Virtual Caches Armchair caches etc....

November 3, 2007

So all of a sudden I get this Email from Groundspeak to start deleting my logs for virtual caches that I have done the research on and have been awarded credit by the owners to log. Now I'm told if I log these Armchair caches I'm cheating. There are virtual caches worldwide that you just have to answer a question to get credit or do something by where you live and you can get credit. We have done many virtual caches by the rules, we don't take pictures and crop a photo of us in with a GPS to get credit, we do the research. What's wrong with a Virtual cache that the answers can be found on the internet.

If you want someone to go to the site make them post a pic of themselves at the site and get rid of all the questions. We have done 13 to 20 point virtual geocache's and I would rather take a pic saying I was there but I followed the owners and did what they asked. There is a virtual in Disneyland, CA where you have to walk both sides of the park and get the a number or letter answer at the coords but have to visit 15 places to get the find, if you want to get rid of anything you should get rid of those and change them to a picture of you and your family at Disneyland for credit. That's more fair and cheaper than having to go to 2 parks to get the answers.

Unhappily singled out,

Laws of Three

November 3, 2007

I have heard of this, it looks like certain cacher's are being singled out about this. What was once up to the cache owners is now being controlled by what seems like a disgruntled postal worker who is only picking on a few. A lot of people are doing these types of caches. And there is nothing in the rules to say the grandfathered Virtual geocaches cant be done online, Until this changes then you shouldn't have to delete your logs.

November 3, 2007

Clearly Groundspeak is trying to assasinate you . Run while there is still time

~.~Scare Force One

3k · November 3, 2007

And there is nothing in the rules to say the grandfathered Virtual geocaches cant be done online, Until this changes then you shouldn't have to delete your logs.

Sure there is. From the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines:

A virtual cache is an existing, permanent landmark of a unique nature. The seeker must answer a question from the landmark and verify to the cache owner that he was physically at the location.

2.2k · November 3, 2007

This might be one of the reasons virtuals were banned, but if they're not going to archive the grandfathered ones then what's the harm if people want to have fun this way? As long as the cache owners are OK with it I think it's pretty cheesy for GS to ask you to delete your logs.

7.2k · November 3, 2007

Incorrect. When they were being listed, the guidelines read:

A virtual cache is an existing, permanent landmark of a unique nature. The seeker must answer a question from the landmark and verify to the cache owner that he was really there.

7.2k · November 3, 2007

Unhappily singled out,
Laws of Three

Hmmm. Looking at your finds... you have none. Breaking a forum guideline by posting with a sock puppet account are we? Is breaking the guidelines for the site a habit by chance?

November 3, 2007

Virtual Cache Logging Guidelines

Logging a virtual cache find requires compliance with the requirements stated by the owner, including answering the required questions by e-mail to the owner, providing original photos if so requested, etc. Answers to questions, hints or clues should not be placed in the logs, even if encrypted.

This is what I found from the link that was placed from Cache test Dummies. If they are going to treat a few people this way they need to treat all caches the same. So watch what you list you may be next. And from what I have been hearing they are going to start checking to see if you were at the actual caches too. Sound like some Cachers may have problems Ehhhhh the ones that place stickers and replace others caches if they cant find them in 7 mins.

November 3, 2007

.Does it really matter who posts what. Maybe they don't want to be treated and threatened anymore. I heard that they were threatened to lose their accounts for doing virtual's. We pay for our accounts how would you feel if someone sent you an email saying you were going to lose you GC account if you didn't actually go to a virtual site that you could find the answers for online. Its kinda like the ones in Germany where you have to sit and watch for a car. That's a legal find so if I sent you the correct answer would you delete my log. I know if I had virtual's I would ask people to take a picture to prove they were there. If its only a question then an internet find does not break the rules, as stated before. But don't threaten people or write to everyone that the person has done virtual's for and bash them. Thanks not right. How would you feel all of a sudden all the find you found start to disappear including physical cache you actually went to and signed

November 3, 2007

You have a legit complaint. I have ran across countless virtual log entries that simply say "Thanks for the internet find." Are they asking all of the people on GC to delete all of those logs?

In regards to your other side of the argument.....Last night my family (well 3/4th of it) went to Knotts Berry Farm for a special school event for my youngest child. Knotts is only 3 miles from my house and there is a virtual cache there that I would LOVE to get off my list, but they want you to visit 12 different places inside this amusement park and answer a question to each of the legs of this multi. I am expected to pay high-dollar to enter this park and then spend the next few hours looking for these places??? A picture with Snoopy or in front of the Log Ride would have been so much simpler, but not allowed. I did not log this cache nor will I ever, because its beyond rediculous.

