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Correcting English (etiquette)


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What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct and/or emailing corrected versions of English language cache descriptions to COs? Would it piss them off?

 

Depends on how the offer was made. Some CO's would graciously accept, I suspect the majority would be pissed off though. Especially if they were native English speakers - who are often the worst offenders, with cache descriptions like this:

 

"Your looking for a small tupaware box. Its not to difficult to find."

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What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct and/or emailing corrected versions of English language cache descriptions to COs? Would it piss them off?

 

I have talked with one CO where there was an observation by several cachers about the state of the text... the CO agreed that it could be 'repaired' and that I was welcome to suggest what might be done by email... I simply ran THEIR text thru a spell checker (WORD) then did some minor fixes where the context demanded it... but no major changes at all... that text and a highlighted copy of the original was emailed, along with a note about how and who thought it would benefit such a worthy cache. To my knowledge it has never been changed, and I never insisted on it... perhaps it was a time or lack of interest thing. It still would be a good thing to do, but it is not my cache to decide either way. BUT... private friendly contact is the route to go in any event... and only offer or suggest, not demand. That way you might affect change. (did I get that correct?)

 

Doug 7rxc

Edited by 7rxc
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What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct and/or emailing corrected versions of English language cache descriptions to COs? Would it piss them off?

 

Maybe it would be better if you attended one or two local geocaching events in Prague to get to know some of the local cachers and then make the offer of help to any who might appreciate it. Or is there a local forum where you could post your offer?

 

MrsB

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What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct and/or emailing corrected versions of English language cache descriptions to COs? Would it piss them off?

 

Ahhhhh..... Occupation: English Teacher

 

When you attend a party and one of the other guests that you are in a conversation with makes a grammatical faux pas, do you correct them? Of course not.

 

What you might do is to put an offer in your profile to proofread cache pages. I can't see anything wrong with that.

 

 

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In the case of a friend or acquaintance I might drop them a note saying "I think you might have meant to say..."

 

The most troubling thing that I encounter is the use of texting shortcuts and abbreviations and the associated grammatical errors. I suspect this happens in many languages and friends in the education field tell me that many students are incapable of writing grammatically correct sentences.

 

wtevr

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I personally wouldn't unless I knew the CO. I would presume, although could be wrong, that 80% of people would be annoyed by that. In the end, it doesn't matter that much. That being said, if someone offered a correction to one of my caches, I would correct it. Especially if it was a speeling mistake.

 

One point though, don't presume to correct a puzzle cache. The speeling mistakes or bad grammar might be intentional!

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What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct...

 

Doug 7rxc

Now that there's funny, I don't care who y'ar!

 

I once got a note from a fellow cacher pointing out a misspelled word in the title of a cache that had just been published. I appreciated the chance to correct it before it had been out very long.

 

I would never say anything about a cache page that contained so many grammatical and spelling errors that it was obviously poor writing skills, not just a typo here and there. I think most people with poor language skills probably know it, and I'm glad they made the effort to get a hide published.

To point out the mistakes instead of just appreciating the cache might discourage them from placing more.

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Do you really want to be that person? I notice a lot of mistakes, but I almost never say anything. Most people don't like to be corrected and are insulted when you correct their grammar or English.

 

I would agree with others. Go to events and let them know that you are an English teacher and that you are more than willing to help them perfect their English.

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Wow - a lot of hostile responses...no, I mean things like this: "And finally a day succeeded to make a no favorable contract for being able itself to free of they. But hardly they tried to move the bags….outside mouses from all the angles that seemed cats… were quite an army." - I really liked the cache and thought it was a shame that the story was so garbled. As for not appreciating the effort made by non-native speakers, quite the opposite, yet if I were writing in another language I'd appreciate some help. Writing in another language can be difficult, especially if you are trying to sound conversational. English is a rich language with the largest vocabulary in the world and most people who learn it like playing around with and exploring it's vastness - yet the word order often throws them and idioms can be a nightmare. In addition, I thought of this because I have been approached a few times now (privately) by cachers who have asked me to help clean up their English listings and been happy to do so. No one is suggesting doing anything publicly, ridiculing anyone or demanding anything - simply helping clean up and clarify. Finally, I don't see how many finds I have or how long I have been a member is relevant to language issues. That all said, I like the idea of attending events and putting something on my profile. Thanks for the advice. :rolleyes: And yes, I DO correct people's English at parties, so mynahhh :anitongue: ; the only people who get pissy about it are Americans. @Doug 7rxc - yes, "affect" is the verb. FYI - "is" is the correct form with the singular subject "community". Just sayin'.... :)

Edited by memefactory
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What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct and/or emailing corrected versions of English language cache descriptions to COs? Would it piss them off?

