getting permission

[vermontcathy]

In my town in Vermont, the town is working towards creating a network of trails, on both public and private land. We are very grateful to the private landowners who allow the public to use their trails. The town has some maps on their website for these trails. We've had some cachers place 6 caches along a 1.75 mile trail on private property in the last few weeks, without asking permission. When I asked the cache owners if they had gotten permission, I got a variety of responses, and I'd like to hear people's opinions on it. Responses included:

 

1. Since there was already another cache in the area, I assumed that cache owner had done the research

 

2. Since there was a map on the town website, I assumed it was public land, so I didn't get permission

 

I argue that even if it WAS public, you need to get permission from the managing agency. How do you know the town doesn't have a policy regarding caches? (see the "Will it be on private or public land?" section on http://www.geocaching.com/about/hiding.aspx). Also, there are several notes on the town website saying how the land owners generously let the public use the land, so they should have known, even with a minimum amount of research that it is private land (which is open to the public).

 

I also question the review process for caches. From looking over the submission form, the form itself does not ask the cache owner whether they got permission or not, or whether it is on public or private property. The guidelines, which the cache placer needs to check off that they read, states that "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location." The guidelines also state "If you are given permission to place a cache on private property, indicate this on the cache page for the benefit of both the reviewer and people seeking out the cache." But if the cache owner doesn't do this, and since the submission form does not ask them if it is private or public, the reviewer apparently has no way of knowing that it is private.

 

I just think there should be a spot on the submission form that says "Is this public or private land?" "How do you know?" and "Did you get permission (if private, then from the landowners, if public, then from the managing agency)?" This would resolve the problem of people claiming that a. they didn't know it was private, and b. them claiming that they didn't know that even public land requires permission.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Cathy

Edited June 2, 2008 by vermontcathy

[+briansnat]

Your thoughts?

 

The reviewer has to trust that the cache owner did his homework and obtained permission where it is needed.

 

I don't think more fields on the form will make a difference because someone can easily lie about having permission. Heck, many cache owners already lie when they check the box that says they read the guidelines, but didn't.

Edited June 2, 2008 by briansnat

[vermontcathy]

I don't think more fields on the form will make a difference because someone can easily lie about having permission. Heck, many cache owners already lie when they check the box that says they read the guidelines, but didn't.

 

In this situation, though, it's not a case of lying, it's a case of people being clueless - not knowing that they need permission regardless of whether it's private or public. This would point it out to them.

 

Cathy

[+briansnat]

I don't think more fields on the form will make a difference because someone can easily lie about having permission. Heck, many cache owners already lie when they check the box that says they read the guidelines, but didn't.

 

In this situation, though, it's not a case of lying, it's a case of people being clueless - not knowing that they need permission regardless of whether it's private or public. This would point it out to them.

 

Cathy

 

The don't need permission regardless. Believe it or not there are many park systems that don't have a problem with geocaching and don't want to be bothered with administering caches.

 

The guidelines require "adequate" permission, meaning obtaining permission on private property and on public lands where it's required.

[vermontcathy]

The don't need permission regardless. Believe it or not there are many park systems that don't have a problem with geocaching and don't want to be bothered with administering caches.

 

The guidelines require "adequate" permission, meaning obtaining permission on private property and on public lands where it's required.

 

but how would the cache placer know whether the public lands require permission if they don't ask? For instance, suppose this land was owned by the town, and not private. The town could have a policy saying no caches, or caches, but you have to let us know about it (in one town park a cache had to be moved because a windmill was being installed, so in that situation it helped that the town knew about it).

 

Cathy

[vermontcathy]

The don't need permission regardless. Believe it or not there are many park systems that don't have a problem with geocaching and don't want to be bothered with administering caches.

 

The guidelines require "adequate" permission, meaning obtaining permission on private property and on public lands where it's required.

 

Also, see "Will it be on private or public land?" section on http://www.geocaching.com/about/hiding.aspx. It says "If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules." So that would run counter to what you said.

 

Cathy

[Neos2]

My thoughts:

 

There are so many different types of communities and levels of government in the world (and this is a world-wide game) that it can be challenging to determine what constitutes public vs private, when explicit vs implied permission is required, and/or who to contact at times.

 

My point being only that a "one-size-fits-all click the button" option may not be possible. There are places where 'private' land is not restricted for use by the public and places where 'public' land is not available for use by anyone.

 

In my experience, the once the typical reviewer for an area becomes aware of areas that require special permission, they will make inquiries about permission when caches are submitted for that area. If your area has some of those special awareness needs, the best thing to do is to contact the reviewer for the area, and let them know your concerns. I have found the reviewers at gc and the powers that be are happy to work with landowners, land managers, various agenices, and cachers to try to keep things running smoothly.

 

Couple of questions for you: Do the maps for the trails show which areas are private land and which are public? Does the website say who should be contacted if you have questions about the trails? Could you share a link?

[+briansnat]

The don't need permission regardless. Believe it or not there are many park systems that don't have a problem with geocaching and don't want to be bothered with administering caches.

 

The guidelines require "adequate" permission, meaning obtaining permission on private property and on public lands where it's required.

 

Also, see "Will it be on private or public land?" section on http://www.geocaching.com/about/hiding.aspx. It says "If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules." So that would run counter to what you said.

 

Cathy

 

It says find out about their rules. If there are rules they should be followed. Some don't want to be bothered with making rules. If you know there are no rules do you need to contact them anyway to find out what you already know?

 

I was contacted last year by the director of a large county parks system. The exchange went like this:

 

Him: I want to bring geocaching into my park system and was given your name as a contact.

 

Me: Geocaching is already in your park system. In fact it's considered to be one of the premier geocaching park systems in the state

 

Him: Great, I didn't know that. Is there anything we need to do?

 

Me: Not unless you want to develop geocaching policy.

 

Him: No way, that's the last thing we need to worry about.

