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Sour grapes from a TB owner


drat19

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OK, I'm sure this will spur the usual opposing opinions, where one camp says, "You should always help a TB toward its goal if it's been posted" vs. the other camp that says, "You release a TB, you take your chances". The common thread, of course, is the hope that those who pick up your TB log it properly, whether moving toward goal, or not.

 

As you will see, obviously I'm in the second camp as stated above. Here's the TB in question:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=152460

 

As you can see, on March 9 I picked up this TB in Mississippi, and on March 24 I dropped it off in Wisconsin...lots of nice mileage. I properly logged it. As you can also see by the note they posted shortly after my drop, apparently the TB owner was none too happy that I diverted it, feeling that Mississippi is much closer to its Texas goal than Wisconsin. (Guess what, Mississippi isn't that close to Texas, either!).

 

Well, apparently several moves (and proper logs by other TB carriers) later, the TB has gone missing. Also apparently, it's ALL MY FAULT...if it hadn't gone to Wisconsin, it surely would not have gone missing. HUH??

 

I received the following Email from them today, and then following that is my reply to them:

 

- - - begin paste-in of Emails - - -

 

Note from TB owner to me:

 

--This message was sent through http://www.geocaching.com --

 

Just thought I would let you know, our TB is now gone. It never left WISCONSIN!!!! Thanks anyway! I do hope next time you will pay closer attention to where the bug is actually going before you take it! It is very frustrating to have it so close to home and then it get stolen!

 

And then my reply to them:

 

I don't appreciate your "sour grapes" Email. You release a TB, you take your chances. I placed the TB in a cache and properly logged it, and apparently so did others after me, and it eventually got lost/stolen. It happens. I've had TBs go lost/stolen...so has every other TB owner.

 

As for it being "close to home" at one point, and then farther away, first of all there's no assurance that it wouldn't have gotten lost if it hadn't been taken north instead of west, and second of all part of releasing a TB is discovering the unusual path it may travel. You are unrealistic to expect anything else.

 

Grow up.

 

-Dave R. ('drat19')

 

- - - end paste-in of Emails - - -

 

There you have it. Discuss.

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ok, my take on the matter is that you release a bug and you take your chances and it is not unreasonable to ask people to follow the goal.

 

Once a bug is taken 'off course' there is usually little the owner can be about it other than maybe coming into the forums and complaining about it.

 

Responding in kind to an attack or a chastising from the owner might make you feel better but it only leaves two people thinking the other is a jerk.

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ok, my take on the matter is that you release a bug and you take your chances and it is not unreasonable to ask people to follow the goal.

 

Once a bug is taken 'off course' there is usually little the owner can be about it other than maybe coming into the forums and complaining about it.

 

Responding in kind to an attack or a chastising from the owner might make you feel better but it only leaves two people thinking the other is a jerk.

You may well be right about your last point, and I considered that before posting my experience in here. But I went ahead and did it anyway...I was in an "I just felt like it" mood today. Besides, my reputation as a jerk around here was well-established in previous years with my anti-Micro Spew tirades... ;)

Edited by drat19
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TB owners take their chances - period. It is certainly nice to have a Bug be moved "directly" toward its goal...BUT, sometimes backwards is the way forwards. And by that, I simply mean: I once moved a bug a good 30 miles into the country not realizing (until after logging the grab and drop, respectively) that its goal was to "simply" travel the world. And so, after placing the TB way out in no-man's-land and then seeing its goal, I felt a little bad. Although, the next person to grab it (a week or two later) was on their way to Germany and in a few weeks time, the Bug was in Europe. So, the moral, kiddies, is that it only takes that one "bad cacher" to ruin a good bug, but it can also only take one "good cacher" to really move the bug on its way. Who knows where that TB would be right now if I had simply moved it across town to another TB Hotel?

 

Obviously, many of us can grab and drop a Bug without first seeing its online-page. It seems to me that it'd be a good idea for grumpy TB owners to note the TB's goal on the Dog-Tag, or somewhere, if they've a TB with a specific goal...

Edited by JeepinCalifornia
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Say a TB is currently in Iowa and it wants to go to go "west". One cacher takes it to Pennsylvania. How does the complaining TB owner know that it is not going to be picked up next by a person who is heading out to California next week?

 

Perhaps Sour Grapes believes that cachers in Wisconsin are less honest that cachers in some other states?

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So, the moral, kiddies, is that it only takes that one "bad cacher" to ruin a good bug, but it can also only take one "good cacher" to really move the bug on its way. Who knows where that TB would be right now if I had simply moved it across town to another TB Hotel?

