Missing travel bugs and geocoins

[+wavector]

I have seen geocachers mention in their log that TB's or geocoins were missing from a cache, in some cases many geocachers mention the missing items. Many trackable item icons show up on lists of caches yet they are not really in the geocaches. In some cases they may have been taken and not yet logged but in the majority of cases they are actually gone with no explanation online or onsite.

Cache owners and trackable item owners can move the item to ? Unknown but I think it would be very good to have a feature that allowed any geocacher to make something like a "Missing Item Report" that would tell everyone the trackable item was not in a geocache.

If the ability to file a "Missing Item Report" was offered it would encourage people to mention trackable items when logging caches.

When a trackable item received a "Missing Item Report" it could simply be "grayed out" of the cache.

Leave it on the cache page (perhaps a dimmed version of the regular icon) but remove it from Inventory and out of the cache listing pages, PQ's and other searches.

If such a "Missing Item Report" generated a log to the trackable item owner and the geocache owner informing them that a "Missing Item Report" had been made they would be encouraged to think about moving the missing item(s) to ? Unknown .

The real benefit would be removing the icons and items from list pages, searches and PQ's so geocachers didn't show up and find that the trackable items listed were not actually in the cache. I know it is possible to tell the items are missing by reading the logs but the searches are hampered if you have to read every cache page to see if someone has mentioned whether or not the trackable items are actually in the cache.

Offering such a function would simply be recognizing the fact that many of these trackable items are already in "limbo" and just appear unneccessarily in searches, listing pages and PQ's.

If an easy to use method let geocachers file a "Missing Item Report" it would benefit everyone.

There are a lot of owners who aren't active (both TB and cache owners) and a lot of items are getting stranded, this has a negative impact on everyone.

Edited January 21, 2009 by wavector

[sdarken]

Although I dont make any caching decisions based on whether trackable items are in a cache or not, your suggestions sound very reasonable to me.

 

I dont think you'd want a "Missing Item Report" actually removing the trackable from the cache page however as this is one of the primary ways that people get to the items to log movements. (The other way is to type in the TB / GC number directly). There are often delays between when a trackable is taken and when it is logged and making it harder for people to log movements would create new problems.

[+wavector]

Although I dont make any caching decisions based on whether trackable items are in a cache or not, your suggestions sound very reasonable to me.

 

I dont think you'd want a "Missing Item Report" actually removing the trackable from the cache page however as this is one of the primary ways that people get to the items to log movements. (The other way is to type in the TB / GC number directly). There are often delays between when a trackable is taken and when it is logged and making it harder for people to log movements would create new problems.

 

You are right sdarken, a "Missing Item Report" or "Gone" function would leave the items right on the cache page so they could still be clicked and linked for logging, it would just enhance the logging of trackable items.

An item wouldn't be moved anywhere, just grayed out as visual cue that it was not in the cache. By simply graying out the TB icon anyone looking at the cache page would have a visual cue that was immediate, a seeker wouldn't have to read through the logs to see the trackable item had been reported missing (sometimes long ago). A log on the trackable item would simply undo the "Missing Item Report" and restore the trackable item for viewing on lists and in searches. The grayed out icon could still link to the TB page and that function would still be useful in cases where someone had just taken the TB and not yet logged it. It might even be better if it was just a log type called "Gone".

If the trackable item is "Gone" from the cache then it needn't be included in searches, it is in the hands of another geocacher or it's missing. If a seeker took an item but had to wait to log the pickup/drop the very next visitor could let everyone see that the item was "Gone" from the cache.

Removing trackable items that are actually "Gone" from the lists of caches and PQ's would be a real benefit for everyone. Looking at lists of caches and seeing icons for trackable items like geocoins or TB's would indicate they were in the cache.

The system is slowly becoming hampered by ghosts of trackable items. If a cache owner and a TB owner have ceased to be active it takes extra work to ensure the listing is corrected when items are "Gone". By adding this "Gone" function Groundspeak could ensure that trackable items that are missing are moved to an intermediate state where they were not yet marked as ? Unknown but seekers would not be required to read cache pages to see that the trackable items listed as being there are not actually in the cache.

Edited January 22, 2009 by wavector

[+Corey]

Possibly an easier solution:

Email your local reviewer or another admin and have them mark the trackable in question "missing".