[+flask]

i live only a few miles from the OP and in my experience, many local towns and park management organizations don't want to be bothered with administration of caches, but welcome them because in a multi-use area geocaching is just one more use the park can point to when it comes time to justify itself by its value to the community.

 

for example, at lake iroquois the first couple of caches went in with full permission, but they don't appear to care anymore. the south burlington parks department was pretty fussy about the first cache that went in, but as long as the caches stay out of sensitive areas they don't care anymore. the winooski valley parks district last time i heard didn't have an official position on geocaches, but were aware of the presence of caches and preferred not to have a position.

 

 

areas that do not wish to host geocaches have been pretty clear in saying so.

 

sometimes a park system prefers not to have an officaial position on geocaches because they're not certain how it will play out and they want the opportunity to say "geocaches? we never heard of that." in case something happens and they decide to have them taken out.

 

for the most part land managers are aware of geocaching and they know exactly which caches are on their land. sometimes a land manager asks for a cache to be removed, but usually not.

 

since i don't know the particular trail system the OP is concerned about, i can't answer specifically about those particular caches.

 

anecdotally, however, i'll tell you that i had a cache on private land and didn't think about the cache when the land changed owners. the new owner sent me an email asking about what she could expect in terms of traffic, and it turns out she's delighted to host a geocache in her very own front yard.

 

so. you never know.

[vermontcathy]

Couple of questions for you: Do the maps for the trails show which areas are private land and which are public? Does the website say who should be contacted if you have questions about the trails? Could you share a link?

 

Here's a link (http://hinesburg.org/hart.html), and the land in question is the Russell Family Trails. Now, I ask you: does something about the name of the trail possibly indicate that it might be privately owned land??? Such as "Russell Family Trails"?? Also, you'll see that right below the trail name, it says "Two miles of trails on a 63-acre working farm." If you click on "Info/directions", it says at the bottom of the page "The Russell family has generously conserved these trails for public use - please respect the farming operation, as farm animals may be grazing in the fields." Now, the map itself says nothing. I'm thinking the cache placers may have gotten a link to the map somewhere and never read the website. I'll be working with the trails committee to make sure the map PDF has more info on it. But I believe that cache placers should spend at least a couple minutes researching their hide. And just a tiny bit of research would have made it obvious that this is generously shared, private land, and they should have gotten permission.

 

Cathy

[+briansnat]

Couple of questions for you: Do the maps for the trails show which areas are private land and which are public? Does the website say who should be contacted if you have questions about the trails? Could you share a link?

 

Here's a link (http://hinesburg.org/hart.html), and the land in question is the Russell Family Trails. Now, I ask you: does something about the name of the trail possibly indicate that it might be privately owned land??? Such as "Russell Family Trails"?? Also, you'll see that right below the trail name, it says "Two miles of trails on a 63-acre working farm." If you click on "Info/directions", it says at the bottom of the page "The Russell family has generously conserved these trails for public use - please respect the farming operation, as farm animals may be grazing in the fields." Now, the map itself says nothing. I'm thinking the cache placers may have gotten a link to the map somewhere and never read the website. I'll be working with the trails committee to make sure the map PDF has more info on it. But I believe that cache placers should spend at least a couple minutes researching their hide. And just a tiny bit of research would have made it obvious that this is generously shared, private land, and they should have gotten permission.

 

Cathy

 

In this instance I agree that permission should have been sought. You should discuss this with the cache owners and if they aren't cooperative, contact the reviewer who published the caches.

[vermontcathy]

i live only a few miles from the OP and in my experience, many local towns and park management organizations don't want to be bothered with administration of caches

 

But how would a cache placer KNOW whether the town cared, if they don't ASK? If I was going to place a cache in a town park, I'd call the town and ask if there's any policy or if they care, and if they say no problem, we don't care, then I'm all set. You said yourself that some managing agencies care and some don't - the only way to know if you're in one of the (perhaps rare) towns/agencies that care, is to ask.

 

As far as I know, the town has no policy, because it hasn't come up much. But some recently preserved land has some endangered bats, and I bet if the land managers were asked about it, they'd say yes, but not in this particular area. I say, you gotta ask, it only takes a few minutes.

 

Cathy

[vermontcathy]

In this instance I agree that permission should have been sought. You should discuss this with the cache owners and if they aren't cooperative, contact the reviewer who published the caches.

 

Obviously they should have gotten permission - it's private land. My question is how to respond to the excuse that they didn't know it was private, so they didn't bother getting permission. I say that since you have no way of knowing if a town or managing agency has a policy regarding caching unless you ask, you have to ask. PLUS, geocaching.com's own policy says you need to get permission even on public land, so I don't know why people are questioning that - (see the "Will it be on private or public land?" section on http://www.geocaching.com/about/hiding.aspx)

 

Oh, and I've been in contact with the cache owners and the land owners and they are working on the situation. How would I contact the reviewer?

 

Cathy

Edited June 2, 2008 by vermontcathy

[+briansnat]

for the most part land managers are aware of geocaching and they know exactly which caches are on their land. sometimes a land manager asks for a cache to be removed, but usually not.

 

There are few land managing agencies today that aren't aware of geocaching. If they don't take action against caches on their lands and don't want to formulate a policy, that is tacit permission.

[+starscream2]

Although I can't comment directly on your particular area... I had similar questions in regards to hiding a cache in my area. The profile for the reviewer in my state has a list of all known areas, cities, counties, state parks, that require permits, are banned, etc. It states that if anyone sees any cities, counties that have geocaching policies that are not listed to let him know right away.

 

So that is how someone could know if an area requires any special permit or not without asking the city offices themselves.