To me, there's only one kind of "bad cacher" when it comes to TBs, and that's the cacher that fails to properly log the movement of a TB...any movement.

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Perhaps Sour Grapes believes that cachers in Wisconsin are less honest that cachers in some other states?

Well, maybe about how some WI cachers choose to count Event Log finds (ooh, am I picking at another scabbed over sore on that?? ;) ), but when it comes to single neglectful TB-takers-who-don't-log-'em-properly, I don't think any region has a monopoly on that. :yikes:

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If we find a TB, and there are no instructions as to the goal, or if it's a goal we can help with, we'll take it. If the goal is someplace we can't help with, we'll either leave the TB for the next finder, or if it has been sitting awhile, perhaps move it to a nearby cache with more traffic. Moving a TB 5-10 miles off course is no biggie, but moviing a TB several states further from it's goal? :mad: Not something we would choose to do.

Edited by team moxiepup
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Could not see in the picture on the TB page a tag that would indicate a goal. In that case, just helping it travel is the goal. Oh well!

 

It's in the ziplock, see the "ticket" picture.

 

The best path to a goal is not always a straight line. It wasn't your fault, the bug may still show up someday. But you should have left out the "grow up" part in your email. That's the part that didn't help matters.

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The best path to a goal is not always a straight line.

 

This is true in some cases. An example could be a bug that say, started in Iowa, that wants to travel to New York. If a cacher that is planning on visiting LA picks up the bug, it could be a good thing, as many people travel between LA & NY on a regular basis.

 

But to move a bug several states away to a place that is not a travel "hub"? What is the point? Why move a bug against the intentions of the owner? I don't see what either the owner or the cacher who moves the bug gets out of it. :D It just means it will take the bug longer to reach it's goal and we all know the longer a bug is out there, the odds of it getting muggled are higher. We all know that is a risk of TB ownership, but why contribute to the process?

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Could not see in the picture on the TB page a tag that would indicate a goal. In that case, just helping it travel is the goal. Oh well!

My recollection of that TB was that the bug itself didn't have a goal tag. True, the TB page indicated its goal, but obviously I must admit that I didn't pay particular attention to that when I logged it, moved it, and then placed it and properly logged it again.

 

In any case, "blaming" me for its disappearance simply for the fact that I moved it to a state off the "path" toward its goal was out of line and earned them my reply, IMHO. I do appreciate the alternative points of view here, though; that's why I posted this thread.

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It seems a little unfair to put all the responsibility on the TB owner becuase we are too lazy/unwilling/unable to check a TB's mission before picking it up.

 

Perhaps we should add the TB's goal to our logs when recording the drop, for example;

 

Dropped off 'Bridge Dweller' TB that wants to see lots of bridges

 

That way the next cacher knows from the cache listing what the mission is and whether they can help (assuming they bother to read the past logs of course!).

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It seems a little unfair to put all the responsibility on the TB owner becuase we are too lazy/unwilling/unable to check a TB's mission before picking it up.

The trouble with that is that there are so many bugs that are in caches that haven't been logged there, so it's not always possible to read about a bug's goal before seeing it in a cache.

 

This has always been true, just due to people not knowing how to log bugs or accidentally forgetting to log them, but ever since the poorly-named "Discovered it" option was introduced, the frequency of this issue has increased noticeably. People erroneously use "discover" when they should use "retrieve" or "grab", so when they drop it off into a cache, it's not in their inventory and they can't log the drop correctly.

 

It's also impractical in cases where the bug wasn't in the cache when you read the page last night or this morning, and then another cacher dropped it off right before you got there (a very common occurrence in the first couple of weeks of a cache's lifetime).

 

Also, I disagree that it's unfair to put the responsibility on the TB owner to include the bug's goal, and any specific wishes the owner might have regarding achieving that goal, with the bug when it is released. If the owner has specific wishes, they should be included with the bug. When I see a TB with no tag, I will almost always take it (unless I'm already carrying a bunch of bugs around). I take the lack of tag to mean "either this bug has no goal, or it does have one but the owner doesn't care how roundabout a route it takes to get there."

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"The trouble with that is that there are so many bugs that are in caches that haven't been logged there, so it's not always possible to read about a bug's goal before seeing it in a cache.

 

This has always been true, just due to people not knowing how to log bugs or accidentally forgetting to log them, but ever since the poorly-named "Discovered it" option was introduced, the frequency of this issue has increased noticeably. People erroneously use "discover" when they should use "retrieve" or "grab", so when they drop it off into a cache, it's not in their inventory and they can't log the drop correctly.

