others. That's the only way it can work. (Just don't pick someone with a split personality.)

 

 

Bravo! Well said.

 

 

I enjoy looking through the things people find fit to leave in a cache. I have removed obvious trash and marveled at many things that another person would get upset about.

 

 

I leave the religious tracts alone, but I will remove most of them if there are more than three of the same exact tract. I'm Agnostic, but I have neat little collection of "Hater of God" tracts that have been left on my car, because it sports a Darwin Fish. I don't feel the least bit threatened by religion, but some religious folks feel threatened by me. That's too bad, but their tracts are great entertainment.

 

 

My prize among tracts is my Sweet Potato tract that Wimseyguy gave me at GW3.

 

 

My favorite piece of political swag is a sticker that says, "Buck Fush."

[+Renegade Knight]

...Are they trying to deny the spiritual aspect of their lives, ...

 

Truth be told, I think the fact that some people get worked up is proof that they do have a spirit and soul.

 

The true athiest would see these things and it would be like water off ducks back.

 

Ditto on the political. People realize it's important, thats why they get worked up.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I leave the religious tracts alone, but I will remove most of them if there are more than three of the same exact tract.

Too much of anything is not good.

 

When you find several of the same propaganda, there is little doubt that they were not put there just for fun, but because someone is trying to hawk their wares.

 

I consider a big difference between tracts and leaflets and trinkets, too.

 

Tracts and leaflets are obvious attempts to "sell" something and while they should not be considered patently offensive and improper for a cache, they aren't the best swag.

 

Trinkets are souvenirs of life. That they might be controversial in nature is part and parcel to the nature of life.

 

Too many of any one thing takes up room that might be used for more interesting swag of greater variety.

[TriptychR]

I interpret placement of items in a cache like I interpret the first amendment: Extreme cases that tromp upon common sense and decency aside, you're aloud to put in whatever you want. But if you're irresponsible, though, and put in a bunch of junk, you better be prepared for deal with the right of others to complain about it.

Edited May 18, 2007 by TriptychR

[+Snoogans]

...Are they trying to deny the spiritual aspect of their lives, ...

 

Truth be told, I think the fact that some people get worked up is proof that they do have a spirit and soul.

 

The true athiest would see these things and it would be like water off ducks back.

Ditto on the political. People realize it's important, thats why they get worked up.

 

 

I disagree. I'm what the wikipedia describes as a Spiritual Agnostic and the religious stuff is truly water off a duck's back for me and those that share my views.

 

 

Atheism is ANTI-Religion. To me a true Atheist IS religious. Their adamant rejection of religion & spirituality is a full time religion in itself, but an anti-religion religion. Given the amount of spiritual symbolism we are bombarded with on a daily basis, I believe you can see my point.

 

 

I've told many people that claim to be Agnostic, yet feel threatened by other people's expression of their religion or spirituality, that they may in fact be Atheist.

 

 

I live most of the year in the Bible belt and religious folks often mistake Agnostics with Atheists.

 

 

One of my mottos is now a smashed coin die, " I'm Agnostic and I wish to God people would STOP thinking that makes me an Atheist!" (psst... If ya want one, come see me at GW5.)

[+Renegade Knight]

...Are they trying to deny the spiritual aspect of their lives, ...

 

Truth be told, I think the fact that some people get worked up is proof that they do have a spirit and soul.

 

The true athiest would see these things and it would be like water off ducks back.

Ditto on the political. People realize it's important, thats why they get worked up.

 

 

I disagree. ...

Since I agree with what you said when you disagreed, that means that I hold a different meaning for the words than you do, but agree on the personaltiy types. I've never met an athiest who didn't care. They were all miltant. But the agnostics...much more calm about it all.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Truth be told, I think the fact that some people get worked up is proof that they do have a spirit and soul.

 

The true athiest would see these things and it would be like water off ducks back.

Truth be told, if an atheist, who by definition is CERTAIN there is no God, is offended by "God" or the mention of the word, heshe is showing hisherself to be offended by something which is NOTHING. How ridiculous is that?

 

The Apostle Paul even wrote about that in his discourse about food sacrificed to idols. ( 1 Corinthians chapter 8 )

 

But it is also true what Snoogans said that generally atheism is a religion of itself. So is agnosticism for that matter.

 

The lack of religious beliefs and also the uncertainty of one's origin and destiny are beliefs based upon one's own personal interpretations of the "facts". Therefore they, too are religions.

