Johnson County, Texas

June 10, 2009

I just wanted to bring this to the attention of the reviewer for Texas, and any geocachers located in Johnson County, TX. In particular, geocachers near Cleburne, TX.

http://www.cleburnetimesreview.com/johnson...eyword=topstory

It's quite possible the police still have custody of the confiscated geocaches, and the subsequent coins and bugs. I'm sort of affected, indirectly, by one of the TB's shown in the accompanying image. The travel bug is a contestant in my Great TB Race. It is TB2AFHK. It is currently located in GC1A8WC, which recently reported a DNF. I can only guess that that particular geocache is one of the ones currently in police custody.

I have put a Needs Maintenance on that geocache, but it sounds like there are others in that area that might be being collected by the police. I felt I'd bring this to the attention of the people listed in the opening line paragraph so that they may begin the process of working with the local police and retrieving any items confiscated.

June 10, 2009

im Dissipointed that They received no response from Groundspeak. Or maybe they didnt email the right place?

2k · June 10, 2009

Looking at that article I'd say someone in the area has a chance to do some seriously positive PR. These people are in need of help maintaining the cemeteries and a cito event could clean up and fix up a cemetery in a day. When life hands you lemons and all that.

June 10, 2009

I also don't really believe that caches belong in cemeteries and it is well within the rights of those associations maintaining the cemeteries to remove them and forbid future placements.

Sounds like they don't exactly get the whole picture about geocaching and once again we get a black eye because of questionable placements.

I agree with the OP about bringing it up but think this should be moved to the South and Southeast forum.

Perhaps it is time for local cachers to have a CITO event or two to help out these folks maintaining the cemeteries and perhaps in the process you could explain the game to them in a bit more detail and work towards a point where they may even allow caches in their cemeteries again.

- Rev Mike

19k · June 10, 2009

Looking at that article I'd say someone in the area has a chance to do some seriously positive PR. These people are in need of help maintaining the cemeteries and a cito event could clean up and fix up a cemetery in a day. When life hands you lemons and all that.

I totally agree. What's more I have had issues for a long time with Groundspeak's official definition of geocaching as a "game" and comparing it to "a scavenger hunt". Call it an "activity" and compare it to orienteering and it gains a much more respectful and sober tone.

"If they have time to look for that stuff, maybe they should consider volunteering to help us out instead, or any other group. We’re all always needing volunteers.”

CITO is a part of caching that I think has been getting sadly neglected recently, both as a reality of geocaching and in the geocaching press. But regardless... her statement of "If they have that time to look" really bothers me. I haven't got time for leisure activities? Come ON!!

But Ms Lanfear's own upbringing and emotions play a large part in her opinion, and that bothers me as well. She isn't being objective in the least!

There are so many things wrong with that article that I have to stop here or I'd be going on all night! I sure hope the local Geocaching group can set her/them straight on these issues.

19k · June 10, 2009

I also don't really believe that caches belong in cemeteries and it is well within the rights of those associations maintaining the cemeteries to remove them and forbid future placements.

Sounds like they don't exactly get the whole picture about geocaching and once again we get a black eye because of questionable placements.

I agree with the OP about bringing it up but think this should be moved to the South and Southeast forum.

Perhaps it is time for local cachers to have a CITO event or two to help out these folks maintaining the cemeteries and perhaps in the process you could explain the game to them in a bit more detail and work towards a point where they may even allow caches in their cemeteries again.

- Rev Mike

Moving these threads to regional forums generally is the death of the thread (and you don't like geocaches in cemeteries LOL!) This is a global issue, not a regional one.

I have no problem with caches being in cemeteries, as long as there is a good reason for it. As with any cache, I don't think they should be placed simply because you can. But a good cemetery cache is a wonderful experience... a lesson in history, a reminder of mortality, and a serene and meditative experience for most.

6.7k · June 10, 2009

As mentioned, great PR opportunity, work with them. Put together a CITO.

Ask them if a cache placed outside the cemetery which talks about the interesting site inside the cemetery would be acceptable.

The cache could be outside the fence or gate (or even down the road a ways) and mention the interesting site inside the cemetery as a waypoint... not required to claim the find, just interesting if the finder wants to go there. Unless they just don't want visitors this should make them happy.

June 10, 2009

Here in IN we have the Indiana Spirit Quest. It is a respectfully manor of placing caches in cemeteries. We don't place them near graves and it is required for you to go around and pick up trash, right flags and other things like that; night caching is prohibited. A lot of our cachers here have been evolved with cemetery restoration, I am attending my first one this weekend, a two day event we are working with a cemetery association I believe.

