Help needed to override Reviewer(s)

[+Driddy]

Wiseguy: Thanks for educating me a bit about what the guidelines really say; I admit that I was trotting out an argument (cache confusion) that I've seen made by others. "The ultimate goals of the saturation guideline are to encourage you to seek out new places to hide caches rather than putting them in areas where caches already exist" -- this is another reason I wish that reviewers were encouraged to exercise more discretion when approving caches. I, for one, would have to question whether LPCs placed 0.1 mile apart in the parking lot of a big box store or similar location are adhering to that spirit and perhaps reviewers should be allowed to deny them. And yes, I have one set of caches (not LPCs) in a small park that some might say are in violation of the spirit of the guideline.

[+kunarion]

Is it possible to allow a cache to be published and let members decide it fate? If members who find it (or don't) feel it's location is detrimental to the game, then I would remove it but give them the chance to explore and report on it.

You could make it a "Travel Bug", post the coordinates, and invite comments. Or you could just post the coords someplace, or email the GZ to some local cachers or list it on another cache website. If you know some veteran cachers in your area, they might have a suggestion of where you could place it. And you could offer the whole container to cachers (say, in a fund-raiser at a caching event), where it might be placed somewhere on the planet that you'd never have been able to do yourself. But unless it is allowed to be listed, it doesn't count as a "Find" on geocaching.com.

 

If I were doing something like this, I'd scour the area for another spot that meets the guidelines. Maybe I'll eventually find an even better place for the clever container, have an improved design ready to go, and let people have fun trying to find it. Sometimes, it's worth the wait.

Edited January 15, 2011 by kunarion

[+BBDawg]

I did forget to tell everyone, even the reviewers, that before I placed the cache I emailed Geocaching.com General Inquiries and received the following approval (for the idea, not approval for publishing) -

 

quote:

Hi Randy,

Having a cache outside the restaurant and putting coupons in the cache is fine. You will want to make sure that the cache name and cache description do not refer to the cafe. The cache itself can not be commercial. Your reviewer should be able to help you with any small issues you might run into such as distance from another cache and they will double check the description and name to make sure it is not commercial.

Best Regards,

Jessica

endquote

 

I fully explained the cache to the support person prior to finalizing the cache build and used that response as my "go ahead" to submit the cache publishing request. I also explained my distance issue in the original "notes to the reviewer" (although I think, the original reviewer felt I was trying to cheat on the original distance I mentioned)

 

PLEASE DO NOT THINK I BELIEVE MY ORIGNAL REVIEWER NOR ANYONE ON THE REVIEW COMMITTEE HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG! THEY DID NOT! They followed the "guidelines" - I was asking for an exception to the guidelines.

(and Yes, I was speaking loudly, because that is an important issue, these guys/gals are great! and I appreciate their efforts)

 

Because of what I felt were special circumstances, I was asking for an exception. (My Fault - period)

 

On the issue of contacting the other CO, I absolutely do not feel it is appropriate for me to ask someone (anyone) to move, remove or archive their cache. (that is just me)

 

I also do not feel it is appropriate to "game or try to beat the system" by using trickery to accomplish my proposal (making it part of someone else's cache). The exception should stand on its own merit.

 

Finally, I do not believe this is the only cache site around, there are ton's of places locally, that is NOT the issue. We have been looking for months to find just the right spot to do something unique (like this particular cache box I built).

I was having lunch at this cafe when the thought hit me after seeing this unique spot from inside the cafe and I approached the cafe owner (who had never heard of geocaching). I printed out some of the Ceacaching.com information a few days later and left it with him to learn a little about us, then before I committed anything to him, I contacted Geocaching.com to investigate the possibility.

 

The cafe owner was not and is not asking that the cache be place where it is, and Yes he will be glad to give me the "sandwich" coupons that I can place elsewhere (he seems to be a terrific guy). I wanted this cache to be placed where I discovered the spot and asked for his permission. No where on or in the cache does it refer to the cafe except to bring the FTF prize into the cafe to get a drink, chips and sandwhich of their choice.

 

We have not even placed any other prizes in the cache yet, it was just going to be a nice prize cache. In any case, no one would ever have to go inside the cafe unless they wanted to partake of the free sandwich..