 

Whether one wants to admit it or not, one has beliefs that cannot be proven, thus one has "religion".

Edited May 18, 2007 by Confucius' Cat

[+Too Tall John]

Hrm... until the guidelines tell you you can't put something in a cache, you can put what you want in, it seems to me...

 

Oh, btw, what is an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someone who sits up all night, wondering if there is a dog.

[+Knight2000]

If they bother you as the cache owner- then just post that you don't want that stuff in your caches.

 

As long as its in moderation- its just people expressing themselves.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Atheism is ANTI-Religion. To me a true Atheist IS religious. Their adamant rejection of religion & spirituality is a full time religion in itself, but an anti-religion religion. Given the amount of spiritual symbolism we are bombarded with on a daily basis, I believe you can see my point.

 

Your religion is evolution my friend.... When are you going to be willing to admit that?

Edited May 18, 2007 by ReadyOrNot

[+Snoogans]

Atheism is ANTI-Religion. To me a true Atheist IS religious. Their adamant rejection of religion & spirituality is a full time religion in itself, but an anti-religion religion. Given the amount of spiritual symbolism we are bombarded with on a daily basis, I believe you can see my point.

 

Your religion is evolution my friend.... When are you going to be willing to admit that?

 

 

Sorry, I refuse to define the undefinable for you or anyone else. I will not sit smugly and proclaim that those who don't believe the way I believe will burn in my version of hell.

 

 

I take the good from all religion and leave the rest behind. Agnostics are FREE to do that. I worship nothing. Least of all rational science.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Sorry, I refuse to define the undefinable for you or anyone else. I will not sit smugly and proclaim that those who don't believe the way I believe will burn in my version of hell.

 

I take the good from all religion and leave the rest behind. Agnostics are FREE to do that. I worship nothing. Least of all rational science.

 

What you claim to dislike about religion is exactly what you do yourself. Anyone that doesn't believe your religion is irrational... Your words, not mine...

 

I believe we were created from dust by God's hand, you believe we were created from a rock by chance.... Doesn't seem all that different really, does it?

 

*EDIT TO ADD*

Just wanted to add that until you can create life in a laboratory in the fashion you claim that it happened, quit calling it "Rational Science"... Until you do that, it's nothing more than your imagination.

Edited May 18, 2007 by ReadyOrNot

[crtrue]

I was doing maintenance on one of my caches and found a "Learn the ways of Jesus Christ" booklet inside. I had no problem removing it.

 

It's one thing to put something interesting and another to use Geocaching as a pulpit. It's not that I took offense to Christianity, but that someone would use my cache to spread their own agenda. I would have removed a political pin (current -- historic would have been neat) just as quick.

 

To be utterly fair, though, I do admit I would remove something of that nature quicker if I disagreed with it...but I try to be fair and if someone complains, I do my best.

[crtrue]

Sorry, I refuse to define the undefinable for you or anyone else. I will not sit smugly and proclaim that those who don't believe the way I believe will burn in my version of hell.

 

I take the good from all religion and leave the rest behind. Agnostics are FREE to do that. I worship nothing. Least of all rational science.

 

What you claim to dislike about religion is exactly what you do yourself. Anyone that doesn't believe your religion is irrational... Your words, not mine...

 

I believe we were created from dust by God's hand, you believe we were created from a rock by chance.... Doesn't seem all that different really, does it?

 

*EDIT TO ADD*

Just wanted to add that until you can create life in a laboratory in the fashion you claim that it happened, quit calling it "Rational Science"... Until you do that, it's nothing more than your imagination.

 

Well now.

 

Edit:

 

On another note, I might add "created from a rock by chance" is such an obvious misstatement. You see it as chance and as something base, and I see it as such complexity forming from simple things...might I remind you the number of cells in the human body, the amount of atoms in a cell, etc....there's enough complexity there that I am fully satiated with the idea of life coming from these smaller parts

Edited May 18, 2007 by crtrue

[+ReadyOrNot]

Well now.

 

This taken from that article

-------------------------------

The molecules produced were simple organic molecules, far from a complete living biochemical system, but the experiment established that the hypothetical processes could produce some building blocks of life without requiring life to synthesize them first.

 

They did not create life in this experiment.. Far from it... This would be like me finding carbon on mars and then making the claim "Life exists on Mars!!!"... This is the typical bait and switch that I see over and over. I see this in textbooks all the time... Prove natural selection and then make the leap to macro evolution..