 

Secondly I was asking about how do I get in touch with park managers for nearby cities. The answer I was given was let the state geocaching association do that. In many cases neither the parks nor the state geocachers association wants each individual cacher to ask separately. Many parks don't want to do any paperwork, and as long as the caches follow general park usage rules don't care they are out there, and don't need to be bothered everytime someone hides them. Likewise the state geocachers association has a lot of experience negotiating with park systems, and setting up policies with them and would prefer to be the ones who work with parks rather than having just other random people trying to do so.

 

So basically I was told make sure you read the list of which cities/park systems/counties in the state have policies in place, follow the policies if they apply. For those cities/park systems not listed go ahead and hide following general park usage rules.

 

As far as determing what is public vs private that is more difficult I think. There are places that are clearly marked as public or private. But certainly some areas that are hard to tell. I think if you are not hiding in an area that is clearly marked, you should contanct the city or county and make sure. That is on you as the hider to do your homework.

[Neos2]

I'll be working with the trails committee to make sure the map PDF has more info on it. But I believe that cache placers should spend at least a couple minutes researching their hide.

 

Is it part of your job or volunteer position, or are you just taking a personal interest in this?

 

Has there been a specific problem at the area you mention? I agree the path sounds like somewhere I would have asked permission.

 

You should know, though, that many people don't want to be asked for specific permission --they know they are adequately covered under recreational land use laws, and fear they will be held responsible if they are asked for specifric permission and then there is a mishap. They are fine with the recreational use taking place, they just don't want to give specific permission. I'm no lawyer, so I don't know if their anxiety is warrented or not, I'm just letting you know that is what some people say when they are asked for specific permission ("You can do it if you want--really, it's fine by me-- but I'm not signing anything").

 

To contact a reviewer, look at the bottom of a cache page to see who published the cache. That person is the reviewer. Click on their name and you'll be directed to a method to email them.

[vermontcathy]

There are few land managing agencies today that aren't aware of geocaching. If they don't take action against caches on their lands and don't want to formulate a policy, that is tacit permission.

 

So you're saying that just because a small town doesn't have a policy, that means that you don't have to ask? That's nuts. I'm sure some people in my town's government and trails committees have a vague idea about caching but never really thought about a policy. But I'll say to them, do you care if someone puts a cache in the endangered bats' cave? Do you care if they put a cache half way up the wind turbine on town land? Then if so, we need a policy. But just because there isn't a policy doesn't mean you don't have to ask. How do you know the town DOESN'T have a policy? Maybe they do - but you don't know because YOU DIDN'T ASK. That's my point!

 

This particularly situation may cause the town to make a policy, but just because they didn't have one posted on their website, doesn't mean it's a blank check to do whatever you want.

 

Cathy

[+briansnat]

How do you know the town DOESN'T have a policy? Maybe they do - but you don't know because YOU DIDN'T ASK. That's my point!

 

I never said not to ask. My point is that there are many places that know about geocaching, have no problem with it but don't want to be put in the position of giving it their official sanction. So of course you should ask about the policy if you don't know if there is one, but if you know for a fact that there isn't one, I don't see the point of asking.

Edited June 2, 2008 by briansnat

[+starscream2]

Obviously they should have gotten permission - it's private land. My question is how to respond to the excuse that they didn't know it was private, so they didn't bother getting permission. I say that since you have no way of knowing if a town or managing agency has a policy regarding caching unless you ask, you have to ask. PLUS, geocaching.com's own policy says you need to get permission even on public land, so I don't know why people are questioning that - (see the "Will it be on private or public land?" section on http://www.geocaching.com/about/hiding.aspx)

 

Oh, and I've been in contact with the cache owners and the land owners and they are working on the situation. How would I contact the reviewer?

 

Cathy

 

The reviewer is the the person who published the cache. You should be able to see his name as one of the first entries in the cache log, when it was published. He/she should definately be made aware of the situation so that person can know to not list any other new caches in that area without verifying that permission for the land owners was obtained. The reviewer rely on feedback from people like yourself to correct situations like this. You are doing the right thing to get this straightened out.

 

This is a case where people put caches on private land (maybe thinking it was public land, but they should have done their homework better, and not made this mistake).

 

However, in general, I think your view that you need to contact a land manager for each and every hide to see if they have a policy is not quite on the mark. I can't speak for your state, but in my state, the state geocaching association has a website that has a maintained and often updated list of all policies that exist in the state, AND the state reviewer has all that information on his profile as well. So it is possible to determine if a park system in a given area has any policy or not without having to talk to the manager.

[+tozainamboku]

You may see in these forums something referred to as the Frisbee Rule. If you would play Frisbee there without getting permission why should you you need permission to place a cache? Of course there are some differences between playing Frisbee and hiding a geocache. If a property owner or cache manager found you playing Frisbee where you shouldn't be, they could tell you to stop. With a geocache they would have to contact the cache owner or Geocaching.com and have them archive the cache listing. Even then there would be a lag of several days or more where people might still come to search for the cache. And others who saw the cache in the area may think of hiding their own cache.

 

My guess is that a new public trail system (even one that crosses private land) may be seen as having the implicit Frisbee permission especially if caches are implicitly or explicitly allowed on other trails managed by the same agency. Cachers should ask permission, but many don't if they feel that none is needed. Sometimes land managment agencies have no problem with geoaching in their lands but they don't want to have the hassle of setting a policy or keeping records of who got permission. Sometimes the Frisbee rule works for the land manager or property owner even better than it does for Geocachers.

 

Land managers and property owners who do set a policy should know that the volunteers Groundspeak reviewers would be happy to help enforce the policy. When the reviewers know of a policy they will ask the cache hider to provide the kind of information you are asking for in a reviewer note.

 

One thing that Groundspeak could do it put a link right on the Geocaching.com home page with information for land managers and property owners. In addition to providing the contact email addresss, it could provide instructions on how to find out if geocaches have been placed on your property, what to do if you want to have a geocache removed, and resources for developing geocaching rules and guidelines. (Currently there is a paragraph on the Contact Us page telling Land Managers how to contact Geocaching.com to have an inappropriately placed cache archived.)