 

I still believe the guidelines should allow for special or different circumstances, not just physical limitations, but any situation where the benefit will be in the favor of the Cache Hunters, as well, I believe a system where a questionable cache can be, at least, temporarily published and allow "on the spot" Cache Hunters to determine if it should stay or be removed.. Again, this would be a Win Win solution in the future (IMHO).

Thanks

Randy

[+StarBrand]

I very much appreciate your attitude and willingness to learn.

 

However, I am sure you can appreciate the thought that exceptions (even to guidelines) should be, by thier very nature, very rare and require some form of very unusual circumstances. If exceptions were quite common than the guideline would be fairly useless. As stated in my post above - I have seen quite a few exceptions over the years but the circumstances were fairly unique. You should try and view virtually all of the guidelines that way and getting caches published will go smoothly.

[+kunarion]

On the issue of contacting the other CO, I absolutely do not feel it is appropriate for me to ask someone (anyone) to move, remove or archive their cache. (that is just me)

FWIW, if someone approached me with an idea for the coolest cache hide in the world, asking if I'd move or archive mine to make room for it, and if it's truly amazing, I'm sure I'd go along with the idea.

[+Markwell]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using the location as a virtual stage to a multi-cache. Virtual stages do not need to adhere to the saturation guideline. Start the cache somewhere else which points them to the cafe where there's a piece of "coded information" that they can gather, walk in to the restaurant and get the sandwich (if they like) and then go sign a logbook somewhere else.

 

This would not be in violation of the saturation guideline - although watch out for the solicitation portion.

[+BBDawg]

I very much appreciate your attitude and willingness to learn.

 

However, I am sure you can appreciate the thought that exceptions (even to guidelines) should be, by thier very nature, very rare and require some form of very unusual circumstances. If exceptions were quite common than the guideline would be fairly useless. As stated in my post above - I have seen quite a few exceptions over the years but the circumstances were fairly unique. You should try and view virtually all of the guidelines that way and getting caches published will go smoothly.

 

I have no problems with placing future caches (well, unless I get hit again with the "perfect cache spot" again ). I do however feel there is a significant difference to rules and regulations versus guidelines. If you want it hard over make it a rule - no exceptions. If you are going to allow exceptions, make it a guideline and be open minded about it.

I like the way the Customer Service Rep for Geocaching.com answered my initial questions (Your reviewer should be able to help you with any small issues you might run into such as distance from another cache) - YEP, a SMALL issue, Not a Cache Killer issue..

Oh Well, What is done is done..

 

Seems to be a lot of great folks here and I'm proud to be part of it..

Randy

[+BBDawg]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using the location as a virtual stage to a multi-cache. Virtual stages do not need to adhere to the saturation guideline. Start the cache somewhere else which points them to the cafe where there's a piece of "coded information" that they can gather, walk in to the restaurant and get the sandwich (if they like) and then go sign a logbook somewhere else.

 

This would not be in violation of the saturation guideline - although watch out for the solicitation portion.

 

Well,

You might have just solved my delima. The only problem with this is that my idea of a cache is like, hidden in plain sight and that would mean three in a row and nobody would ever find the end :D.

Now I need to rethink this and my approach!

 

Thanks for the idea, will let you know what I come up with!

Randy

[+wimseyguy]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using the location as a virtual stage to a multi-cache. Virtual stages do not need to adhere to the saturation guideline. Start the cache somewhere else which points them to the cafe where there's a piece of "coded information" that they can gather, walk in to the restaurant and get the sandwich (if they like) and then go sign a logbook somewhere else.

 

This would not be in violation of the saturation guideline - although watch out for the solicitation portion.

 

Someone did.

Someone even cited your post as the correct interpretation of the guidelines.

[+BBDawg]

 

Someone did.

Someone even cited your post as the correct interpretation of the guidelines.

Wimseyguy, You are correct and I apologize to you. I got confused when you mentioned moving my cache and using only building numbers (or such) at the cafe location to redirect to the actual cache location. I just wasn't thinking along the same line until Markwell clarified it for me. I just missed the connection.

 

So Sir, I Thank You as well!!

 

Randy

[+geohatter]

I think the situation described by the OP is a great example of the need for gc.com to give reviewers more flexibility and discretion in implementing the saturation guidelines.