 

So again, show me where life was created in a laboratory and you can call it science.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Edit:

 

On another note, I might add "created from a rock by chance" is such an obvious misstatement. You see it as chance and as something base, and I see it as such complexity forming from simple things...might I remind you the number of cells in the human body, the amount of atoms in a cell, etc....there's enough complexity there that I am fully satiated with the idea of life coming from these smaller parts

 

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? In order for life to replicate, there must be DATA.. Even the simplest of life, the single celled organism, contains a HUGE amount of information, which is required for replication. Where did the information come from in the first organism? And why would the organism adapt the necessary processes for replication before the information was available to replicate???

[crtrue]

Well now.

 

This taken from that article

-------------------------------

The molecules produced were simple organic molecules, far from a complete living biochemical system, but the experiment established that the hypothetical processes could produce some building blocks of life without requiring life to synthesize them first.

 

They did not create life in this experiment.. Far from it... This would be like me finding carbon on mars and then making the claim "Life exists on Mars!!!"... This is the typical bait and switch that I see over and over. I see this in textbooks all the time... Prove natural selection and then make the leap to macro evolution..

 

So again, show me where life was created in a laboratory and you can call it science.

 

Science is not proven fact. Science is hypothesis driven. Just because we have the theory and the parts playing into it, but not the final product, doesn't somehow disqualify all that does exist. You see pieces of the puzzle and call it baloney when the picture of the kitten is missing its ears.

 

Anyway, conversely, at least we have some evidence towards what we've hypothesized (I don't say believe because it can change as the evidence changes, which isn't a belief). What can you offer for your beliefs?

[+Too Tall John]

What can you offer for your beliefs?

Statistics.

• Studies have shown that prayer improves the chances of an illness getting better sooner.
  
• Documented, unexplained (by science) "miracles."
  
• The fact that, for the number of people who have had a hand in writing/compiling the Bible over a vast period of time, it is extremely consistent compared to other "anthologies" written by less people.
  

Of course, you can offer your own statistics to support your side. This argument has been going on for centuries, it won't be answered in these forums, and nobody's going to sway anyone by belittling the other's side, but quite the contrary.

 

That, in fact, is where I have a problem with the tracts like the ones I've seen. They talk down to the intended audience, like they are a small child who needs guidance, or that the author is doing you a huge favor because you're going to hell. If the person reading the tract needs to read the tract, they don't think they are going to hell or need any help, so they (like I do when someone's talking down to me) tend to tune it out immediately. Defeats the purpose completely, don'cha think? (See how I tried to bring us back near the topic, which was talking about tracts found in caches?)

[+Snoogans]

Sorry, I refuse to define the undefinable for you or anyone else. I will not sit smugly and proclaim that those who don't believe the way I believe will burn in my version of hell.

 

I take the good from all religion and leave the rest behind. Agnostics are FREE to do that. I worship nothing. Least of all rational science.

 

What you claim to dislike about religion is exactly what you do yourself. Anyone that doesn't believe your religion is irrational... Your words, not mine...

 

I believe we were created from dust by God's hand, you believe we were created from a rock by chance.... Doesn't seem all that different really, does it?

 

*EDIT TO ADD*

Just wanted to add that until you can create life in a laboratory in the fashion you claim that it happened, quit calling it "Rational Science"... Until you do that, it's nothing more than your imagination.

 

 

Hmmmm, Interesting take on my words. Perception IS reality seems to be the theme of the day in my forum debates. I won't argue the minutia of what I did or didn't mean to you. I'm secure in my belief and I'm not the least bit threatened by yours.

 

 

There are devoutly religious people in my family, and among my coworkers and peers that respect my views of the spiritual world even if they don't share them.

 

 

Ironically, I have found greater tolerance for my Agnostic viewpoint among my Muslim friends and coworkers than from one member of my immediate family.

 

 

Question: How does one worship Science?

[+Bunya]

Reminder to self: I really must stay out of these debates.

Edited May 18, 2007 by Bunya

[+Snoogans]

I was doing maintenance on one of my caches and found a "Learn the ways of Jesus Christ" booklet inside. I had no problem removing it.

 

It's one thing to put something interesting and another to use Geocaching as a pulpit. It's not that I took offense to Christianity, but that someone would use my cache to spread their own agenda. I would have removed a political pin (current -- historic would have been neat) just as quick.