[AZcachemeister]

I vote for more responsible TB owners.

 

The kind who pay attention to what their bugs are (or are not) doing.

[+wavector]

I vote for more responsible owners for both trackable items and caches. I also do the letter writing thing but that is like standing with your finger in the dike, this issue isn't going to go away. It is simply wishful thinking to imagine that geocachers are going to write letters.

I can find missing items just by looking in any area and reading a few logs. It is a real issue when others start promoting this activity and attracting new geocachers, it just blows up at that point. Here is an example, a geocacher recently asked about getting some TB"s out of their inventory so I took a look at their profile to offer a hand. They were caching in Minnesota in the Minnesota State Park Challenge which really attracted a lot of interest and a lot of new geocachers. Here is a link to their last 25 cache finds, all archived very recently by the Minnesota State Park system.

Looking at the first 10 caches just in this one list reveals that more than 50 trackable items are shown in the listings, reading the cache pages reveals that there are no trackable items in the caches.

Look at all the missing trackable items here!

It is going to generate many unwanted emails to the State Park system. When cachers realize that their items are in archived caches they are going to write and say "Do you have my trackable item?" I am not guessing that this will happen, I get emails even when the logs are totally clear about the fact that items are gone.

Just this one cache, the Fort Snelling State Park History Challenge cache, has 16 trackable items listed on the cache description page but if you read the logs from early December 2008 you see that none of the 16 items are in the cache.

I appreciate the solution that involves getting geocachers to send emails, I have done this on vacation, but this doesn't work any better in Cotati than anywhere else, it doesn't happen. I also like the idea that cache owners and trackable item owners should be responsilbe but saying that does nothing to address the problem either, it is just griping.

I think we need a method that allows geocachers to fix things, I see the log entries where there are cachers willing to report that these items are actually missing, it just has no effect, their reports are a waste of time because the items sit in the cache pages and do so for years.

It may be OK if you limit your vision to a few geocaches around your house but collectively this is ruining things for travelers, the PQ function for trackables is useless because unless you check and read past logs you don't know anything, your PQ is wrong.

The amount of effort spent in coding the handling of trackables is really going to waste. It doesn't matter how they are handled in any system right now because the GIGO principle applies fully.

I can't think of any reason why this should not be addressed.

Edited January 22, 2009 by wavector

[+Harry Dolphin]

I like this idea of greying out TBs/geocoins that are not in the cache! I think a note should be sent to the cache owner and the TB/geocoin owner, but also to poor overworked Eartha! Not all reviewers are into marking TBs into Unknown.

Some cache owners are missing. Some cache owners do not care about the status of TBs in their caches! Some TB owners are missing. I could point out lots of bugs in muggled caches. Cache got archived, with bugs still listed as being there. It is sad to see them left in limbo.

[+wavector]

I like this idea of greying out TBs/geocoins that are not in the cache! I think a note should be sent to the cache owner and the TB/geocoin owner, but also to poor overworked Eartha! Not all reviewers are into marking TBs into Unknown.

Some cache owners are missing. Some cache owners do not care about the status of TBs in their caches! Some TB owners are missing. I could point out lots of bugs in muggled caches. Cache got archived, with bugs still listed as being there. It is sad to see them left in limbo.

 

No emails to Eartha!! Can you imagine how many emails Eartha would get everyday?

I think the idea of putting a trackable item into limbo would work better than the current system of leaving the trackable items on the list pages and in PQ's. If you go traveling/caching then that really underscores the weakness in the current system, it just doesn't work at all without reading cache pages.

Efforts aimed at getting new geocachers out caching are going to create issues for owners of trackable items if the Minnesota State Park Challenge is any guide. I think the administrator at the park dealing with that geocaching account is going to get a lot of emails.

If an option was there to indicate a trackable item was "Gone" then I am sure there would be people who would report items, they do this now but nothing happens.

I don't see any reason why this type of feature wouldn't work and it would really benefit everyone.

Edited January 23, 2009 by wavector

[+Markwell]

Y'all realize that if a is currently in the inventory of their cache, cache OWNERS can mark that bug missing. I think those are the two people that should be responsible for the bug movements being correct - bug owners and cache owners.