 

We have a great deal flexibility and discretion when it comes to the saturation guideline. I know I have published caches that were less than 528 ft from another cache. It all depends on the circumstances. While I agree that guidelines are not rules, but there is a limit to how far you can push them.

 

Unfortunately, in the OP's case, 277ft would be pushing it too far without a canyon or river with no direct route across(or some other impassable boundary).

 

I have to echo the comments from my colleagues regarding the OP's conduct in this matter. Thank you for being so polite and keeping it together. I have seen people on the forums explode for far less.

 

Please don't be disheartened by your experience and keep looking for that great spot to hide a cache.

 

Paul

Geohatter

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

[+TerraViators]

Be careful...IMO, Groundspeak does not like to be questioned in any manner, and will pull the suspension trigger faster than you can disagree.

[+Wadcutter]

BBDawg didn't mention his real intent for placing the cache at that specific location until late in the discussion. His buddy who runs the sandwich place wants people to come into his business where he will give them a free sandwich. What about a free drink, chips, dessert, etc? Or does his generosity extend to free meals for everyone? If I find the cache today and get my free sandwich can I come in again tomorrow to log an additional find and get another free sandwich? And the next day can I stop by to drop off a TB and get another free sandwich? How many free sandwiches can I get stopping by to find this cache? This sounds like not only a violation for being too close to another cache but more a violation of a commercial cache. The purpose is to drum up business for a commercial interprise. Oh wow! What a "special" cache that can't be placed anywhere else.

[+popokiiti]

Can you make it a multi? Stage 1 being the requisite 528 feet (or more) away, with your neat spot as stage 2. That's what we did - found a great spot for the cache to celebrate my Canadian Citizenship, but we knew there was going to be a proximity issue if we didn't make it a multi. It was approved very quickly.

I do not think there should be an overriding of the reviewers decision. Once it is done for one person, a precedent is set. Go with a multi, and see how that works............

[+dfx]

I do not think there should be an overriding of the reviewers decision. Once it is done for one person, a precedent is set.

 

only that the guidelines explicitly say that there is no precedent for placing caches.

 

i disagree with the first part of your statement: reviewers don't make the rules, they just (try to) execute them. they're just people too, so they can be wrong.

Edited January 16, 2011 by dfx

[+BBDawg]

BBDawg didn't mention his real intent for placing the cache at that specific location until late in the discussion. His buddy who runs the sandwich place wants people to come into his business where he will give them a free sandwich. What about a free drink, chips, dessert, etc? Or does his generosity extend to free meals for everyone? If I find the cache today and get my free sandwich can I come in again tomorrow to log an additional find and get another free sandwich? And the next day can I stop by to drop off a TB and get another free sandwich? How many free sandwiches can I get stopping by to find this cache? This sounds like not only a violation for being too close to another cache but more a violation of a commercial cache. The purpose is to drum up business for a commercial interprise. Oh wow! What a "special" cache that can't be placed anywhere else.

 

Wow Wadcutter you have quite the complicated mind. Fortunately (for the purpose of this discussion only) the owner of the cafe, where I located the cache, is not a friend of mine (yet) but seems to be a real nice guy. I plan to visit his cafe often (cache or not) but so far I have only been in his shop 5 times and it was I who advanced the issue of geocaching, etc, etc, etc - as I stated earlier. Also, I didn't even mention the sandwich gift issue here until AFTER you guys totally did not support my request and I gave up the fight. I was just describing how this cache came together and the theme tie-in and why THIS Cache would not work at another location.

 

BUT, based on the ideas you guys suggested for me, once I get this going (and after the FTF) the gift will be limited to one per person one time (the person signing the log). I feel the honesty of the Geocaching.com members has proven itself over the years and there seems to be little abuse of guidelines and common sense so I have little concern over someone lying to get a free sandwich.. There is NO guarantee for any "sandwiches" and it is not even mentioned ANYWHERE Or wasn't until this forum, except to the Geocaching.com Customer Service Rep, as also stated previously. Now, once someone finds the cache, if a free sandwich certificate or note offering one, is there - What would be wrong with that??? BTW, in the cache description, I stated that there might be something there and if You don't want it, please leave if for someone who might want to use it.