Edited June 2, 2008 by tozainamboku

[+briansnat]

If a property owner or cache manager found you playing Frisbee where you shouldn't be, they could tell you to stop. With a geocache they would have to contact the cache owner or Geocaching.com and have them archive the cache listing.

 

Actually, he could remove it.

[vermontcathy]

 

Is it part of your job or volunteer position, or are you just taking a personal interest in this?

 

Has there been a specific problem at the area you mention? I agree the path sounds like somewhere I would have asked permission.

 

 

I have a personal interest in this because I live 100 feet from the trail and I know the owners and feel the owners should be acknowledged and appreciated - starting with asking permission if you put a cache on their land. Also, as I said, the town has a lot of trails that are on private land and if the owners get pissed off, they could revoke permission for the public to use their land at any time, and that would suck. The specific problem is that I knew from reading the cache descriptions that they hadn't asked permission, because over a year ago I had asked the owners if I could place a cache (I never got around to it) and they said "Yes, BUT.." They wanted people to stay on the trails, they didn't want people bushwacking, and so they wanted the cache close to the trail. They wanted people told to leave gates (open or closed) as you found them, for the animals in pasture. So my problem was that the owners did not know about the caches, and I knew they would want to know, and I knew they hadn't been asked (since the restrictions they told me hadn't been put on the cache pages).

Edited June 2, 2008 by vermontcathy

[Neos2]

There are few land managing agencies today that aren't aware of geocaching. If they don't take action against caches on their lands and don't want to formulate a policy, that is tacit permission.

 

So you're saying that just because a small town doesn't have a policy, that means that you don't have to ask? That's nuts. I'm sure some people in my town's government and trails committees have a vague idea about caching but never really thought about a policy. But I'll say to them, do you care if someone puts a cache in the endangered bats' cave? Do you care if they put a cache half way up the wind turbine on town land? Then if so, we need a policy. But just because there isn't a policy doesn't mean you don't have to ask. How do you know the town DOESN'T have a policy? Maybe they do - but you don't know because YOU DIDN'T ASK. That's my point!

 

This particularly situation may cause the town to make a policy, but just because they didn't have one posted on their website, doesn't mean it's a blank check to do whatever you want.

 

Cathy

I hope you aren't getting upset. I can't really tell if you are heated or just extremely concerned (the Internet is terrible for that). But lets agree to have have cool heads about this.

 

No one is saying you should not ask for permission where it's appropriate. But specific permission is not always needed.

 

There are already agree-upon recreational land use policies and lawas in effect for most places in the US that cover many uses of private/public land such as fishing, hunting, hiking, etc. These laws protect the land owner from being sued if there is an accident while the "public" is on their "private" land. They are good things.

 

My impression of VT is they have been very actively trying to keep the land from being parceled up into tiny pieces too small to be useful to anyone. They have good forest management programs and great trail policies, right? These are also good things.

 

As far as geocaching goes, most people, agencies, governments, etc are content to allow geocaching to fall under the general rules of recreational use by the public. In general those include doing expecting the public to do things like being careful not damage the property and to ask permission before doing something like building a tree stand on someone's property for hunting.

 

I don't know of any geocacher out there who wants to damage any property, cause any hard feelings, or create any problems for anyone. Most geocachers will be very responsible about placing caches that will not harm the environment or the neaby property. Few cachers place cave caches because of the risk to both the cave and it's flora and fauna or to the cachers who migth come to the cache. Caves are just iffy things. However, if a cache was placed in a cave and the cache owner was made aware of an endangered species living in the cave, they woud archive the cache. It doesn't take a policy or a rule or anything else to accomplish that --it just takes a quick email to the cache owner to say "Hey, did you know...?" (ANd if that would happen to fail for some reason, a note to the reviewer would solve the problem).

 

That is why many towns/parks/agencies etc don't have "policies" on geocaching--they really aren't needed. For the most part, the geocaching community tends to monitor and police itself very well. When problem crop up, they are dealt with -- in extreme cases, I've seen caches shut down first and the questions asked later.

 

In my area, the local caching association ha already been in contact with many of the governing agencies and they can tell cachers who to contact, whether a place has any particular rules, etc. I'd recommend you think about going to a local event and talking your concerns over with the local cachers. You might find a lot of proactive efforts have already been undertaken and many of your concerns are already being addressed. If not, you'll be where all the locals are and you can start that dialog.

Edited June 2, 2008 by Neos2

[vermontcathy]

Several people have mentioned that the reviewer for their area often maintains a list of areas with special rules. The reviewer for my area covers 7 states! - DE, GA, ME, MA, NH, RI & VT

 

I really don't see how he could maintain a list including one family's land in one town in Vermont.

 

Also I don't see anything on the state caching site about rules, what areas have policies, etc.

 

If y'all disagree with geocaching.com's statement that people need to contact the land managers to get permission, maybe the guidelines should be changed...

Edited June 2, 2008 by vermontcathy

[+starscream2]

So you're saying that just because a small town doesn't have a policy, that means that you don't have to ask? That's nuts. I'm sure some people in my town's government and trails committees have a vague idea about caching but never really thought about a policy. But I'll say to them, do you care if someone puts a cache in the endangered bats' cave? Do you care if they put a cache half way up the wind turbine on town land? Then if so, we need a policy. But just because there isn't a policy doesn't mean you don't have to ask. How do you know the town DOESN'T have a policy? Maybe they do - but you don't know because YOU DIDN'T ASK. That's my point!

 

This particularly situation may cause the town to make a policy, but just because they didn't have one posted on their website, doesn't mean it's a blank check to do whatever you want.