 

It's also impractical in cases where the bug wasn't in the cache when you read the page last night or this morning, and then another cacher dropped it off right before you got there (a very common occurrence in the first couple of weeks of a cache's lifetime)"

 

But if we write the goal in the log book when we drop the TH, this is avoided...

Edited by Von-Horst
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But if we write the goal in the log book when we drop the TH, this is avoided...

Not always practical either... if you've dropped a bug and you're standing in the woods signing the logbook, and you're battling swarms of mosquitoes or it's pouring rain or it's so cold that you can barely get your frozen hand to hold the pen, then you just want to write your name and date and get out quickly, saving your wordier text for the online log. Likewise if you're picking one up, and any of those same environmental conditions are true, you may not be able to flip through the pages trying to find a log that mentions the bug and its goals.

 

Why would you want to put the responsibility of re-writing the bug's goals on every single person who drops a bug in a cache, rather than just on the one person who really cares about it?

 

And why would you want to make it so difficult for each new cacher who picks up the bug to find out what the bug's goal is, by having to scan backwards through the book for a log that may or may not be there, rather than having the quick and simple method of glancing at a note attached to the bug?

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...

But if we write the goal in the log book when we drop the TH, this is avoided...

To me it seems more reasonable to just say the goal should be written out and included with the traveler, rather hope people that dropping the bug should state the goal or that people visiting the cache can reconcile whatever may or may not be written in the logs.

 

 

As for drat19's posting, if you knew what the TBs goal was before moving then you should have tried to move it toward the goal if possiable. Having said that I don't see you are responsible for the thing getting lost in WI, being that you have no more control over what the next person (or the next, or the next, or the next) that finds it does with it.

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Writing the goal on the TB or the logbook may not even matter much at all. For instance in our case, our bug was clearly marked where it's goal was to end up. Which happens to be Key West for a family wedding which we will be attending the week of Halloween. It started off in early May, seemed to be moving south and made it's way down to Alabama. Sadly it was picked up by daft19 and taken to MN where it now resides. It looks like if it ever makes it to FL, it will miss us.

 

Sure, it has more mileage, but that's really not the goal and I don't think respectful of the owners at all. IMHO Renegade Knight has the right idea.

Edited by modF
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Writing the goal on the TB or the logbook may not even matter much at all. For instance in our case, our bug was clearly marked where it's goal was to end up. Which happens to be Key West for a family wedding which we will be attending the week of Halloween. It started off in early May, seemed to be moving south and made it's way down to Alabama. Sadly it was picked up by daft19 and taken to MN where it now resides. It looks like if it ever makes it to FL, it will miss us.

 

Sure, it has more mileage, but that's really not the goal and I don't think respectful of the owners at all. IMHO Renegade Knight has the right idea.

You release a TB, you take your chances. I commute between the Gulf Coast and MN every week; TBs go with me unconditionally, and I log their movements properly. You should expect nothing more or less than that.

 

And I also caught your tweak of my GC handle; very mature. As I stated to the other TB owner in my OP: Grow up.

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You release a TB, you take your chances. I commute between the Gulf Coast and MN every week; TBs go with me unconditionally, and I log their movements properly. You should expect nothing more or less than that.

 

And I also caught your tweak of my GC handle; very mature. As I stated to the other TB owner in my OP: Grow up.

 

I just don't get the school of thought which ignores the goals of the owners, but whatever works for ya...

 

As far as the tweak of your handle, that was actually a typo. However looking back and reading your response perhaps it was a Freudian slip.

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You release a TB, you take your chances. I commute between the Gulf Coast and MN every week; TBs go with me unconditionally, and I log their movements properly. You should expect nothing more or less than that.

 

And I also caught your tweak of my GC handle; very mature. As I stated to the other TB owner in my OP: Grow up.

 

I just don't get the school of thought which ignores the goals of the owners, but whatever works for ya...

 

As far as the tweak of your handle, that was actually a typo. However looking back and reading your response perhaps it was a Freudian slip.

Thank you for confirming why I seldom cache anymore. TB carrying is pretty much all I do "actively" anymore; with all this whining I may just have to stop that too. Guess I'll just leave the TB game to all the "discoverers" now, so you can all revel in all your glorious icon stats...whoopity doo.

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I suppose I would be guilty of moving a bug in the wrong direction once in a while. Usually it wouldn't be that far off from its goal if I did. Hey, I enjoy moving bugs around, especially when mine are sitting somewhere.