 

To be utterly fair, though, I do admit I would remove something of that nature quicker if I disagreed with it...but I try to be fair and if someone complains, I do my best.

 

 

If it's your cache, you can do as you please, but strictly speaking for myself, please don't exercise religious & political persecution in one of my caches.

 

 

I don't wish to dictate to others where they can find inspiration. I'm certain that a tract has changed someone's life for the better somewhere.

 

 

I once found a 4 inch stack of tracts in a TB hotel of mine. A geo-bud of mine was a bit upset about it and was floored when I left 3 of them still in the cache. I explained to him my views and he understood better where I was coming from. I later handed the rest off quite slyly to some Jehova's Witnesses who cornered me on my driveway while I was washing the mud off my truck. The look on their face was priceless when I handed them my tracts after accepting theirs.

 

 

I once found a centerfold of a hot nekkid Asian girl in a cache and traded for it. I now believe that it might have been the Universe trying to send me a message. Notice my avatar.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2007 by Snoogans

[vtmtnman]

I'd say remove the material in question,whether you agree with it or not if that's the way you wish to run your caches.That's the fairest way to deal with it.Personaly if I found that stuff in my cache,I probably would leave it there,or I might pick it up.Hasn't happened yet,so I'll let ya know.

[+flask]

 

 

Atheism is ANTI-Religion. To me a true Atheist IS religious. Their adamant rejection of religion & spirituality is a full time religion in itself, but an anti-religion religion. Given the amount of spiritual symbolism we are bombarded with on a daily basis, I believe you can see my point.

 

 

 

that's just silly. my mom's an atheist. not a casual one, but a considered one. it isn't a campaign or a cause for her; she simply believes that God does not exist. and since there's no point trying to fight the tooth fairy or winged horses or little green men in flying saucers, there's no point wasting time thinking about God.

 

atheism is simply the belief that God does not exist. some people make it a cause. others don't bother.

 

but freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. there's no need to bring religion into governmental agencies, but you have the option of going to a geocache. you have the option of removing religious items or not. it is interesting to me to see what other cachers leave to represent their visit. i've actually read one of those tracts that a certain cacher leaves, and my skin did not burn where i touched it.

 

it also gave me an opportunity to see how some people are thinking about particular issues, which is better than making assumptions based on second or third hand information.

 

if whatever it is doesn't violate safety and decency rules, go ahead and leave it. but please- no pocket lint or toy fragments.

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

The other day, I went to a cache which contained a pocket-sized, battery-powered electric mosquito repeller. I guess someone put that in there becuase they thought it might help me out. I thought the same way so I took it.

 

Perhaps, that's the way to view these religious trinkets as well. If you think it might help you out, feel free to take it. If not, maybe the next guy will.

 

LwM

 

P.S. I don't mean this as some sort of stab at religion, but that mosquito repeller didnt do a darn thing!!! As much faith as I had that it would

 

P.P.S. OK...maybe a slight poke

 

P.P.P.S. Since a link was provided for the experiment where the basic building blocks of life were created in a lab, can you also provide a link to the "Studies have shown that prayer improves the chances of an illness getting better sooner." (Technically, for this to be a valid experiment to prove the God vs Science arguement, wouldnt you need a group who got medicine and didnt pray to cure the illness vs a group who got only prayer and no medicine?)

Edited May 18, 2007 by LivesWithMonkeys

[Dinoprophet]

My prediction: 4 pages by 8PM EDT.

 

My only problem with removing such items is when nothing is left in return. It's still a trade item and may have been exchanged for something else in the first place.

 

This may not apply to piles of tracts.

Edited May 18, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

My only problem with removing such items is when nothing is left in return. It's still a trade item and may have been exchanged for something else in the first place.

 

This may not apply to piles of tracts.

Oh yes. I forgot that part.

 

Agreed!

 

No matter how you feel about the item, if you take something, leave something.

 

On the religious question, would it be OK, if I was a Satanist to leave some sort of satanist trinket?

On the political front, how about if I was a firm believer in NAMBLA? Can I leave NAMBLA literature?

[+geomann1]

The other day, I went to a cache which contained a pocket-sized, battery-powered electric mosquito repeller. I guess someone put that in there becuase they thought it might help me out. I thought the same way so I took it.

 

Perhaps, that's the way to view these religious trinkets as well. If you think it might help you out, feel free to take it. If not, maybe the next guy will.

