DNFs and bad maitenance by GC owner.

November 24, 2009

I have been an avid GCer for awhile now. Most days, I enjoy this hobby for many reasons. The friends I bring along due to their interest, have enjoyed it too.

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record. There have been a rash of them all in a row especially in large urban areas & parks. I will usually just log them in as DNFs and will return to look for them later. This is occuring over and over at a alarming rate. Even with virtual caches, my emails to the GC owners are going unanswered.

*How long do I wait for an answer to log in a virutal GC find? Sometimes, I am still waiting.

But I have noticed that when I read the online GC log, I was NOT alone. Sometimes there are a large number of other GCers having the same problem finding the same GC.

*Is there GC non-maitanence going on here?

I have noticed that some GC owners tie their GC placement & hints are connected to a local business, public park area, or local landscaping attribute. I go out searching for their GC and problems occur because the local business is gone, the public park area has become a private construction yard, or the landscaping bush has been removed by city crews. I log in a DNF and wonder why GC owners don't do better maitenance on these matters to keep the GC viable to us.

*Is it better to post a GC maitenance note on it's online public log or to email the GC owner person to person with this matter?

I don't mind helping GC owners on my searching with muggled GC because I have found several of those by cleaning them up and re-assembling them and placing them back at GZ. But recently, I have more DNFs than finds due to obvious GC owner's non-maitenance.

*What are the guildlines for GC owner's maitenance?

* What is the best way to correct GC owner's non-maitenance?

I am thinking of putting out my own first few GCs and I want to be a good GC owner with good maitenance. I need these to know thes guildlines too.

* Is it true that NO new virtual caches are allowed now only physical ones?

thanks, looking forward to learning the ropes on this.

November 24, 2009

Guidelines can be found here http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

If I see a cache with lods of DNFs and no owner activity I email the CO and if I get no response after a couple of emails I would post a Needs Archived log. This would bring it to the attention of the reviewers who can take it from there. Luckilly, I've never had to post a NA log.

If the cache is then rchived you can go and place another in it's place.

EDIT. Yes it's true, new virtuals are no longer allowed

Edited November 24, 2009 by paulbarratt

1.2k · November 24, 2009

*How long do I wait for an answer to log in a virutal GC find? Sometimes, I am still waiting. "

I've come to the point of logging the virtuals as a find at the same time that I send the e-mail to the owner. My log usually says "E-mail on it's way". I've not had one objection from any CO even if he has said "e-mail me first....". If I ever do have a problem (like the CO deletes my log), I'll get a message to that effect and I'll resolve the issue then. Meanwhile, my logging is up to date.

Owner Maintenance problems - Order of precedence:

1. DNF first - you must have visited the cache site first to determine if there really is an issue - no armchair cache policing.

2. Needs Maintenance log at the same time as the DNF if you've found evidence of the cache but it needs repair like a new log, broken container, etc.

3. E-mail to the owner before any further action to give him the opportunity to fix or replace the cache.

4. Needs archived log if there already is a NM log and a string of DNFs and the owner is missing (hasn't logged on in some time).

It's alway a good idea to e-mail the CO privately before posting any public NA logs.

Err... These are my guidelines, not Groundspeak's or the caching community.

November 24, 2009

Thanks for the info....it's informative and helpful.

I have been erring on the side to protect the GC owner in many DNFs. But lately, my ratio of DFNs (and looking very well for half an hour or so) to Finds has been a dismal and un-fun 6 DNFs to 1 find.

Edited November 24, 2009 by calgriz

4.2k · November 24, 2009

I have been an avid GCer for awhile now.

Joined: 18-June 09
Total Caches Found 38

It may seem like a long time, but in the grand scheme of things, you've really just started. Heck, in the grand scheme of things I've just started.

I've come to the point of logging the virtuals as a find at the same time that I send the e-mail to the owner. My log usually says "E-mail on it's way". I've not had one objection from any CO even if he has said "e-mail me first....". If I ever do have a problem (like the CO deletes my log), I'll get a message to that effect and I'll resolve the issue then. Meanwhile, my logging is up to date.

I've started doing this two, with only a couple of exceptions and those involved answering questions regarding areas I could not access and had substituted with research (not for the whole virtual, just small parts of it.) I checked with the owner first if my research was acceptable as I also had met all the other requirements- picture at location, etc.

November 24, 2009

*How long do I wait for an answer to log in a virutal GC find? Sometimes, I am still waiting. "

I've come to the point of logging the virtuals as a find at the same time that I send the e-mail to the owner. My log usually says "E-mail on it's way". I've not had one objection from any CO even if he has said "e-mail me first....". If I ever do have a problem (like the CO deletes my log), I'll get a message to that effect and I'll resolve the issue then. Meanwhile, my logging is up to date.

I do the same. With one exception where the cache owner worded the requirement to e-mail first very strongly and I figured it wouldn't hurt to just wait for a week for a reply before logging the find. That CO did in fact reply back pretty quickly.

November 24, 2009

I don't have any disagreement with Cache O'Plenty's 4 rules, these are addenda. A few things not addressed:

First, as a relative newbie with less than 40 finds, your DNFs count for less. Especially if it's more than a 2*Diff. Don't take this as a personal affront. You don't even have enough finds to even theoretically fill up half a fizzy grid, so you have not seen it all. Cachers with 10,000 finds haven't seen it all.

Even "easy finds" get DNFs occasionally so many(most?) COs will not bother getting the least bit concerned until some personal threshold is met. This is usually 3 or 4 DNFs or some Superstar cacher who is known to have a talent for picking up difficult hides has DNFed.