 

I do think from now on when I plan on going on a long road trip to try and see what a TB's goal is before I remove it. Of course when on the road I won't have internet access to check non attached TB goals. If goal is not attached I will not worry about it.

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We can all help at the very beginning, by telling the folks we teach about caching everything there is to know. We don't all start out knowing everything. We either have to learn it on our own, or depend on the kindness of others to teach us. Educate! :laughing:

The ones that find geocaching on their own will have to get the information somewhere, but those are introduced to it can be told from the start how it works.

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After 6 months of caching I have up to now not inspected the TB pages of caches I intend finding - I just dropped and moved TB's whenever I could, and sometimes found ot afterwards that the TB's moved against their goal. I see now that maybe it is expected that you study TB goals before you go caching. That adds a lot of extra admin and angst to the experience.

 

I say, if you as owner are particular about the goal, then you need to add the goal to the TB tag, otherwise consider it a free for all.

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After 6 months of caching I have up to now not inspected the TB pages of caches I intend finding - I just dropped and moved TB's whenever I could, and sometimes found ot afterwards that the TB's moved against their goal. I see now that maybe it is expected that you study TB goals before you go caching. That adds a lot of extra admin and angst to the experience.

 

I say, if you as owner are particular about the goal, then you need to add the goal to the TB tag, otherwise consider it a free for all.

 

You really only need to look up the TB before you drop it. How hard can that be? If that is too much, then maybe pick up fewer TBs (you can still Discover them).

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I've learned not to set a bug free without a goal sheet of some sort either attached to, or in a baggy with, the bug/ hitchhiker. 1st bugs I launched in Mass., without goals. One ended up coming back to 5 miles from my house! Since then, I include goals.

I'll pick up just about any bug w/o a goal sheet- then check if I can help it along. If it's got a sheet, I'll only take if I can move it along (and personally, I don't 'Discover' bugs. Just not into the numbers game enough I guess). Do kinda get annoyed with my inbox filling with messages from the six people in a group that visited a cache and no one actually moving the bug.....

Edited by rickctroop13
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A couple of years ago while on vacation in Mississippi we picked up a railroad spike that had a TB tag attached. Nothing else with the TB to indicate its goal or that it even had a goal. Just the spike and tag. When we got back to IL to log the TB it was then we noticed the owner only wanted the TB to remain in Mississippi. The owner sent me an email whining that he didn't want the TB to leave MS and inquiring why I took his TB back to IL. I have no idea how the owner expected anyone to know his intentions for his TB without placing some directions in with the TB.

Then again, as others have stated, once the TB is released to the wild they're free to go wherever they go.

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A couple of years ago while on vacation in Mississippi we picked up a railroad spike that had a TB tag attached. Nothing else with the TB to indicate its goal or that it even had a goal. Just the spike and tag. When we got back to IL to log the TB it was then we noticed the owner only wanted the TB to remain in Mississippi. The owner sent me an email whining that he didn't want the TB to leave MS and inquiring why I took his TB back to IL. I have no idea how the owner expected anyone to know his intentions for his TB without placing some directions in with the TB.

Then again, as others have stated, once the TB is released to the wild they're free to go wherever they go.

Those Mississippians...what a bunch of whiners! (hehehehe...see my location, left <--- )

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As you can see, on March 9 I picked up this TB in Mississippi, and on March 24 I dropped it off in Wisconsin...lots of nice mileage. I properly logged it. As you can also see by the note they posted shortly after my drop, apparently the TB owner was none too happy that I diverted it, feeling that Mississippi is much closer to its Texas goal than Wisconsin. (Guess what, Mississippi isn't that close to Texas, either!).

 

Well, apparently several moves (and proper logs by other TB carriers) later, the TB has gone missing. Also apparently, it's ALL MY FAULT...if it hadn't gone to Wisconsin, it surely would not have gone missing. HUH??

 

Obviously, one should never move travel bugs to the Upper Midwest! We had one that wanted to go from New Jersey to San Antonio, Texas to Hollywood. It made it to San Antonio, then diverted to Minnesota, where it disappeared. Umm... Minnesota is not on the way from Texas to California! Likewise, I would like to point out that Mississippi is a lot close to Texas than is Wisconsin!

 

Point is that some people are oblivious to the goal of the TB, and don't really care. SSTB. I followed a bug that want to go to Ireland, and explore the Emerald Isle. It finally made it there! And was taken to England on its next stop. No. It really wanted to visit Ireland.

