FTF deleted--Not found during park hours!

February 21, 2008

The owner of GC19GW9 deleted a first to find log because the "first to finder" made the find during a local park's "closed" hours. I think this is bull. Am I wrong here? Are cache owners police officers now?

1.4k · February 21, 2008

It is their cache and they can delete logs they feel do not meet their logging requirements.

38.2k · February 21, 2008

Good for the owner. If more people had the guts to do that, maybe these rogue caches would get the message.

10.1k · February 21, 2008

I say: Good for the cache owner!!!!

18.9k · February 21, 2008

Good for the owner!!! Breaking the law for a cache should be discouraged in every way.

14.3k · February 21, 2008

I have to agree with everyone here. No cache is worth breaking the law and possible jeopardize our priviledge to cache in a park.

February 21, 2008

From Google maps, it looks like the cache can be accessed without entering the park. The logs the original FTF posted claimed that they accessed it from outside the park, so I looked.

Cache on Google Maps Zoom in and look at Hybrid view.

7.3k · February 21, 2008

Very nice move on the cache owner's part, and a nice follow up log by the not quite FTFer as well.

1.5k · February 21, 2008

Maps sometimes will not show the correct area, I once had a cache in a park and every map showed it off the park land.

That being said...

It is better to be caught by a cache cop then the real cops any day...not say cache cops are good or anything

February 21, 2008

The FTF breaks the law and he/she thinks it's bull?!?!?!

YAY FOR THE CACHE OWNER!

It's cachers like the FTF who make us all look bad, and it's cachers like the cache owner who are a credit to our sport when the trouble hits.

THANK YOU CACHE OWNER!!!!!!

February 21, 2008

From Google maps, it looks like the cache can be accessed without entering the park. The logs the original FTF posted claimed that they accessed it from outside the park, so I looked.

Cache on Google Maps Zoom in and look at Hybrid view.

The only problem I have with this logic is, who's property would you have to possibly trespass on to retrive the cache "outside the park?" The hider most likely (at least we hope) got permission from the park manager to place the cache in the park, not permission from the landowner nearby for cachers to be on their land. Also, the original FTF attemptee states that they DID go into the park after hours if I'm reading it correctly. I think the cache owner was well within their rights.

February 21, 2008

Rod - Where are you and how come you're not all over this one?

Well, I have to say the cache owner did give everyone a great heads up about the park hours. Too bad the FTFer didn't read the cache page better. Otherwise they might have done things differently.

No matter what the cache owner says, the true FTF is the first one to sign the cache log book.

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

February 21, 2008

Another voice to support the cache owner. There is a reason a cacher owner puts information on the cache sheet. Not adhering such information posted could result in the cache having to be removed and the park being put off limits to geocachers. It only takes one to spoil it for all.

February 21, 2008

If they actually signed the log at the cache - then it's a FTF - but apparently after park hours and trespassing, so kind of shady. =/ but if someone is just posting a log for the sake of claiming FTF and didn't actually go, the CO has all the rights in the world to delete it... it takes away from the game and not fair to others.

2.2k · February 21, 2008

...

Edited February 21, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

19k · February 21, 2008

Are cache owners police officers now?

Yeah, some are.

19k · February 21, 2008

From Google maps, it looks like the cache can be accessed without entering the park. The logs the original FTF posted claimed that they accessed it from outside the park, so I looked.

Cache on Google Maps Zoom in and look at Hybrid view.

I can't say for sure, but it appears that any other route to it may be on private property.

February 21, 2008

... Even though the online log was deleted, the cache was still technically found already, no?

I would say No, and compare the cacher who did not wait until the park opened with a runner with a false start. Even if the runner with the false start crossed the finish line, the race had not officially started so he could not be the winner. Didn't wait until the park opened, no FTF.

2.2k · February 21, 2008

After reading the cache page, i'm left wondering how the owner can determine who found the cache first? At least the 2nd to find had the decency to recognize this fact. Even the FTF who got the log removed was cordial and pleasant about the whole experience. Kudos to the cache finders. BOO! to the cache owner.

February 21, 2008

From the cache page:

Nice little neighborhood park. Very peaceful, and a great place to watch the sunset. Views toward the Tucson Mountains. Again, one of those areas I didn’t know existed until I stumbled on it. Cache has log and a few small items. Need to bring your own writing implement.

Park Hours: 7:00 AM to Dusk. Typical rules apply – no golfing, dogs need be on a leash, no alcohol.

Not such a great place to watch a sunset if you have to hightail it out of the park before the sun has completely set.

Edit: added quote box

Edited February 21, 2008 by Cedar Grove Seekers

2.2k · February 21, 2008

... Even though the online log was deleted, the cache was still technically found already, no?