It is too bad a few badly placed caches in cemeteries have ruined that cemetery experience, if we work with the cemeteries I think that we wouldn't have these problems any more.

1.5k · June 10, 2009

I'll post this to the TXGA forum and work on finding some local cachers who can take the lead on the PR work.

19k · June 10, 2009

I'll post this to the TXGA forum and work on finding some local cachers who can take the lead on the PR work.

That would be GREAT, KoosKoos! If I've ever seen a geocaching education situation, this is it!

June 10, 2009

When I contacted the author of the article, I made a point to state that it was unfortunate that the geocaching side of the story was not represented. I also mentioned that based on the article and what I could find online at the one cache I knew was involved, I could find no evidence that the police made any effort to contact the owners of the caches themselves. This was one of the reasons I posted on here as for all intensive purposes, the caches and any trackables inside might be lost without the owners ever knowing about it.

I did point out my own experiences with geocaches, and explained that almost every cemetery cache I've gone after were placed to highlight some historical aspect of the cemetery, be it Rev. War or Civil War veterans, early pioneers of Westward Expansion, etc., along with how many are not actually disturbing graves at all. Something else I tried to express is that it is a rare thing for a geocacher to go after a cemetery cache and cause a disruption, and that many will actually help clean up the area.

I tried my best to express that geocachers would be more than open to helping out and working with them, but that no evidence of an effort to contact anyone other than the governing body was made. The article seems to indicate that this has been going on for a while. I'm not sure how long, but if it's been going on for a while now, I'm surprised they haven't made more effort to get a hold of whoever is placing them.

I agree with knowschad. While this may be a local issue, it is a discussion that has global reprecussion. I have no problem with cemetery caches provided they are not a disruption to the site. This article is a great example of how this is one of those touchy types of sites where a little extra effort to find out who maintains the cemetery knows and is okay with it being there.

Thanks kooskoos for helping to get this into the TX forums as well.

1.1k · June 10, 2009

It seems like the COs did not receive permission to place these caches. The cemetery official feel like the only resource they have left is to have the city pass a law outlawing caching.. this is why permission is so important.

June 10, 2009

I have made initial contact with Doris Lanfer the President of the Johnson County Cemetery Association.

I explained that we wanted to help come to a happy medium by addressing their concerns and also allow caching to continue in a respectful manor.

During the conversation, it was apparent that she was an older lady and for the most part just thinks “people should not be playing games in these sacred grounds” Her example was of a woman with a couple of kids looking for a cache and the kids were running around like a pack of wild dogs while the lady was looking for the cache.

That will be the hardest part to sell or guarantee. No matter what plan we come up with, there is ultimately no way we can control the actions of every cacher.

I informed her that we (TXGA) could not control which caches get approved, but that we could ask our community to at least hold off on placing cemetery caches until we come to an agreement.

I also informed her that even if I got Prime to agree not to approve any caches hidden inside of cemeteries, that a cache could still be published, if there was no mention of the cache being in a cemetery in the cache page.

She has my contact information and plans on informing me when they plan to meet again, so I or someone could be present to give our side of the story.

I explained how we could have CITO events to help with the maintenance of the cemeteries, and noticed an audible pause as she thought about that for a min.

We need to show up with a presentation of the positive things that caching can bring to the table for the communities we play our game in.

9.2k · June 10, 2009

It seems like the COs did not receive permission to place these caches. The cemetery official feel like the only resource they have left is to have the city pass a law outlawing caching.. this is why permission is so important.

Texas has an Open Cemetery law. That basically means there it no such thing as a private cemetery in the state. If you're a land owner, and there's a cemetery on your land, you are required to allow anyone who wants to visit the cemetery to do so. The land owner is allowed to make reasonable restrictions, such as imposing specific visiting days and times. But they're not allowed to make a complete ban.

19k · June 10, 2009

Texas has an Open Cemetery law. That basically means there it no such thing as a private cemetery in the state. If you're a land owner, and there's a cemetery on your land, you are required to allow anyone who wants to visit the cemetery to do so. The land owner is allowed to make reasonable restrictions, such as imposing specific visiting days and times. But they're not allowed to make a complete ban.

Very interesting, Prime! So, how do you think that fits in with Ms Doris Lanfer's stance? Do you think that would fit into the "reasonable restrictions" clause?