 

LwM

 

P.S. I don't mean this as some sort of stab at religion, but that mosquito repeller didnt do a darn thing!!! As much faith as I had that it would

 

P.P.S. OK...maybe a slight poke

 

P.P.P.S. Since a link was provided for the experiment where the basic building blocks of life were created in a lab, can you also provide a link to the "Studies have shown that prayer improves the chances of an illness getting better sooner." (Technically, for this to be a valid experiment to prove the God vs Science arguement, wouldnt you need a group who got medicine and didnt pray to cure the illness vs a group who got only prayer and no medicine?)

 

I agree with the general trend of most posters that we should all lighten up. A religous or political item won't hurt anyone and are far better than junk. A few months ago, the my daughter picked out a Jewish dradle from a cache for a trade because she thought it was cool, and as Christian I did not take offense at its presence in the cache. I would hope some day we mature as a society and truly accept diversity as a positive thing.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Gotta wonder about so many folks who 'don't care' getting worked up enough to post every time this comes up, much less repeatedly... obviously you DO care about the issue!

 

I have been to places where expressing your personal beliefs could get you dead.

 

Lots of our military are in such a place right now, have been there or will be going there.

 

Anytime you see or hear political or religious expression you don't agree with think to yourself 'I am so lucky to live in a country where that jerk has the right to speak and publish his stupid beliefs' and move on.

 

Sure, you can argue that belief and state your own, but you can't deny him his.

 

It's but a small censorship step from 'cleansing a cache of offensive material' to book burning... and if your are going to cleanse the libraries will you next cleanse the population?

[+Outspoken1]

Well, I still remember that Geocaching is pretty much all volunteer and works quite well. I am non-religious and often find religious items that people don't even think of as religious (how about angels?). My answer, "so what?" If some little religious trinket helps someone through the day, more power to them. We live in a Judeo-Christian country, so many people are just infused with the Judeo-Christian God. And yes, some of those same people would totally freak-out over Islamic, Satanic or Humanist items. That is the price (if you want to call it that) one pays for living in a tolerant (and sometimes intolerant) society. As far as political, I actually have not seen as much political swag. Maybe it is just the area that I live in. Again, political is going to irritate some people, but again, just let it go.

 

Remember, geocaching is for pleasure. Don't let someone else mess up your day with an innocent (or maybe not) swag. Have fun, folks.

 

Take care,

Outspoken1

[vtmtnman]

My prediction: 4 pages by 8PM EDT.

 

Basically.I can already see this heading there...

[vtmtnman]

Gotta wonder about so many folks who 'don't care' getting worked up enough to post every time this comes up, much less repeatedly... obviously you DO care about the issue!

 

I have been to places where expressing your personal beliefs could get you dead.

 

Lots of our military are in such a place right now, have been there or will be going there.

 

Anytime you see or hear political or religious expression you don't agree with think to yourself 'I am so lucky to live in a country where that jerk has the right to speak and publish his stupid beliefs' and move on.

 

Sure, you can argue that belief and state your own, but you can't deny him his.

 

It's but a small censorship step from 'cleansing a cache of offensive material' to book burning... and if your are going to cleanse the libraries will you next cleanse the population?

Well said.

[+Too Tall John]

...can you also provide a link to the "Studies have shown that prayer improves the chances of an illness getting better sooner." (Technically, for this to be a valid experiment to prove the God vs Science arguement, wouldnt you need a group who got medicine and didnt pray to cure the illness vs a group who got only prayer and no medicine?)

Here you go:

• LINK
  
• LINK
  

As to the underlined part: only if you're a trying to prove the views of Christian Scientists, who don't believe in modern medicine. Personally, I believe God gives every person different skills, like I'm a good listener (or so everyone but my wife tells me ), to others he gives skills that make them a good teacher, and others, skills that lead to medicine, and to ignore any one of those skills is ignoring a gift from God.

[+Too Tall John]

A few months ago, the my daughter picked out a Jewish dradle from a cache for a trade because she thought it was cool, and as Christian I did not take offense at its presence in the cache.

Why would you take offense? After all, Jesus was Jewish...

 

Something I found in a cache last week offended my wife: A bumper sticker saying "I Love to Hate the Yankees!" Me, I put it on my hiking stick...

Edited May 18, 2007 by Too Tall John

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

...can you also provide a link to the "Studies have shown that prayer improves the chances of an illness getting better sooner." (Technically, for this to be a valid experiment to prove the God vs Science arguement, wouldnt you need a group who got medicine and didnt pray to cure the illness vs a group who got only prayer and no medicine?)