 

Cathy

 

You don't have a blank check, you ALWAYS have to follow state and local laws. If there is endangered animals likely their are state and national laws protecting them and their habitat. So placing a cache in an area that disrupts endanger animals is likely illegal regarding of any geocaching polocies. Likewise, a town probably has ordinances against climbing any wind turbines they own. I would be suprised if they did not have them marked with no trespassing signs. Geocachers, both for hiding and searching have to follow laws like everyone else does. If a person can not picnic, climb, play, hike, etc in a given public owned area then it is off-limits for geocaching as well.

 

If this does get to the point where the town wants to adopt a policy I encouarge you to see if your state has an association with experience in setting up such polocies and get them involved. As stated in my state the geocaching association prefers that individuals not contact the cities themselves but works through the association to do so, as they have the experience and knowledge with setting up city policies in several park systems already.

[+briansnat]

My guess is that a new public trail system (even one that crosses private land) may be seen as having the implicit Frisbee permission especially if caches are implicitly or explicitly allowed on other trails managed by the same agency

 

Easements for trails on private land negotiated with landowners often contain specific references to activities allowed on the trails. A geocache placed on one of these trails (or ATV use, mountain bike use, going off trail, or anything else that might not be allowed as per the easement) can jeopardize that easement and end access for all.

 

So in that vein I totally agree with VTcathy that these caches are inappropriate and she has a right to be concerned.

Edited June 2, 2008 by briansnat

[+starscream2]

Several people have mentioned that the reviewer for their area often maintains a list of areas with special rules. The reviewer for my area covers 7 states! - DE, GA, ME, MA, NH, RI & VT

 

I really don't see how he could maintain a list including one family's land in one town in Vermont.

 

If y'all disagree with geocaching.com's statement that people need to contact the land managers to get permission, maybe the guidelines should be changed...

 

The key here is that they are on "one family's land". That being the case you ALWAYS need to get permission to place caches on private land. Based on how you are describing the situation I am in completely agreement that these are illegally placed and should be removed until proper permission is granted. Again you are absolutely doing the right thing by notifying the reviewer and the owners of the caches that these are wrong. Like you said those private land owners could revoke public use based on something like this. Your actions are doing the right thing to prevent that from happening.

 

The part that I think people are in disagreement about. Is that is this was on "public" land and followed all local and state laws/ordinances for park usage, a person would not always have to get explict permission. Given that some cities and parks do not want to be bothered every time someone hides a cache, and do not have any policy requiring that, it might be legit to hide something there without asking. If your area doesn't have any association or state level document that clearly shows which areas have policies you might need to ask the city just to find out. But if they do have an updated and maintained list of public owned areas that can be followed, that is normally acceptable.

 

Really a person does have to do their homework when hiding a cache, it sounds like in this case they did not. You do have to know if an area has a policy or not regarding geocaching, and whether you are on public or private owned land and have to follow all laws that apply to that spot.

[+flask]

There are few land managing agencies today that aren't aware of geocaching. If they don't take action against caches on their lands and don't want to formulate a policy, that is tacit permission.

 

So you're saying that just because a small town doesn't have a policy, that means that you don't have to ask? That's nuts. I'm sure some people in my town's government and trails committees have a vague idea about caching but never really thought about a policy. But I'll say to them, do you care if someone puts a cache in the endangered bats' cave? Do you care if they put a cache half way up the wind turbine on town land? Then if so, we need a policy. But just because there isn't a policy doesn't mean you don't have to ask. How do you know the town DOESN'T have a policy? Maybe they do - but you don't know because YOU DIDN'T ASK. That's my point!

 

This particularly situation may cause the town to make a policy, but just because they didn't have one posted on their website, doesn't mean it's a blank check to do whatever you want.

 

Cathy

 

actually, there are more than a few towns that don't want to have the conversation about caches. it has to do with liability. where they think they want to allow caching but are unsure of their liability, they prefer not to have been contacted at all.

 

in some cases there's no objection to geocaching, but if forced into making official policy, they feel they'd have to disallow it and so there's a kind of "don't ask-don't tell" balance. in these cases, absence of policy is purposeful and represents a tacit permission.

 

of course, you never get this information through channels, but it's there unofficially. we hear it sometimes through cachers who happen to work for the town, or who happen to be the park ranger or the forester.

 

don't get me wrong; i'm not in favor of stupid or unwanted cache placement. it's just that the issue of adequate permission is sometimes more complex than it seems.

 

there is never a "blank check to do whatever you want", but absence of express permission is not always absence of adequate permission.

 

i am not, of course, speaking of the "russell family trails", but i am speaking about small towns in northern vermont. in general (but not universally, so one has to pay attention) if a park or trail system is open to the public for multiple uses, geocaching is usually included. public areas with established and maintained mountain bike trails are especially good bets.

 

parks that charge admission are almost always aware that they host geocaches, and they're aware that geocaches boost their visitor numbers. some of them STILL decline to make any kind of policy.

 

if you hang around long enough, you can kind of get a feel for it.

 

keep in mind that i'm not a renegade in this regard. i have caches at schools, cemeteries, private residences, and on lands belonging to GMP, all with express permissions. if i place a cache in a park belonging to an agency that hasn't hosted caches before, i make some subtle inquiries about attitude, if not policy.

 

you just can't make blanket statements about it.

[Neos2]

Several people have mentioned that the reviewer for their area often maintains a list of areas with special rules. The reviewer for my area covers 7 states! - DE, GA, ME, MA, NH, RI & VT

 

I really don't see how he could maintain a list including one family's land in one town in Vermont.

 

Also I don't see anything on the state caching site about rules, what areas have policies, etc.

 

If y'all disagree with geocaching.com's statement that people need to contact the land managers to get permission, maybe the guidelines should be changed...

I've already said that I would have asked permission from the land owner.

 

However, I wouldn't sell the reviewer short--I've seen some that appear to have amazing resources at their fingertips. As to whether they know if this particular piece of land is private or public, well, you can only find that out if you ask.