June 10, 2009

Funny thing that was pointed out by one of our cachers from Central Tx is a document released by the Texas Historical Commission.

Perserving Historical Cemeteries

The caption below the picture on page 12 states

"One of the best ways to protect cemeteries is to educate our school children. They are our future preservationists. Lessons can be developed using scavenger hunts to teach history, art, math, geology and sociology."

and on page 17

"The community as a whole can take an active part in the preservation, maintenance and protection of local cemeteries. Civic organizations, church groups, scout troops and historical societies all are potential assistants in efforts to care for cemeteries."

I think we need to contact the Texas Historical Commission and have them update that to include geocaching organizations as a potential assistant.

June 10, 2009

Funny thing that was pointed out by one of our cachers from Central Tx is a document released by the Texas Historical Commission.

Perserving Historical Cemeteries

The caption below the picture on page 12 states

"One of the best ways to protect cemeteries is to educate our school children. They are our future preservationists. Lessons can be developed using scavenger hunts to teach history, art, math, geology and sociology."

and on page 17

"The community as a whole can take an active part in the preservation, maintenance and protection of local cemeteries. Civic organizations, church groups, scout troops and historical societies all are potential assistants in efforts to care for cemeteries."

I think we need to contact the Texas Historical Commission and have them update that to include geocaching organizations as a potential assistant.

WTG Roland. I'd hate to think that having to contact the Texas Historical Commission to ask for there assistance would be needed...definitely a way to make the problem worse by "going above their heads". But that information might be exactly the information needed to help demonstrate that there is actually an already established precedent for scavenger hunts involving cemeteries.

Here's a thought. Try talking to them to find out if there are any cemeteries that have historical significance, be it somebody buried there or the history of the site. Then, talk to them to see if they would allow a geocache to be placed NEAR the cemetery (but not inside), then build a puzzle or multi cache that would require a geocacher to collect information from the cemetery to be able to determine the final coordinates. Here is an example I recently did (the geocache was hidden inside the cemetery, but in a spot where it did not interfere with a grave): GC164QT. This particular geocache was placed in this cemetery due to the cemetery being used to house several early pioneers that settled in this particular area.

This not only would be a way to safely do geocaching in their eyes (by not hiding it in the cemetery), but also to go along with the education aspect Roland posted about within the document by the Texas Historical Commission. They would be the ones most likely to know about any historically significant grave sites.

I also think that CITO might be a great way to help jump start some peaceful work with the local group.

When talking to this lady, any word on retrieving the items already confiscated?

9.2k · June 11, 2009

Texas has an Open Cemetery law. That basically means there it no such thing as a private cemetery in the state. If you're a land owner, and there's a cemetery on your land, you are required to allow anyone who wants to visit the cemetery to do so. The land owner is allowed to make reasonable restrictions, such as imposing specific visiting days and times. But they're not allowed to make a complete ban.

Very interesting, Prime! So, how do you think that fits in with Ms Doris Lanfer's stance? Do you think that would fit into the "reasonable restrictions" clause?

The law says you can't restrict access to cemeteries for activities associated with cemeteries. As there are probably caches in at least 50% of Texas cemeteries, Geocaching now falls under that category, along with photography, historical research, ancestral research, and even picnics with the dearly departed (it's a southern thing).

Edit: That 50% figure is probably a bit high. Truth is, no one know for sure how many cemeteries there are in Texas, since so many of them are unrecorded. Estimates are anywhere between 35,000 and 50,000 cemeteries in the state. I'd say the 50% figure probably still hold true for active cemeteries (where interments still take place).

Edited June 11, 2009 by Prime Suspect

19k · June 11, 2009

Texas has an Open Cemetery law. That basically means there it no such thing as a private cemetery in the state. If you're a land owner, and there's a cemetery on your land, you are required to allow anyone who wants to visit the cemetery to do so. The land owner is allowed to make reasonable restrictions, such as imposing specific visiting days and times. But they're not allowed to make a complete ban.

Very interesting, Prime! So, how do you think that fits in with Ms Doris Lanfer's stance? Do you think that would fit into the "reasonable restrictions" clause?

The law says you can't restrict access to cemeteries for activities associated with cemeteries. As there are probably caches in at least 50% of Texas cemeteries, Geocaching now falls under that category, along with photography, historical research, ancestral research, and even picnics with the dearly departed (it's a southern thing).