Here you go:

• LINK
  
• LINK
  

As to the underlined part: only if you're a trying to prove the views of Christian Scientists, who don't believe in modern medicine. Personally, I believe God gives every person different skills, like I'm a good listener (or so everyone but my wife tells me ), to others he gives skills that make them a good teacher, and others, skills that lead to medicine, and to ignore any one of those skills is ignoring a gift from God.

Thanks for the links. My only issue with those studies as I would prefer one where the one control group had guaranteed no one praying for them.

[+Kbdank71]

Atheism is ANTI-Religion. To me a true Atheist IS religious. Their adamant rejection of religion & spirituality is a full time religion in itself, but an anti-religion religion. Given the amount of spiritual symbolism we are bombarded with on a daily basis, I believe you can see my point.

 

that's just silly. my mom's an atheist. not a casual one, but a considered one. it isn't a campaign or a cause for her; she simply believes that God does not exist. and since there's no point trying to fight the tooth fairy or winged horses or little green men in flying saucers, there's no point wasting time thinking about God.

 

atheism is simply the belief that God does not exist. some people make it a cause. others don't bother.

 

 

I'm an atheist, just like your mom. I simply don't believe. It's not a religion, there is no faith. Do some atheists say "there is no god"? Sure. Do all of them? No. I know a lot of people who think they know what atheism is, and most of them are very wrong.

 

To all those who think that religious tracts and trinkets in caches are no big thing, what would you think if atheistic pamphlets started appearing? Would you leave those also?

 

For the record, I don't care if I come across anything religious. It's not going to convert me, so I just ignore it.

Edited May 18, 2007 by tobpcom

[+Kbdank71]

...can you also provide a link to the "Studies have shown that prayer improves the chances of an illness getting better sooner." (Technically, for this to be a valid experiment to prove the God vs Science arguement, wouldnt you need a group who got medicine and didnt pray to cure the illness vs a group who got only prayer and no medicine?)

Here you go:

• LINK
  
• LINK
  

As to the underlined part: only if you're a trying to prove the views of Christian Scientists, who don't believe in modern medicine. Personally, I believe God gives every person different skills, like I'm a good listener (or so everyone but my wife tells me ), to others he gives skills that make them a good teacher, and others, skills that lead to medicine, and to ignore any one of those skills is ignoring a gift from God.

 

Newer studies cast doubt on the theory of prayer and illness.

[*]LINK

[*]LINK

[+Exocet]

Cache OWNERS get to put in or take out whatever they want. Don't like that? don't find their caches, don't leave stuff in their caches.

 

Don't like what you see in a cache? Contact the owner and/or complain about it in the log.

 

Geocaching isn't actually that complicated.

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

Newer studies cast doubt on the theory of prayer and illness.

[*]LINK

[*]LINK

Again, these studies are also flawed. If you do not know with certainty that the no-pray group is not getting prayed for at all (by friends, relatives, etc.), the studies are useless.

[geofreetoe]

I Believe.

 

http://www.venganza.org/

 

But you can't put meatballs in a cache....

[+sbell111]

I couldn't agree with the OP more.

 

Just a few weeks ago, I found an ammo can cache, popped it open and shoved my hand inside to pull out all the great swag. Unbeknownst to me, some previous finder had traded in a crucifix. All the sudden, I felt a horrible burning. Before I could pull my hand back, I incurred second degree burns. For the rest of my life, I will have to live with that cross-shaped scar on my hand.

 

Why don't people think before placing these dangerous items in caches???

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Gotta ask... how is stating your belief by placing a pamphlet, angel or whatever in a cache any different than stating it here?

 

Talk about 'is it right or wrong to put religious material in a cache?' becomes a reason to state your personal religious belief?

 

If it shouldn't be in a cache should it be posted here?

[+BlueDeuce]

My prize among tracts is my Sweet Potato tract that Wimseyguy gave me at GW3.

 

 

 

On topic: As with any item you find in a cache - Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all. A simple enough mode of operation when you find tracts of any sort in a cache.

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

On topic: As with any item you find in a cache - Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all. A simple enough mode of operation when you find tracts of any sort in a cache.

So, following the "trade up" rule, how many religous tracts equal one sweet potato tract?

Edited May 18, 2007 by LivesWithMonkeys

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

Side note:

 

If anyone knows of any devout Rastafarian geocachers who like to leave religious material in caches, let me know.