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Unacceptable Cache Hides - In Your Opinion


Headhardhat

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I received an interesting post on my blog yesterday from a cacher who did not think placing a cache so close to an electrical box was such a good idea. I can completely see his point to a degree but on the other hand did not think of it as a major deal. There have in the past been other forum posts where people have voiced displeasure of using electrical boxes and such (real or fake) as cache hosts in any way.

 

My question to you is what do you feel is not acceptable as a cache hide and why? Maybe we can see some patterns of what people really do not like to look for when caching.

 

***Note this discussion does not have to partain to just electrical hosts...

 

-HHH :laughing:

Edited by Headhardhat
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I received an interesting post on my blog yesterday from a cacher who did not think placing a cache so close to an electrical box was such a good idea. I can completely see his point to a degree but on the other hand did not think of it as a major deal. There have in the past been other forum posts where people have voiced displeasure of using electrical boxes and such (real or fake) as cache hosts in any way.

 

My question to you is what do you feel is not acceptable as a cache hide and why? Maybe we can see some patterns of what people really do not like to look for when caching.

 

-HHH :laughing:

 

For this cache listing site: One that does not fully meet guidelines. Period.

 

For any other listing: One that is hidden without regard to common sense. See the unarbitray parts of this site's guidelines for reference.

 

Aesthetics doesn't even enter the equation.

Edited by Snoogans
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I thought caches placed on or made to resemble electrical equipment were not within the current guidelines.

Really? I hadn't heard that. I'll have to go re-read the guidelines since they may have been changed since I've read them last. It's been a while since I've hidden one.

 

Or do you have a quote handy?

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I thought caches placed on or made to resemble electrical equipment were not within the current guidelines.

Really? I hadn't heard that. I'll have to go re-read the guidelines since they may have been changed since I've read them last. It's been a while since I've hidden one.

 

Or do you have a quote handy?

 

http://forums.iowageocachers.org/viewtopic.php?t=820

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: No caches that simulate electrical equipment

IowaAdmin

I recently turned down a new geocache listing because the cache was on or near electrical equipment. That owner then wrote to me to tell me about 4 other similar geocaches that were approved. So I looked at each listing and archived each of them. This policy is endorsed by Groundspeak and most approvers. It's unsafe to make a geocache look like part of electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers -- including children -- to open "live" equipment. So even though you can buy these types of containers on eBay sites, please don't submit them for approval. They are simply not a good idea and may lead to tragic consequences in the future.

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I thought caches placed on or made to resemble electrical equipment were not within the current guidelines.

Really? I hadn't heard that. I'll have to go re-read the guidelines since they may have been changed since I've read them last. It's been a while since I've hidden one.

 

Or do you have a quote handy?

 

http://forums.iowageocachers.org/viewtopic.php?t=820

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: No caches that simulate electrical equipment

IowaAdmin

I recently turned down a new geocache listing because the cache was on or near electrical equipment. That owner then wrote to me to tell me about 4 other similar geocaches that were approved. So I looked at each listing and archived each of them. This policy is endorsed by Groundspeak and most approvers. It's unsafe to make a geocache look like part of electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers -- including children -- to open "live" equipment. So even though you can buy these types of containers on eBay sites, please don't submit them for approval. They are simply not a good idea and may lead to tragic consequences in the future.

In my opinion, IowaAdmin was out of line. He needs to list or not list caches based on whether the listing guidelines were followed, not based on whether he or anyone else thinks that it is approprite to hide a cache on or near electrical equipment, real or fake. Edited by sbell111
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I thought caches placed on or made to resemble electrical equipment were not within the current guidelines.

Really? I hadn't heard that. I'll have to go re-read the guidelines since they may have been changed since I've read them last. It's been a while since I've hidden one.

 

Or do you have a quote handy?

 

http://forums.iowageocachers.org/viewtopic.php?t=820

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: No caches that simulate electrical equipment

IowaAdmin

I recently turned down a new geocache listing because the cache was on or near electrical equipment. That owner then wrote to me to tell me about 4 other similar geocaches that were approved. So I looked at each listing and archived each of them. This policy is endorsed by Groundspeak and most approvers. It's unsafe to make a geocache look like part of electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers -- including children -- to open "live" equipment. So even though you can buy these types of containers on eBay sites, please don't submit them for approval. They are simply not a good idea and may lead to tragic consequences in the future.

Whoa! Seriously? Reviewers can now make up unpublished guidelines and enforce them, or not, at their whim? :laughing:

 

The last I heard if a cache was within the guidelines the Reviewer must publish it. Has that changed?