I have noticed that some GC owners tie their GC placement & hints are connected to a local business, public park area, or local landscaping attribute. I go out searching for their GC and problems occur because the local business is gone, the public park area has become a private construction yard, or the landscaping bush has been removed by city crews. I log in a DNF and wonder why GC owners don't do better maitenance on these matters to keep the GC viable to us.

None of that means the feature that the cache is hidden in is gone. If it looks recent (certainly more recent than the last find) put it in a DNF and see CO'P's rule #2

Be careful with your Needs Maintenance logs, particularly on older caches. People die. People get bored. People change ISPs and lose their old email address and don't update their profile.... Oftentimes older hides may be being maintained by the community. Look at the number of Watchers of the cache. Only an Owner(possibly a mod) can clear a needs maintenance flag and that may get unwelcome attention from a reviewer. Get a beloved hide archived and some people might not be favorably disposed towards you. Ask a previous finder or contact your local caching association to see what others think.

The only new caches without containers and logs to sign that are allowed are Earthcaches. It's been long enough that almost the only virtuals that survive still are the ones with the interesting views, the historical interest, etc. They tend to be valued. When they get archived there's often much hand-wringing. :santa:

Second: Contacting COs and others. If you have to ask for help or permission, check the box that sends out your email address. It's human nature that if you make it difficult for someone to help you, they are much less likely to bother. If you're asking a detailed question it's not fun to have to copy and paste into the webform on GC.com and parse your questions on that unfriendly interface. Try it with this post. You'll wind up scrolling back and forth in that dinky box. This may be why you aren't getting responses back. The other could be that the CO of the virt realized after publishing the cache that its a pain in the rear to respond to every cacher that visits that insanely popular tourist spot that they didn't dare try to place a physical cache at and they never got around to editing the cache page to remove the requirement to wait for permission. If you want to be a goody-two-shoes, I wouldn't wait more than 48 hours. I got over it. I do the same as Cache O' Plenty. I've never had one find removed.

Last: Check your local caching group for local standards. Someone from Florida or even Northern CA is going to be operating in a different caching culture than you in the Simi Valley(I checked a couple of your finds). If you don't know where to find your local caching association, ask your local reviewer, they're undoubtedly a member. Kosh Naranek would appear to be one of them.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Markle2k

24.7k · November 24, 2009

This is my take.

Any active owner will see your regular DNF log that describes whatever you feel is important. You don't need to do a NM log at all to alert the owner. Inactive owners won't see it, and active owners don't need it.

The NM logs purpose is to flag the cache as having a problem (I prefer problems that get in the way of finding it as opposed to a low stock of sway or a Damp log) so other finders can filter it out or ignore the cache.

I've read NM logs that say something like "looked around the area and the owner may want to check on the cache, besides the new grizzly den will be going here" Knowing the grizzly den is going in somewhere OTHER than my cache location I emailed the cacher to see if they were even looking anywhere near the right spot but they never responded.

Unless you have exellent knowledge of where a cache is supposed to be and it's not there a DNF really isn't automaticly a NM. There is a lot of circumstances that can come into play. I've got two caches that have some DNF's. One needs checked as that's cause for concern, it's not a hard find. The other piles up DNF's like nobodys' business. It's just a difficult hide in an "oh, that should have been easier" spot.

10.1k · November 25, 2009

I'm still a newby here. I've only been caching five and a half years. I run about a twelve percent DNF ratio.

DNF means that I didn't find it! I am quite capable of tripping over a 1/1 and not finding it. Just because I DNFed it does not mean that there is a problem with the cache. Just that I didn't find it.

If it's listed as an easy cache, and there are a lot of DNFs, then there might be a problem. Especially if the owner has not been active in a few years. If the trees are all missing, or the fence has been taken down, then, yes, a NM is probably in order. Goodness. I seem to have logged eleven NMs in the last five ad a half years! "Cache full of water. Everything inside is a soggy mess" ranks #1. "Oops. Sorry I broke it." "Cache appears to be missing, as does the cache owner." Still waiting on a resolution to "Cache not found at coordinates listed. Cache description is almost two miles from the listed coords."

Good cache owners take the DNFs into account compared to what they know of their cache, And take action accordingly. Bad cache owners pay attention neither to the DNFS nor the NMs.

As to virtuals, I send the required e-mail, and log them at the same time. Some virtual cache owners do not respond within weeks, if ever.

2.4k · November 25, 2009

I'm a newbie too, with only 560 finds.

I'd have to say Im in the same boat as you though.

I find a lot of caches that have been abandoned. I find a lot of caches with DNF's on them for six months or a year and the cache owner has last logged in two years ago. (in one case the CO did indeed die)

I am glad to read that there are some the community has taken up caring for.

I post a needs maintenance, and then put it on my watch list. If no one replies or responds, I'll e-mail the CO. If no one responds and then I'll post a needs archiving.

Sometimes I've posted a needs archiving to get their attention when nothing else has worked, and I've written that in the logs.

I figure someone has got to deal with the abandoned caches that are missing, so it might as well be me. I dont mind, and a lot would rather focus on their counts then doing this. That's OK too.

I've had people think I was anxious to place a cache in their spot, when I'm just tired of seeing so many caches with a year of DNF's and no one checking the cache, or whatever.

When the cache owner is present, I let them deal with it however they see fit.

8k · November 25, 2009

I have been an avid GCer for awhile now. Most days, I enjoy this hobby for many reasons. The friends I bring along due to their interest, have enjoyed it too.

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record. There have been a rash of them all in a row especially in large urban areas & parks. I will usually just log them in as DNFs and will return to look for them later. This is occuring over and over at a alarming rate. Even with virtual caches, my emails to the GC owners are going unanswered.

