What's going on with PA DCNR?

[+VernContra]

Hello all! First time poster here. I recently hiked the Quehanna trail and thought about putting out some Geocaches on the trail. I think it would increase traffic on the trail.

When I went to the DCNR website, PA DCNR Website it describes the guidelines and has the following quote-

"Caches placed in State Park lands require an administrative fee of $25.00. This fee is used to cover the costs associated with approving the cache site, including the PNDI review and processing the necessary paperwork."

 

Also the cache has a lifetime of three years after which it must be removed. Someone please read this and tell me if this is what they have experienced.

Thanks for the help.

Edited May 18, 2010 by VernContra

[+whistler & co.]

Someone pointed this out to me a few days ago. It must be a new thing because this past week was the first I heard of it. I guess we all know what is going to happen to caching on state lands now, eh? Here's the link: DCNR Cache Placement Guidelines

Edited May 19, 2010 by whistler & co.

[+Klatch]

I have an email in to DCNR asking if this applies to State Forests also, since the web site specifically says "State Parks". The number of placements on DCNR lands is already low, this will about kill it off.

I wonder how long until the Game Commission picks up on this potential revenue stream?

[+HolyCowboys]

Yes, that's what it looks like will happen. Geocachers are going to be charges a $25 fee to place a geocache in a state park or on state forest ground. I have emailed my state representative about my displeasure. I suggest you all do the same.

In addition you can contact DCNR and let then know what you think as well. Here is a link to email DCNR.

ra-askdcnr@state.pa.us

 

I have talked with several active geocachers from central PA. None of them will be placing caches in state forests while this $25 fee is in place. In addition none of them will be renewing existing geocaches.

 

Please let DCNR and your state reps know how you feel.

 

Thanks,

HolyCowboys

[+HolyCowboys]

PA State Representative Matt Gabler. I encourage you to e-mail him regarding this policy. mgabler@pahousegop.com

 

Thanks again,

HolyCowboys

[+edscott]

Yes this will just about kill geocaching in Pennsylvania for me. I'm not going to spend my time in suburban parks and parking lots.

[+edscott]

Interesting this fee is being charged for the time and effort needed to insure that a cache has a minimal impact on the environment and is being brought to us by the same people that approve thousands of acres of clear cutting in our forests and miles of bulldozed roads to remote drilling sites that scar the mountainsides. But still we must be sure that 5 ounces of tupperware doesn't destroy the earth.....

[+John in Valley Forge]

I wonder how they will remove virtual caches that do not have the proper permit? Chop down the forest or dynamite the monument so no one looks at it?

[+Klatch]

Let your State Representative and Senator know how you feel about the fee. You can find out who they are at this web site

[+ktreat1]

Hello, am just getting back into geocaching and just learned of the new fee PA DCNR is imposing on their cache permits, are there any groups addressing this issue? I have emailed DCNR and a few state representatives but feel they will fall on deaf ears.

[+edscott]

Let your State Representative and Senator know how you feel about the fee. You can find out who they are at this web site

 

Wrote both of mine... Might also take a hiatus from volunteering for DCNR until they figure this out.

[+Klatch]

This is a response to my inquiry about the fee on State Forests.

=============================================

Dear Mr. ,

This administrative fee is in-line with other event requests that occur within State Parks in which an administrative fee is charged and an agreement is used to govern the activity. Please know that the $25 administrative fee for new geocaches in state parks is used to cover the costs associated with reviewing the cache site, including performing an environmental review and processing the necessary paperwork. The new fee is not retroactive for caches that are currently active and in place. However, any subsequent renewals and all new caches are subject to the fee. Geocache agreements are issued for three-year terms. Finally, according to the geocache guidelines, the $25 is collected only after the site is approved and before the permit is issued.

 

The Bureau of Forestry, administering State Forest Lands, is not charging an administrative fee for caches.