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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In my opinion, IowaAdmin was out of line. He needs to list or not list caches based on whether the listing guidelines were followed, not based on whether he or anyone else thinks that it is approprite to hide a cache on or near electrical equipment, real or fake.

 

Well, it's the enforced policy here in Iowa.

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I thought caches placed on or made to resemble electrical equipment were not within the current guidelines.

Really? I hadn't heard that. I'll have to go re-read the guidelines since they may have been changed since I've read them last. It's been a while since I've hidden one.

 

Or do you have a quote handy?

 

http://forums.iowageocachers.org/viewtopic.php?t=820

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: No caches that simulate electrical equipment

IowaAdmin

I recently turned down a new geocache listing because the cache was on or near electrical equipment. That owner then wrote to me to tell me about 4 other similar geocaches that were approved. So I looked at each ...

 

This topic does not have to be restricted to electrical hosts, though it does appear to be a hotspot.

 

I reread the guidelines and could not find any reference to not using fake electrical boxes. I did see one reference to "wires" coming out of a cache making it look suspicious. Making a suspicious looking container in a muggle prone area is just plain nutz. That being said I would love to see actual guidelines noted with the use of what we can or cannot use as actual hosts? I could not find it in the current guideline documentation.

 

-HHH

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As an electrician for more years than I care, I would have to agree with the concerns about putting caches "in" electrical equipment. Putting them around or on the outside of a piece of electrical equipment is not in my opinion a problem. Sometimes in an urban environment they are just to handy to pass up. Unless there are specific written guide lines, which I have not seen, I say let them go.

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To me any hide that is on or in a Hydrant or on, near or in a BLDG's FD connection is unacceptable. If I find one like this I will put an SBA on it.

 

These locations can result in damage to FD equipment (a basic pumper cost $200,000), putting an FD pump out of service till repaired. Result in loss of water and endangerment of FD lives. Loss of life and property.

 

I have heard of some hides like this. I have not come across a hide like this. If I do I will put an SBA on it and email the owner and reviewer about this.

 

Otherwise even though I do not like the electrical hides (trust me 480 V AC was bad enough, 18000 V AC is MUCH worse) they still meet the standards. I think most people do know not to open a transformer case. Also most people are smart enough to see the fake over the real. (At least I hope so)

 

I hope this helps

 

kf4oox - Paul

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As an electrician for more years than I care, I would have to agree with the concerns about putting caches "in" electrical equipment. Putting them around or on the outside of a piece of electrical equipment is not in my opinion a problem. Sometimes in an urban environment they are just to handy to pass up. Unless there are specific written guide lines, which I have not seen, I say let them go.

I don't think the concern is putting caches "in" dangerous electrical equipment. We all would agree that's not good.

 

There seems to be two major concerns: putting caches inside "fake" electrical equipment, and putting caches on the outside of real electrical equipment.

 

Some people assume that if a cacher finds a cache inside fake electrical equipment, it'll only serve to suggest that they open up the dangerous kind on the next cache hunt, and therefore it's too risky.

 

They also assume that if a cache is hidden on the outside of a transformer, junction box, or something else, the finder could get electrocuted because these items are just as dangerous on the outside as they are on the inside.

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They also assume that if a cache is hidden on the outside of a transformer, junction box, or something else, the finder could get electrocuted because these items are just as dangerous on the outside as they are on the inside.

It's not just that. Knowing that caches are sometimes hidden in fake electrical boxes, a person may open a real box in their hunt for a cache that is next to but not in such a box.

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They also assume that if a cache is hidden on the outside of a transformer, junction box, or something else, the finder could get electrocuted because these items are just as dangerous on the outside as they are on the inside.
It's not just that. Knowing that caches are sometimes hidden in fake electrical boxes, a person may open a real box in their hunt for a cache that is next to but not in such a box.

That's also a good point. I wish I'd made it.

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They also assume that if a cache is hidden on the outside of a transformer, junction box, or something else, the finder could get electrocuted because these items are just as dangerous on the outside as they are on the inside.
It's not just that. Knowing that caches are sometimes hidden in fake electrical boxes, a person may open a real box in their hunt for a cache that is next to but not in such a box.

That's also a good point. I wish I'd made it.

Oops

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In my opinion, IowaAdmin was out of line. He needs to list or not list caches based on whether the listing guidelines were followed, not based on whether he or anyone else thinks that it is approprite to hide a cache on or near electrical equipment, real or fake.

 

Well, it's the enforced policy here in Iowa.