My seach area has a big overlap with yours and if anything I am getting fewer DNFs than I did even a few years ago. I suppose that experience counts for a lot of it, and perhaps I've already found most of the older cachers, where the original hider has just given up on geocaching and doesn't bother to maintain their cache any more. Newer caches are less likely to be missing, but on the other hand a cache that has survived a long time is likely to have been well placed so it doesn't get found by muggles and stolen. And just as a hitter in baseball can have a slump, it is not uncommon to hit a streak where you get more DNFs (or one where you are finding every cache). My guess is what you are seeing is really just normal and not so much caused by a bunch of people who have stopped doing maintenance on their caches.

*How long do I wait for an answer to log in a virutal GC find?

Some virtual owners don't bother responding to emails. Just go a head and log your find. This is one of the problems that lead to the decision not to publish new virtuals.

*Is there GC non-maitanence going on here?

Older caches tend to have more problems like this. The hint may no longer be correct, access to the cache site may be difficult, permission that was given when the cache was placed no longer applies. Sometimes on older caches, the owner has stopped geocaching or has moved away from the area. If there is a maintenance problem you should try to contact the cache owner. You may also log a needs maintenance log on the cache page.

*Is it better to post a GC maitenance note on it's online public log or to email the GC owner person to person with this matter?

Try emailing the owner first. If the owner doesn't respond post a needs maintenance note.

*What are the guildlines for GC owner's maitenance?

* What is the best way to correct GC owner's non-maitenance?

The cache maintenance guildelines are here. If an owner continues to ignore maintenance requests (emails to owner and needs maintenance notes) you may post a Needs Archive log. This will bring the issue to the attention of a reviewer. If the reviewer determines a cache is not being maintained per the guidelines the cache may be archived.

* Is it true that NO new virtual caches are allowed now only physical ones?

This is true. See here for my explanation as to why new virtual caches are not allowed.

7.3k · November 25, 2009

The only time to log Needs Maintenance is when you've FOUND the cache, and it is in poor condition (I'd say very poor condition). Not when you have NOT found the cache. Use a DNF log for that.

There's no way to determine if a cache needs maintenance if you haven't found it.

6.5k · November 25, 2009

I have been an avid GCer for awhile now. Most days, I enjoy this hobby for many reasons. The friends I bring along due to their interest, have enjoyed it too.

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record. There have been a rash of them all in a row especially in large urban areas & parks. I will usually just log them in as DNFs and will return to look for them later. This is occuring over and over at a alarming rate. Even with virtual caches, my emails to the GC owners are going unanswered.

Welcome to the game-I hope you continue to have lots of fun for years to come. I've been doing this for over seven years and had one of my best experiences ever last Saturday. And I was able to share it with three of my oldest geopals and some new ones too.

*How long do I wait for an answer to log in a virutal GC find? Sometimes, I am still waiting.
But I have noticed that when I read the online GC log, I was NOT alone. Sometimes there are a large number of other GCers having the same problem finding the same GC. *Is there GC non-maitanence going on here?

I wouldn't wait at all to log my legit find on a virtual cache. It's possible that the owners are AWOL, but as long as you have visited the location and complied with the requirements for logging a find, go ahead. As the owner of a virt I always reply, but that's just how I play.

I have noticed that some GC owners tie their GC placement & hints are connected to a local business, public park area, or local landscaping attribute. I go out searching for their GC and problems occur because the local business is gone, the public park area has become a private construction yard, or the landscaping bush has been removed by city crews. I log in a DNF and wonder why GC owners don't do better maitenance on these matters to keep the GC viable to us.
*Is it better to post a GC maitenance note on it's online public log or to email the GC owner person to person with this matter?

Again, some cachers are better maintainers than others. Some are better hiders than others. Sometimes the cache is still there and the hider/owner is long gone. Sometimes life gets in the way of geocaching. (There is a thread on the front page with an apology from a cacher who was diagnosed with leukemia earlier this year, and has held onto some TB's for too long.)

If you get in the habit of checking the previous logs you might have better luck avoiding MIA caches, or finding those you are not. If there hasn't been a find in six months, and no one before then reported any issues and there weren't many DNF's then maybe it is gone-why waste time there? Maybe someone will post a cryptic hint in their log that can help you. But don't post a NM log unless you find a cache that needs maintenance. How do you know?

I don't mind helping GC owners on my searching with muggled GC because I have found several of those by cleaning them up and re-assembling them and placing them back at GZ. But recently, I have more DNFs than finds due to obvious GC owner's non-maitenance.
*What are the guildlines for GC owner's maitenance?

* What is the best way to correct GC owner's non-maitenance?

That is commendable behaviour and part of why this is such a great community. You have already been linked to the guidelines, so I won't do that again. I will quote the relevant portion though-

Cache Maintenance

The cache owner will assume all responsibility of their cache listings.

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive the listing.

There is no best way to correct a cache owners lack of maintenance as there isn't any one reason why it isn't being maintained.

I am thinking of putting out my own first few GCs and I want to be a good GC owner with good maitenance. I need these to know thes guildlines too.

Just take the time to really read them. There is also a brief tutorial on hiding your first cache here.

* Is it true that NO new virtual caches are allowed now only physical ones?

Yes that is correct. But if you have something that you want to share with others, you can use it as a stage of a multi cache.

November 25, 2009

When you say soggy log do you mean damp yet signable or so damp it's unsignable? Bc given part of the game involves signing the log, that seems like a big deal to me. I've postd at least one or two NM on caches where I've seen notes about an unsignable log going back weeks or months and then I find it in the same state. If it seems like a relatively new issue I'm more likely to write a note or email the CO.