Should you have further questions regarding the geocache fee on State Park Lands, please contact them at:

 

DCNR-Bureau of State Parks

Park Operations & Maintenance Division

PO Box 8551

Harrisburg, PA 17105-8551

717-787-6640

 

Park-operations@state.pa.us

[+Cardinal Red]

 

Wrote both of mine...Might also take a hiatus from volunteering for DCNR until they figure this out.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing. I would be satisfied if they would credit me $1.00 toward the fee for every hour volunteered by Geocachers. The DCNR CITO event I hosted last year would have paid for about 3 caches. And having worked beside them on several other occasions, I know how thin the local DCNR paid staff is stretched. The DCNR administrators have no clue how short sighted this new policy is. They will gain nothing except driving us away.

[+TEAM HARTSOCK]

Yes this will just about kill geocaching in Pennsylvania for me. I'm not going to spend my time in suburban parks and parking lots.

 

You don't have to spend your time in either of those places....this covers FORESTRY grounds, had nothing to do with State Game Lands. From what I have seen or experienced, there is alot more caches on State Game Lands than Forestry grounds due to the fact that they didn't need to be approved. I could be wrong, but it doesn't kill geocaching in PA.

[+briansnat]

Let your State Representative and Senator know how you feel about the fee. You can find out who they are at this web site

 

Wrote both of mine... Might also take a hiatus from volunteering for DCNR until they figure this out.

 

Be sure to let them know why

[+edscott]

Yes this will just about kill geocaching in Pennsylvania for me. I'm not going to spend my time in suburban parks and parking lots.

 

You don't have to spend your time in either of those places....this covers FORESTRY grounds, had nothing to do with State Game Lands. From what I have seen or experienced, there is alot more caches on State Game Lands than Forestry grounds due to the fact that they didn't need to be approved. I could be wrong, but it doesn't kill geocaching in PA.

 

Unfortunately State Game Lands and State Forest Lands are not equally distributed over the state. There are maps available that show the distribution. It appears that State Forests are not included for now in this new edict, so much of the state will not see a big impact. However, the good off road caches in this area will be significantly reduced.

[+KJcachers]

shooting themselves in the foot I say. Here in Virginia they are actually encouraging caching in the State Parks as a way to bring more PAYING visitors into the parks. They even created a series of their own(with the help of local cachers volunteering to help place the caches) with a multi cache in every State Park across the state. I guess PA just wants the parks to themselves and keep out potential paying customers. Hopefully VA won't change their practices and follow PA's stupid thinking.

 

Let me give you an example you may want to share.

 

Sky Meadows State Park in VA. In the last year we placed 10 new caches in that Park. There are a total of 14 caches within the park. At $25 a cache I am sure those caches would not have been placed. $350 to place caches? No way! Instead we have over 50 finds on our caches. Each visitor must pay $4 a vehicle to enter the park. So our caches have raised an additional $200+ for the Park from luring in cachers to visit the Park. Not to mention gift shop purchases, etc. By the end of the summer I am sure we will have doubled that number. There are geocachers across the state doing similar work in other Parks too.

 

VA State Parks understands the financial impact geocaching can have and are welcoming it with open arms. Perhaps PA should take notice. They seem to be trying to raise revenue by"taxing" cache placement.

 

BTW, We have taken up camping caching for the summer and fall and one of the states we were going to visit WAS Pennsylvania as it is still not too far to drive for us for a long weekend. Now with this news we will be changing our plans and staying right here in the good ol' Commonwealth of Virginia. I encourage all you PA cachers to come on down and enjoy our State Parks and Forests!

Edited May 25, 2010 by KJcachers

[+Klatch]

<snip> Each visitor must pay $4 a vehicle to enter the park. So our caches have raised an additional $200+ for the Park from luring in cachers to visit the Park. Not to mention gift shop purchases, etc. By the end of the summer I am sure we will have doubled that number. There are geocachers across the state doing similar work in other Parks too.

Day use is free in PA State Parks. I think some may charge for use of the swimming pool. Picnicking and hiking is no cost. So, other than perhaps some extra revenue from the refreshment stands, geocaching wouldn't bring in any extra revenue unless the cachers are also campers.