So, Ms Lanfer and Sherrif Sloan are treading on some pretty thin ice, I take it?

June 11, 2009

So, Ms Lanfer and Sherrif Sloan are treading on some pretty thin ice, I take it?

Probably not only treading on thin (and a bit legally misguided) ice, but bordering on theft of private property by (again thin ice) illegally confiscated the caches and any trackable items inside, which could be looked at as property of the cache owner and TB/coin owners (I've heard that arguement before). Though, that's a thin sheet of ice that probably should avoided in talks with them. :grin:

4.2k · June 11, 2009

I also don't really believe that caches belong in cemeteries and it is well within the rights of those associations maintaining the cemeteries to remove them and forbid future placements.

Do the associations that maintain the cemeteries actually own them in Texas? Shouldn't it be up to the actual land owners...?

8.4k · June 11, 2009

http://www.cleburnetimesreview.com/johnson...eyword=topstory

The container in the center looks like an ODS cache....(Painted Folgers container)

19k · June 11, 2009

The news article has certainly received a lot of good comments. The only negative one is the one from Grieving Mother, who thinks that its "terrible", but then goes on to say that things have been stolen from her daughter's grave. She apparently thinks that they could have been stolen by geocachers and does not realize that the presence of geocachers in the cemetery would actually be a deterrent to vandals.

1.1k · June 11, 2009

It seems like the COs did not receive permission to place these caches. The cemetery official feel like the only resource they have left is to have the city pass a law outlawing caching.. this is why permission is so important.

Texas has an Open Cemetery law. That basically means there it no such thing as a private cemetery in the state. If you're a land owner, and there's a cemetery on your land, you are required to allow anyone who wants to visit the cemetery to do so. The land owner is allowed to make reasonable restrictions, such as imposing specific visiting days and times. But they're not allowed to make a complete ban.

They are also fully within their rights to pick up geocaches and throw them in the garbage. When you reach out landowners or land-stewards and bring them into the process then you avoid this kind of problem.

What a tragedy would it be if they ended up getting the city to pass an ordinance?

Edited June 11, 2009 by Arrow42

June 11, 2009

I should pay attention to what is going on in my own back yard. I'm checking in now even though I am out of state for the summer. I have placed caches in Johnson County Cemeteries. Many are still active.

Always with respect and as far as I know, none of them have been confiscated. I have a way of concealing them that makes it hard to stumble across them. Usually with concise clues so not too much searching is necessary.

I have one in a cemetery where the first woman land-owner of Johnson County is buried. I personally think it is socially commendable of me to bring people to these areas and let them get educated obout our history.

I'm so glad the Historical Society agrees. I'm also thankful our reviewer is knowledgeable about the laws.

4.2k · June 11, 2009

They are also fully within their rights to pick up geocaches and throw them in the garbage. When you reach out landowners or land-stewards and bring them into the process then you avoid this kind of problem.

Unless you hide under a different account I'm going to assume that you're not speaking from experience.

19k · June 11, 2009

It seems like the COs did not receive permission to place these caches. The cemetery official feel like the only resource they have left is to have the city pass a law outlawing caching.. this is why permission is so important.

Texas has an Open Cemetery law. That basically means there it no such thing as a private cemetery in the state. If you're a land owner, and there's a cemetery on your land, you are required to allow anyone who wants to visit the cemetery to do so. The land owner is allowed to make reasonable restrictions, such as imposing specific visiting days and times. But they're not allowed to make a complete ban.

They are also fully within their rights to pick up geocaches and throw them in the garbage. When you reach out landowners or land-stewards and bring them into the process then you avoid this kind of problem.

What a tragedy would it be if they ended up getting the city to pass an ordinance?

If they were the landowners, I could agree with you. But these were not landowners. These were apparently (based on Prime Suspect's post) completely legal. Just because a sherrif doesn't like something, doesn't make it against the law or give him a right to confiscate it.

It isn't clear to me if Doris Lanfear and the Johnson County Cemetery Association have the authority to give or refuse permission, but I'm thinking that they do not.

June 11, 2009

The conversation I had with Doris yesterday indicated that she had moved back to Texas after having lived elsewhere for a long time. Upon her return her and her husband got into cemetery preservation and have successfully located 30 to 40 "missing" cemeteries. My guess is that other than their passion for this endeavor, they have no legal claim to these sites.

6.7k · June 11, 2009

...

