are churches private property?

[+svladcjelli]

What do you think? Is a church property a valid place to hide a cache without approval of the 'owners'? Are there owners? From my perspective churches are not public property, but caches are regularly hidden on church property with no note claiming permission. I personally have a problem tramping on church property without knowing the legality of my movements. I tried to find something in the cache hiding guidelines, but I can't even see the section about getting permission for caches on private property (?)... In fact all I see (at http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx) is "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.", which seems slightly less stern than the last time I checked them.

[+Juicepig]

they are private property, and permission needs to be sought.

 

Caches without appropriate permissions are a breach in guidelines

Edited July 21, 2008 by Juicepig

[+StarBrand]

All churches I know of are owned by the church or its membership. So you would need permission.

 

There is no requirement to list who gave you permission in the listing however. Or even that you got permission. You just have to check the box that says you got adequate permission to hide there.

[+flask]

they are private property, and permission needs to be sought

 

yes indeedy. private property. you will also need to make sure the cache does not appear to promote a religious agenda.

[PastorJon]

Had to chime in...

 

Yup--private property.

 

To help you prepare, here are some of the questions the pastor might ask or think about (unless s/he immediately says, "no.")

 

1) Will they show up to do this game while church is in session?

2) Will this activity increase the likelihood of break-ins?

3) Will this negatively impact our childcare, dayschool, sr. group, etc.

4) Are there any legal/insurance liabilities if we allow this activity?

5) What happens when our youth group discovers this thing while playing sardines?

6) What if people put drugs or weapons in the cache?

 

Good luck!

[+gpsfun]

It is not unusual for cache owners to provide information in a reviewer note regarding permission being obtained. Pre-publication reviewer notes are archived during the publication process.

[Luckless]

Had to chime in...

 

Yup--private property.

 

To help you prepare, here are some of the questions the pastor might ask or think about (unless s/he immediately says, "no.")

 

1) Will they show up to do this game while church is in session?

2) Will this activity increase the likelihood of break-ins?

3) Will this negatively impact our childcare, dayschool, sr. group, etc.

4) Are there any legal/insurance liabilities if we allow this activity?

5) What happens when our youth group discovers this thing while playing sardines?

6) What if people put drugs or weapons in the cache?

 

Good luck!

 

You can apply the above to a lot of caches - not just church caches.

[+tozainamboku]

I suspect that most caches at churches are hidden with permission. Most of the time the hider has hidden a cache at a church they attend and so they know who to ask. There is one thing about hiding a cache at a church without permission - you can always ask forgiveness.

[+svladcjelli]

so, part 2, do I just ignore caches which are on church property and say nothing about permission, or do I report them, or ask if permission was granted? I know our reviewer has seen and approved them, so perhaps the hider had permission, but it is not indicated anywhere. I won't go find them, but tons of other people do. I don't want to be 'that guy' really, and don't care too much beyond the fact it could be a black eye for gc.com in general if a problem happened, and also that it seems a slippery slope, let them be hidden there, schools as well (there are a few in my area, which do not specifically say permission was granted), why not just hide them anywhere you want?

 

If I feel a place is private property, or if I am not sure even, I usually turn around.

[PastorJon]

 

You can apply the above to a lot of caches - not just church caches.

 

Agreed...

 

I suspect that most caches at churches are hidden with permission. Most of the time the hider has hidden a cache at a church they attend and so they know who to ask. There is one thing about hiding a cache at a church without permission - you can always ask forgiveness.

 

As they say, "it's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission..."

[PastorJon]

so, part 2, do I just ignore caches which are on church property and say nothing about permission, or do I report them, or ask if permission was granted? I know our reviewer has seen and approved them, so perhaps the hider had permission, but it is not indicated anywhere. I won't go find them, but tons of other people do. I don't want to be 'that guy' really, and don't care too much beyond the fact it could be a black eye for gc.com in general if a problem happened, and also that it seems a slippery slope, let them be hidden there, schools as well (there are a few in my area, which do not specifically say permission was granted), why not just hide them anywhere you want?

 

If I feel a place is private property, or if I am not sure even, I usually turn around.

 

Isn't the idea of the review process that the hider has to state that permission has been granted?

 

I would assume that permission has been granted for caching, unless you see a sign that indicates otherwise.

 

Having said that, I think that common sense would dictate that you visit when church is not in session, and avoid nighttime hours (since police may often keep an eye out on the church, as a target for breakins).

[+J-Way]

All churches I know of are owned by the church or its membership. So you would need permission

Most Anglican (Episcopal, Church of England, etc.) and Catholic churches are actually owned by the Diocese (administrative territorial unit administered by a bishop) and not the local congregation. This makes church splits unusually messy.

