Making a secret, unlisted cache

June 20, 2011

Hi,

Is there any way of making a cache which is not listed when people search- i.e a secret cache which someone has to know the GC code for to see its listing?

I want to make a series of caches which contain clues to a big secret cache.

is there a way of doing this?

Also, if I want to record the GPS coordinates of the cache, is there a way of doing this on my iPhone 4, and how accurate will the coordinates be (on the iPhone 4)?

Thanks!

Greg

6k · June 20, 2011

No.

What you would do is make the final a mystery/unknown and the coordinates are not revealed to anybody (except the reviewer of course). Be careful how many caches a person has to find to get to the secret one. Every time you add an extra one you reduce the amount of people that will go for it. If that is fine with you ok but if you are expecting bunches of logs it won't work.

2.8k · June 20, 2011

What you are describing is a series with a Unknown cache as the final cache. The Unknown or Puzzle cache will be listed but the cords shown on the cache page will not be the actual cords. Just put in some cords that are about 1 mile or less away from the actual cache. It may help to look around your area and see if there are any series caches near by. They will typically be named about the same and mention they are whatever number of the series with a puzzle for the final cache. Just to give you a better idea of how to lay it all out.

Might i recommend getting some more caches under your belt before hiding any.

You can use an iPhone to mark the cords. But most people prefer using a decent hand held unit to mark there cords. The official geocaching app (assuming thats the app your using) isn't really designed for hiding a cache. Even while standing still your position can jump around a bit. Most hand held units have an averaging feature that will take all the readings over a period of time and average them out to give you the best possible position. Overall the cords should be about as close as any other hand held unit will give you.

14k · June 20, 2011

Might i recommend getting some more caches under your belt before hiding any.

Or, at the very least, hide a few traditional caches first so that you get a feel for cache ownership. I am not sure why, but it seems to be fairly common for new cachers to come up with some complex series or massive multi cache for their first hide. Keep in mind, that for a series of caches which must be found before finding a final puzzle cache that the puzzle cache is dependent upon every traditional in the series. If any of them go missing the puzzle cache becomes unfindable so you'd have disable at least two caches until everything is fixed.

9.2k · June 20, 2011

Was going to say take a look at the Alpha Quest series by Messe, but a lot of them are being made Premium Member only.

It's a big series of caches, where after finding coordinates in Traditional caches, you then have to start finding multi-caches and more traditional caches to get to the final Alpha Quest Z http://coord.info/GCRK3F.

It does require A LOT of work on the maintenance side of things.

(He gets some great logs and comments on the caches though!)

1.9k · June 21, 2011

Hi,

Is there any way of making a cache which is not listed when people search- i.e a secret cache which someone has to know the GC code for to see its listing?

I want to make a series of caches which contain clues to a big secret cache.

is there a way of doing this?

Also, if I want to record the GPS coordinates of the cache, is there a way of doing this on my iPhone 4, and how accurate will the coordinates be (on the iPhone 4)?

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

9.3k · June 21, 2011

Is there any way of making a cache which is not listed when people search- i.e a secret cache which someone has to know the GC code for to see its listing?

Hi Necked Ostrich!

I think the advice you've been given regarding making your cache a puzzle or a multi is probably the best solution to your problem, but it doesn't specifically answer your question. I think there is a way to make a separate cache that would only be searchable to folks who knew the GC number.

It would take a lot of bribing though, as it runs afoul of some guideline issues.

Still, for argument's sake, I'll describe the process.

Hide a traditional cache and submit it for publication. If possible, do this in mnt-man's jurisdiction. Wait till he goes on vacation, and ship a case of Milk Bones to his trusty sidekick, Puppy Monster. Convince Puppy Monster to publish, then immediately archive the listing. You may need to keep sending Puppy Monster more bribes, so he'll overlook folks logging finds on an archived cache. As his belly gets empty, he might dwell on all the rules you've convinced him to break, but when his tummy is full of Milk Bones, you may be able to convince him to treat your cache just like Groundspeak Headquarters. I.e; archived but loggable.

The cache would not show up in PQs, but it would still show in other cacher's finds.

1.8k · June 21, 2011

archive the listing

That's a pretty good idea in the abstract.

Another option that wouldn't involve as much subterfuge would be to find some caches in the area that are about to be archived and see if the COs will allow you to plant clues on the cache pages (once archived the cache pages can't be edited easily). Or you could hide some clues in logs on those caches.

Or you could hide clues in logs for benchmarks in your area - they don't show up in searches the same way that other types do, although they are still managed on gc.com.

June 21, 2011

Hi,

Is there any way of making a cache which is not listed when people search- i.e a secret cache which someone has to know the GC code for to see its listing?

I want to make a series of caches which contain clues to a big secret cache.

is there a way of doing this?