[+KJcachers]

<snip> Each visitor must pay $4 a vehicle to enter the park. So our caches have raised an additional $200+ for the Park from luring in cachers to visit the Park. Not to mention gift shop purchases, etc. By the end of the summer I am sure we will have doubled that number. There are geocachers across the state doing similar work in other Parks too.

Day use is free in PA State Parks. I think some may charge for use of the swimming pool. Picnicking and hiking is no cost. So, other than perhaps some extra revenue from the refreshment stands, geocaching wouldn't bring in any extra revenue unless the cachers are also campers.

 

Thanks for that info! Perhaps they should have a day use fee. Still doesn't explain why they need to charge $25 to accept a form. How many caches placed will really get an environmental impact study before approval? If they are actually sending somebody out to check the coordinates then I can imagine there could be something better they could be doing with the employees time.

Edited May 25, 2010 by KJcachers

[+Cardinal Red]

... How many caches placed will really get an environmental impact study before approval? If they are actually sending somebody out to check the coordinates then I can imagine there could be something better they could be doing with the employees time.

 

From the DCNR State Parks/Forestry Geocaching Guidelines: Caches placed in State Park lands require an administrative fee of $25.00. This fee is used to cover the costs associated with approving the cache site, including the PNDI review and processing the necessary paperwork.

 

The Pennsylvania Natural Diversity Inventory (PNDI) review is an online process. Sensitive areas are designated in the online tool, and a quick check while still sitting in their office chair would catch any known environmental impact. For a few minutes of their time and a form they need $25. Dream on.

[+Klatch]

 

The Pennsylvania Natural Diversity Inventory (PNDI) review is an online process. Sensitive areas are designated in the online tool, and a quick check while still sitting in their office chair would catch any known environmental impact. For a few minutes of their time and a form they need $25. Dream on.

To the best of my knowledge, neither of my State Forest cache location was physically checked before approval. I do know they did the PNDI review. I have not placed any in State Parks, so I can't speak to their techniques.

Off topic, here is a link about the DCNR employee that approves geocaches for Weiser State Forest.

[+ktreat1]

Just found out that the $25 fee only applies to State parks only and isnt being charged for state forests, although wild areas and natural areas are off limits. Have been in contact with DCNR in Wellsboro,PA about placing a couple caches in the tioga state forest. Also the PNDI you can do yourself online,did for the two that i want to place and printed it out and sent along with the applications, here is the link for the webpage http://www.naturalheritage.state.pa.us/ bottom left is the link for the PNDI is pretty self explanitory.

[+edscott]

Interesting.. so if we do our own research and submit a copy with the form on what basis can they charge a fee? We have done the work for which they claim to need reimbursement.

[+Cardinal Red]

Interesting.. so if we do our own research and submit a copy with the form on what basis can they charge a fee? We have done the work for which they claim to need reimbursement.

 

Don't forget to bill them $25 for your time.

[+Harry Dolphin]

 

Wrote both of mine...Might also take a hiatus from volunteering for DCNR until they figure this out.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing. I would be satisfied if they would credit me $1.00 toward the fee for every hour volunteered by Geocachers. The DCNR CITO event I hosted last year would have paid for about 3 caches. And having worked beside them on several other occasions, I know how thin the local DCNR paid staff is stretched. The DCNR administrators have no clue how short sighted this new policy is. They will gain nothing except driving us away.

 

Of course, the question here is if they really care? Nobody seems to care anymore.

After fifteen years maintaining a trail in a state park, I asked the park manager (a geocacher herself) for written permission for an EarthCache. (At that time, written permission was required. Though many seem to have ignored that requirement.) After one visit (promising permision), and two letters, I got no response. It seems that written permission was not something she was willing to commit to. At the same time, I wrote several e-mails and letters to the trail conference concerning geocaching. They ignored me completely! Not even a response to day that they disagreed with me.

Hey. I know when I've wasted fifteen years, and several hundred hours maintaining your trail for you! (Actually, I love the place, and I enjoyed it...) But after that kind of response, someone else can maintain the trail.

From my experience, I'd say: Don't hold your breath. They don't care about you, or me.