 

I really do recommend you contact the reviewer with your concerns. And I think it would be a great idea to go to a local event and talk this over with other cachers who live in your area. The cachers who organize and attend events tend to be more responsible and environmentally aware in the community--which only makes sense: they are the ones who want to promote and protect geocaching in your community. I suspect you would be pleased with what you learn. (And it's been my experience that these geocaching folks are just great people to know, too).

[+flask]

oooh, ooh!

 

and by the way, we have one famous locale here in VT where the official position on the geocaches in the park is that they are allowed, but one of the rangers doesn't like them and actively harasses geocachers.

 

you never know.

[vermontcathy]

OK, I'm beginning to soften a little (but only a little) on my opinion that people need to get permission when placing a cache on public land. My opinion is significantly influenced by geocaching.com's own statement that people do need to contact the managing agency. If that rule is not true (if people don't have to contact the managing agency) then the statement should be removed from geocaching.com. For instance, our town could say, "Well, the Geocaching website tells cache placers to contact us, so we will just deal with requests as they come in, on a case-by-case basis." But then there could be a cached placed, and no one contacted the town and the town wonders why not, since it says on Geocaching.com that they must. That's my position on it.

 

My problem is that I've got FOUR cachers who all assumed that it was public land (despite LOTS of evidence to the contrary), and they also assume they don't need to get permission for public land. So how do we prevent this from happening in the future, either on the same land in question, or on other private-but-open-to-the-public land that exists in my town?

[vermontcathy]

And I think it would be a great idea to go to a local event and talk this over with other cachers who live in your area.

 

Ha, ha. That's funny. Reading every week's Groundspeak email, I've never seen an event anywhere in my state.

[+flask]

Several people have mentioned that the reviewer for their area often maintains a list of areas with special rules. The reviewer for my area covers 7 states! - DE, GA, ME, MA, NH, RI & VT

 

I really don't see how he could maintain a list including one family's land in one town in Vermont.

 

Also I don't see anything on the state caching site about rules, what areas have policies, etc.

 

If y'all disagree with geocaching.com's statement that people need to contact the land managers to get permission, maybe the guidelines should be changed...

 

the reviewer for VT and those other six inconsequential states actually has a good grasp of land use policies. and he has a list of people out on the ground who are his eyes and ears. if he has a question, he will ask. the key is not in knowing what all the policies are, but in knowing whom to ask. and he DOES ask. he also welcomes information about improper placements and will ask local cachers to check things out for him sometimes.

 

and the guideline doesn't say explicit permission is required; it says that adequate permission is required. in some cases here where you live that means a permit, and in some places where you live that means no permission is required.

 

if you place a cache in one of those places that requires a permit, you'd better bet the guy in charge of that will check for your permit before your cache is a week old.

 

you could make it your crusade, or you could find out what the generally accepted practices are.

[+StarBrand]

I have worked with a number of towns and park departments in the area over the past several year's. The response varies from complete apathy towards geocaching to a keen excitment over the idea. Most didn't want to have to hear from each and every cacher wanting to place a cache and none were interested in creating any offcial stance. I pass on what I know to local cachers. Also, the state has some official policy for certain Wildlife Management areas but the rest are open to Geocaching. All says so on the state website. But I called a local official once about a geocache and he had never heard of the idea and told me that it would be considered littering. After printing out the website and a call to the state office we cleared up the issue. But it does go to demonstrate that asking the land manager isn't always the best idea. Asking other knowledgeable cachers would have been better.

[+flask]

And I think it would be a great idea to go to a local event and talk this over with other cachers who live in your area.

 

Ha, ha. That's funny. Reading every week's Groundspeak email, I've never seen an event anywhere in my state.

 

well, there was a event two weeks ago, and there's another one this month.

 

i AM a geocacher who lives in your area, and it's not hard to make contact with the rest of us.

 

 

as for your particular parcel of off-limits land, send a note to the reviewer and he won't approve anything in there.

[+briansnat]

OK, I'm beginning to soften a little (but only a little) on my opinion that people need to get permission when placing a cache on public land. My opinion is significantly influenced by geocaching.com's own statement that people do need to contact the managing agency. If that rule is not true (if people don't have to contact the managing agency) then the statement should be removed from geocaching.com. For instance, our town could say, "Well, the Geocaching website tells cache placers to contact us, so we will just deal with requests as they come in, on a case-by-case basis." But then there could be a cached placed, and no one contacted the town and the town wonders why not, since it says on Geocaching.com that they must. That's my position on it.

 

My problem is that I've got FOUR cachers who all assumed that it was public land (despite LOTS of evidence to the contrary), and they also assume they don't need to get permission for public land. So how do we prevent this from happening in the future, either on the same land in question, or on other private-but-open-to-the-public land that exists in my town?

 

Its hard to prevent. The reviewers catch a lot of potential problem caches, but can't catch them all. There are clueless cachers out there and dishonest ones as well, so no matter what you do, these caches will get by. Therefore it's up to the community (in this case you) to point them out and inform their local reviewer if necessary.

[+Renegade Knight]

The don't need permission regardless. Believe it or not there are many park systems that don't have a problem with geocaching and don't want to be bothered with administering caches.

 

The guidelines require "adequate" permission, meaning obtaining permission on private property and on public lands where it's required.

 

but how would the cache placer know whether the public lands require permission if they don't ask? For instance, suppose this land was owned by the town, and not private. The town could have a policy saying no caches, or caches, but you have to let us know about it (in one town park a cache had to be moved because a windmill was being installed, so in that situation it helped that the town knew about it).

 

Cathy

Did you ask to use the public streets this morning or did you assume you had permission? Did you cross onto private property at least once today and aslo assume permission was granted for you to do so? If your employer leases, does the lease explicity allow you to be on the premisis? Do you know? Have you seen the lease?

 

Caching is a casual land among many others that are commonplace in our world. Permission is needed where it's needed. Not where it's not and we all have to figure it out.