 

Thanks for your input Wadcutter and I hope you can see this for what it is and no more. I am not as devious as you might imagine.

 

Randy

[+tozainamboku]

Be careful...IMO, Groundspeak does not like to be questioned in any manner, and will pull the suspension trigger faster than you can disagree.

Of all the times I've been suspended it was never for disagreeing with Groundspeak or even for saying that I thought a reviewer made a mistake. I have been suspended for saying Groundspeak was lazy because they wouldn't post a clarification to a guideline and once when a moderator interpreted what I said as implying that reviewers play favorites, but never for disagreeing. IMO, Groundspeak doesn't mind being questioned about the guideline or how they should be interpreted. What they (or at least the forum moderators) care about is that you follow the guidelines for using the forums. That means treating everyone with courtesy and respect.

 

For most of this thread I have been impressed by both the OP and those that responded. Often people who come in to ask for a reviewer ruling to be overturned come in feeling so wronged that they resort to name calling and usually the community responds back in kind. These threads are often train wrecks. I will generally cut a little slack for the person whose cache was denied. It is understandable that they are upset that their cache wasn't approved and being unaware of the forum dynamics they are often taken aback when nobody agrees with them. (My last suspension was when in pointing out how predictable this is, I made a comment that could be construed as indicating that reviewers are influenced by whether someone supports them in the forums or not). The OP in this case posted a calm and courteous request to understand better the reasons for the guidelines and the reviewers' decision, and because of this they got some very good responses from the community. While it was still predictable that nobody was going to say this cache deserves an exception from the saturation guidelines, at least we had people trying to suggest ways this cache could still be hidden.

[knowschad]

Be careful...IMO, Groundspeak does not like to be questioned in any manner, and will pull the suspension trigger faster than you can disagree.

Working pretty hard to prove yourself right, aren't you?

[+Markwell]

 

Someone did.

Someone even cited your post as the correct interpretation of the guidelines.

Wimseyguy, You are correct and I apologize to you. I got confused when you mentioned moving my cache and using only building numbers (or such) at the cafe location to redirect to the actual cache location. I just wasn't thinking along the same line until Markwell clarified it for me. I just missed the connection.

 

So Sir, I Thank You as well!!

 

Randy

Sorry about that!!!

[+mtn-man]

Be careful...IMO, Groundspeak does not like to be questioned in any manner, and will pull the suspension trigger faster than you can disagree.

Of all the times I've been suspended it was never for disagreeing with Groundspeak or even for saying that I thought a reviewer made a mistake. I have been suspended for saying Groundspeak was lazy because they wouldn't post a clarification to a guideline and once when a moderator interpreted what I said as implying that reviewers play favorites, but never for disagreeing. IMO, Groundspeak doesn't mind being questioned about the guideline or how they should be interpreted. What they (or at least the forum moderators) care about is that you follow the guidelines for using the forums. That means treating everyone with courtesy and respect.

Thank you. Well said Toz. Disagreeing is fine. Coming into a topic that is going well and attempting to derail it isn't.

 

For most of this thread I have been impressed by both the OP and those that responded.

Indeed. Quite a nice one. I hope some of the suggestions work out for the OP.

[+narcissa]

Once it is done for one person, a precedent is set.

 

The guidelines directly address this:

 

"First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache."

 

Note that when you publish a geocache, you must check off a box confirming that you have read and understand the cache listing guidelines. Since you have a cache published, it strikes me as odd that you would raise the issue of a precedent since the issue is addressed, in bold, in the second paragraph of the guidelines.

[+KI4HLW]

On the issue of contacting the other CO, I absolutely do not feel it is appropriate for me to ask someone (anyone) to move, remove or archive their cache. (that is just me)

FWIW, if someone approached me with an idea for the coolest cache hide in the world, asking if I'd move or archive mine to make room for it, and if it's truly amazing, I'm sure I'd go along with the idea.

I also brought this up with some fellow cachers after posting the suggestion originally, one especially who is our local P&G maker, and not a single one would not have been willing to archive their cache for such a situation, P&Gs are for usually for locals looking for a quick fix... and the COs who make them usually do it because they lack the time for a thought out cache, the tend to have a very limited "hot period" after which they see very few logs, Almost all would be happy to give up the spot to someone who wants to put out a well thought out cache with bigger appeal. The one in paticular even anounces at our monthly breakfast get together an area of caches he plans to retire so we have time to plan some thought out caches to fill it.