Just because a reviewer is enforcing it, doesn't make it policy (or right).

Edited by sbell111
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If caches are placed on utility electrical or communications boxes, they can be considered to be tresspassing as they are the private property of the utility and are protected as such. This kind of placement does fall under the No Tresspassing guideline.

 

Fake boxes should be far enough away from the above as to not be mistaken for the real thing. I found one where the box was obviously not a part of a utility hookup although at first blush it could fool anybody.

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This situation calls for common sense.

 

The most dangerous electrical-themed cache I have ever seen was a door prize at GW5... won and later hidden by a Reviewer!

 

It was a metal electric exterior wall-plug box mounted on a length of conduit pipe. You not only had to remove the box cover but inside was a standard wall plug with wires attached, you pulled the plug and wires out of the box and conduit and there was a bison tube on the end of the wires!

 

I absolutely hated that cache idea, I thought it set a horrible precedent and taught people that dangerous activities such as disassembling an electrical outlet was cool... but it was within the Guidelines. Still is, I think.

 

On the other hand this and the vast majority of the numerous electrical-theme caches like it that I have seen do not attach to anything... as in this cache they may stand on the conduit and lean against a wall or a pole... you touch it and it falls over, showing that it is in fact a fake.

 

Where does one draw the line between something that is an electrical item but not attached so it's obviously a fake and something that is secured and truly represents an electrical device?

 

And exactly what is a simulated electrical device? A wall plug box? A piece of conduit? A telephone kiosk with a fake flat electrical box cover magneted to it?

 

I would think that if we are going to disallow a cache theme we must be able to describe it.

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If caches are placed on utility electrical or communications boxes, they can be considered to be tresspassing as they are the private property of the utility and are protected as such. This kind of placement does fall under the No Tresspassing guideline.

 

Fake boxes should be far enough away from the above as to not be mistaken for the real thing. I found one where the box was obviously not a part of a utility hookup although at first blush it could fool anybody.

I know of several electrical-themed caches that I know for a fact have permission.

 

I don't think permission is the question here... I am all for adequate permission in general and explicit permission for a cache like this, but the issue was raised as one of safety and propriety, and not listing and archiving caches that are within the published Guidelines.

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In my opinion, IowaAdmin was out of line. He needs to list or not list caches based on whether the listing guidelines were followed, not based on whether he or anyone else thinks that it is approprite to hide a cache on or near electrical equipment, real or fake.

 

Well, it's the enforced policy here in Iowa.

Just because a reviewer is enforcing it, doesn't make it policy (or right).

 

The results are the same. I'm just explaining how things are currently handled in my little corner of the world, that's all.

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To me any hide that is on or in a Hydrant or on, near or in a BLDG's FD connection is unacceptable. If I find one like this I will put an SBA on it.

 

These locations can result in damage to FD equipment (a basic pumper cost $200,000), putting an FD pump out of service till repaired. Result in loss of water and endangerment of FD lives. Loss of life and property.

 

I have heard of some hides like this. I have not come across a hide like this. If I do I will put an SBA on it and email the owner and reviewer about this.

 

Otherwise even though I do not like the electrical hides (trust me 480 V AC was bad enough, 18000 V AC is MUCH worse) they still meet the standards. I think most people do know not to open a transformer case. Also most people are smart enough to see the fake over the real. (At least I hope so)

 

I hope this helps

 

kf4oox - Paul

 

I have found several micros (the majority were nanos) on fire hydrants. While i don't think they are great hides, i don't see them as being a big problem.

 

They could however, and i'm guessing here, be illegal, at least in some areas. Something along the lines of a city ordinance or maybe even federal law that deals with tampering of fire fighting equipment? It could also cause a muggle concern if they saw people searching around them. Still, at least until i knew all the facts, i wouldn't submit an sba when i found one.

 

Caches hidden around electrical equipment aren't anything bad and are usually as safe as any other cache. Again, and imo, these aren't usually the greatest hides, but i don't have a problem with them when i run across them. And same as above and depending on who owns the equipment, hopefully they aren't illegal in some way and they do have permission to be placed.

 

Actually, i think we are in good shape in that the present guidelines cover everything that we need to be concerned about, pretty well. :laughing:

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I'm not keen on caches that look like things that are supposed to be there and might encourage cachers to wrongly disassemble things just like it.

 

An old complaint a friend made to me was somebody made a cache out of a lawn sprinkler head (and placed in a lawn). That kind of thinking encourages folks to tamper with sprinklers (which aren't free to repair).