It isn't clear to me if Doris Lanfear and the Johnson County Cemetery Association have the authority to give or refuse permission, but I'm thinking that they do not.

Even if they don't have the authority to grant or deny permission Their passion and our pastime are occupying the same locations. Easier to get along than fight it out. Besides, they can quietly make caches disappear. Unless David Copperfield is a geocacher I don't see us making the cemeteries disappear. The only way for geocaching to win in this case is to foster good will and learn to coexist.

1.1k · June 11, 2009

If they were the landowners, I could agree with you. But these were not landowners. These were apparently (based on Prime Suspect's post) completely legal. Just because a sherrif doesn't like something, doesn't make it against the law or give him a right to confiscate it.

It isn't clear to me if Doris Lanfear and the Johnson County Cemetery Association have the authority to give or refuse permission, but I'm thinking that they do not.

Prime's post says they are required to be open - not that every cemetery is public-owned. In fact, I suspect that they own the land, charge fees and pay to have it maintained. I could be wrong on that however - that organization might only represent public-owned cemeteries.

Do you really think we can win this way? Yes, we are likely legally in the right. However, if this is approached as a fight then cachers will lose. You must have seen the law that was passed in North Dakota. That was something that could have been prevented with the right kind of outreach. The local cachers in that area have the opportunity to prevent that here by working with the organization. Maybe they can work together and form some kind of guidelines, practices & restrictions that will keep both sides happy.

19k · June 11, 2009

...

It isn't clear to me if Doris Lanfear and the Johnson County Cemetery Association have the authority to give or refuse permission, but I'm thinking that they do not.

Even if they don't have the authority to grant or deny permission Their passion and our pastime are occupying the same locations. Easier to get along than fight it out. Besides, they can quietly make caches disappear. Unless David Copperfield is a geocacher I don't see us making the cemeteries disappear. The only way for geocaching to win in this case is to foster good will and learn to coexist.

I'm 100% in agreement with you there.

My response was to the statement that "They are also fully within their rights to pick up geocaches and throw them in the garbage." They can do that, but they are not within their rights to do it.

1.1k · June 11, 2009

...

It isn't clear to me if Doris Lanfear and the Johnson County Cemetery Association have the authority to give or refuse permission, but I'm thinking that they do not.

Even if they don't have the authority to grant or deny permission Their passion and our pastime are occupying the same locations. Easier to get along than fight it out. Besides, they can quietly make caches disappear. Unless David Copperfield is a geocacher I don't see us making the cemeteries disappear. The only way for geocaching to win in this case is to foster good will and learn to coexist.

I'm 100% in agreement with you there.

My response was to the statement that "They are also fully within their rights to pick up geocaches and throw them in the garbage." They can do that, but they are not within their rights to do it.

If it's there land then they are. Why do we believe it's not their land? What am I missing?

19k · June 11, 2009

...

It isn't clear to me if Doris Lanfear and the Johnson County Cemetery Association have the authority to give or refuse permission, but I'm thinking that they do not.

Even if they don't have the authority to grant or deny permission Their passion and our pastime are occupying the same locations. Easier to get along than fight it out. Besides, they can quietly make caches disappear. Unless David Copperfield is a geocacher I don't see us making the cemeteries disappear. The only way for geocaching to win in this case is to foster good will and learn to coexist.

I'm 100% in agreement with you there.

My response was to the statement that "They are also fully within their rights to pick up geocaches and throw them in the garbage." They can do that, but they are not within their rights to do it.

If it's there land then they are. Why do we believe it's not their land? What am I missing?

I think that if it had been on private land, that the article would have mentioned and probably interviewed the owner. That's what I'm basing my assumption on.

The North Dakota issue is totally different. A good many states have policies like that one for their wildlife management lands.

4.2k · June 11, 2009

If it's there land then they are. Why do we believe it's not their land? What am I missing?

Well there was this, from somebody that actually talked to them:

The conversation I had with Doris yesterday indicated that she had moved back to Texas after having lived elsewhere for a long time. Upon her return her and her husband got into cemetery preservation and have successfully located 30 to 40 "missing" cemeteries. My guess is that other than their passion for this endeavor, they have no legal claim to these sites.

So this is no different than a Letterboxer Vs. Geocacher situation. I'm curious of they had the permission of the land owners before they found the "missing" cemeteries, but it doesn't really matter.

We're basically dealing with retirement age cache maggots. Should the local cachers extend a friendly hand and try to make nice with them? Sure! Do I have to like them? Not so much.