[+Wadcutter]

Wow Wadcutter you have quite the complicated mind. Fortunately (for the purpose of this discussion only) the owner of the cafe, where I located the cache, is not a friend of mine (yet) but seems to be a real nice guy.

I just read your words. Call him acquaintance, friend, or whatever, you're the guy who met the guy struck up the conversation and proposed bringing people into his business. Sounds like a new friend you've just met. Call it whatever you want but you're asking Geocaching.Com to send customers to your new found friend's business. Commerical cache.

 

I plan to visit his cafe often (cache or not) but so far I have only been in his shop 5 times and it was I who advanced the issue of geocaching, etc, etc, etc - as I stated earlier. Also, I didn't even mention the sandwich gift issue here until AFTER you guys totally did not support my request and I gave up the fight. I was just describing how this cache came together and the theme tie-in and why THIS Cache would not work at another location.

Which is exactly my point. You knew from the beginning when you posted your plea for help that the commerical aspect was part of the cache but you "neglected" to mention it until disagreeing with everyone just how "great" your cache is and everyone still said "no go". Then you decided to post another missive and let the commercial aspect slip out.

 

BUT, based on the ideas you guys suggested for me, once I get this going (and after the FTF) the gift will be limited to one per person one time (the person signing the log).

So you still are skirting the commercial aspect. What you are proposing is to bring people into the guy's business, he gives them a free sandwich which usually results in someone buying additional items to complete a meal. Your proposal to the business owner was to promote his business.

 

Now, once someone finds the cache, if a free sandwich certificate or note offering one, is there - What would be wrong with that???

You're promoting someone's business. Not only can't you accept the guidelines of your cache being too close to another cache but you also want to ignore the commercial ban on caching. Aren't you just special?

 

Thanks for your input Wadcutter and I hope you can see this for what it is and no more. I am not as devious as you might imagine.

Devious? No. You just don't want to follow the guidelines and fail to accept your cache for what it really is. The rules don't apply to you, right? If you don't like the rules, the find a way to circumvent them. What an example you set for your grandkids.

[+J the Goat]

Wow Wadcutter you have quite the complicated mind. Fortunately (for the purpose of this discussion only) the owner of the cafe, where I located the cache, is not a friend of mine (yet) but seems to be a real nice guy.

I just read your words. Call him acquaintance, friend, or whatever, you're the guy who met the guy struck up the conversation and proposed bringing people into his business. Sounds like a new friend you've just met. Call it whatever you want but you're asking Geocaching.Com to send customers to your new found friend's business. Commerical cache.

 

I plan to visit his cafe often (cache or not) but so far I have only been in his shop 5 times and it was I who advanced the issue of geocaching, etc, etc, etc - as I stated earlier. Also, I didn't even mention the sandwich gift issue here until AFTER you guys totally did not support my request and I gave up the fight. I was just describing how this cache came together and the theme tie-in and why THIS Cache would not work at another location.

Which is exactly my point. You knew from the beginning when you posted your plea for help that the commerical aspect was part of the cache but you "neglected" to mention it until disagreeing with everyone just how "great" your cache is and everyone still said "no go". Then you decided to post another missive and let the commercial aspect slip out.

 

BUT, based on the ideas you guys suggested for me, once I get this going (and after the FTF) the gift will be limited to one per person one time (the person signing the log).

So you still are skirting the commercial aspect. What you are proposing is to bring people into the guy's business, he gives them a free sandwich which usually results in someone buying additional items to complete a meal. Your proposal to the business owner was to promote his business.

 

Now, once someone finds the cache, if a free sandwich certificate or note offering one, is there - What would be wrong with that???

You're promoting someone's business. Not only can't you accept the guidelines of your cache being too close to another cache but you also want to ignore the commercial ban on caching. Aren't you just special?

 

Thanks for your input Wadcutter and I hope you can see this for what it is and no more. I am not as devious as you might imagine.

Devious? No. You just don't want to follow the guidelines and fail to accept your cache for what it really is. The rules don't apply to you, right? If you don't like the rules, the find a way to circumvent them. What an example you set for your grandkids.