The NM logs purpose is to flag the cache as having a problem (I prefer problems that get in the way of finding it as opposed to a low stock of sway or a Damp log) so other finders can filter it out or ignore the cache.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Opalblade

19k · November 25, 2009

When you say soggy log do you mean damp yet signable or so damp it's unsignable? Bc given part of the game involves signing the log, that seems like a big deal to me. I've postd at least one or two NM on caches where I've seen notes about an unsignable log going back weeks or months and then I find it in the same state. If it seems like a relatively new issue I'm more likely to write a note or email the CO.
The NM logs purpose is to flag the cache as having a problem (I prefer problems that get in the way of finding it as opposed to a low stock of sway or a Damp log) so other finders can filter it out or ignore the cache.

To my way of thinking, I would probably only post a Needs Maint log if the log was like paper mache, all wadded up inside the cache, or if it was clear that the container was obviously leaking for some reason. Damp logs do happen, and are not the end of the world. Often you can dry them out yourself if you're not in too much of a hurry.

2.2k · November 25, 2009

I agree with all of the above, but here's a slightly different way of saying it:

It's hard to believe, but some people actually start out interested in this game, and then just give it up and walk away! I know, I know... it's hard for me to believe too. Someone places a couple of nice caches, and then just disappears. Or you see a log from five years ago on a great cache and the writer talks about being "hooked" but they found three caches on that day and then never logged another find!

So no, owner maintenance is probably not getting worse, you're just noticing it more and can't understand why it happens at all. As for what to do about it, do whatever is most fun and satisfying for you. Do extensive maintenance yourself, email the owners, log notes on the cache page, cross that cache off your list and move on. FWIW, I HATE not finding a cache, and part of the game for me is laughing at myself as I struggle to keep my feet from taking me back for "one last look."

19k · November 25, 2009

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record.

I realize that others have pointed this out already, but I want to ask you how it is that you know that the caches were missing? Because you didn't find them?

November 25, 2009

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record.
I realize that others have pointed this out already, but I want to ask you how it is that you know that the caches were missing? Because you didn't find them?

BTW: good thread topic, huh?

Back- Ohh, I don't know....

Because for 11 months every GCer hasn't found that particular GC according to logs.......I have gone back twice more times since logging it at my DNF in that log entry, asking for some input from the GC owner. Nothing back from CO.

CO owner AWOL ????

Should that GC log marked as needing to be 'archived' by me or what ?

Edited November 25, 2009 by calgriz

November 25, 2009

I have noticed that some GC owners tie their GC placement & hints are connected to a local business, public park area, or local landscaping attribute. I go out searching for their GC and problems occur because the local business is gone, the public park area has become a private construction yard, or the landscaping bush has been removed by city crews. I log in a DNF and wonder why GC owners don't do better maitenance on these matters to keep the GC viable to us.

<snipped>

thanks, looking forward to learning the ropes on this.

FOR EXAMPLE: There is Mission Hills, Calif GC called 'Hooray for Hollywood' outside a defunct closed vacant Hollywood Video store. The only way you would know the store was there hosting the GC was the a long faded sign. The store is gone! The GC hints and directions are using the GC pre-change context. With the change, Good luck.

Another, a Westlake, Calif GC was hosted on a tree branch just off a freeway offramp landscaped median area that now is Caltrans construction yard. The open garden median is gone. It is a fenced yard now. The GC hints and directions are using the GC pre-change context. With the huge changes, Good luck.

There are others like this...I have been there.

**Why don't the CO do some needed maitanence to their online entries and GCs to adapt for the obvious severe changes to their GC entries?

** Or is this another case of COers on their own ?

I'm just sayin'.....

Edited November 25, 2009 by calgriz

19k · November 25, 2009

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record.
I realize that others have pointed this out already, but I want to ask you how it is that you know that the caches were missing? Because you didn't find them?

BTW: good thread topic, huh?

Back- Ohh, I don't know....

Because for 11 months every GCer hasn't found that particular GC according to logs.......I have gone back twice more times since logging it at my DNF in that log entry, asking for some input from the GC owner. Nothing back from CO.

CO owner AWOL ????

Should that GC log marked as needing to be 'archived' by me or what ?

"That" geocache? I thought you were referring to a glut of geocaches, not just one. Is this really all about just one single cache that seems to be missing? I'm confused.

There have been a rash of them all in a row

19k · November 25, 2009

FOR EXAMPLE: There is Mission Hills, Calif GC called 'Hooray for Hollywood' outside a defunct closed vacant Hollywood Video store. The only way you would know the store was there hosting the GC was the a long faded sign. The store is gone! The GC hints and directions are using the GC pre-change context. With the change, Good luck.

You mean, this one that you found with 72 finds and only two DNFs? Someone before you does say that the log is wet, but did not post a Needs Maintenance log for that. The cache owner was last online yesterday (Nov 24, 2009).

November 25, 2009

But for several weeks now, it seems the GCes I have been searching for are missing and were DNFs for my record.
I realize that others have pointed this out already, but I want to ask you how it is that you know that the caches were missing? Because you didn't find them?

BTW: good thread topic, huh?

Back- Ohh, I don't know....

Because for 11 months every GCer hasn't found that particular GC according to logs.......I have gone back twice more times since logging it at my DNF in that log entry, asking for some input from the GC owner. Nothing back from CO.

CO owner AWOL ????

Should that GC log marked as needing to be 'archived' by me or what ?

"That" geocache? I thought you were referring to a glut of geocaches, not just one. Is this really all about just one single cache that seems to be missing? I'm confused.