 

American English? British English? Australian English? Or are you only going to limit yourself to caches in your own country?

 

I've published two puzzle caches that rely on errors in speeeling, punc-chew-ation and gramer to get the co-ords. It might irritate some people to read them - but they're the people who usually manage to solve them :)

 

Edited to corrupt grammer and spelling ;)

Edited by keehotee
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Having graduated as an English major, I can understand the frustrations of the OP. However, I just don't think it's worth the trouble. Sure, help those who ask for it. But don't offer help to those who don't. That's irritating, and as an English teacher, you probably already know this. :)

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My first reaction to your question was "ugh, no, that's rather rude, and would not be well-received at all!" But reading your second post, I see that you are specifically talking about listings that have obviously been translated to English from another language. That's a little different than sending someone a list of their spelling and punctuation errors. People here have said frequently that translation tools like Google translate often mangle things badly. Maybe some of these mangled cache pages that you are seeing were done that way--the CO may not even realize that it doesn't make sense. I personally don't see the harm in sending a friendly e-mail offering your help when it's obviously a translation issue, and not simply nit-picky stuff.

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if its a friend of mine or a new cache of someone I think would not mind knowing of a spelling or grammar mistake, I would tell them privately but not belabor it. Those kind of things annoy me to see them, but I know many folks get annoyed to be told about it, especially publicly. If its a cache that has been around a while, most likely someone has told them by now, so I would just ignore it.

 

course, at least a cache page can be fixed, unlike this recent forum topic point... "total lose of commom sense" (double mistake)

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If i see a cache page with a obvious typo on it. Like "TARVEL bug" or "its in a BUKCET" i might just shoot the CO a email with "typo in your cache page FYI" and if they fix it, fine, if not then i dont care.

They might write back with "thanks" or "spelling was intentional" or not respond at all. No biggie.

 

Now for example it was a native french speaker using google translate to make an english cache page, i can see how it could be botched up.

 

Google translate is enought o get the rough idea of something but look at this..

 

Original text:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

The above text translated to another language and back to English with an online translator.

 

We people the United States, to form the more advanced connection, to establish justice, to ensure domestic tranquillity make, to ensure for the common defense, to increase general welfare and to ensure the blessings of freedom to ourselves and our posterity, predetermine and you will establish this constitution for connected [shtatyy] Of [amerikii].

 

Close but no cigar.

Edited by shadowmib
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Took thirty posts before anyone realized what the OP meant. Read some caches in another country. Some have it in German and English. Others are in French and also English on the cache page. Those are the pages he would like to help the co with. Not dumb Americans and their inability to spell. Maybe he needs to help people in the forum comprehend what they read. :D

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Took thirty posts before anyone realized what the OP meant. Read some caches in another country. Some have it in German and English. Others are in French and also English on the cache page. Those are the pages he would like to help the co with. Not dumb Americans and their inability to spell. Maybe he needs to help people in the forum comprehend what they read. :D

Look at the OP and see if you do any better than we did? The only clue any of us had at that point as to what he meant was by doing detective work based on his profile. I think we did pretty well, considering the information that we had at the time. It took you thirty posts to reply. I wish that you were there in post #2 to set us all straight.

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Took thirty posts before anyone realized what the OP meant. Read some caches in another country. Some have it in German and English. Others are in French and also English on the cache page. Those are the pages he would like to help the co with. Not dumb Americans and their inability to spell. Maybe he needs to help people in the forum comprehend what they read. :D

 

The OP didn't make it clear that he was talking about translations to English until post #21. If he had been a little clearer in post #1, he might have gotten some different responses.

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I make enough typos myself not to be to critical of another,. But one time in the UK I saw a cache that looked as if it had been fed through a babelfish translation engine. So I merely cut and pasted it with my suggested revisions as a helpful contribution. The CO thanked me but did not use it the last I saw. I guess maybe I should have not done it - I was able to figure out the original intent despite the on-line translation engine, so I should have just assumed others would have done the same. I probably won't do so again.