 

If a cache finder sees that a bug is missing, I'd suggest a simultaneous note to the owner of the bug and the cache, but let THEM take the action they deem necessary.

[+wavector]

Y'all realize that if a is currently in the inventory of their cache, cache OWNERS can mark that bug missing. I think those are the two people that should be responsible for the bug movements being correct - bug owners and cache owners.

 

If a cache finder sees that a bug is missing, I'd suggest a simultaneous note to the owner of the bug and the cache, but let THEM take the action they deem necessary.

 

That really isn't working.

I know that the cache owner and the trackable item owner can mark a bug as missing.

I know I can write emails, I know that this is how it is supposed to work but it isn't working.

 

Do you see that it isn't working? Did you follow the links I provided? It isn't working.

While on holidays in the US I sent sometimes as many as ten emails a night just getting bugs cleaned out of caches because they were not there. Several of the reviewers just would not do it, they responded by sending an email to the cache owner. My emails to the cache owner were ignored but the reviewer did manage to get some of them to fix the issue. One cache owner was very reluctant to remove the bugs, his cache had a dozen missing bugs and he just didn't want them removed, he felt they attracted visitors or something. The trackable item owners were people who for the most part had quit, not one of them responded to my emails by removing their bug from the cache, not one.

Did you follow the links I provided, 50 bugs missing in a half dozen caches, one cache with 16 missing bugs. Just clearing up that one cache would involve sending 17 emails and them waiting for while and then sending another email to a reviewer, and the reviewer may not even do anything but send another email to the cache owner.

 

The system isn't working, it doesn't happen as evidenced by the links I provided, did I mention that it isn't working .

 

If it was working I wouldn't have started a thread discussing a possible solution. I know the cache owners and trackable item owners owners should be responsible, I know they can mark a bug as missing, but they don't. Having a function that allowed any geocacher to indicate to others that the trackable item was "Gone" wouldn't be doing anything to the bugs movement. It could be left right on the cache page, just marked as "Gone" because it actually is "Gone".

 

This doesn't change the responsibilities of the cache owner or the trackable owner. To move the bug to the ? Unknown location would still be the responsibility of the cache owner or the trackable item owner.

What it would do is fix a problem that does exist, it is something that would benefit every cacher without detracting from the fun or changing responsibilities in any way.

 

If an item is "Gone" the system should be able to record that, I can show you cases where a trackable item has been "Gone" for years, it is still listed as being in the cache, it stills shows up on every PQ and every list of caches even though it is "Gone" and cachers mention it is "Gone" every few visits.

 

Instead of sending "simultaneous emails " to "cache owners and trackable item owners", a system that doesn't work now, why couldn't any geocacher just check a box to let others know the item was "Gone". It wouldn't move items nor change responsibilites, it wouldn't change anything, it would just fix something that is broken.

[+traildad]

I think you have a really good idea. In the past I have spent time trying to help clean up some missing Travel Bug messes. You have to send emails, then wait a while to see if anything is done, then check to see if the owners have even been on the site to get the email, then maybe wait some more and finally send an email to Eartha. I might even say that an automatic move to "unknown" after a reasonably long period of time would not hurt.

[+mickal555]

Yeah, I agree that something definitly needs to be done.

 

There's plenty of cache's here with TB's and GC's that are missing.

 

Some have been listed as being in the cache for years.

 

They are gone people...

[+wavector]

They are gone people...

 

"Gone" in this case means something entirely different, a geocacher could see the item was "gone" and mark it that way in the morning and that afternoon geocacher could log the item and it would be "ungone"

I am not sure what word might convey the state of the trackable item most precisely?

The phrase " I didn't take it but I can see it has been taken." is correct in that it doesn't say the item is gone and it says nothing about the cache it just reflects the state of affairs for the item itself.

This is where just graying it out would again reflect the state of affairs, taken and not yet been logged out. This isn't moving the item or marking it as missing, leave that to the cache owner or the trackable item owner. Graying it out would indicate that a geocacher has said the item has been taken and if that removed the trackable items from the lists and PQ's everyone would know it was not in there, everyone would benefit.

 

So it really has nothing to do with being gone for good.