 

But I'd bet that getting permission from the local Rector/Priest/Pastor for cache placement would be sufficient.

[+AKStafford]

I'm on staff at a church, and have used Geocaching and Geocaching stories in many of my sermons. We even took our Young Adults group out caching one night.

I haven't hidden a cache on our church property yet, mainly because I haven't thought of a good one yet. If some one came and asked permission, we'd grant it if everything was done right. If it was hidden without permission, I'd ask to have it removed simply because they didn't follow the process.

We have major problems with people abusing our property. We've had trash dumped and vehicles abandoned. We've had drug deals and some steamy, romantic encounters. We regularly get people who bring their dogs here to walk them, and do not clean up after them. Our parking lot is gravel, and often get people doing spinning donuts. It cost a fortune to maintain the lot, and that doesn't help.

So, we are a little touchy about people just assuming church property isn't private property, but if some one treated it with respect, we'd be very open to it.

[+flask]

if your question is about placing a cache, assume you need permission.

 

if it's hunting the cache, behave as if you have permission. if you are questioned, be honest. if the cache doesn't have appropriate permission, it will be smoked out. if it does, your presence is no mystery.

[+Lil Devil]

The reviewer, and therefor Groundspeak, was satisfied enough that permission was obtained that they published the cache. I would go with the assumption that if it is published it is OK to search for it. If that later proves to be untrue, then deal with it then. The worst that is going to happen is the pastor is going to ask you to leave.

[+svladcjelli]

guess I really want to minimize encounters with property owners, so this was the major reason for asking. I will avoid church caches unless it explicitly states permission was sought and granted.

[+flask]

The worst that is going to happen is the pastor is going to ask you to leave.

 

i can think of worse things that could happen.

[+J-Way]

Isn't the idea of the review process that the hider has to state that permission has been granted?

 

I would assume that permission has been granted for caching, unless you see a sign that indicates otherwise.

 

Having said that, I think that common sense would dictate that you visit when church is not in session, and avoid nighttime hours (since police may often keep an eye out on the church, as a target for breakins).

The guidelines are rather vague on the issue of permission. The only consensus I've ever seen is that the guidelines require "adequate" permission, and different people define "adequate" in different ways. Some say that any cache on any property requires explicit permision from the land owner or manager. Some people say that if a parking lot doesn't have a locked gate or "Posted" signs, then it's public property and open to caching. Others take the stance that "what they don't know won't hurt them", and hide anywhere they want.

 

I was thinking about hiding a cache under a HUGE cross in our church parking lot (Cache Name: At His Feet), but I quickly backed away when I thought about people hunting at all hours. We have a day care 5 days a week and services several (it varies from 3 to 7) days of the week.

 

I've personally found many caches on church property (most state explicit permission), and I've backed away from finding many caches on church property when church is in session.

Edited July 21, 2008 by J-Way

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

so, part 2, do I just ignore caches which are on church property and say nothing about permission, or do I report them, or ask if permission was granted?

 

Of course church property is private, but you knew that.

 

Part 2 is really your question. The only answer to that will have to come from within you - do you see yourself as a geocacher or as GeoSuperCop, Enforcer Of All Laws?

 

If the former you will soon figure out that most caches have no permission, whether required or not, and either go on with your game or drop out.

 

If the latter you're gonna be one busy (and quite unpopular!) individual!

[+KG1960]

Had to chime in...

 

1) Will they show up to do this game while church is in session?

2) Will this activity increase the likelihood of break-ins?

3) Will this negatively impact our childcare, dayschool, sr. group, etc.

4) Are there any legal/insurance liabilities if we allow this activity?

5) What happens when our youth group discovers this thing while playing sardines?

6) What if people put drugs or weapons in the cache?

 

Good luck!

 

I used to be on the church council at my church. These questions would be exactly what we would ask. The geocache question never came up, but if it did, we would probably allow it with the above concerns (except for #6 only because I don't think anyone would have thought of it). I think we would have thought of a cache as a way of getting more people aware of the church and maybe even pick up a new member or two (there wouldn't be any religious stuff in the cache, just being on church property would be enough of an "advertisement").

 

The church is private property. The title to the land and building is in the name of the local church, with no mention of even the national affiliation.

 

The church does have a weekday pre-school for 3 and 4 year olds, so someone snooping around the building or nearby bushes would probably raise attention. Since we have a fairly large piece of land, we probably would allow a cache only some distance from the building - 200 to 300 feet away could be easily done.

 

If we did find a unknown cache on our property, it would probably be removed and questioned what it was (keep in mind no one but me knows what geocaching is, and I didn't know about it until 2 1/2 years ago).