[+KJcachers]

perhaps by driving park users away they think they can save on maintenance costs of the park? If nobody come to the park do we really need to cut the grass or groom the trail?

Edited May 27, 2010 by KJcachers

[+edscott]

perhaps by driving park users away they think they can save on maintenance costs of the park? If nobody come to the park do we really need to cut the grass or groom the trail?

 

Here in PA they keep track of the number of visitors and plan their annual closing threats accordingly. I did get an interesting response from my state Representative today. Color added by me... I also got a very similar letter from my State Senator John Rafferty. I'm sure the responses from parks will vary based on the individual park manager's views and attitudes, but hopefully most of them will see the recreational benefits and the visitors we add to their parks as a benefit to the park and the community.

 

Dear Ed,

 

Thank you for taking the time to contact me, expressing your concerns about being charged for placing geocashes to collect information. I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to respond.

 

Please know that this matter is internal DCNR policy and is not handled by the legislature. Furthermore, according to a DCNR representative, the $25.00 fee can be waived if the individual placing a cache in the park agrees to partner with the park or provide an in-kind service, like trash pick-up or trail maintenance.

 

If you would like to discuss this matter directly with DCNR’s director of Office of Education, Communication, and Partnership to make your frustrations known, I encourage you to call Gretchen Leslie at 717-772-9101.

 

Again, thank you for alerting me to your concerns. Meanwhile, rest assured that I will continue to fight for the rights and freedoms of Pennsylvanians across the Commonwealth.

 

Sam Rohrer

 

 

Rep. Samuel E. Rohrer

Member, 128th Legislative District

Chairman, House Finance Committee

PA House of Representatives

Harrisburg Office: 717-787-8550

Reading Office: 610-775-5130

Edited May 29, 2010 by edscott

[+GEO WALKER]

I have sent, by email, my "letter of discontent" to PA DCNR’s Director of Office of Education, Communication, and Partnership to Gretchen Leslie and my State Senator. I have also posted this as a topic on the Earthcache Form. Many EC's are in State Parks.

[+briansnat]

Please know that this matter is internal DCNR policy and is not handled by the legislature. Furthermore, according to a DCNR representative, the $25.00 fee can be waived if the individual placing a cache in the park agrees to partner with the park or provide an in-kind service, like trash pick-up or trail maintenance.

 

I think that is fairly reasonable.

[+Cardinal Red]

Please know that this matter is internal DCNR policy and is not handled by the legislature. Furthermore, according to a DCNR representative, the $25.00 fee can be waived if the individual placing a cache in the park agrees to partner with the park or provide an in-kind service, like trash pick-up or trail maintenance.

 

I think that is fairly reasonable.

I think it's the most reasonable policy that has ever been spawned by Pennsylvania bureaucracy. I had already adopted that as my personal policy to thank DCNR for the great relationship I've had with them at the Nolde Forest Environmental Education Center, just minutes from my home.

 

Of course the Nolde land manager retired earlier this year, and a permanent replacement had not been named the last time I checked. I'm looking forward to reports about other cacher experiences with this new "partnership" arrangement. When the time is right, I will certainly put it to the test myself. I have just under a year remaining on my current hide agreement, and it's time to start planning the next one.

[+GEO WALKER]

HEY FOLKS I GOT A RESPONSE!!!

 

6/9/10 Response from Mike Redding PA DCNR State Parks…

 

Hi Geo,

 

Thank you for contacting PA State Parks. We do understand your concerns regarding the newly instituted fee for placing geocaches within State Parks. Unfortunately, there is some confusion regarding the information that is being relayed to the public. Please know that the $25 administrative fee for new geocaches in state parks is used to cover the costs associated with reviewing the cache site, including performing an environmental review and processing the necessary paperwork. The new fee is not retroactive for caches that are currently active and in place. However, any subsequent renewals and all new caches are subject to the fee.