There have been a rash of them all in a row

Let's try to answer the concept of my questions, huh? ....I don't have time to list ALL my specific experiences with this problem. It would take too long. Also, you will notice that I'm not alone in these same questions, so let's not make this about me or my GC numbers or ???....It's a concept that is occurring to many and daily. Get the big picture here, please.

It looks like the system has a flaw with possible non-oversight of AWOL COs that leaves us GCers in the dark.

I already know what to do about this matter, anyways. I will move forward.

Let's not make this an instance of regretting I asked here, OK ?

Edited November 25, 2009 by calgriz

19k · November 25, 2009

Excuse me, but you came here and stated that there was an increasing number of caches that were missing because you could not find them. I asked you politely how you could know that they were missing if you didn't know where they were (a logical question, I would think) and you answered, "Because for 11 months every GCer hasn't found that particular GC" You didn't even provide the GC ID so that we could take a look at it to see if the cache owner has been active, if anyone has posted NM or NA logs, or anything like that.

And then, you give another example cache (with a searchable name this time, at least) where the only "maintenance" that might possibly be required is a dry log.

Your question was, *Is there GC non-maitanence going on here? My answer, at least, is... I have no idea. You haven't provided us with enough information to give you an answer. I was trying to get that information from you.

November 25, 2009

I have been erring on the side to protect the GC owner in many DNFs.

Let's not make this an instance of regretting I asked here, OK ?

I'm sorry you didn't. And I told you why.

Knowschad said: "Because for 11 months every GCer hasn't found that particular GC" You didn't even provide the GC ID "....

If you are curious, you could look up my GCs and DNFs, now can't you?

"Lake Balboa Park MPC #2"

"Stowed with rabbits"

"Cricket, Anyone?"

and more.....

But that wasn't my point now,

AGAIN...It looks like the system has a flaw with possible non-oversight of AWOL COs that leaves us searching GCers in the 'dark'. I already know what to do about this matter, anyways. I will move forward.

Have a nice life. BYE.

Edited November 25, 2009 by calgriz

19k · November 26, 2009

If you are curious, you could look up my GCs and DNFs, now can't you?
"Lake Balboa Park MPC #2"

"Stowed with rabbits"

"Cricket, Anyone?"

and more.....

But that wasn't my point now,

AGAIN...It looks like the system has a flaw with possible non-oversight of AWOL COs that leaves us searching GCers in the 'dark'. I already know what to do about this matter, anyways. I will move forward.

Have a nice life. BYE.

OK, thanks for some details. No, we can't check your DNFs. We can see your finds, but the only way to see your DNFs would be to painstakingly check all caches near your finds, and even that would not be a sure thing.

"Lake Balboa Park MPC #2" is interesting. It hasn't been found in over a year, with 7 DNFs on a 1 1/2 difficulty cache. There are two Needs Maintenance logs on it, but only because the log was full. The cache owner was last online only a few days ago, yet hasn't found or hidden a cache since 2006. Did you say that you have sent him a polite email? Did you receive a reply?

"Stowed with rabbits" only has 3 DNFs, one in August, and two in November. It is a 1 difficulty, so there is reason to suspect that it has gone missing, and the last one to (ahem!!) claim a find, said, "I am pretty sure I was really close as I found some spilled swag." The cache owner has not been active since October 24, 2008, found exactly 1 cache, and (unfortunately) has hidden 2. This one is ripe for either a Needs Archived log or an email to the reviewer.

On "Cricket, Anyone?", I think you did the right thing by posting a Needs Maintenance log. A previous finder even went by to amend his previous log and could not find it. The cache owner has not logged in since October, and doesn't seem to be finding caches anymore, but October isn't all that long ago. This one is borderline, in my opinion. I think that I'd keep an eye on it, and if your NM log doesn't get any action soon, either post a NA log, or email the reviewer. Again, you could also write a polite email to the cache owner to see if there may be a good reason he hasn't been able to maintain his cache.

Meanwhile, I'd suggest that you take a look at the caches that you plan to go after, and skip any that has a lot of recent DNFs. I use pocket queries with GSAK, myself, and use the little log indicator column to flag anything that may be missing (four red squares means four recent DNF's). I'll take a look at the log page for those caches, and delete them from my query if it looks hopeless.

Now... not to berate you in the least, but I see that you have not hidden any caches yet. Once you do (IF you do) you may have a different perspective on this "problem". Is this a "flaw in the system"? Maybe. Is it the end of the world? Nope. Shoot... you don't know... maybe the hider's kid just died. Maybe he/she was just diagnosed with terminal cancer. There are things that are more important than cache maintenance.

Either don't hunt them, or maybe even make them your caching specialty. It can be pretty rewarding to occasionally turn up a cache that was thought to be missing.

14k · November 26, 2009

If you are curious, you could look up my GCs and DNFs, now can't you?

We can look at your profile and it'll show caches that you've found, but it will not show the name or GC id of caches where you've posted a DNF (or any other log type) unless you also posted a "Found It" log.

19k · November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

November 26, 2009

If you are curious, you could look up my GCs and DNFs, now can't you?

We can look at your profile and it'll show caches that you've found, but it will not show the name or GC id of caches where you've posted a DNF (or any other log type) unless you also posted a "Found It" log.

Thanks for the clear concise help sans the unnecessary berating 'attitude'.

8k · November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2 - owner has not been active is some time. It probable needs a needs maintenance or a note sent to the owner asking for him to check on it. He will likely archive it. If there is no response you can post a Needs Archive and a reviewer will archive it.

Cricket, Anyone - owner is not active anymore. Hopefully he will respond your your needs maintenance and either replace or archive the cache. If he doesn't feel free to post an SBA and free up this area for a new cache.