June 11, 2009

No need to call this lady a cache maggot. It's strictly a generational thing. She has no problems with caching, she said it sounds like fun. She just does not think that a cemetery is the place to be playing games.

We are going to work things out with the JCCA.

4.2k · June 11, 2009

No need to call this lady a cache maggot. It's strictly a generational thing. She has no problems with caching, she said it sounds like fun. She just does not think that a cemetery is the place to be playing games.

We are going to work things out with the JCCA.

I only meant that in the sense that she's actively seeking out caches and removing them. Justification and age aside, she's doing what bored teenagers have been doing for some time.

I sincerely hope that you are able to come to a middle ground and work things out with the organization in way that satisfies both parties. I'd remind you that there's nothing to keep her from resuming her active cache removing service should she wake up one day and decide that she's changed her mind. Hopefully that won't happen.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Castle Mischief

19k · June 11, 2009

Actually, according to the article (if that part is accurate) it is Johnson County Sheriff’s Office deputy Jim Sloan and his crew that are the "cache maggots" (eg: have been confiscating the caches).

Sloan and his workers have uncovered several such containers tucked away in various Johnson County cemeteries...

Sloan confiscated geocaches he and his workers have found in cemeteries

Doris Lanfear, JCCA president, was simply stating an opinion.

9.2k · June 11, 2009

A Brief Overview Of Cemetery Law In Texas

4.2k · June 11, 2009

Actually, according to the article (if that part is accurate) it is Johnson County Sheriff’s Office deputy Jim Sloan and his crew that are the "cache maggots" (eg: have been confiscating the caches).

Sloan and his workers have uncovered several such containers tucked away in various Johnson County cemeteries...

Sloan confiscated geocaches he and his workers have found in cemeteries

Doris Lanfear, JCCA president, was simply stating an opinion.

Sounds more to me like they are both working in concert to remove the caches.

Sloan supervises trustys who, among other duties, work to maintain 35 cemeteries throughout the county, a program initiated by the Johnson County Cemetery Association.

...Doris Lanfear, JCCA president.

Sloan supervises trustees in a program initiated by an association that Lanfear is the president of.

June 11, 2009

A Brief Overview Of Cemetery Law In Texas

I want to read:

Chapter 715 deals with historic cemeteries and discusses the role of non-profit corporations to restore, operate, and maintain historic cemeteries.

3.5k · June 11, 2009

I think it should be stated that Roland_oso is the President of the Texas Geocaching Association and Koos Koos is VP and they are taking care of the situation. Please do not contact this lady personally, beyond posting comments to the online article. Thanks

----

BOT - I have quite a few caches hidden in cemeteries and have not had any trouble with caretakers or associations. I try to hide the caches near the perimiter of the grounds, away from graves if possible. A personal rule of mine is to pass on hiding caches in cemeteries where there are recent graves. I try to stick to historic grounds.

Edited June 11, 2009 by 9Key

19k · June 12, 2009

I think it should be stated that Roland_oso is the President of the Texas Geocaching Association and Koos Koos is VP and they are taking care of the situation. Please do not contact this lady personally, beyond posting comments to the online article. Thanks

----

BOT - I have quite a few caches hidden in cemeteries and have not had any trouble with caretakers or associations. I try to hide the caches near the perimiter of the grounds, away from graves if possible. A personal rule of mine is to pass on hiding caches in cemeteries where there are recent graves. I try to stick to historic grounds.

Would it be OK if I should send Doris a dozen roses? Yellow texan roses, of course!

Just kidding... point taken.

1.8k · June 12, 2009

........... It's strictly a generational thing. She has no problems with caching, she said it sounds like fun. She just does not think that a cemetery is the place to be playing games.

We are going to work things out with the JCCA.

May not be generational enough, or perhaps it wasn't the case in the region where she grew up. But, up until about the middle of the twentieth century, it was common to take a day and picnic at the family cemetery with all the kinfolks. This was the perfect opportunity for mom and dad to pass onto the family a bit of ancestral history, and even a few baudy stories about the spinster aunt maybe, as well as perform a bit of maintenance and teach the younger set some historical family appreciation. This custom faded primarily due to the spreading out of family groups, the reason why it no longer exists in my family.

4.2k · June 12, 2009

........... It's strictly a generational thing. She has no problems with caching, she said it sounds like fun. She just does not think that a cemetery is the place to be playing games.

