Problems with a Geocacher

[furshore]

We wanted to do the ET Highway back in March or April well we saw a posting by a Geocacher in Georgia that was interested in teaming up with someone so we contacted him. Fast forward we flew out in the first part of April and meet up with is Georgia Geocacher. We were going to spend a week together and cache Rt 66, Yuma and Searchlight since the ET Highway was discountinued. Well, we all agreed to share the expenses for the car/gas etc. Well, on the third day we were in Yuma driving on a dirt road in the bombing range (with permission). I was driving and rental car was in my name. I was following the tire marks on the dirt road when the Georgia Cacher said to turn that I was going out of the way. We traveled maybe 500 feet when we suddenly ended up in a irrigation ditch and damaged the rental car (suv). We got the suv out of the ditch and filled the insurance claims via cell phone and we were able to use the car. We did not take out the rental insurance because it clearly states that they do not cover any loss while driving on an unpaved road. Our deductible is $1000. The Geogia Cacher agreed to pay half of the deductible. Four days later when we returned to Las Vegas to fly home he told us that he would send us a check because he did not have the funds. Well after returning home we contacted him for the money and he ignored us. He finally called and said that he was not going to pay his half because his said the his insurance agent said that he had no responsiblity for the loss. Well, he agreed to pay half of all auto related expenses. He also promised to pay his half. He was the navigator and directed me into the ditch. Please don't suggest small claims court because we live in Florida and he lives in Georgia. We have nothing in writing...it was a verbal agreement. The purpose of the posting is to warn people about caching trips with stangers. We did check him out the best we could and everyone said we is ok. Any suggestions on what I should do from here? I realize I was driving and I am responsible but our share should have been $500 not the entire $1000. Consider yourself warned...not everyone is what you think they are. We have had nothing but great experiences with fellow cachers. This has not stopped us from caching with fellow cachers but only with people we know.

[+Chokecherry]

Unless I am close friends with someone I tend to not enter into any sort of financial agreements/splitting of expenses thing. Also if the car is in my name and falling under my insurance, someone else navigating or not, I make sure to not take that car anywhere that may damage that car as realistically then expenses then fall on me. I also tend to not beat on rental cars as they are not my personal property meaning I tend to stay on the paved roads unless I'm renting from an outfit that specializes in vehicles for more recreational use.

 

I'm not going to suggest small claims court. I'm also not going to suggest that you don't have fun with other cachers.

 

I'm going to suggest that you and others be a little more careful and not just blindly trust people because they happen to share a hobby.

[+pppingme]

So let me get this straight, YOU drove into a ditch that damaged a vehicle and you expect someone else to pay?

 

Regardless of "bad navigation instructions", you are driving, not him.

 

What if he told you to run a red light or speed and you got a ticket? Would you expect him to pay it? I doubt it, because you are in control of the vehicle, not him.

 

Even if you took him to court, you would never win. You alone were driving the vehicle and part of driving a vehicle is watching the road.

 

Since you were in a rental, you also broke your agreement with them. All rental agreements state that the vehicle is to be operated on roads only, no off-roading allowed. Its clear from the start that you have no regard for agreements, until they favor you.

[+mpilchfamily]

Bottom line don't do any business transactions without something in writing. In the end the caching trip was a business transaction.

[+StarBrand]

So let me get this straight, YOU drove into a ditch that damaged a vehicle and you expect someone else to pay?

 

Regardless of "bad navigation instructions", you are driving, not him.

....

+1

[+cronicpain]

Whats his side of the story?

[furshore]

So let me get this straight, YOU drove into a ditch that damaged a vehicle and you expect someone else to pay?

 

Regardless of "bad navigation instructions", you are driving, not him.

 

What if he told you to run a red light or speed and you got a ticket? Would you expect him to pay it? I doubt it, because you are in control of the vehicle, not him.

 

Even if you took him to court, you would never win. You alone were driving the vehicle and part of driving a vehicle is watching the road.

 

Since you were in a rental, you also broke your agreement with them. All rental agreements state that the vehicle is to be operated on roads only, no off-roading allowed. Its clear from the start that you have no regard for agreements, until they favor you.

[furshore]

Got it! Wish you could have been there.

[sdarken]

Any suggestions on what I should do from here?

 

Learn from your mistakes perhaps? Don't take a rental car off road and watch out for ditches. Don't take trips with complete strangers.

[+LukeTrocity]

Sorry man you're burned on that money. Lesson learned i guess?

[knowschad]

I'm curious... what is the point of posting that here? Just looking to vent? There surely is nothing that we here can do about it.