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Since geocaching is international just which "english" do you feel it must be edited to? British English, Canadian English, American English, Australian English... etc etc. If we pick American English will we use west coast, east coast, southern or hawaiian local phrases, and colorful expressions? If the person says bonnet because they live in the UK will you make it say hood? :smile:

 

Then there is the fact that some people who write their cache pages don't even speak any form of english. Do we now force them to learn your favorite version of english in order to post? Do all the monitors and kind people approving the caches need think in the mind set of a single language. :grin:

 

I don't know. I personally don't think we should be so controlling towards others. I think if we wish to understand we should make and effort to understand. If we want others to understand us we should make an effort to be understood better by others. Sorry, I just get riled-up with the need for sameness. :3

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Took thirty posts before anyone realized what the OP meant. Read some caches in another country. Some have it in German and English. Others are in French and also English on the cache page. Those are the pages he would like to help the co with. Not dumb Americans and their inability to spell. Maybe he needs to help people in the forum comprehend what they read. :D

 

Hey! I resent that remark! I understood exactly what the situation was and replied with my suggestion (post #11) as to the best course of action, in my opinion. :P

 

*MrsB goes off muttering under her breath, to get her first mug of tea for the day*

 

:P

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Took thirty posts before anyone realized what the OP meant. Read some caches in another country. Some have it in German and English. Others are in French and also English on the cache page. Those are the pages he would like to help the co with. Not dumb Americans and their inability to spell. Maybe he needs to help people in the forum comprehend what they read. :D

 

The OP didn't make it clear that he was talking about translations to English until post #21. If he had been a little clearer in post #1, he might have gotten some different responses.

 

Actually, it was clear to me right from the beginning what he was talking about. His mistake might have been to be not aware of the fact that most writers in this subforum are from North America and expect most others to be from there as well (without eving checking in case of doubt).

 

I have encountered many cache descriptions with a poor English version where the English version was the only one. So translation might not always be the correct term - English texts produced by non native speakers of English might be more appropriate.

 

 

Cezanne

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This leaves a lot to personal interpretation.:

 

What is the community's thoughts on offering to correct and/or emailing corrected versions of English language cache descriptions to COs? Would it piss them off?

 

It's a rather unclear post. It sounds like the OP wants to go around, correcting cache pages that don't come up to his standards.

 

Whereas this sheds a different light on the subject:

 

In addition, I thought of this because I have been approached a few times now (privately) by cachers who have asked me to help clean up their English listings and been happy to do so.

 

And this can be interpreted as being rude and snotty:

And yes, I DO correct people's English at parties, so mynahhh :anitongue: ; the only people who get pissy about it are Americans. @Doug 7rxc - yes, "affect" is the verb. FYI - "is" is the correct form with the singular subject "community". Just sayin'.... :)

 

And I have no idea why the replies were interpreted as "hostile".

Wow - a lot of hostile responses...

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Wow - a lot of hostile responses...no, I mean things like this: "And finally a day succeeded... < Snip >... an army."

< Snip lots removed by 7rxc>

Thanks for the advice. :rolleyes:

And yes, I DO correct people's English at parties, so mynahhh :anitongue: ; the only people who get pissy about it are Americans. @Doug 7rxc - yes, "affect" is the verb. FYI - "is" is the correct form with the singular subject "community". Just sayin'.... :)

 

Hi. I sure hope you didn't find my bolding "is" as an insulting commentary. I was being just a bit mischievous at the time. The original text was fine by itself otherwise. It has been pointed out that perhaps it was related to translations. I don't find that is all that important to me. Many caches 'might' need some assistance. My example given was intended to show that I do feel that constructive criticism offered in a friendly manner, should be graciously accepted by the person it is offered to, but free of any obligation except to have it considered as such. I was one of several people advising a new cacher who really wanted to visit that cache since it had a connection to her family history. Several of the other people involved in getting her there (eventually successful) commented on the body of text. I offered to contact the owner since I had met her several times and was going to an event I knew she would be at. Like I said we talked about it then and I followed through with my advice. To take or leave, or start out again. No hard feelings either way. I'm not perfect either and accept that not everyone types well, operates the spell check features in a word processor (I don't know if the online one here is working yet, I cut and paste from Word for serious stuff) or has other limitations. Since I don't have even one hide yet, I can only be supportive of their efforts. I would certainly seek help with my limited French language skills and not be offended by such an offer.