 

It’s also important to know that any geocaches that are partnered with State Parks, also referred to as "park sponsored", are not subject to the administrative fee what-so-ever. This include CITO (cache in trash out) events & educational caches such as an earthcache. We are encouraging our geocaching community to partner with our parks as volunteer & environmental educational advocates (or other means) as a way to request a waiver of the administrative fee - connecting people to the park and the importance of the resource.

 

We are certainly not looking for a way to discourage geocaching in State Parks. The administrative fee is only meant to help offset the costs associated with administering the program. You may be aware that our agency is under significant financial constraints and our budget continues to decline on an annual basis. In addition, the administrative fee for geocaches is now in line with other event requests that occur within State Parks in which an administrative fee is also charged, for example, fishing tournaments, marathons, walks, relays, wedding ceremonies, sailing regattas, etc.

 

Sincerely

Mike Redding

Park Operations

[+Schtzschndr]

Yes this will just about kill geocaching in Pennsylvania for me. I'm not going to spend my time in suburban parks and parking lots.

 

You don't have to spend your time in either of those places....this covers FORESTRY grounds, had nothing to do with State Game Lands. From what I have seen or experienced, there is alot more caches on State Game Lands than Forestry grounds due to the fact that they didn't need to be approved. I could be wrong, but it doesn't kill geocaching in PA.

 

Are you sure about that? Because we were just about to place a cache on State Game Lands when I stumbled across this discussion, and now we're holding off until we know for sure. I have e-mailed the Game Commission and (of course) received no reply.

[+Klatch]

Yes this will just about kill geocaching in Pennsylvania for me. I'm not going to spend my time in suburban parks and parking lots.

 

You don't have to spend your time in either of those places....this covers FORESTRY grounds, had nothing to do with State Game Lands. From what I have seen or experienced, there is alot more caches on State Game Lands than Forestry grounds due to the fact that they didn't need to be approved. I could be wrong, but it doesn't kill geocaching in PA.

 

Are you sure about that? Because we were just about to place a cache on State Game Lands when I stumbled across this discussion, and now we're holding off until we know for sure. I have e-mailed the Game Commission and (of course) received no reply.

The fee is for State Parks only. State Forests and Game Lands are not charging the fee at this time. See my post number 12.

[+Cardinal Red]

....this covers FORESTRY grounds, had nothing to do with State Game Lands.

Are you sure about that? Because we were just about to place a cache on State Game Lands when I stumbled across this discussion, and now we're holding off until we know for sure. I have e-mailed the Game Commission and (of course) received no reply.

Pennsylvania State Game Lands are under the control of the Pennsylvania Game Commission. Don't let a PA DCNR fee issue scare you away from a Game Land hide. They are nearly as different as night and day.

[+whistler & co.]

Oh the irony! I received my email issue of the DCNR newsletter (called "Resource") today, and it contained the following item:

 

Sites needed for new South Mountain GeoTrail

A regional nonprofit is asking residents of South Central PA to nominate their favorite places in the South Mountain region for a new adventure sport trail with a high-tech twist.

 

The Capital Resource Conservation and Development (Capital RC&D) Area Council, in collaboration with the South Mountain Partnership, will inventory and connect these sites by creating the South Mountain GeoTrail: a collection of geocache sites that help both residents and visitors to explore the area and learn more about its unique attractions.

 

Sites for consideration along the South Mountain GeoTrail should have a good spot to hide a cache, and should represent the South Mountain region. They can be easy or difficult to access, since the chosen sites will represent a range of difficulty levels.

 

Geocaching is an outdoor adventure sport in which the participants use a Global Positioning System (GPS) to locate hidden containers, called “caches.” A typical cache is a small waterproof container that holds a logbook and trinkets for participants to trade. To nominate a site or to find more information on geocaching in the South Mountain region, go here or call (717) 241-4361. Funding for this project is provided by the South Mountain Partnership through a grant from DCNR.

 

They are charging a fee for hiding a cache on their property, but they are actively promoting caching? Doesn't make sense!

[+edscott]

As long as they are on State Forest and not State Park lands there is no fee.. of course it may end up on a logging truck on it's way to the mill, but that's another issue.....

Edited June 24, 2010 by edscott