 

It certainly is clever to use such a device, and it will fool people. However, it can cause unintended property damage. Certainly making fake electrical boxes will fool people, and get some people to investigate too closely on real boxes. I can make my box look real with extra cables and such.

 

Furthermore, it's not just power company boxes. I can go to home depot and buy a breaker box, or any number of other electrical housings.

 

Out in the woods, its fair game. In urban land, disguised caches are obviously the name of the game, but they come at a risk.

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I think it's wrong to hide caches in fake tree stumps in the woods. This only encourages cachers to try and get inside other tree stumps and could damage trees, particularly when the cachers start chopping them down in order to get to the stumps.

 

Or they might start driving nails into the trees so they will surly die...

 

:laughing:

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I absolutley detest caches hidden in old stone walls, or even close to stone walls (unless there is a clear warning on the page that the wall should not be part of the environment that is searched)! Even if you, the hider, think it is easy to find the cache...the searcher may have poor satellite reception and may start searching 30' away. Or the cache might get moved because someone forgets exactly where to replace it. Or the cache may fall down between the rocks and be unfindable without dismantling a section of the wall. Or careless searchers may wantonly remove stones and not replace them. Or thorough searchers may start removing stones then forget how to rebuild the wall correctly. Or a concerned member of the public may report a cacher for vandalism even if the cacher is carefully removing and replacing only one stone at a time.

 

If you really, really feel you have to hide a cache in a stone wall, then you really, really should tell people exactly where it is ("about three feet to the left of the oak tree, and two feet from the bottom of the wall, under the flat tan stone" would not be overly specific in my opinion). In a case like this, the point of the cache ought to be the view, the hike, the puzzle, the historical significance of the site or something similar. Thinking that it will be clever and make for a tricky hide to utilize a stonewall for your "needle in a haystack" type cache is just WRONG!

 

Also, I hate caches in areas infested with ticks, trucker bombs, used condoms, or broken glass and litter. This has more to do with the location rather then the hide itself though.

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This thread had definitely made me rethink my bear trap cache idea.
So I should rethink ZAP, I GOT YOU - GCALL911???

Nope, as of this time it is within the published guidelines! :laughing: List it!

 

I seriously hope that junction box isn't in your house! :laughing:

 

If it is buy fire insurance... lots of fire insurance! Soon!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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If caches are placed on utility electrical or communications boxes, they can be considered to be tresspassing as they are the private property of the utility and are protected as such. This kind of placement does fall under the No Tresspassing guideline.

 

Fake boxes should be far enough away from the above as to not be mistaken for the real thing. I found one where the box was obviously not a part of a utility hookup although at first blush it could fool anybody.

I know of several electrical-themed caches that I know for a fact have permission.

 

I don't think permission is the question here... I am all for adequate permission in general and explicit permission for a cache like this, but the issue was raised as one of safety and propriety, and not listing and archiving caches that are within the published Guidelines.

Permission is irrelevant to the question asked that I answered.

 

The question asked was, is there a guideline against this sort of cache and everybody was looking for electrical devices/safety issue guideline. I provided the correct answer. Permission merely satisfies the No Tresspassing issue.

 

I merely added the caveat about fake boxes.

 

Of course, the OP also raised an ongoing issue... the use of previously placed caches as an example to justify the creation of a new cache which caused a knee-jerk reaction causing those other caches to be archived. The question the reviewer should have asked the other owners prior to archival: Is there permission?

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In my opinion, IowaAdmin was out of line. He needs to list or not list caches based on whether the listing guidelines were followed, not based on whether he or anyone else thinks that it is approprite to hide a cache on or near electrical equipment, real or fake.

 

Well, it's the enforced policy here in Iowa.

Just because a reviewer is enforcing it, doesn't make it policy (or right).

 

The results are the same. I'm just explaining how things are currently handled in my little corner of the world, that's all.

 

IowaAdmin is way out of line. The guidelines are supposed to be uniform, everywhere. If an Iowa cacher appealed their archival, they would likely win with Groundspeak.

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There is electrical wiring inside lamp posts. I have seen Altoid cans touching the wiring inside. This is in fact a dangerous hide. Groundspeak should outlaw lamp post hides.
For a second there I thought you were going to say Groundspeak should outlaw Altoids tin hides and I was readying my pen to sign the petition.... :laughing:
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I absolutley detest caches hidden in old stone walls, or even close to stone walls (unless there is a clear warning on the page that the wall should not be part of the environment that is searched)!

We've seen caches in walls where the cache is a fake rock. Ugh.