[+Renegade Knight]

...My problem is that I've got FOUR cachers who all assumed that it was public land (despite LOTS of evidence to the contrary), and they also assume they don't need to get permission for public land. So how do we prevent this from happening in the future, either on the same land in question, or on other private-but-open-to-the-public land that exists in my town?

 

Revers the question.

How do we ensure that kids won't play on those private lands that accomodate the public?

Do we even want to go there?

[vermontcathy]

And I think it would be a great idea to go to a local event and talk this over with other cachers who live in your area.

 

Ha, ha. That's funny. Reading every week's Groundspeak email, I've never seen an event anywhere in my state.

 

well, there was a event two weeks ago, and there's another one this month.

 

i AM a geocacher who lives in your area, and it's not hard to make contact with the rest of us.

 

Huh. I do try to read Groundspeak each week, and have never seen anything. Are the events posted there?

[vermontcathy]

 

and the guideline doesn't say explicit permission is required; it says that adequate permission is required.

 

The policy says, and I quote, "you need to contact the managing agency". How is it possibly to mis-interpret that? What am I missing here?

[vermontcathy]

Caching is a casual land among many others that are commonplace in our world. Permission is needed where it's needed. Not where it's not and we all have to figure it out.

 

RIGHT EXACTLY! THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY POINT! The people who place the caches need to figure it out, and four different people failed to figure that out in this situation.

 

All I want is to prevent this (placing caches on open to the public, but privately owned land, without permission) in the future. If people had to get permission for ALL caches, that would solve the problem of people incorrectly assuming it is public. But OK, you don't want that. Fine. But then how do we stop people who do absolutely zero research on the land and assume it is public if it isn't?

[vermontcathy]

...My problem is that I've got FOUR cachers who all assumed that it was public land (despite LOTS of evidence to the contrary), and they also assume they don't need to get permission for public land. So how do we prevent this from happening in the future, either on the same land in question, or on other private-but-open-to-the-public land that exists in my town?

 

Revers the question.

How do we ensure that kids won't play on those private lands that accomodate the public?

Do we even want to go there?

 

I don't understand what you are saying. Could you clarify? Kids (and anyone else) ARE allowed on the land. It is privately owned, but open to the public to use (OBVIOUSLY with restrictions - users can't cut down the land owner's trees, pitch a tent and camp overnight, etc.).

[Neos2]

My problem is that I've got FOUR cachers who all assumed that it was public land (despite LOTS of evidence to the contrary), and they also assume they don't need to get permission for public land. So how do we prevent this from happening in the future, either on the same land in question, or on other private-but-open-to-the-public land that exists in my town?

Contact the reviewer. Let them know that there are multiple pieces of land in your immediate area that are open to the public for use but privately owned. Let them know that you are conerned that cachers need to consider special actions for these land areas --asking permission, thanking the owner for allowing the trails to exist, adding links to the town trail map, putting all the special request info on the cache page so someone's livestock doesn't get loose, etc

 

Go to an event in your area. Talk to other cachers. Many of them will have managed to miss the webpage for the trails. Some of them will not have considered the need to acknowledge private ownership of land that has been allowed to be used publically. Perhaps you can make them aware of the risks in that way of looking at things; perhaps they can help assure you that most of the caches are in compliance and you can all work together to get the rest to that point.

 

Email the cacher owners (this one can be tricky--if they already have a cache there it's their "baby" and they'll feel as protective of it as you do about the landowners rights--so be careful how you approach this. Wait until you are calm before pushing the send button). If you know the landowner, ask the cche owner if they would like you to help them contact the land owners to get permission for the cache. Send them links to the trail webpage that has info they will need to protect the integrity of the cache and the land.

 

Email a couple of the more actively involved cachers in your area. Ones that know the area and the trail systems and perhaps know some of the people from the governmental agencies too. Look for people who have caches nearby that are done in a way you admire. Ask their assistance in spreading the word. Meet them for coffee somewhere and get them to fill you in on the local geocaching scene.

 

If you know of specific issues (i.e. endangered animals near a cache, gates being left open, etc) email the cache owner so they cqan handle the problem.

 

I just saw your last post...OK...HOST an event in your area. Get a local restaurant to save the big back room for you and invite everyone out for dinner (they pay their own way) and some conversation. You don't have to get fancy with prizes and all the other rigamarole for the first get-together. If you want some sort of "reason" to get together, perhaps your theme for the night could be to plan a CITO event for the end of the year along one of the most visited trails with geocaches--What a great way to give a little something back to the property owners who donate the use of their land.

[+Team Taran]

I'm puzzled. When I want to know what is allowed on land open to the public, I look at posted rules. Generally when public trails use private land with permission, rules are posted as to what is permissible use just as they are on most public land. If there is no policy on generally accepted usage, I assume it ie okay. If I want to take my dog for a walk in a park or along a public path, I look to see what rules are posted. If there is no information on dogs on the sign, I assume it is allowed, I don't call the land manger and ask.

Team Taran

[Neos2]

And I think it would be a great idea to go to a local event and talk this over with other cachers who live in your area.

 

Ha, ha. That's funny. Reading every week's Groundspeak email, I've never seen an event anywhere in my state.

 

well, there was a event two weeks ago, and there's another one this month.

 

i AM a geocacher who lives in your area, and it's not hard to make contact with the rest of us.

 

Huh. I do try to read Groundspeak each week, and have never seen anything. Are the events posted there?

The events are posted in the weekly email. If I remember right the order is general news then mega events by date, then the next section is the local events (I can't remember if it's by date or by increasing distance from your home cords) and then caches (by distance from your home cords).

 

There is one near you on the 8th of June about 15 miles (straightline) from the last cache you logged.