You will find MANY bookmarked lists of Couch Potato/Internet Finds/Computer Caches/Google Caches/Rainy-Day finds/Dont have to leave your house to log this find, type of caches attached to alot of the virtuals out there.

I would think as long as you have provided the info that the cache owner is asking for and they give you permission to log, all should be perfectly fine to mark as a find!

November 3, 2007

When you were logging those caches, you had the thought somewhere in you that this was your way of cheating the system. And won't your caching peers be impressed with your find count. But in fact all the people who you were trying to impress were laughing about your find in Nova Scotia but you were really in your lazy boy, and how ridiculous that you cared about your finds so much that you do something that cheap. Do your reputation a favor and delete your false finds. Get back a little respect. Maybe Groundspeak is pointing you down the path of respectability.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Harriet the Spy

November 3, 2007

There are many caches that you are supposed to do from home, There is a welcome to Sweden cache you walk around on your computer till you end up in Sweden. That's a legit find, All finds are legit if you have the right answer. When I had back surgery and couldn't cache I found a link to armchair caches and from then till now what has changed? Nothing, except now somehow you have to prove you went somewhere? What about a family member goes to another country and go to a virtual cache, but you were not there. Why cant you log it as a find? You should be able to and if you think that's cheating then you got some wires crossed somewhere.

November 3, 2007

I personally have read about hundreds of caches, that literally state, you dont have to be present to log this cache!

Alot of those caches require you to do research on the web to answer question you wont find at the site....One example is the California 9-11 (where you are asked to look up a name on the internet to find info about that person) Another one you are asked to watch some webcams until you find a certain type of car and then save that as a picture to post as your proof to log..........neither of those can be done by traveling to the posted coords!

4.5k · November 3, 2007

So all of a sudden I get this Email from Groundspeak to start deleting my logs for virtual caches that I have done the research on and have been awarded credit by the owners to log. Now I'm told if I log these Armchair caches I'm cheating.

I myself find it hard to believe that Groundspeak is behind any of this. It doesn't sound kosher at all since tptb refuse to take a stand on, to me, an even more important issue,,,, the logging of regular caches and events multiple times!

Could it be that these emails are somehow coming from a disgruntled cacher who just really dislikes the practice???

November 3, 2007

So all of a sudden I get this Email from Groundspeak to start deleting my logs for virtual caches that I have done the research on and have been awarded credit by the owners to log. Now I'm told if I log these Armchair caches I'm cheating.

I myself find it hard to believe that Groundspeak is behind any of this. It doesn't sound kosher at all since tptb refuse to take a stand on, to me, an even more important issue,,,, the logging of regular caches and events multiple times!

Could it be that these emails are somehow coming from a disgruntled cacher who just really dislikes the practice???

I think you may be right, If they are going to be hard on people about virtual's they should be equally hard about double and triple logging the same caches. I know the #1 cacher in CA has logged in caches multiple times so how come us small fish are frying and the big fish get away with murder, such as driving up to a cache over the curb and into a park right up to the cache. That's Illegal and they get away with it and caches go missing because of them but no one says anything to them. Or we go to a cache and find 2 or 3 cache containers started from different people cause they couldnt find the cache in 7 mins.

7.2k · November 3, 2007

Does it really matter who posts what.

Yes.

Knotts is only 3 miles from my house and there is a virtual cache there that I would LOVE to get off my list, but they want you to visit 12 different places inside this amusement park and answer a question to each of the legs of this multi. I am expected to pay high-dollar to enter this park and then spend the next few hours looking for these places??? A picture with Snoopy or in front of the Log Ride would have been so much simpler, but not allowed. I did not log this cache nor will I ever, because its beyond rediculous.

If that is what the cache owner wants, then yes. Not all caches are easy. Some people would love that cache. My bet is that it is logged regularly.

7.2k · November 3, 2007

Ah, MissAmerica1, I now see why you are so cranky in this topic. YOU are an internet virtual cache finder yourself I see. Looking at your profile and sorting the finds is quite an interesting thing. You would probably find that virtual caches are really fun -- if you actually visit the site.

By the way, as a virtual cache owner myself, I don't allow internet finds on my caches. You will see a deleted log notification in your email box shortly from one of my virtual caches. Interesting that you found virtual caches in Alaska, Alabama, Minnesota and DC all in the same day.

Edited November 3, 2007 by mtn-man

November 3, 2007

Does it really matter who posts what.

Yes.