If a geocacher is willing to write that a trackable item is missing in the log of the cache then why can't that be utilized to help out everyone.

[+wavector]

I just did some counting to give you an idea of the magnitude of this issue. I have seen several suggestions that this can be fixed by cachers sending emails, that isn't going to happen and it doesn't happen. Emails get sent but they don't get sent by cachers looking at all the bugs in limbo, they get sent by trackable item owner to cache owners wondering where their items have gone!!

In the state park challenge I linked I checked two pages of cache listings, there are 105 missing items. This is not going to be solved by a cacher sending emails but the Minnesota State Park is going to get some emails I am sure. The park has archived their listings and the trackable items are not in the caches (read the logs to see this) but some owners will still write and ask what happened to their items.

The state park did a good promotion and now they are faced with the task of declaring hundreds of dollars worth of trackable items as missing to ensure that their cache listing records are accurate.

 

Why can't the system be changed to allow geocachers who visit the caches to deal with the mess of missing travel bugs in the system? Geocachers are willing to record the fact that the items are gone but nothing is done because there is no way to act on the information being given.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

I actually agree with wavector here.

[+wavector]

I actually agree with wavector here.

 

 

I really do think such a feature is something that would really help everyone.

It would fix the problems that already exist. The whole trackable item system is pretty useless if you have to read every cache page to see if there are actually trackable items in the cache.

We already know that many cachers quit so it is certain that TB's are going to keep accumulating in the system because most people won't send an email if they come across a trackable item that is "gone".

The fact that there are people who take the time to point out items are missing makes me think that this function would clear up the problem of items being gone from the cache in no time.

 

All my words probably don't make as clear an impact as your agreement. Thanks.

Edited January 25, 2009 by wavector

[+Happy Bubbles]

If a cache page lists a bunch of absent bugs, could a "Needs Maintanence" log be used to prod the cache owner into marking the bugs missing? Keeping the listings on the cache page accurate can be seen as part of maintaining the cache.

[+wavector]

If a cache page lists a bunch of absent bugs, could a "Needs Maintanence" log be used to prod the cache owner into marking the bugs missing? Keeping the listings on the cache page accurate can be seen as part of maintaining the cache.

 

It is one way to try and address this widespread problem but it doesn't work. None of the suggestions that say "use the existing system" work. This can be checked fairly easily, just go look at the cache listings where you live and you can find items listed that are not present in the cache, you have to read to do it but it can be done. Some items have been missing for years yet they still show up in the cache. The current system doesn't work and because it doesn't work the entire PQ system is crippled when it comes to trackable items, it is a garbage in -> garbage out situation.

If you take a look at the links above you can see that the park service is going to have to mark hundreds of trackable items as missing, yes hundreds. I don't think that is fair, the park service gets saddled with a problem they didn't create simply because they decided to promote geocaching. The trackable item owners have not marked the items as missing and the caches have been archived so those items are probably just going to sit in limbo like all the other trackable items that are actually gone but still show up in searches and PQ's. You pay for PQ's but they are for all intents and purposes useless for trackable items.

The current system cannot do anything to address the growing number of trackable items that are listed as being in caches and are not there. The search function is useless for trackable items, the only way to tell if an item is actually in a cache is to read the logs, this problem exists everywhere.

The suggestion that geocachers need to write emails is just that, a suggestion and I have actually tried it. I got lukewarm responses from reviewers, in many cases they simply wrote the cache owner an email even though I had already done this prior to writing the reviewer. I also wrote bug owners and did not get one single response.

Trackable items appear in cache listings, they are not in the cache, this is something that isn't working in the current system. Getting geocachers to send emails to cache owners and travel bug owners to correct a listing error doesn't work. I don't think Eartha would appreciate a hundred emails from me towmorrow but that is only half of what I would need to do to correct one issue in one area, I'd have to send a hundred plus emails to other geocachers owning the trackables before Eartha would do anything.

Every geocacher is affected by this problem, it is everywhere.

This could be easily fixed without causing problems to cache owners, trackable item owners or asking any geocachers to do anything beyond what they already do.

It is very easy to find a log which says "no trackable item in this cache", geocachers are happy to try and help but there is no way to record that the trackable item is gone.