These confirm what I said before these are older caches that I found a long time ago. Old cache are more likely to have these kinds of problems. If there are a lot of DNFs it may be time to get the caches archived so they don't show up on newbies lists of unfound caches and frustrate them when they look for a missing cache.

Stowed With Rabbits. This looks like a hide by a one-shot cache. Looks like they found one cache, then the hid one cache, then they never went caching again. I looked for this one a few weeks ago and posted a DNF. The last person to log it as found actually says he didn't find the cache only some spilled swag. My guess is that it should be archived as there seems to be no response from the cache owner. I've taken care of this for you.

All of these caches are placed in parks were the experience has been that cache don't last long (they get found by muggles). Combine that with owners who are not active and when the cache goes missing they don't get maintained or archived. Some cachers use GSAK to filter out caches that have more than one DNF in the latest logs.

November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Hey...you forgot about "the more!"

November 26, 2009

I am NOT a premium member here (now); what does this mean, "GSAK to filter out caches" ?

BTW: How is a newbie going to know what GCs are 'old' and 'new', easily ?

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2 - owner has not been active is some time. It probable needs a needs maintenance or a note sent to the owner asking for him to check on it. He will likely archive it. If there is no response you can post a Needs Archive and a reviewer will archive it.

Cricket, Anyone - owner is not active anymore. Hopefully he will respond your your needs maintenance and either replace or archive the cache. If he doesn't feel free to post an SBA and free up this area for a new cache.

These confirm what I said before these are older caches that I found a long time ago. Old cache are more likely to have these kinds of problems. If there are a lot of DNFs it may be time to get the caches archived so they don't show up on newbies lists of unfound caches and frustrate them when they look for a missing cache.

Stowed With Rabbits. This looks like a hide by a one-shot cache. Looks like they found one cache, then the hid one cache, then they never went caching again. I looked for this one a few weeks ago and posted a DNF. The last person to log it as found actually says he didn't find the cache only some spilled swag. My guess is that it should be archived as there seems to be no response from the cache owner. I've taken care of this for you.

All of these caches are placed in parks were the experience has been that cache don't last long (they get found by muggles). Combine that with owners who are not active and when the cache goes missing they don't get maintained or archived. Some cachers use GSAK to filter out caches that have more than one DNF in the latest logs.

Edited November 26, 2009 by calgriz

19k · November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Hey...you forgot about "the more!"

Sorry... here you go Four recent DNFs in a row, so that MUST be "the more" that you were referring to!

Edited November 26, 2009 by knowschad

6.5k · November 26, 2009

I am NOT a premium member here (now); what does this mean, "GSAK to filter out caches" ?

BTW: How is a newbie going to know what GCs are 'old' and 'new', easily ?

<SNIP>

GSAK is Geocaching Swiss Army Knife-a database management program that a lot of us use.

You can tell the age of a cache simply by looking at the placed on date on the cache listing page.

Edited November 26, 2009 by wimseyguy

19k · November 26, 2009

I am NOT a premium member here (now); what does this mean, "GSAK to filter out caches" ?
BTW: How is a newbie going to know what GCs are 'old' and 'new', easily ?

Well... there is an easy and inexpensive solution to that problem, but in any case... yes, you do need to be a premium member to get the pocket queries that make GSAK useful. (GSAK="Geocaching Swiss Army Knife, an extremely powerful shareware geocaching tool that you can learn more about here: http://www.gsak.net/ )

Aside from using a tool like that... you can always take a look at the cache pages before going out after the caches. GSAK just makes it easier. "Cached Out", below, is one that you would probably wish to avoid:

Edited November 26, 2009 by knowschad

November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Hey...you forgot about "the more!"

Sorry... here you go Four recent DNFs in a row, so that MUST be "the more" that you were referring to!

No.....wrong.

November 26, 2009

I am NOT a premium member here (now); what does this mean, "GSAK to filter out caches" ?

BTW: How is a newbie going to know what GCs are 'old' and 'new', easily ?

<SNIP>

GSAK is Geocaching Swiss Army Knife-a database management program that a lot of us use.

You can tell the age of a cache simply by looking at the placed on date on the cache listing page.

thanks....

19k · November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Hey...you forgot about "the more!"

Sorry... here you go Four recent DNFs in a row, so that MUST be "the more" that you were referring to!

No.....wrong.

It was a joke.

November 26, 2009

For anyone that wants links to the caches that were mentioned:

Lake Balboa Park MPC #2

Stowed with rabbits

Cricket, Anyone?

Hey...you forgot about "the more!"

Sorry... here you go Four recent DNFs in a row, so that MUST be "the more" that you were referring to!

No.....wrong.

It was a joke.

I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

19k · November 26, 2009

It was a joke.
I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

You said that I forgot about "the More", so I linked to a cache named "The more you read, the more things you will know" Get it?

Besides, you felt that you knew me well enough earlier to imply that my posts to you were condescending, didn't you? :laughing: No offense intended, nore taken.

November 26, 2009

It was a joke.
I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

You said that I forgot about "the More", so I linked to a cache named "The more you read, the more things you will know" Get it?

Besides, you felt that you knew me well enough earlier to imply that my posts to you were condescending, didn't you? No offense intended, nore taken.

They were condescending, berating, OFF TOPIC, overly judgemental and arrogant.....and you posted a very passive agressive bad joke by you. Don't believe me, just read the other postings by nice helpful folks with no attitude to see the huge difference.

**Man, I get the feeling like I'm talking to Cheer's obnoxious Cliffy Claven. Pretty sad.

Edited November 26, 2009 by calgriz

1.2k · November 26, 2009

You can also quickly tell if a cache is old just by it's GC number. If it's 6 characters, it's old. New ones all have 7 characters now.