We are going to work things out with the JCCA.

May not be generational enough, or perhaps it wasn't the case in the region where she grew up. But, up until about the middle of the twentieth century, it was common to take a day and picnic at the family cemetery with all the kinfolks. This was the perfect opportunity for mom and dad to pass onto the family a bit of ancestral history, and even a few baudy stories about the spinster aunt maybe, as well as perform a bit of maintenance and teach the younger set some historical family appreciation. This custom faded primarily due to the spreading out of family groups, the reason why it no longer exists in my family.

Depending on the region, there are people that still do planned cemetery picnics*. My wife used to go after Sunday service with her church back in the 70's/early 80's.

Right here in Huntsville, there are events open to the public that are held in cemeteries with actors in period costumes portraying the famous departed.**

* http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...cemetery+picnic

** http://huntsville.about.com/library/weekly/aa050801a.htm

38.2k · June 12, 2009

........... It's strictly a generational thing. She has no problems with caching, she said it sounds like fun. She just does not think that a cemetery is the place to be playing games.

We are going to work things out with the JCCA.

May not be generational enough, or perhaps it wasn't the case in the region where she grew up. But, up until about the middle of the twentieth century, it was common to take a day and picnic at the family cemetery with all the kinfolks. This was the perfect opportunity for mom and dad to pass onto the family a bit of ancestral history, and even a few baudy stories about the spinster aunt maybe, as well as perform a bit of maintenance and teach the younger set some historical family appreciation. This custom faded primarily due to the spreading out of family groups, the reason why it no longer exists in my family.

Depending on the region, there are people that still do planned cemetery picnics*. My wife used to go after Sunday service with her church back in the 70's/early 80's.

Right here in Huntsville, there are events open to the public that are held in cemeteries with actors in period costumes portraying the famous departed.**

* http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...cemetery+picnic

** http://huntsville.about.com/library/weekly/aa050801a.htm

Not long ago, on Mothers Day my wife and I happened to go after a cemetery cache. We encountered a tailgate party, with soft music, beach chairs, a blanket a spread with food and drink (including beer & wine), adults pllaying frisbee among the tombstones and kids fishing in a nearby stream. There were probably 20 adults and children there all told. It was near the cache so we came back later in the day. The group was gone, but we noticed the grave next to where they were parked was that of a woman who passed away several years earlier. My guess is that it was the family spending Mothers Day with their recently deceased mom. I thought of it as a nice way to spend the day and didn't see anything wrong with it.

There is a reason many cemeteries have picnic tables and it isn't for the residents.

1.1k · June 12, 2009

If it's there land then they are. Why do we believe it's not their land? What am I missing?

Well there was this, from somebody that actually talked to them:

The conversation I had with Doris yesterday indicated that she had moved back to Texas after having lived elsewhere for a long time. Upon her return her and her husband got into cemetery preservation and have successfully located 30 to 40 "missing" cemeteries. My guess is that other than their passion for this endeavor, they have no legal claim to these sites.

So this is no different than a Letterboxer Vs. Geocacher situation. I'm curious of they had the permission of the land owners before they found the "missing" cemeteries, but it doesn't really matter.

We're basically dealing with retirement age cache maggots. Should the local cachers extend a friendly hand and try to make nice with them? Sure! Do I have to like them? Not so much.

Ah, I see.

June 13, 2009

"Trustys???" lol... me thinks that should be "trustees." (and no editor caught that in the article? hmmm...)

My take:

If people or groups don't want caches in cemeteries, aren't there enough other places to put them?

I love historic caches greatly - and there is a wonderful Civil War period multi-cache in a Savannah, GA that I'd highly recommend to anyone, with its narrative and tour of war sites. It is done right. Although I can't say that the placer had permission to do it (it's a virtual... ahh, I miss virtuals, too!). I think anyone placing a geocache should have right on a standard, mandatory form WHO approved a cache and that should be posted online. Virtually all land is owned by somebody. It would save a lot of headaches down the road.

Do cachers in Johnson County Texas have permission to place caches in these cemeteries? It would seem not.

I can't help but feel the cemeteries are within their legal right here. For example, many cemeteries have rules about removing flowers or items placed by a stone within two weeks of Memorial Day. A cache is something that also was placed in the cemetery. There's a similar rule for national wildlife refuges, at least where I live by the Upper Mississippi. You can't leave property on the refuge for over two weeks. It's meant to keep tenters from permanently living there. However, it also translates to not placing geocaches on the refuge.