 

Completely out of line. Please go find fault with everything somewhere else.

[+addisonbr]

Once it is done for one person, a precedent is set.

The guidelines directly address this:

 

"First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches.

True from a legal-ish standpoint. Sadly, there is a healthy precedent for people going apecrap-crazy in the forums when guidelines are interpreted differently for other cachers than for them. I can understand a bias for consistency, even if the rulings don't establish a functional precedent.

[+addisonbr]

[snip]

I couldn't agree with this post less. Other than the proximity issue, I see no guideline violation with this cache. And I have no issue with how it was presented in these forums.

 

But most importantly, I certainly see absolutely no reason to make snide comments to the CO or to impunge his character.

[+GeoGeeBee]

Other than the proximity issue, I see no guideline violation with this cache.

 

Really? You don't think "visit this cache and get a free sandwich" qualifies as a commercial cache?

[+addisonbr]

Really? You don't think "visit this cache and get a free sandwich" qualifies as a commercial cache?

If the business is advertised on the cache page, yes it would qualify as a commercial cache. But just putting in coupons for free stuff in the cache container... I don't consider that a commercial cache. He never says "Visit this cache and get a free sandwich from Bob's Sandwich Shop". I don't think he even mentions that there are prizes for the finders at all, which would be a condition that I repeatedly violate.

 

I put coupons and gift cards in my caches all the time. For a clock-themed puzzle I have given out gift cards for a watch store, for a subway-themed puzzle I have given out pre-loaded Metrocards, for a Seinfeld-themed cache I've given out coupons redeemable nearby for free Seinfeld DVDs and books about TV shows shot in New York, and I know I've left book store gift cards for the first few finders in several of my caches. In none of those cases were the businesses mentioned on the cache page (although the Metrocards are implicit); the cache pages now are the same as when they were submitted and subject to full reviewer oversight.

 

Usually I only include gift cards for the first 3 or so finders, but I don't have a problem with someone who does it for the first infinity finders.

 

And I think it's most certainly worth noting that before even placing the cache, the CO contacted Groundspeak, explained everything clearly and received a thumbs-up that there was no problem with his plan. That's exactly how cachers are supposed to handle the situation whenever there is even a question of bumping up against a guideline - ask the question first, rather than try to slip it in and hope nobody notices.

[+BBDawg]

Possibly some of you missed my earlier post where I told everyone I sought out and obtained permission/clarification of the commercial issue before I did anything on this cache. I'll repeat it below in hopes to end this aspect of the issue. If you further disagree with Groundspeak or Geocaching.com then opening up another thread might be in order.

 

I do take issue with someone saying:

Quote - The rules don't apply to you, right? If you don't like the rules, the find a way to circumvent them. What an example you set for your grandkids.

endquote -

IMHO this this was a very cheap shot and an uncalled for personal attack.. I can see why others may be afraid to post their questions on this forum.

 

Here (again) is the result from first contact with Geocachng.com on this proposed cache: (You may or may not agree with their answer but this is the answer I received)

*************************** reprint from earlier post +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I did forget to tell everyone, even the reviewers, that before I placed the cache I emailed Geocaching.com General Inquiries and received the following approval (for the idea, not approval for publishing) -

 

quote:

Hi Randy,

Having a cache outside the restaurant and putting coupons in the cache is fine. You will want to make sure that the cache name and cache description do not refer to the cafe. The cache itself can not be commercial. Your reviewer should be able to help you with any small issues you might run into such as distance from another cache and they will double check the description and name to make sure it is not commercial.

Best Regards,

Jessica

endquote

**************************************************************************************************

 

I think any further discussion on the "commercial" aspect should be opened in a new thread as it is way off topic for my original question/request.

 

I asked this forum to respond to my situation and You have done so with mostly great respect and help. Some of you proposed ways around the issue and I really appreciate those answers. ALSO, I gained a lot of positive insight into the feelings of fellow geocachers which was invaluable for me and any newbie in this sport.

 

You are collectively a great group of people who I hope to remain a part of for some time to come..

 

I got what I needed from this topic and must now get busy on my fix..

Thanks Again to ALL!

Randy

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Question answered. Closing before it goes any further downhill.