Knotts is only 3 miles from my house and there is a virtual cache there that I would LOVE to get off my list, but they want you to visit 12 different places inside this amusement park and answer a question to each of the legs of this multi. I am expected to pay high-dollar to enter this park and then spend the next few hours looking for these places??? A picture with Snoopy or in front of the Log Ride would have been so much simpler, but not allowed. I did not log this cache nor will I ever, because its beyond rediculous.

If that is what the cache owner wants, then yes. Not all caches are easy. Some people would love that cache. My bet is that it is logged regularly.

If you consider 12 times only this year so far regularly then ok. I think that speaks for itself!

14.3k · November 3, 2007

So all of a sudden I get this Email from Groundspeak to start deleting my logs for virtual caches that I have done the research on and have been awarded credit by the owners to log. Now I'm told if I log these Armchair caches I'm cheating. There are virtual caches worldwide that you just have to answer a question to get credit or do something by where you live and you can get credit. We have done many virtual caches by the rules, we don't take pictures and crop a photo of us in with a GPS to get credit, we do the research. What's wrong with a Virtual cache that the answers can be found on the internet.

If you want someone to go to the site make them post a pic of themselves at the site and get rid of all the questions. We have done 13 to 20 point virtual geocache's and I would rather take a pic saying I was there but I followed the owners and did what they asked. There is a virtual in Disneyland, CA where you have to walk both sides of the park and get the a number or letter answer at the coords but have to visit 15 places to get the find, if you want to get rid of anything you should get rid of those and change them to a picture of you and your family at Disneyland for credit. That's more fair and cheaper than having to go to 2 parks to get the answers.

Unhappily singled out,

Laws of Three

The purpose of a geocache is to visit the posted coordinates and find a cache. The listing site has guidelines which those that use the site agree to follow. You seem to have missed both the purpose and the guidelines.

Edited November 3, 2007 by TrailGators

November 3, 2007

Yes but if a Virtual is not at the posted coordinates you have to do the work online, There are many caches that are like that and if you went to the coords you wouldn't find a thing, wouldn't that make you mad to go to a virtual and find nothing. As for the Disneyland virtual cache 48 people found the 13 + way points and most were family's together, some people DNF the cache due to taking about a half of a day walking from one end to the other just for a # or letter.

November 3, 2007

And if you pay $50.00 or more per person for the day do you want to wander to 13 or more waypoints for 1 cache? I can understand if it was a $5.00 entry fee or just the cost of parking but this is for you and your entire family, and say you go and ask just to be let in to do the cache, you would be laughed at and still have to pay, So I can totally understand the reason this cache hasnt been found that often.

November 3, 2007

If that is what the cache owner wants, then yes. Not all caches are easy. Some people would love that cache. My bet is that it is logged regularly.

Exactly, you find out what the cache owner wants and you provide that. Some cache owners want you to actually visit the cache and make that point clear by asking for a picture of yourself and you GPS at the posted coords! Some cache owners do not expect or even want you to visit the actual area, each virtual cache owner is different and expect different things. So, shouldnt this be up to the owner of each particular cache?

14.3k · November 3, 2007

Is it that hard to play by the guidelines that you agreed to follow?

November 3, 2007

Does it really matter who posts what.

Yes.

Knotts is only 3 miles from my house and there is a virtual cache there that I would LOVE to get off my list, but they want you to visit 12 different places inside this amusement park and answer a question to each of the legs of this multi. I am expected to pay high-dollar to enter this park and then spend the next few hours looking for these places??? A picture with Snoopy or in front of the Log Ride would have been so much simpler, but not allowed. I did not log this cache nor will I ever, because its beyond rediculous.

If that is what the cache owner wants, then yes. Not all caches are easy. Some people would love that cache. My bet is that it is logged regularly.

If you consider 12 times only this year so far regularly then ok. I think that speaks for itself!

I have a cache logged less than that, and I call that a success...it's a toughie and that's why the find count is low.

6.4k · November 3, 2007

Is it that hard to play by the guidelines that you agreed to follow?

Apparently so.

6.4k · November 3, 2007

I also suspect that "some people" that amazingly enough appear to have "heard" more detailed info from a 1 post, 0/0 cacher probably are a little closer to things then they let on.

coughbanthesockpuppetcough

14.3k · November 3, 2007

I also suspect that "some people" that amazingly enough appear to have "heard" more detailed info from a 1 post, 0/0 cacher probably are a little closer to things then they let on.
coughbanthesockpuppetcough

Cough, cough....