 

Just my perspective on this subject........

[+tozainamboku]

so, part 2, do I just ignore caches which are on church property and say nothing about permission, or do I report them, or ask if permission was granted? .....

If I feel a place is private property, or if I am not sure even, I usually turn around.

Churches fall some place between retail businesses and a private home in how comfortable you should feel looking without permission. Most churches are open and even encourage the public to come in. Of course if your wandering around in an area looking for a cache someone may ask if they can help you. Here it pays to be honest, if the cache was placed with permission you'll be allowed to find it (or be told to come back when there isn't a wedding going on). If not you'll probably just be asked to leave. Searching at night might not be a very good idea however. Many synagogues and most mosques are a bit more sensitive to having people searching as these houses of worship are sometimes considered terrorist targets. Less likely that permission would be granted here. I suppose a church whose pastor has taken a controversial stand on some issue might also have to be a bit more careful about who they let on the property.

 

I wouldn't worry too much just because a cache is on private property. It depends a lot more on whether or not this is a place where I'd feel comfortable being without an explicit invitation to be on the property. If this is the type of property where I wouldn't generally go without being invited I won't look for the cache unless the cache page indicates permission. Otherwise, I'll look and just try to be stealthy (meaning not act in a suspicious manner the best I can while looking for something).

[+briansnat]

guess I really want to minimize encounters with property owners, so this was the major reason for asking. I will avoid church caches unless it explicitly states permission was sought and granted.

 

That's my method. If it looks like private property and there is no mention of permission, I just pass on it.

 

Churches fall some place between retail businesses and a private home in how comfortable you should feel looking without permission. Most churches are open and even encourage the public to come in

 

In many cases the pastor or priest lives on the property, so to me it's closer to a private home.

[+svladcjelli]

In many cases the pastor or priest lives on the property, so to me it's closer to a private home.

 

Good point, in the case I am thinking of, the residence is onsite, and the bedroom would be less than 100m from cache site.

 

I ain't gonna police anyone, just won't go.

[+crevis79]

I have a church cache. This location was approved by the pastor and the trustee board and grounds crew all know about it. This way if there are any questions, someone will know about it.

 

The way the church looked at it, this was another way to get people to the grass of the church. If they made it that far, maybe the would come inside.

 

My thought was, approval was gotten and they were actually keeping an eye on the cache for me and let me know when there was an issue or it came up missing. The exposes alot of people to geocaching.

 

Recruiting from both sides of the table.

[+Renegade Knight]

...but caches are regularly hidden on church property with no note claiming permission....

 

They need adequate permission. A note isn't required, nor is it proof of adequate permission. I would not place such a note in my cache unless the church specificly asked for it to be there.

[+Renegade Knight]

...6) What if people put drugs or weapons in the cache?...

 

It's amazing how often this question comes up.

[+WebChimp]

What do you think? Is a church property a valid place to hide a cache without approval of the 'owners'? Are there owners? From my perspective churches are not public property, but caches are regularly hidden on church property with no note claiming permission.

 

Church property is most definitely private property.

 

I have a cache hidden on church property, and it is hidden with permission of the board of trustees.

 

Each denomination handles things differently. For some you needs to talk to the trustees, for some the deacons, for some the pastor or the priest.

[+J-Way]

I have a cache hidden on church property, and it is hidden with permission of the board of trustees.

Does this cache involve steps? If so, sweet! A hint! I might be in the area this weekend so I need to dig out my notes and start counting again.

[+WebChimp]

Does this cache involve steps? If so, sweet! A hint!

 

Wrong cache, buddy-roo.

 

The one involving steps does involve the edifices you referenced, but never has it been claimed that the final stage is on church property. Of course, that might also depend on how you define "church".

 

Now, you may have to visit some churches. Maybe.

 

The one that is hidden on church property is far simpler than the one you are thinking of, and is a different listing.

 

Thanks for asking. It's nice to know that some of my simple little hides are, at least in part, memorable.

[+infiniteMPG]

I have a church cache. This location was approved by the pastor and the trustee board and grounds crew all know about it. This way if there are any questions, someone will know about it.

Just got a FTF on a church cache that had listed they had the pastor's permission. Went there on a Monday morning and the parking area was packed and the cache was behind a fenced off storage area way in the back where church equipment is stored. While I think the pastor may have given permission, it did not appear the congregation or general church public knew as the looks I got walking thry the parking area in my camo gear made me think about going inside to ask for forgiveness.

 

Church caches are borderline on my list even with permission, unless very carefully placed. There is normally daycare services, schooling and lots of children's activities there even during the week and outsiders are often scrutanized.