GCV4RZ, in the snapshot above is older than all the rest.

1.5k · November 26, 2009

It was a joke.
I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

You said that I forgot about "the More", so I linked to a cache named "The more you read, the more things you will know" Get it?

Besides, you felt that you knew me well enough earlier to imply that my posts to you were condescending, didn't you? No offense intended, nore taken.

They were condescending, berating, OFF TOPIC, overly judgemental and arrogant.....and you posted a very passive agressive bad joke by you. Don't believe me, just read the other postings by nice helpful folks with no attitude to see the huge difference.

**Man, I get the feeling like I'm talking to Cheer's obnoxious Cliffy Claven. Pretty sad.

Sorry, but there's only one attitude I see being shown here, and it's not by knowschad. You got a mad on, and don't seem to have the maturity to get over it, and have become downrght rude! Others have been trying to calm you by their help, and I am wondering why they have bothered.

5k · November 26, 2009

It was a joke.
I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

You said that I forgot about "the More", so I linked to a cache named "The more you read, the more things you will know" Get it?

Besides, you felt that you knew me well enough earlier to imply that my posts to you were condescending, didn't you? No offense intended, nore taken.

They were condescending, berating, OFF TOPIC, overly judgemental and arrogant.....and you posted a very passive agressive bad joke by you. Don't believe me, just read the other postings by nice helpful folks with no attitude to see the huge difference.

**Man, I get the feeling like I'm talking to Cheer's obnoxious Cliffy Claven. Pretty sad.

Sorry, but there's only one attitude I see being shown here, and it's not by knowschad. You got a mad on, and don't seem to have the maturity to get over it, and have become downrght rude! Others have been trying to calm you by their help, and I am wondering why they have bothered.

Sadly, I have to agree.

BTW, it's a two way street. GC1Y3GD. You DNF'ed my cache, and emailed me asking for a clue. I reset it the next day, emailed you back and practically led you to the cache. For my efforts, I got a "THTC...". That's kind of like tipping the waiter a penny for bad service.

I find the complaints about "Hooray for Hollywood" to be very interesting. The description states that it is in a busy shopping area. It gives a hint that has nothing to do with the title. The fact that Hollywood Video has gone out of business should have nothing to do with the ability to find the cache. Put the coordinates in your reader and follow the arrow to the cache. Clues and hints are optional.

To keep this balanced. You do have a valid issue with the Cricket and Balboa Lake caches. Both of the cache owners have dropped out of the game, but have both have also tried to make an effort to monitor their caches. In the past, they have been rather quick to archive a missing, or problem cache. This seems to have changed over the last few months. I can guarantee you that neither would be offended if you took the next logical step and posted a Needs Archived log on those two caches.

November 26, 2009

You can also quickly tell if a cache is old just by it's GC number. If it's 6 characters, it's old. New ones all have 7 characters now.

GCV4RZ, in the snapshot above is older than all the rest.

very helpful thanks.

November 26, 2009

It was a joke.
I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

You said that I forgot about "the More", so I linked to a cache named "The more you read, the more things you will know" Get it?

Besides, you felt that you knew me well enough earlier to imply that my posts to you were condescending, didn't you? No offense intended, nore taken.

They were condescending, berating, OFF TOPIC, overly judgemental and arrogant.....and you posted a very passive agressive bad joke by you. Don't believe me, just read the other postings by nice helpful folks with no attitude to see the huge difference.

**Man, I get the feeling like I'm talking to Cheer's obnoxious Cliffy Claven. Pretty sad.

Sorry, but there's only one attitude I see being shown here, and it's not by knowschad. You got a mad on, and don't seem to have the maturity to get over it, and have become downrght rude! Others have been trying to calm you by their help, and I am wondering why they have bothered.

I thought this OFF topic matter was over, I guess not...

This is OFF topic post...But I my defense I should be allowed to make clear....

Opinions vary...I know how and what was said to me. I suggest you read the WHOLE thread from my first post until the mood deteriorated with several berating posts on my worthy topic.

Don't believe me, just read the other postings by nice helpful folks with no attitude to see the huge difference.

When a person can't post a simple question on a forum without this kind of judgemental berating being posted first and continued, that's very said for GCing.

"Tact is the art of recognizing when to be big and when not to belittle." It seems some people think they are superior and love to tell people so to some here just for GC numbers on their profile.

November 26, 2009

It was a joke.
I don't know you well enough to call you a clown.

You said that I forgot about "the More", so I linked to a cache named "The more you read, the more things you will know" Get it?

Besides, you felt that you knew me well enough earlier to imply that my posts to you were condescending, didn't you? No offense intended, nore taken.

They were condescending, berating, OFF TOPIC, overly judgemental and arrogant.....and you posted a very passive agressive bad joke by you. Don't believe me, just read the other postings by nice helpful folks with no attitude to see the huge difference.

**Man, I get the feeling like I'm talking to Cheer's obnoxious Cliffy Claven. Pretty sad.

Sorry, but there's only one attitude I see being shown here, and it's not by knowschad. You got a mad on, and don't seem to have the maturity to get over it, and have become downrght rude! Others have been trying to calm you by their help, and I am wondering why they have bothered.

Sadly, I have to agree.

BTW, it's a two way street. GC1Y3GD. You DNF'ed my cache, and emailed me asking for a clue. I reset it the next day, emailed you back and practically led you to the cache. For my efforts, I got a "THTC...". That's kind of like tipping the waiter a penny for bad service.