 

Thanks for the confirmation. I really meant that query! I get confused because so many others do and insist THEY are correct. Same with "its" and "it's".

I'll let the other's suggestions stand on the other item. At first I thought it was someone else jumping on that as a result of my bolding it after the fact.

As far as touching up translator results. I imagine, based on my experiences, that it would be even harder if the person reading it as you posted it, had to do so by translating it into their language the same way, because they assumed the English form would get better results than from the original language (you pointed out English is very flexible). Do you think as I do that whichever language is the source, that the chosen wordings should be carefully selected based on being able to go through auto-translation well? That would be, avoiding slang or local idioms for example. I think that anyone that is doing a cache in tourist areas anywhere needs to consider this aspect, perhaps not always in areas less frequented by foreign travellers.

 

Doug 7rxc

From Elkford BC Canada

Edited by 7rxc
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Actually, it was clear to me right from the beginning what he was talking about. His mistake might have been to be not aware of the fact that most writers in this subforum are from North America and expect most others to be from there as well (without eving checking in case of doubt).

Cezanne

 

I don't expect everyone on this forum to be from North America. It was not clear to me that the OP was in a foreign country, and my original response reflects that. But my suggestion is still a good one. Bring it up at an event and offer your services there.

 

This thread is a PRIME example of how helpful it would be to have the location on the new forum like we did on the old one.

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Do you think as I do that whichever language is the source, that the chosen wordings should be carefully selected based on being able to go through auto-translation well?

 

I do not think that the aspect of auto-translation should play any role as auto-translations yield garbage anyway.

 

That would be, avoiding slang or local idioms for example.

 

I think that anyone that is doing a cache in tourist areas anywhere needs to consider this aspect, perhaps not always in areas less frequented by foreign travellers.

 

I do not agree. Providing a reasonable English version should suffice and is far better from my point of view than expecting the visitors of a cache to produce an automatic translation.

 

As the tourist issue is regarded, I think that the situation in Europe is different. There are many relatively small countries and many different languages. There are many cachers who regularly cache in more than one country and not just when are on holidays or business trips. Moreover, there are still many countries which are handled by reviewers who do not know the local language. In this setting it occurs relatively often that cachers whose English is poor try to come up with an English cache description. Among this target audience, I am convinced that many cachers would appreciate corrections of their English text. If one tries to correct texts in the native language of cachers, this typically ends with negative reactions regardless of in which country it takes place.

 

Cezanne

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FYI - "is" is the correct form with the singular subject "community". Just sayin'.... :)

 

Yes, this is correct. I think it would be fine to offer to help with the English of cache owners in the context the OP is talking about. If English is not one's native language, it *can* be difficult to convey a message in a conversational manner. I speak four languages myself, and I know that my grammar, spelling, syntax, etc are certainly lacking in all of them but French, which I have been speaking since childhood; and I would appreciate help if it were offered to me.

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I am reminded of the story someone told me about how his grandmother would return the thank you notes he had written her with the spelling and grammar corrections she had made. I'm sure that she thought she was being helpful. He, however, felt differently.

 

In the OP's case, though, I believe a tactfully written offer to help the cache owner would not be received badly. If I were the OP, I would start my email telling the cache owner how much I enjoyed doing their cache. Then, I would make my offer and wait to hear if the cache owner were interested before doing anything more.

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Bad Duck and a few others have hit the mark - I meant bad translations into English. As for "which English", I meant Standard English - both American and British being fine (though not mixed in a single entry). I also appreciate the clarification as to the tenor of some of the responses - and to clarify myself: NO, I did NOT mean correcting native speakers; I must ask who would ever even think such a thing? Anyway, I have already corrected a few for people and been warmly thanked for my efforts and, since I really like those caches, I am also happy. Everybody wins. I would also like to thank the smart-a** who sent me an anonymous email correcting some of the typos on my own cache listing - I actually hadn't noticed them so now it is all good.

Edited by memefactory
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I just got back from caching in Quebec City. I can tell you that google translate is not that good, especialy with Quebec French. Google translate (and all the other online translators) uses Perisian French. I used google translate to translate the cache pages. It was quite bad. I also used google translate to post bilingualy in all my found logs, but I suspect they are rather poor. I did warn the reader that it was google translate producing the French. Most of the locals can speak English anyway, I just did it to show that I was making an effort. I would love to have someone correct my French.

Edited by Andronicus
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