I would say No, and compare the cacher who did not wait until the park opened with a runner with a false start. Even if the runner with the false start crossed the finish line, the race had not officially started so he could not be the winner. Didn't wait until the park opened, no FTF.

First to find is not a race. Its not an award, it's a simple statement of fact. "First to find". Not "Second to find", but FIRST. I ask, who was the first to find the cache? The 2nd person or the 1st person? Why not blame the reviewer for posting it after dusk?

February 21, 2008

... Even though the online log was deleted, the cache was still technically found already, no?

I would say No, and compare the cacher who did not wait until the park opened with a runner with a false start. Even if the runner with the false start crossed the finish line, the race had not officially started so he could not be the winner. Didn't wait until the park opened, no FTF.

What if the second finder had a dog off its leash (another blatant contravention of park rules)? Would they forfeit the FTF if they acknowledged this in their log?

February 21, 2008

... Even though the online log was deleted, the cache was still technically found already, no?

I would say No, and compare the cacher who did not wait until the park opened with a runner with a false start. Even if the runner with the false start crossed the finish line, the race had not officially started so he could not be the winner. Didn't wait until the park opened, no FTF.

First to find is not a race. Its not an award, it's a simple statement of fact. "First to find". Not "Second to find", but FIRST. I ask, who was the first to find the cache? The 2nd person or the 1st person? Why not blame the reviewer for posting it after dusk?

I blame no one, the reviewer posted probably when he had the time in his day, the owner did what he thought was right as it appears he wanted people to experience the park, the cacher didn't read all information in the thrill of getting a FTF. But FTF, for many, is like a race; a game within the game. That is supported by the many FTF certificates and prizes. So in my mind all should be on equal footing. i.e. enter the park during hours. Others may view it otherwise, but if was my cache I would do the same.

February 21, 2008

Why not blame the reviewer for posting it after dusk?

Probably the same reason we don't ask the owner of the cache to remove it everyday at dusk.

Yeah, and why don't we blame banks for having all that money on hand after they get robbed?

5.7k · February 21, 2008

If I was to ever meet that owner, I'd give him a big wet kiss.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Team Cotati

5.7k · February 21, 2008

Who or what is Rod?

Edited February 21, 2008 by Team Cotati

4k · February 21, 2008

I hate it when people get so hell-bent on finding caches that they defy laws and common sense.

Although unlikely, an online log seen by park personnel where a cacher is claiming to find it during hours of closing may give them all the reason to ban all caches from their park systems. They don't want to attract , uh (can't say that ), people that break the law.

February 21, 2008

Yes, where is Rod? He was quite vocal about this on the MiGO forums...

The cache owner gets a big star from me on this one. Don't jeopardize it for the rest of us who cache during acceptable, legal hours!

February 21, 2008

What if the second finder had a dog off its leash (another blatant contravention of park rules)? Would they forfeit the FTF if they acknowledged this in their log?

Good analogy. I'm interested in the answer. I won't do it, but it tempts me to post a found log saying just that to see what the CO would do.

10.2k · February 21, 2008

From Google maps, it looks like the cache can be accessed without entering the park. The logs the original FTF posted claimed that they accessed it from outside the park, so I looked.

Cache on Google Maps Zoom in and look at Hybrid view.

Nice neighborhood. How come there's no grass? :rolleyes:

2k · February 21, 2008

Why not blame the reviewer for posting it after dusk?

Probably the same reason we don't ask the owner of the cache to remove it everyday at dusk.

Yeah, and why don't we blame banks for having all that money on hand after they get robbed?

Um, all that money on hand AFTER they get robbed? I could stand to get robbed like that.

If I got robbed today they'd only get pocket lint.

February 21, 2008

Are cache owners police officers now?

Yeah, some are.

look-up the handle "OfficerTB"

4.5k · February 21, 2008

What if the second finder had a dog off its leash (another blatant contravention of park rules)? Would they forfeit the FTF if they acknowledged this in their log?

Good analogy. I'm interested in the answer. I won't do it, but it tempts me to post a found log saying just that to see what the CO would do.

Allthough this is in the same set of rules, it's not quite the same in severity. In this case, the cops could be patrolling by or be called out when someone was tresspassing after hours, thereby causing a possible confrontation. This could lead to park personnel looking negatively on geocaching and possibly taking action to ban it from the park.

To be honest, i used to agree with the OP in that i figured it was up to the cacher if they wanted to take chances like that. But i have changed my thinking since, as stated earlier in this thread, it's not just the cacher(s) in question who might be affected if they get caught.