 

By the way, the way I read the story, I get a visual that you were probably driving way too fast when all of this happened. The way I picture it, you were flying down the road, he yelled that you should have turned back there, you made a quick attempt to turn around without really thinking about what you were doing, and ended up in the ditch. Don't blame the navigator on that one!

[+Trav'lin Two]

500 feet before you hit the ditch! Wow, how fast were you going? We have done the range and don't see how you could have run in the ditch if you were paying attention.

 

Anyway, buck up and eat the 500 loss. Just consider it an expensive lesson.

[furshore]

I was driving maybe 10 mph...the ground was level a there was a slight rise and the ditch could not be seen until it was too late. You would have to be there to really understand. Vent...maybe...frustrated...very...disappointed...very

[knowschad]

You're going 10 miles per hour and you weren't able to stop in time to avoid hitting an irrigation ditch? And when you did hit it, you hit with enough force to damage an SUV? OK. I guess you should have been driving slower.

[furshore]

I was not driving too fast...I was driving the correct safe coarse that would have gotten us the to cache without a problem we would have avoided the irrigation ditch by several hundred feet. He wanted to save time and take a short cut so he told me to turn about ninety degrees from the coase I was following to take a direct route to the cache. He was in a hurry...he was always in a hurry. It was always go...go...go and stop. No I did not follow those directions. He was a bully cacher.

[furshore]

Some of these replies are insulted but I guess I asked for it. This irrigation ditch was twenty feet deep and virtually invisable because of the terrain until it is too late. Was 10 mph too fast...well in hindsight maybe but this was totally unexpected.

[vagabond]

Most of the Camino Diablo caches we walked to from the dirt road, there were a few we drove to and had no problems. of course we took 2 days to do it and Pole line dancing plus a few more in the area.

If you were trying to do the whole 35 miles of Camino Diablo in one day I can see where you might run into trouble.

Bottom line, you were driving

edit to add

where was this 20 foot irrigation ditch??

Edited April 30, 2011 by vagabond

[furshore]

You did some serious walking since the caches go almost 30 miles...so if you walk it direct and do not take in account walking from the road to caches then that is over miles in the desert. You are better man than I am.

[jholly]

Fun read. Don't know what is more interesting, driving into a ditch or having the ex take away the FTF.

[vagabond]

You did some serious walking since the caches go almost 30 miles...so if you walk it direct and do not take in account walking from the road to caches then that is over miles in the desert. You are better man than I am.

read my post a little closer it said from the dirt road not from the beginning, as you know most of the caches were within 30 yards of the dirt road, not all of them but the majority of them

[+Danbike_Lizbike]

Man, let's get Judge Judy involved. She would have a field day.

[knowschad]

Some of these replies are insulted but I guess I asked for it. This irrigation ditch was twenty feet deep and virtually invisable because of the terrain until it is too late. Was 10 mph too fast...well in hindsight maybe but this was totally unexpected.

 

I'm sorry if my posts are some of the ones that you feel insulted by, but I'm just giving you my honest opinion. If you were unable to see a 20 foot deep irrigation ditch because of the terrain, then I guarantee you that 10 mph was too fast. I don't care how impatient your copilot may have been... you had the wheel and the accelerator. You were the responsible party for the safety of that vehicle.

 

Now, the part I will agree with you on is that, if your partner did really promise to pay half, and he reneged on his promise, then he is in the wrong there. But I do not believe that because you two agreed to split the vehicle expenses, that he would have been obligated to cover half of an accident. If he did agree to, then he was either just being nice, or he may have felt pressured into it, and once he was at home and miles away, he no longer felt so pressured. But without hearing his side of the story, the only thing I can say for sure is that you were driving too fast, even if you had been driving half that speed.

Edited April 30, 2011 by knowschad

[GOF and Bacall]

Sorry, but this thread just reminds me of this commercial.

 

[furshore]

I guess we could have left him in Yuma and let him find his own way home...but we didn't do it because we did not think that was the right thing to do. I know I was wrong...I got it. But he agreed not once but twice to pay half of the deductible. As far as the conditions if I just would not have changed coarse and just follow the existing car tracks we would have been fine. He was also iritated that it took the tow truck and hour and a half and that was time we were not caching. He was a very difficult driven cacher...probably like some of you.

[furshore]

This guy was very difficult...he sat in the car while doing Rt 66 and said if we shave 5 seconds off every cache we could do a 100 more that day. He even suggested that we call pee at the same time so not to waste time. He was something else. Never again.