November 3, 2007

The thing is the guideline state you can log a cache if you answer the question, not until the 2007 revision does it say you have to go to the cache location. I would hate to have to try to get to the International Space station to get a find. Considering I don't have a jet pack, a rocket or Billions of dollars to ride in the space shuttle. But to get credit for that you have to print out a paper and wait for it to go over your head and once it does you take a picture of the paper and your GPS and you get to log it. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, It doesn't break any rules and or guidelines and guidelines are just that if the owner says you have to go to the location takes a picture to log then you do it. It is one thing if it says to get credit send me the answer to this question to log your find you are doing nothing illegal or against Groundspeak rules.

November 3, 2007

Is it that hard to play by the guidelines that you agreed to follow?

Apparently so.

Rules according to who? The GC guidelines do NOT clearly state you must be present for a virtual to log it. One might interpret this, which is fine. However, their are MANY virtual cache owners who seem to read the guidelines differently. Thus, allow google finds and even have taken it to the point that you can NOT log the cache by traveling to the coords. These caches were grandfathered in which means when they were approved as caches, it was ok for one to find the cache this way. How is it now not acceptable to log this find???

I mean seriously it seems as the thread owner is being singled out for what is considered to some as appropriate. Yes some dislike the thought of an internet find and are free to feel as such. But for those virtual cache owners who like people to do the research online and then submit info to them, those should also be considered a rightful find. Its the individual owner of the cache to decide how to run their cache!!!

3.2k · November 4, 2007

The thing is the guideline state you can log a cache if you answer the question, not until the 2007 revision does it say you have to go to the cache location. I would hate to have to try to get to the International Space station to get a find. Considering I don't have a jet pack, a rocket or Billions of dollars to ride in the space shuttle. But to get credit for that you have to print out a paper and wait for it to go over your head and once it does you take a picture of the paper and your GPS and you get to log it. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, It doesn't break any rules and or guidelines and guidelines are just that if the owner says you have to go to the location takes a picture to log then you do it. It is one thing if it says to get credit send me the answer to this question to log your find you are doing nothing illegal or against Groundspeak rules.

While I agree that if the owner lets the log stand it should and I also think this is not GC bothering you, you will find that the ISS cache you mentioned was archived for the very reasons discussed here. It was done some time ago.

November 4, 2007

Yes but if a Virtual is not at the posted coordinates you have to do the work online, There are many caches that are like that and if you went to the coords you wouldn't find a thing,

Those caches are called mystery caches, they have a container with a logbook you have to sign. I don't recall ever seeing a virtual that you had to google stuff prior to visiting it. Could you post a link to one so I may further my understanding?

Virtuals were intended to bring you places that wouldn't sustain a physical container.

You might want to check into Waymarking, all sorts of virts, gps games and locationless caches over there. No containers involved.

November 4, 2007

That may be so But I can go to a bar in OR and play Frogger and post my Height score and get a find so what does that tell you or I can go to Colorado and go to a location where there is no cache and when you read the page says to find a benchmark in your AREA as in your state and find it to get credit. So everyone stop crying about a virtual which is just that virtual not really there. And if you want to allow people to log it that's up to the owner of the cache. If not change the criteria to take a picture. But all this is going to do is make GC get rid of virtual's just like benchmarks and reverse caches and all the fun cache we used to be able to do.

3.2k · November 4, 2007

You might want to check into Waymarking, all sorts of virts, gps games and locationless caches over there. No containers involved.

Unfortunately there are no virts or locationless caches on Waymarking, just waymarks of places visited. Kinda like watching someones home movies on the internet.

The OP is inquiring about caches. Locationless have been archived and virts either archived or grandfathered.

I can't see where GC would get involved since other questionable "finds" (multiple event logs) are ignored.

Edited November 4, 2007 by baloo&bd

November 4, 2007

Actually everything is a virtual. Only they have a new name... waymarks. They are sorted into categories with their own icon. And the locationless are called Waymarking games. Such as a locationless on GC.com was coordinate palidromes. Now its a Waymarking game

http://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx...f0-89a4c226fb1e

November 4, 2007

Here is one you can see GC4609 there is noting at the location and you do it from you home.

14.3k · November 4, 2007

The thing is the guideline state you can log a cache if you answer the question, not until the 2007 revision does it say you have to go to the cache location.

I guess you missed mtn-man's previous post.....

Incorrect. When they were being listed, the guidelines read:
A virtual cache is an existing, permanent landmark of a unique nature. The seeker must answer a question from the landmark and verify to the cache owner that he was really there.

I can't believe you are debating that you don't actually have to visit a location to log a cache. What the heck do you think the GPS is for?

Edited November 4, 2007 by TrailGators

6.4k · November 4, 2007

Is it that hard to play by the guidelines that you agreed to follow?

Apparently so.