The cache of course was found so it did have a first finder and i can't imagine anyone else trying to claim ftf afterwards. But to me, it's kind of a cheap find since that cacher most likely did break a rule/city ordinance/law to get it. There's also a chance that they ruined it for other ftf enthusiasts in the area who noted the park hours on the cache page and decided to wait until morning to try for it when the park reopened. :rolleyes:

February 21, 2008

Are cache owners police officers now?

Yeah, some are.

look-up the handle "OfficerTB"

Or check out this coin.

1k · February 21, 2008

Plotting this out on Google Earth it appears the exact location of the cache is right on the western border of the park, right behind some trees, a blue roofed building and a baseball field. Is there a fence around this park? There is a house (or some dwelling) west of the cache location between the park and N. Camino de Oesto. They state the hours for the park on the webpage but they do not state the cache is actually in the park, nor do they state you have to access the cache from inside the park. If the cacher accessed the cache by skirting around the park border then they may of been placing themselves where they shouldn't be, but it doesn't change the fact they were the first to find it.

Are the park hours posted at the park? If the cacher entered the park outside of the operating hours the Pima County Government clearly states :

7.010 Violations and penalties

A person who violates any of the Parks Rules, adopted pursuant to A.R.S. § 11-931, et seq., is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor pursuant to A.R.S. § 11-940. (Res. 2000-3, § 2, 2000)

http://www.pima.gov/nrpr/geninfo/rules.htm#chapt7

I do agree that regardless of the opinions of anyone here or the cacher who found it, the owners has complete authority over their cache and it's logs. Well within their rights to delete it. If the cacher did violate the rules of the park then they put the cache (and geocaching in general) at risk, because if people violate the facility rules to access a cache the facilities will no longer give permission for caches, that is if this is a cache in a location that needed permission to be placed.

The owner has every right to protect their cache, their cache location and the future of caching. If the finder wants to dispute it they need to take it up with the cache owner, but the hide is the owner's domain to control as they see fit. Seems like they already did that.

1k · February 21, 2008

On a follow up note, logs only record when the log was entered, not when the cache was found (other then date). Did the FTF'er state the time of day that they found it in their log? I know the second did. Don't know if I've every had a log entered on one of my caches stating the time of day they found it. Guess they could of claimed they typed the wrong time in their log if they were questioned.... oh well, still the owner is well within their rights.

Edited February 21, 2008 by infiniteMPG

7.3k · February 21, 2008

I've always found these conversations interesting. I have spent many hours in our city parks, long after the posted hours. I've even seen police drive by us, etc, with no comment. We always see people biking/walking/rollerblading, etc. after "hours". I never realized that it was a big deal until reading about it in these forums. I'm super curious now, what my city's official policy is on this. I need to ask someone, just to satisfy my curiousity.

2.3k · February 21, 2008

This is such a non-event.

Reading the cache page, everyone seems to have been cordial. The owner was NOT rude in his/her note. The apparent FTF was cordial in accepting that she did, in fact, go through the park.

It looks like everyone involved in the online logs handled things like adults.

Why is this being brought up here???

** edited because I left out a very important NOT in my original post **

Edited February 21, 2008 by GeoBain

February 21, 2008

A found is a found!

I don't care if someone find my cache by accident or 'cause he jumps over a fence of a closed park (by hell, you'll get 5 years of jail for such a law break ;-D ).

So should I also delete FTFs 'cause the cacher is noticed by email-2-SMS instantly and not by looking up new caches manually or informed by the weekle non-premium newsletter?!

Again: A FOUND IS A FOUND !

Happy hunting,

Martin

February 21, 2008

7.010 Violations and penalties

A person who violates any of the Parks Rules, adopted pursuant to A.R.S. § 11-931, et seq., is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor pursuant to A.R.S. § 11-940. (Res. 2000-3, § 2, 2000)

http://www.pima.gov/nrpr/geninfo/rules.htm#chapt7

Uauauauauaaah! Danger! Danger!

In our region we have a lot of caches at old "open pit mine" areas. Sure there are signs like "Do not enter. Danger area". I tjhink is just an insurance thing - I you get injured you'll have to pay hospital maybe at your own.

I do agree that regardless of the opinions of anyone here or the cacher who found it, the owners has complete authority over their cache and it's logs. owner has every right to protect their cache, ...

So it's also ok to delete log of a cacher I don't like!?!?

I don't think so!

Martin

6.1k · February 21, 2008

The owner of GC19GW9 deleted a first to find log because the "first to finder" made the find during a local park's "closed" hours. I think this is bull. Am I wrong here? Are cache owners police officers now?

Breaking the law is a much worse activity than deleting a find. :rolleyes:

I think most cachers would be turned off to the FTF race if illegal activity and avoiding the police became a part of it.

February 21, 2008

Breaking the law is a much worse activity than deleting a find.

...