[mresoteric]

He was the navigator and directed me into the ditch.

 

And you turned your brain off and drove into the ditch anyway?

 

You were driving. You are responsible. If I made plans to share expenses on a trip, that would not include paying for someone else's poor driving skills.

[furshore]

Did you not get it...he agreed to pay half. He directed me into the ditch. You act like I am an idiot.

[jholly]

<snip>

He was a very difficult driven cacher...probably like some of you.

Now do you have to go around insulting me when I had nothing to do with you driving into the ditch?

[mresoteric]

He directed me into the ditch. You act like I am an idiot.

 

[jholly]

Did you not get it...he agreed to pay half. He directed me into the ditch. You act like I am an idiot.

Promises, Promises. Did I ever tell you the promise the recruiter gave me when I signed up for the Navy? And I would be careful going around calling people idiots, you can get banned for that.

[mresoteric]

And I would be careful going around calling people idiots, you can get banned for that.

 

Nobody called anyone an idiot.

[+Chokecherry]

Ya know there was a whole series of bad choices here.

 

1. You went on a tedious trip with someone you describe as difficult. Some people actually stop the bad choices at that point.

 

2. You took a rental car off road (how did that possibly seem like a good idea).

 

3. You were driving fast enough where in 500 feet you were unable to stop in time for a ditch which was 20 feet deep. And fast enough to do that much damage to an SUV.

 

4. You decided to give up your driving opinion to the guy who wasn't behind the wheel and driving.

 

5. You took a strangers word about financial obligations for a trip that was going to cost more than $10 in the best of circumstances.

 

6. You put your name on that car.

 

7. You didn't use your better judgment. The guy staring at the GPS should not be the sole director of any driving situation. How did that seem like a good idea?

 

Yeah he's not cool for not giving you the money. But at the same time you made a series of bad choices here and sometimes that costs money. Next time make better choices.

[furshore]

You are right. I learned a lesson and I hope others will not hook up with geocachers and do a week long power runs without knowing the risks. That was my point. It seems that everyone here wants to beat on me for my bad decision...well go ahead...keep dishing it out. I am a mature level headed adult that made a bad decision lets just leave it at that and stop posting to this topic. I give up...you win I have had enough!

[+wigglesworth]

Don't give up on making new caching friends.

 

We have teamed up with local cachers on many of our trips and our experience has been great. Their local knowledge and experience has has helped us to make many memorable caching trips.

We are all members of an elite club - many of us are keen to help fellow cachers.

[+NanCycle]

Fun read. Don't know what is more interesting, driving into a ditch or having the ex take away the FTF.

 

Don't worry. I won't be going after your FTFs.

 

(I read this thread before the other one, and didn't get the point at first.)

[knowschad]

Did you not get it...he agreed to pay half. He directed me into the ditch. You act like I am an idiot.

Promises, Promises. Did I ever tell you the promise the recruiter gave me when I signed up for the Navy? And I would be careful going around calling people idiots, you can get banned for that.

That was you sitting next to me on the airplane who's recruiter told him that after he was done with bootcamp, that he would be flying jets? What a small world it is! I've been telling that story about you for years now!

[furshore]

We will not give up on our and I repeat "our" caching friends. I love to attend the events and meet new cachers. This is such a great hobby...we love it. We probably got several calls today while we were out caching. One was kind of funny. She called from a cache they found this morning and said what were we doing out at 4:30 this morning caching? We explained that the 4/30 on the log was the date and we all had a good laugh. We enjoy the friends we have made geocaching. We go out caching with some and have a great time. Long power runs are fun but we really enjoy just a nice day of the caching challenge. I hope that I have not given the impression that I am bitter...I am not. I am disappointed in myself and this power cacher we teamed up with. I guess you all are right...I was wrong and he was right.

[knowschad]

You are right. I learned a lesson and I hope others will not hook up with geocachers and do a week long power runs without knowing the risks. That was my point. It seems that everyone here wants to beat on me for my bad decision...well go ahead...keep dishing it out. I am a mature level headed adult that made a bad decision lets just leave it at that and stop posting to this topic. I give up...you win I have had enough!

 

Nobody here is trying to win anything and nobody won anything.

 

If you really are done posting and don't want to see this thread added to, you should explicitly ask a mod to lock it.

[+Sol seaker]

I understand the difficulty of people not following through on agreements and not wanting to take financial responsibility.

 

Leaving the debate aside of who was responsible for what, he did say he'd pay for half of all expenses.

 

This reminds me of the years I used to live with housemates.