 

We've seen caches where the descriptions says something like, "The cache IS NOT in the wall. You DO NOT need to search anywhere in the wall. I repeat, THE CACHE IS NOT IN THE WALL!!!" yet the wall gets destroyed after a couple months. :laughing:

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wired01.jpg

Hey, aren't wire junctions supposed to be inside a closed box? I don't think you could get a cover on that thing! :laughing: Yikes...

Cover?????? Then how would anyone get to the 35mm geocanister hiding in there? Hmmm, maybe I could hide a nano up inside a yellow wire nut and screw it on some dead wires!!!! WooWoo.... all kinds of ideas that would fit with GCALL911..... :laughing: <jk>

 

Seriously, we did a group hunt a few weeks ago and one set of coords took us to an antique street lamp post with nothing else around it. The cast iron cover at the base was gone and there were several heavy gage wires hanging partially out but the lamp seemed functional. We just looked at it, exchanged looks at each other and said "Next!" and left. No way....

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I received an interesting post on my blog yesterday from a cacher who did not think placing a cache so close to an electrical box was such a good idea. I can completely see his point to a degree but on the other hand did not think of it as a major deal. There have in the past been other forum posts where people have voiced displeasure of using electrical boxes and such (real or fake) as cache hosts in any way.

 

Geocaching Electrical Safety (3 pages)

Electrical Boxes as containers

Electrical Box Caches (2 pages)

 

 

My question to you is what do you feel is not acceptable as a cache hide and why? Maybe we can see some patterns of what people really do not like to look for when caching.

 

***Note this discussion does not have to partain to just electrical hosts...

 

-HHH :laughing:

 

I've always hated geocaches hidden near or on electrical equipment. I dislike them because of safety as well as legal issues.

 

I hate caches hidden on Playground equipment. Why would you want to bring adults to a park, to snoop around playground equipment, all the while they are watched and confronted by suspicious parents.

 

 

I can't stand caches hidden underneath lampposts, in the middle of parking lots. These caches have no redeeming value to me.

 

I can't stand caches where the cache hider insists on sharing the "local bum outhouse" or the illegal trash dumping site.

 

I can't stand caches hidden in "full view" of businesses and house, where the people with a view of the cache know nothing about the cache.

Edited by Kit Fox
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Seriously, we did a group hunt a few weeks ago and one set of coords took us to an antique street lamp post with nothing else around it. The cast iron cover at the base was gone and there were several heavy gage wires hanging partially out but the lamp seemed functional. We just looked at it, exchanged looks at each other and said "Next!" and left. No way....

Yeah, smart idea I'd say. We saw one like that before too. The lamp post had been hit by a car, and there were wires sticking out. We stayed. Unsure if they were live or not, but we didn't wan to take a chance.
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IowaAdmin is way out of line. The guidelines are supposed to be uniform, everywhere. If an Iowa cacher appealed their archival, they would likely win with Groundspeak.

 

Really? Well take the advice from someone who has made one too many assumptions concerning guidelines and never say that things are supposed to be uniform. For example, not all countries have a cemetery placement permission requirement.

 

I could tell you one in particular but it would probably just open another can of worms. :laughing:

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To me any hide that is on or in a Hydrant or on, near or in a BLDG's FD connection is unacceptable. If I find one like this I will put an SBA on it.

 

These locations can result in damage to FD equipment (a basic pumper cost $200,000), putting an FD pump out of service till repaired. Result in loss of water and endangerment of FD lives. Loss of life and property.

 

I have heard of some hides like this. I have not come across a hide like this. If I do I will put an SBA on it and email the owner and reviewer about this.

 

Otherwise even though I do not like the electrical hides (trust me 480 V AC was bad enough, 18000 V AC is MUCH worse) they still meet the standards. I think most people do know not to open a transformer case. Also most people are smart enough to see the fake over the real. (At least I hope so)

 

I hope this helps

 

kf4oox - Paul

I see you're in Sharon, Pennsylvania. There's a cache on a fire hydrant somewhere in a county right next to yours. If you SBA it, I'll ignore it, because the cache was hidden with permission.

 

I know of several electrical-themed caches that I know for a fact have permission.

Me too. I know of enough of them that I cannot distinguish among the ones that do have permission information communicated to me (either privately or on the cache page), the ones that have permission but nothing is said about it, and the ones that don't have any permission at all. So, I publish all of them assuming there are no other guideline issues independent of the electrical theme. There's nothing in the guidelines specific to electrical-themed caches, and nothing in the guidelines about "safety."

 

Of course, all local laws apply.

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