I agree ...

when we're talking 'bout entering private ground or to something other real bad things against the law.

But entering a public park which is only closed 'cause it's maybe to danger in the night would be ok (for me).

In the end, it's not a must to do a cache at danger areas or during closed times.

Just choose an other cache :-)

Happy hunting,

Martin

February 21, 2008

the cache really isn't "legally in the park", the park boundries stop at the metal cable... and can be accessed by walking around the park 'fence'

Migthy quick draw of this sheriff I think. And there are a few 'deputies' here as well - equally qiuck. :rolleyes:

February 21, 2008

Who or what is Rod?

Rod is "Rockin Roddy", the originator of a very "to the point" thread from last year, "To trespass or not to....that is the question!, what's YOUR opinion??" that went 8 pages before it digressed to the point a moderator shut it down.

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

8.9k · February 21, 2008

Rod - Where are you and how come you're not all over this one?

Well, I have to say the cache owner did give everyone a great heads up about the park hours. Too bad the FTFer didn't read the cache page better. Otherwise they might have done things differently.

No matter what the cache owner says, the true FTF is the first one to sign the cache log book.

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

Right here Deane...went to bed early last night!! lol

OK, I'm sure most know my stance (and for those who don't, please read my sig lines for clues)...park hours are there for a reason!! Someone breaking the hours can jeopardize the cache, get the cache owner into trouble with people they MAY have made a promise (no, people won't be entering after hours) to, could get caches banned in that park and others depending on the negative publicity it may cause, cause landowners to get a "bad taste in their mouths" about caching and make it tough for owners to obtain permission to place a cache in the future etc. GREAT JOB MR Cache owner...you did right!

Someone said the hours don't matter? Come on out to one of my caches and try after hours caching...I'll delete ANY logs stating this (and have). My reputation is on the line! I also feel that cache owners who allow this action should lose not only their cache in question, but the privilege to hide caches for a period of time. The cacher who made the illegal find?? Banned for a period of time! Stop this and other potentially harmful (to the game of caching) actions and we'll have less angst and less problems with land owners!!

Yes, the FTF was made, the FTF prize (if any were there or taken) wasn't asked to be returned....BUT, your find was deleted and your history erased...didn't like it?? Try playing by the rules!! As has been pointed out, this incident was handled well by both parties involved, so this really isn't a problem...but glad it was brought up so others who don't realize the problems they may cause can possibly learn something!!

Looking forward to meeting up with you at WS Deane...and really hope you can make this year's Lazy Hayes Days...we'll go after a few "after hours" finds...with permission!! lol

Edited February 21, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

February 21, 2008

I think most cachers would be turned off to the FTF race if illegal activity and avoiding the police became a part of it.

Yes, I would agree. Most would.

And for others it adds to the challenge.

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

38.2k · February 21, 2008

I've always found these conversations interesting. I have spent many hours in our city parks, long after the posted hours. I've even seen police drive by us, etc, with no comment. We always see people biking/walking/rollerblading, etc. after "hours". I never realized that it was a big deal until reading about it in these forums.

I see the same thing in many parks. Often these laws aren't meant for well behaved citizens. Police will usually ignore their presence. What they do is give the police the power to kick out loiterers and other undesirables.

Still, we saw in SC how the relatively benign actions of geocachers can be portrayed in a sinister light by someone who is out to get us. Why give these people any ammunition? Why can't people just wait until the

park is open? Is a FTF so important that you are willing to risk the reputation of the sport?

February 21, 2008

Good for the cache owner!

Don't hunt for caches in parks after hours. You put geocaching in those parks and any other parks those land managers may have contact with at risk. Land managers DO talk to each other.

And some of them are savvy enough to read geocaching logs on the caches in their parks.

All cachers should be aware that the logs they write (especially if not on a PM cache) are there for everyone, including the land managers, to see. Don't make comments about breaking rules in your logs, even if you did. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

An FTF is not worth the risk to geocaching's reputation.

2.3k · February 21, 2008

The owner of GC19GW9 deleted a first to find log because the "first to finder" made the find during a local park's "closed" hours. I think this is bull. Am I wrong here? Are cache owners police officers now?

Yes, Cog, you are wrong. Very wrong. Geocachers should never break the law in pursuit of caches, it endangers the survival of the sport for all of us. :rolleyes:

Cheaters should never be allowed to win.

We congratulate the cache owner in doing the right thing by deleting the smilie. Unfortunately, now they are liable to become the hate target of the loonies. We know, we've been there.

Calling the cache owners cache police is mean-spirited and insulting; The OP owes them an apology.

February 21, 2008

There will NEVER be another FTF on that cache...even if they deleted the log.

FTF deleted--Not found during park hours!

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