In the case of the links above these are not my caches and they are not my trackable items, I don't live there, but items listed as being present in a cache that are not there affect all geocachers very directly. If you are going on vacation forget about trackable items. You can drop them off but you won't be able to use PQ's to locate ones you can help, you won't be able to use cache listing pages to see where they are, those features are broken, you have to read logs.

[7rxc]

 

This can be checked fairly easily, just go look at the cache listings where you live and you can find items listed that are not present in the cache, you have to read to do it but it can be done. Some items have been missing for years yet they still show up in the cache.

 

The search function is useless for trackable items, the only way to tell if an item is actually in a cache is to read the logs, this problem exists everywhere.

 

 

Even reading the logs isn't a guarantee... just as many people don't log swaps, retrievals, drops or anything else in much detail... I've made a few 'connections' on lost and missing pieces where information was logged, and even in a few that were not, by carefull analysis of other information... time consuming sure...

 

I agree that few cache owners or bug owners reply to emails and or log notes that should go out, many do of course and they seem to appreciate the effort whatever the reason missing items, caches or even simple needs maintenance. I'm new to the sport myself, and actually enjoy some of the mysteries during the winter

as much as caching... Personally I like your idea of the greying out... My own thing would be to have some

sort of 'missing' gallery where one could list 'item not present' or 'missing' reports... this could be by CO, TBO or CO or whoever... including bits and pieces that got separated in transit. What would it look like?

The Description, Place Last Seen, Date etc... maybe the picture (all bugs and coins have pictures don't they.

In other words, access to the Unknown Location listing... We might know what to look for at events and

other places... might be able to recover some that way... The Travel Bug Forum has been discussing

the problem of Black Hole Events... and education of newcomers seems to be the most effective route for that... I guess that could be said of the STATE cache events... some ideas there at any rate.

Another complication of course is the large numbers of newbie cachers that don't have any connection to

GC.com in any way... I've run into many who manage to get all the coordinates they care to seek without

having to log in or register in any way... and never log online here at all... Do you know when the cache

coordinates on GC were ?? out to non registered viewers... I go back to August 08 and it was 'secure' then.

I have also found a site or two that have 'copies' of listings based on GSAK lists... mostly dated.

 

Anyway I try to follow guidelines and help out where I can, and will spread the word...

 

Doug

[+wavector]

Personally I like your idea of the greying out...

 

I like to think that having the item grayed out would be a balanced compromise between the rights of the TB/Cache owners and the right of the paying geocaching community to have a PQ system that actually works for trackables. I don't want every geocacher to have the right to modify the location of my Travel Bug so moving it out of the cache is probably not a good idea but by graying it out the PQ system would actually function again.

Making a change like this would mean that the code Groundspeak writes to handle trackable items would actually have some value, right now is just a waste of manhours doing any trackable coding because this problem is widepsread, it is getting worse as the number of new geocachers grow and attempts to promote geocaching to new people creates "trackable disasters" like the one facing the park service in the links I provided. This problem destroys the effectivenes of the current PQ system in regards to trackable items.

 

I hope someone at Groundspeak wants to fix this problem.

Along with geocaches, trackable items are one of the two basic gamepieces in geocaching, and making sure the system can handle trackable items would be a no brainer, right now it is broken and the problem is getting worse.

 

I sent a lot of emails on our Yellowstone vacation, every night it seemed I would write to the local geocachers, I would write to the TB owners and then write the local reviewer. Many reviewers refused to mark the items as missing and simply re-sent an email to the cache owner, I had already done that and received no response.

Cache owners who like to see the ghosts of TB's littering the caches they own think they will get more visitors if the icons are there, they don't care that people get exasperated with the fact that the information is "garbage out".

The expectation of some that this is a problem that needs to be solved by writing emails is willfull blindness, clearly it doesn't work yet some still suggest this idea like it is a workable.

You are right, cache owners respond once in awhile but on my vacation I didn't get a single response from a travel bug owner, why should they care?

 

You can find a thread about "missing items" in almost every forum. It would be easy to correct this problem and restore effectiveness to the current PQ system.

[+wavector]

There is a discussion going on in the Travel Bug forum regarding missing trackable items. Some of the observations are very pertinnet to this discussion so I am bumpoing it back up.