They would constantly break my belongings and no one ever would replace what they broke. Then when I replaced them they would expect to keep using my stuff.

I would tell them they were no longer allowed to use my stuff and then I'd catch them sneaking behind my back. I'd have to put breakable things away where I couldn't use them either.

 

The point I'm making here is that this seems to be typically human behavior.

I don't think it's special to this guy.

This is the kind of thing people do all the time.

People do not like being financially responsible.

 

Whatever was "right" or "should have been" this guy is acting like a great deal of the population.

You can try to get the money from him, but in the end you're probably going to have to just save yourself the anguish and cough up the money and chalk it up to lessons learned.

 

I hate expensive lessons, but we all have them.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

furshore,

 

Sorry to hear about your experience. Sounds to me like you hooked-up w/ a cacher that didn't mesh w/ your personalities. We've never done that caching, but have had a passenger like that in the car once. It can be a pain in the butt. Dealing w/ it that long will wear on you. You won't recover your cash, but appreciate you sharing so others don't set themselves up for the same.

[jholly]

Did you not get it...he agreed to pay half. He directed me into the ditch. You act like I am an idiot.

Promises, Promises. Did I ever tell you the promise the recruiter gave me when I signed up for the Navy? And I would be careful going around calling people idiots, you can get banned for that.

That was you sitting next to me on the airplane who's recruiter told him that after he was done with bootcamp, that he would be flying jets? What a small world it is! I've been telling that story about you for years now!

[mtbikernate]

I'll do stuff with people I don't know...but I won't ever enter into any sort of verbal agreement over money with someone I don't know.

 

I'm not afraid to break rental car agreements (I broke one 4 times over on my last vacation), but you've gotta be dadgum careful if you do it. First you have to make sure the vehicle is beyond capable of what you intend to do, and capable of handling a variety of "unforseen circumstances" in the event that something bad happens. Then you have to have the skills to handle said vehicle in a variety of conditions without otherwise tipping off the rental car staff.

 

Also, carry better auto insurance. $1,000 deductibles suck hard. I try to keep deductibles at $500 tops - even better is zero deductible.

 

Agree with the others who said 10mph (if that is what you were actually going) was too fast. If I can't see what's ahead, I slow WAY down...maybe even stop, get out of the car, and look before proceeding. I have plenty of experience driving in sketchy conditions in the mountains & desert. Some of those situations have required driving at slower than walking speed. One situation was so hairy that my passengers got out and walked while I drove the truck because they were afraid of the rollover risk. Roads wash out all the time, and you don't want to be caught unaware.

[+Ike 13]

I've done plenty of power runs and long caching days. I would NEVER plan a caching trip that extensive with someone who I have never cached with. You can learn a lot about someone from a small caching trip around town and then decide whether you want to spend 12+ hours in a car with that person.

[knowschad]

I've done plenty of power runs and long caching days. I would NEVER plan a caching trip that extensive with someone who I have never cached with. You can learn a lot about someone from a small caching trip around town and then decide whether you want to spend 12+ hours in a car with that person.

There aren't many people that I know well that I would do that with, to be truthful. At least he didn't lose any friendships over it.

[+Scubasonic]

Some of these replies are insulted but I guess I asked for it.

 

Yep there is another lesson you learned, don't post here. In the end you feel much worse then you did before you posted.

 

Scubasonic

[+pppingme]

I'm still stuck on the fact that you had a signed agreement on the car rental that I have no doubt said you couldn't use it off-road, yet you didn't honer that, because it benefited you not to honer it (you got to the caches quicker), so isn't it hypocritical to expect someone else to honer their agreement with you when it benefits them not to do so?

 

You can't ask for honer if you don't give it.

[knowschad]

Some of these replies are insulted but I guess I asked for it.

 

Yep there is another lesson you learned, don't post here. In the end you feel much worse then you did before you posted.

 

Scubasonic

 

Brilliant.

[furshore]

You are right...another lesson learned about posting. Yes, I feel worse. I guess that I am surprised that most people feel that he really had no responsibiltiy. No more posts from me of matters of this nature. This is a tough group.

[+A & J Tooling]

You are right...another lesson learned about posting. Yes, I feel worse. I guess that I am surprised that most people feel that he really had no responsibiltiy. No more posts from me of matters of this nature. This is a tough group.

 

Personal responsibility is a fleeting thing nowadays. Tells you something about the people who posted, huh?

[furshore]

I did not say that I had no responsiblity...I certainly did...half. This sarcasm is uncalled for.