I find the complaints about "Hooray for Hollywood" to be very interesting. The description states that it is in a busy shopping area. It gives a hint that has nothing to do with the title. The fact that Hollywood Video has gone out of business should have nothing to do with the ability to find the cache. Put the coordinates in your reader and follow the arrow to the cache. Clues and hints are optional.

To keep this balanced. You do have a valid issue with the Cricket and Balboa Lake caches. Both of the cache owners have dropped out of the game, but have both have also tried to make an effort to monitor their caches. In the past, they have been rather quick to archive a missing, or problem cache. This seems to have changed over the last few months. I can guarantee you that neither would be offended if you took the next logical step and posted a Needs Archived log on those two caches.

TFTC....

IMHO: Maybe, I bring up an important problem, AWOL COs. It seems the way to solve this matter is for the GCing community to work around it until finally changed after many DNFs. I didn't know that because it was not addressed in one place. I had to ask, not expecting a berating 'dressing down' for asking a simple question. Shoot the messenger ?

I saw the same problem over and over happen to me and others saying so. Some posted on this thread to agree. GC at places when the GC title, hints, and other matters that now make no sense due to changing GC placement environment or landmark should be be allowed to be discussed without all the un-cooperative tone started by others. It's about the issue and let's not make this about me.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Edited November 26, 2009 by calgriz

November 26, 2009

calgriz, welcome to Geocaching and to the Forums. Opinions run strong in here and sometimes tempers flare. Sometimes people forget to be nice to the new kids.

Knowschad asked for some more info but maybe sounded accusatory to you. I don't think (s)he intended to offend you, but you each got pretty snarky with each other rather quickly. Let's all be a little more forgiving and not look for offenses here. There's already too much of that.

And for the rest of you: Let's not get into fights with somebody on their first day in the forums.

November 26, 2009

calgriz, welcome to Geocaching and to the Forums. Opinions run strong in here and sometimes tempers flare. Sometimes people forget to be nice to the new kids.

Knowschad asked for some more info but maybe sounded accusatory to you. I don't think (s)he intended to offend you, but you each got pretty snarky with each other rather quickly. Let's all be a little more forgiving and not look for offenses here. There's already too much of that.

And for the rest of you: Let's not get into fights with somebody on their first day in the forums.

I appreciate your kinds words to me. But, this is not my first "rodeo" in these forums. I only bite, when people bite me, repeatedly. Even then, I will give way for the sake of civility. Some people here should check themselves and stop shooting the messenger.

AWOL COs should be addressed and should be remedied especially by those who take inordinate pride in high GCs number discovered. Save 'the swagger' for more important matters or lose it all together. Many people feel that 'the swagger' is childish anyways in these matters.

November 27, 2009

Sorry Calgriz, but you keep taking your own thread off topic. (turn the other cheek and move on else be ridiculed for your further actions)

I am a newbie at GC'n also. And now my GF is getting right into it! "Road Trip" seems to be yelled quite often lately!

I do feel the same about owner maintenance. I check my local area very often. Not many caches around here but still a lot of CO's that seem to have dropped off the face. What I do is log a dnf if I can't find it. Doesn't mean it isn't there. It is all part of the game.

If I see lots of other dnf's, then I send an email to the owner just to verify if it is there or not. Don't need any clues then already provided. If I see a local cache go "temp disabled", I read what the owner says. If they don't have time I email them asking if they want help. I also include that I will adopt their cache if they don't see fit to participate anymore.

I give them a couple of days to respond. Then I might even go out and fix the problem for them if I have already found it. I would rather see others find it then have it go missing forever, even if it isn't my own cache.

If I see that the CO is very inactive, then I assume they might not even reply. If they don't reply to my help or adoption request, then I assume they are done and log a "Needs Archiving". I had one owner that once they seen the Needs Archiving request, they actually went out and made sure that it was still there after a 6 month period of DNF's. I admit, it was a hard find but I did find it finally.

So there is some food for thought for your problems. We are all here to help each other, whether it be in the forums or in the field.

November 27, 2009

Sorry Calgriz, but you keep taking your own thread off topic. (turn the other cheek and move on else be ridiculed for your further actions)

No, that's factually untrue. I suggest you read the whole thread instead of the last few postings. Shooting the messenger, AGAIN. Yawn.

I am a newbie at GC'n also. And now my GF is getting right into it! "Road Trip" seems to be yelled quite often lately!

I do feel the same about owner maintenance. I check my local area very often. Not many caches around here but still a lot of CO's that seem to have dropped off the face. What I do is log a dnf if I can't find it. Doesn't mean it isn't there. It is all part of the game.

If I see lots of other dnf's, then I send an email to the owner just to verify if it is there or not. Don't need any clues then already provided. If I see a local cache go "temp disabled", I read what the owner says. If they don't have time I email them asking if they want help. I also include that I will adopt their cache if they don't see fit to participate anymore.

I give them a couple of days to respond. Then I might even go out and fix the problem for them if I have already found it. I would rather see others find it then have it go missing forever, even if it isn't my own cache.

If I see that the CO is very inactive, then I assume they might not even reply. If they don't reply to my help or adoption request, then I assume they are done and log a "Needs Archiving". I had one owner that once they seen the Needs Archiving request, they actually went out and made sure that it was still there after a 6 month period of DNF's. I admit, it was a hard find but I did find it finally.

So there is some food for thought for your problems. We are all here to help each other, whether it be in the forums or in the field.

I did all that preparation with GCs and COs emails well before I decided bring this matter up. To assume I didn't makes...you know what they say about the word 'assume'.

But I'm repeating myself unnecessarily now. I care not to.

DNFs and bad maitenance by GC owner.

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