 

Some people, on the other fin, work hard to help TBs with their goals! I picked one up in Pa that wanted to go to a cache in Mass. I dropped it off twenty miles short of its goal. It spent the next two years wandering abou New Hampshire and Maine! Duh!

 

You puts down your nickel and you takes your chances. But, sorry, Wisconsin is no where near Texas. You done wrong.

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As you can also see by the note they posted shortly after my drop, apparently the TB owner was none too happy that I diverted it, feeling that Mississippi is much closer to its Texas goal than Wisconsin. (Guess what, Mississippi isn't that close to Texas, either!).

Sometimes the quickest trip to a destination isn't in a straight line.

As in life, it's all about the trip and what you see along the way. Sometimes those side trips turn out to be more interesting than the path to the destination.

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Sometimes the quickest trip to a destination isn't in a straight line.

As in life, it's all about the trip and what you see along the way. Sometimes those side trips turn out to be more interesting than the path to the destination.

 

I find that sentiment better for easing the mind of the owner of a wayward bug. It's not a justification for ignoring the bug’s mission.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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I find that sentiment better for easing the mind of the owner of a wayward bug. It's not a justification for ignoring the bug’s mission.

Then read my other post.

"Then again, as others have stated, once the TB is released to the wild they're free to go wherever they go."

Think about it for a second. You turn loose a TB in IA with a destination indicated to go to NYC. The first person who comes along grabs it and happens to be going to NYC so they take it there and drop it. That was a great trip wasn't it? A TB with 2 entries, 1 dropping it and 1 with it arriving. Wouldn't you as a TB owner rather see your TB traveling around a bit to see where it travels enroute to its destination? If all you cared about was getting your TB from IA to NYC you could have mailed it.

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I find that sentiment better for easing the mind of the owner of a wayward bug. It's not a justification for ignoring the bug’s mission.

Then read my other post.

"Then again, as others have stated, once the TB is released to the wild they're free to go wherever they go."

Think about it for a second. You turn loose a TB in IA with a destination indicated to go to NYC. The first person who comes along grabs it and happens to be going to NYC so they take it there and drop it. That was a great trip wasn't it? A TB with 2 entries, 1 dropping it and 1 with it arriving. Wouldn't you as a TB owner rather see your TB traveling around a bit to see where it travels enroute to its destination? If all you cared about was getting your TB from IA to NYC you could have mailed it.

 

You're making the assumption that the TB owner wouldn't be happy with the bug reaching it's goal soon. Once the TB reaches it's goal, the owner can then decide on whether to submit a new goal for the bug, or allow it to roam freely. It's the TB owner's call.

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Chiming in -

 

Why move a bug against the intentions of the owner? I don't see what either the owner or the cacher who moves the bug gets out of it. :) It just means it will take the bug longer to reach it's goal and we all know the longer a bug is out there, the odds of it getting muggled are higher. We all know that is a risk of TB ownership, but why contribute to the process?

Agreed. If you can't help it towards it's goal, leave it be.

 

It seems a little unfair to put all the responsibility on the TB owner becuase we are too lazy/unwilling/unable to check a TB's mission before picking it up.

 

Perhaps we should add the TB's goal to our logs when recording the drop, for example;

 

Dropped off 'Bridge Dweller' TB that wants to see lots of bridges

 

That way the next cacher knows from the cache listing what the mission is and whether they can help (assuming they bother to read the past logs of course!).

I try to do this to help out the owners who don't inlcude goals, or for coins that don't have anything attached.

 

You release a TB, you take your chances. I commute between the Gulf Coast and MN every week; TBs go with me unconditionally, and I log their movements properly. You should expect nothing more or less than that.

I disagree. You take your chances that it will go missing, sure. But you shouldn't have to chance that it's goals will be ignored. Now if there was no goal sheet....that's a different story.

 

I see now that maybe it is expected that you study TB goals before you go caching. That adds a lot of extra admin and angst to the experience.

 

I say, if you as owner are particular about the goal, then you need to add the goal to the TB tag, otherwise consider it a free for all.

No studying required. Just read the goal sheet. But again, if there isn't one then yes, it's a free for all.

 

In short, if you can help a TB along, do. If you can't, leave it alone.

 

If there's no goal sheet, print it out and drop it with the TB when you drop it so at least the next finder can help it along.

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Once the TB reaches it's goal, the owner can then decide on whether to submit a new goal for the bug, or allow it to roam freely. It's the TB owner's call.

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership. Ownership denotes control over an object. The one who releases it no longer has any control.

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