 

Early Summer Get Together by Cornflakes (GC1C24J)

[vermontcathy]

I'm puzzled. When I want to know what is allowed on land open to the public, I look at posted rules. Generally when public trails use private land with permission, rules are posted as to what is permissible use just as they are on most public land. If there is no policy on generally accepted usage, I assume it ie okay. If I want to take my dog for a walk in a park or along a public path, I look to see what rules are posted. If there is no information on dogs on the sign, I assume it is allowed, I don't call the land manger and ask.

Team Taran

 

Oh, come on! You expect a huge sign listing every possible thing that is and isn't allowed?? "Please do not start a forest fire. Please do not cut down our trees and sell the wood. Please do not grow pot on our land. Please do not string all our trees with christmas lights just because you think it looks cute. Please do not camp here overnight. Please do not start a vegetable garden on our land."

 

You may be shocked to know that there isn't even a sign at the entrance to this land. Welcome to Vermont! We expect people to be responsible and respectful.

 

Cathy

[CoyoteRed]

OK, I'm beginning to soften a little (but only a little) on my opinion that people need to get permission when placing a cache on public land. My opinion is significantly influenced by geocaching.com's own statement that people do need to contact the managing agency. If that rule is not true (if people don't have to contact the managing agency) then the statement should be removed from geocaching.com.

GC.com is a business. It is in the business of being a business that happens to list geocaches. Some of the policies don't quite mesh with the activity itself.

 

The standard for permission is "adequate." This is what the site says regardless of what it says elsewhere. As been mentioned already in this thread, some folks know about geocaching, but don't want to know about geocaching on their property. You can't have explicit permission in all cases.

 

Yes, you should always determine whether you have permission--unspoken, tacit, explicit, express, or otherwise--from the steward of the land on which you are placing your cache. Yes, it can be a bit confusing. Yes, it can be hard to know what to ask, if you're going to "spill the beans," etc.

 

Sometimes you can get "sideways" permission by asking about other activities that are allowed on the land:

• Do I need to stay on the trails?
  
• Where can I just cut through to enjoy the scenery off-trail?
  
• Are there places you'd rather I not go off trail?
  
• Do you mind of I tell my friends about this place?
  
• I might find a spot that I enjoy so much that I might take GPS coordinates and share with my friends, would that be okay?
  

...etc.

 

You can get a sense of what is allowed by asking about other things that are allowed. This is especially helpful when there are already caches in place and you don't want an adverse reaction by the steward getting upset when they discover caches already on their lands.

 

Also, it would be a bad idea to require listing to say "this cache placed by permission" if explicit permission had been obtained unless it is required by the land steward. The reason being those caches that don't have explicit permission would be assumed doesn't have permission at all when, if fact, they do. Please refer back to those land stewards who don't want to know about the caches for liability reasons.

 

Personally, while the guidelines can be a bit confusing or contradictory I think they are accurate though not exactly user-friendly.

 

In your case, you could become the land owner / geocacher liaison. It sounds like you are sensitive to both sides. Yes, now that there are caches in place without explicit permission it can be a very delicate situation. You might have to feel your way through and not drop a bomb. You might try approaching individuals instead of a committee and work your way up the chain.

 

Permission is probably the hardest, most misunderstood, and confusing administrative duty a cache owner faces. Some folks simply don't bother with it much like other duties. It's human nature to want to do only the fun parts. That attitude can come back to bite, though.

 

Hope this helps.

[vermontcathy]

Huh. I do try to read Groundspeak each week, and have never seen anything. Are the events posted there?

The events are posted in the weekly email. If I remember right the order is general news then mega events by date, then the next section is the local events (I can't remember if it's by date or by increasing distance from your home cords) and then caches (by distance from your home cords).

 

There is one near you on the 8th of June about 15 miles (straightline) from the last cache you logged.

 

Early Summer Get Together by Cornflakes (GC1C24J)

 

Thanks for pointing this out. I incorrectly thought the list was in increasing distance from my home location, as the Recently Published Caches are. I wonder why some sections of that email are in increasing distance, and others aren't...

Edited June 2, 2008 by vermontcathy

[+Team Taran]

I said generally ACCEPTED uses. I think walking a dog on a public path is generally accepted. I also think hiding a container so that it is not noticeable unless you are looking for it and can be accessed without damaging the environment is generally acceptable in areas open to the public for hiking, photography, bird watching and Frisbee playing.

Team Taran

[+StarBrand]

I'm puzzled. When I want to know what is allowed on land open to the public, I look at posted rules. Generally when public trails use private land with permission, rules are posted as to what is permissible use just as they are on most public land. If there is no policy on generally accepted usage, I assume it ie okay. If I want to take my dog for a walk in a park or along a public path, I look to see what rules are posted. If there is no information on dogs on the sign, I assume it is allowed, I don't call the land manger and ask.

Team Taran

 

Oh, come on! You expect a huge sign listing every possible thing that is and isn't allowed?? "Please do not start a forest fire. Please do not cut down our trees and sell the wood. Please do not grow pot on our land. Please do not string all our trees with christmas lights just because you think it looks cute. Please do not camp here overnight. Please do not start a vegetable garden on our land."

 

You may be shocked to know that there isn't even a sign at the entrance to this land. Welcome to Vermont! We expect people to be responsible and respectful.

 

Cathy

Oh come on!!! If I am standing there with my dog ready for a walk - do you expect me to call and ask for permission before proceding?? Or can I safely assume that if it wasn't important enough to put up a sign I should be safe??

 

There really are some things we can and should expect to NOT have to ask about on public lands. I firmly believe Geocaching is one of them. I will respect and follow any and all rules they may have posted or available for reading but I am not going to call each and every land manager, each and every time I go geocaching. I ask others, I check websites, I look for signs. I obey what is there. But I don't call. The only reason I have every worked with such land mangers is to avoid security concerns.

 

In your situation - if the land is private and they do not have explicit permission, the caches are wrong. But do not extend that philosophy to each and every parcel of public land.