Rules according to who? The GC guidelines do NOT clearly state you must be present for a virtual to log it. One might interpret this, which is fine. However, their are MANY virtual cache owners who seem to read the guidelines differently. Thus, allow google finds and even have taken it to the point that you can NOT log the cache by traveling to the coords. These caches were grandfathered in which means when they were approved as caches, it was ok for one to find the cache this way. How is it now not acceptable to log this find???

I mean seriously it seems as the thread owner is being singled out for what is considered to some as appropriate. Yes some dislike the thought of an internet find and are free to feel as such. But for those virtual cache owners who like people to do the research online and then submit info to them, those should also be considered a rightful find. Its the individual owner of the cache to decide how to run their cache!!!

The guidelines that virtual caches were listed under (that mtn-man linked to earlier), the guidelines that the cache owners agreed to follow to have a virtual cache listed most certainly did say that you needed to physically visit the cache to log it. The cache owner also agreed to delete any bogus cache logs; ie any from people that did not actually visit the location. No, you your sockpuppet account was not singled out, several other cachers have reported getting the same types of emails. Many other cache owners have either been told to delete the bogus logs, or even had their caches archived for allowing lots of internet finds.

November 4, 2007

Virtual Cache Logging Guidelines

Logging a virtual cache find requires compliance with the requirements stated by the owner, including answering the required questions by e-mail to the owner, providing original photos if so requested, etc. Answers to questions, hints or clues should not be placed in the logs, even if encrypted.

This is what I found from the link that was placed from Cache test Dummies. If they are going to treat a few people this way they need to treat all caches the same. So watch what you list you may be next. And from what I have been hearing they are going to start checking to see if you were at the actual caches too. Sound like some Cachers may have problems Ehhhhh the ones that place stickers and replace others caches if they cant find them in 7 mins.

Do you not get it, There are 2 rules, the rules for a virtual and how to log a virtual and above says how to log it, NOWHERE does it say you have to go to the location and prove you were there since there is no physical cache container with a log to sign.

7.3k · November 4, 2007

Here is one you can see GC4609 there is noting at the location and you do it from you home.

You're supposed to go out and find a benchmark. Not sit at home and log a smiley for internet research.

When you locate the Benchmark, take a picture of it, and post it with your cache log.

November 4, 2007

What you all are quoting is what a "Virtual Cache is supposed to be" but what I have been writing is what it says to LOG a Virtual find. So both Mine and your interpretations are both correct. So You don't have to go to the location as long as you answer the owners questions. And a virtual should be something that doesn't move such as a marker or such so people may find it, but for the caches that are virtual's and not puzzles that are not at any location they are still to be logged as a virtual log on GC.com.

November 4, 2007

Here is one you can see GC4609 there is noting at the location and you do it from you home.

You're supposed to go out and find a benchmark. Not sit at home and log a smiley for internet research.

When you locate the Benchmark, take a picture of it, and post it with your cache log.

What part is hard for you to understand, The fact that there is no cache at that location and that you have to do the research at home and then go find a benchmark near your home, This is an Example of a Virtual cache that has nothing at the location. Wouldn't you be a bit miffed if you went to this location only to discover nothing there. I know I would, Its not a puzzle and its just an example of a empty virtual.

6.4k · November 4, 2007

Virtual Cache Logging Guidelines

Logging a virtual cache find requires compliance with the requirements stated by the owner, including answering the required questions by e-mail to the owner, providing original photos if so requested, etc. Answers to questions, hints or clues should not be placed in the logs, even if encrypted.

This is what I found from the link that was placed from Cache test Dummies. If they are going to treat a few people this way they need to treat all caches the same. So watch what you list you may be next. And from what I have been hearing they are going to start checking to see if you were at the actual caches too. Sound like some Cachers may have problems Ehhhhh the ones that place stickers and replace others caches if they cant find them in 7 mins.

Do you not get it, There are 2 rules, the rules for a virtual and how to log a virtual and above says how to log it, NOWHERE does it say you have to go to the location and prove you were there since there is no physical cache container with a log to sign.

Nowhere?

From the same link you quoted:

Virtual Caches

A virtual cache is an existing, permanent landmark of a unique nature. The seeker must answer a question from the landmark and verify to the cache owner that he was physically at the location.

And while we are talking rules and guidelines, I gotta think that your sockpuppet account pimping your commercial geocoin company goes against many of the forum rules.

3.5k · November 4, 2007

Considering there are no less than THREE sock puppets posting on this thread (and all amazingly enough in agreement with each other) I'm going to go ahead and lock this one down (there are guidelines about sock puppets too).

If you're interested in actual honest and upfront dialog on this topic instead of stacking the deck with your socks, feel free to post a new topic.

Bret

Virtual Caches Armchair caches etc....

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