 

Here is a link to the discussion over there so people can come over here to make additional comments.

This feature would be a really simple way to fix the system.

 

Missing items and frustration

[+Checker111]

Personally I like your idea of the greying out...

 

I like to think that having the item grayed out would be a balanced compromise between the rights of the TB/Cache owners and the right of the paying geocaching community to have a PQ system that actually works for trackables. I don't want every geocacher to have the right to modify the location of my Travel Bug so moving it out of the cache is probably not a good idea but by graying it out the PQ system would actually function again.

 

Making a change like this would mean that the code Groundspeak writes to handle trackable items would actually have some value, right now is just a waste of manhours doing any trackable coding because this problem is widepsread, it is getting worse as the number of new geocachers grow and attempts to promote geocaching to new people creates "trackable disasters" like the one facing the park service in the links I provided. This problem destroys the effectivenes of the current PQ system in regards to trackable items.

 

I hope someone at Groundspeak wants to fix this problem.

 

Along with geocaches, trackable items are one of the two basic gamepieces in geocaching, and making sure the system can handle trackable items would be a no brainer, right now it is broken and the problem is getting worse.

 

I agree with you Wavector about the problem with missing TB/GCs. And since the 'active searching cachers' are the ones using this information, it would be appropriate that they are the ones that would keep it accurate. Having a way to 'grey out' the missing items would be GREAT!!! Then when Pocket Queries are run, these missing items would be excluded from the 'cache has a TB' list, and the PQs would be more accurate and maybe function as designed.

 

I am considering using the 'Needs Maintenance' function to report to both the CacheOwner and the local cache moderator, that the list of TB/GCs is incorrect and 'needs maintenance'.

Does anyone know if a cache has the 'Needs Maintenance' function turned on, does it show up on the Google map? Also will it be automatically excluded from a PQ?

Is this the appropriate thing to do now, just to get them off of the PQ lists?

 

I know that tha appropriate thing to do here is for Groundspeak to expand the function of TBs to include a 'Item Not in Cache', so it can be greyed out for the next cachers.

 

.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Checker111

[+amtg]

I have seen geocachers mention in their log that TB's or geocoins were missing from a cache, in some cases many geocachers mention the missing items. Many trackable item icons show up on lists of caches yet they are not really in the geocaches. In some cases they may have been taken and not yet logged but in the majority of cases they are actually gone with no explanation online or onsite.

Cache owners and trackable item owners can move the item to ? Unknown but I think it would be very good to have a feature that allowed any geocacher to make something like a "Missing Item Report" that would tell everyone the trackable item was not in a geocache.

If the ability to file a "Missing Item Report" was offered it would encourage people to mention trackable items when logging caches.

When a trackable item received a "Missing Item Report" it could simply be "grayed out" of the cache.

Leave it on the cache page (perhaps a dimmed version of the regular icon) but remove it from Inventory and out of the cache listing pages, PQ's and other searches.

If such a "Missing Item Report" generated a log to the trackable item owner and the geocache owner informing them that a "Missing Item Report" had been made they would be encouraged to think about moving the missing item(s) to ? Unknown .

The real benefit would be removing the icons and items from list pages, searches and PQ's so geocachers didn't show up and find that the trackable items listed were not actually in the cache. I know it is possible to tell the items are missing by reading the logs but the searches are hampered if you have to read every cache page to see if someone has mentioned whether or not the trackable items are actually in the cache.

Offering such a function would simply be recognizing the fact that many of these trackable items are already in "limbo" and just appear unneccessarily in searches, listing pages and PQ's.

If an easy to use method let geocachers file a "Missing Item Report" it would benefit everyone.

There are a lot of owners who aren't active (both TB and cache owners) and a lot of items are getting stranded, this has a negative impact on everyone.

[+PilotMike]

I like the "Gone" idea. I also have sent a lot of emails to a lot of cache owners and bug/coin owners explaining where the "Mark item missing" button is and how to use it.

 

I used to use PQ's limited to caches with trackables but found it very frustrating to have to read all of the logs to see if there was a chance that the listed trackables were actually where they said they were. So many cachers post a note on the trackables' page(s) or on the cache listing, that a "Gone" function would obviously be used and helpful to those of us who like moving and discovering TB's and coins.