Another point: Bottom line, you can't guarantee other cachers' behavior. I do not place a cache at a historic barn in my area because, no, I can't guarantee people won't be skulking around their place at 1 a.m. I know a lot of cachers who love night caching. I also have seen a ton of cachers who don't read clues or hints or cache information. Example: I have a multi-cache on a river (an excellent series with rave reviews) that I said could ONLY be found by paddling the river. BUT one person logged, geez, you have to go across private property to get to one of the caches. NO you don't - and if he had read and/or obeyed the cache info, he wouldn't have been there. He walked right past people farming to do it, too. So then I come out the idiot, like I didn't know what I was doing by placing it where a person had to trespass. Nope, I was just trusting the cachers will do what I or you think they will do. You can say what you like about cachers in general, but it's that crazy family or group out there at night, hooting and hollering and poking around stones and letting their dog dig a hole that will leave the lasting impression.

Also, many cachers do tear things up looking for caches. There's a nano in my area behind a veterans memorial plaque that sticks away from the monument. I could see that people have moved parts on light fixtures, etc. It will probably be headed toward the fate of a town monument in another area town. It was not in the best shape to start with. Now bricks are falling off it and it's been badly picked over and damaged. The cache has just been archived cuz the cache went missing. Best thing that could have happened to save the monument.

All are points to think about. Geocaching is not the total panacea many here make it out to be in reality. Talk to the cemetery people. Maybe you can work it out. Maybe not. And if not, please show some respect for both the decision and cemeteries. Thanks!

Edited June 13, 2009 by lizs

June 14, 2009

Lizs:

You make some good points here. However, I think the main concern here is more to smooth over some of the misconception and feelings that the local authorities have developed about geocaching because of this. If they see this as a problem (which they do), they are less likely to be open to other geocaches in the community. Whether they allow more geocaches to be placed back into cemeteries is up to them. As long as things are worked out, items retrieved from the police (like the trackables that were in the confiscated caches), and some plans are figured out, then everything goes well. From the sound of things, there's a possibility that a CITO event might come out of this.

When it comes to working things out, you need to realize that at least one comment on the article was a very negative comment from a lady accusing cachers of stealing things from her daughter's grave and calling for an outright ban on ALL geocaching. It is exactly that frame of mind that we are hoping we can prevent from developing, and hopefully even reverse, through these efforts.

If we walk away with the locals open to some organized and approved geocaches in cemeteries, than that's just a plus.

Oh, and while yes, technically all land is owned by some person or governing body, laws are in place that dictate that a very good majority of cemeteries in Texas (save a few special classes of cemeteries) are legally required to be open to the general public. Now this may not be explicitly say geocaches are allowed, people are definitely allowed to enter and leave as they desire. Another aspect of all of this conversation, and the research into some of the state laws, is whether or not geocachers are legally entitled to place a geocache on public property, even if it is in a cemetery. Some things point to yes, some point to maybe, a few point to no. Yes, permission could have been asked, but are we sure that the local cachers even knew that the cemeteries had someone overseeing them? Maybe not. I have a cache that I spent several days trying to find out who ran the park before I placed it, only to run into several dead ends. Many months after it had been placed, I finally found out there was a group, it just wasn't very well advertised at all. They were pretty helpful for me and understood how I got to that point. The local mayor approved it. It's quite possible that this was the case down there to.

As to the damage and what you've seen around you, that isn't widespread from what I've experienced. I've seen maybe a handful of caches where geocachers had damaged anything other than grass and brush as they bushwhacked. I'd say what happend at your cache is a bit less common, but nonetheless unacceptable. That's something to discuss with those cachers. Overall, almost every cacher I've ever met is pretty respectful of the impact they have while caching and tries to minimize that.

TripCyclone

4.8k · June 14, 2009

I read the article and I have to say that the attitudes of those puling caches is appalling.

They said if we have time to play a game (implying its a stupid game) then we have time to volunteer to help them out cleaning parks and such.

Are we their kids or something?

They also have their own values of cemetaries and are trying to force them on everyone. I have to say that it is also appalling to have them push their prudish values on the general populace.

The Sheriff said it's not illegal so why are they pulling the caches?

June 16, 2009

I just completed a phone interview with reporter Matt Smith from the Cleburne Times Review.

There will be a follow up article with our side of the story in the next couple of days.

I’ll post a link once it gets published!

Johnson County, Texas

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