Also, if I want to record the GPS coordinates of the cache, is there a way of doing this on my iPhone 4, and how accurate will the coordinates be (on the iPhone 4)?

Thanks!

Greg

Welcome to Geocaching nakedostrich!

We waited until we had 50 finds before we hide our first cache as we wanted to make sure that we had a good sense of how our GPS worked and the rules of the game.

On one of our recent hides, we took coordinates with our Garmin HCX and our i-phone - guess which was 40 metres away? We have found caches with our i-phone. But for rural and forest caches, we depend on our Garmins.

We too would recommend starting with a few regulars until you work out the kinks of placing and publishing a cache.

Stony Plain, Alberta has a mural series that you might be interested in looking at - the final - http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=61fc6167-3096-41a5-9946-b72c4af218f6 and the secret bonus cache is - http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=878cd9ca-2d15-4f11-a0e7-bd25e6260f6a We found the first three caches in the mural series last summer and plan on returning to finish the series this summer. And because we missed the clues for the secret surprise cache, we have to revisit the first three caches, Arggh! This type of cache does get less visitors because of all the work involved to get there.

Enjoy your Geocaching Adventures and your cache ownership!

mwellmans

edited to correct second link

Edited June 21, 2011 by mwellman

3.3k · June 21, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

7k · June 21, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

That's what the said about the previous model too, when it was still the latest.

9.3k · June 21, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

It's not. I've cached side by side with an iPhone 4, and the cheap patch antenna it uses frequently had the phone 50+ feet away from my Garmin, which was typically right on top of the cache. I can't hate on the iPhone as a cache finding tool, as having the ability to cache on the fly, sans PQs, comes in real handy, but with their accuracy issues I can't recommend that they be used for hiding.

3.8k · June 21, 2011

Do yourself a big favor and play a while longer before you go hiding any. Right now, you show 7 traditional finds. It would probably be helpful if you have experience finding multis and unknowns. Particularly since those types are mor like what you evidently want to hide.

What you want to do is pretty ambitious for most anyone to pull off, even if they have a lot of experience.

IT's a good idea, but you really should wait a while, IMO

1.8k · June 21, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

It's not. I've cached side by side with an iPhone 4, and the cheap patch antenna it uses frequently had the phone 50+ feet away from my Garmin, which was typically right on top of the cache. I can't hate on the iPhone as a cache finding tool, as having the ability to cache on the fly, sans PQs, comes in real handy, but with their accuracy issues I can't recommend that they be used for hiding.

As far as actual GPSr reception, I don't think the iPhone4 can measure up. It's noticeably worse IMO.

Having sat maps available in urban areas is a pretty nice feature though. When I'm caching in New York, I sometimes go weeks without powering up my GPSr.

2.5k · June 21, 2011

I wanted to hide an unsearchable cache once. It would be at the coords you'd get from a red herring to another puzzle. My idea was to put the posted coords out in the middle of the Atlantic (putting it outside a normal search radius) with a "Placed" date that put it outside the "Recent Caches" list for the state.

I ran it by the reviewer, but they thought it'd just cause confusion with the cache with the red herring so it never happened. Maybe I didn't offer enough dog biscuits, or maybe I got one of the few non-canine reviewers.

June 21, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

It's not. I've cached side by side with an iPhone 4, and the cheap patch antenna it uses frequently had the phone 50+ feet away from my Garmin, which was typically right on top of the cache. I can't hate on the iPhone as a cache finding tool, as having the ability to cache on the fly, sans PQs, comes in real handy, but with their accuracy issues I can't recommend that they be used for hiding.

As far as actual GPSr reception, I don't think the iPhone4 can measure up. It's noticeably worse IMO.

Having sat maps available in urban areas is a pretty nice feature though. When I'm caching in New York, I sometimes go weeks without powering up my GPSr.

I have used the last three models and they all work as accurately as my Oregon450 or my eTrex VistaHCx. The only difference I find is the refresh rate on the iPhone is slower than a handheld GPSr. I have placed at least ten caches with my iPhone3GS and I haven't had any complaints. I just keep using waypoint averaging for any cache I place.

June 22, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I have had the opposite results I have an iphone4 and went with a friend who owns a garmin Oregon. We did urban and bush caches and found the iPhone to be as accurate as the Oregon and a few in the bush that the iPhone was on the cache and the oregon was out further (10-15 feet)

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

It's not. I've cached side by side with an iPhone 4, and the cheap patch antenna it uses frequently had the phone 50+ feet away from my Garmin, which was typically right on top of the cache. I can't hate on the iPhone as a cache finding tool, as having the ability to cache on the fly, sans PQs, comes in real handy, but with their accuracy issues I can't recommend that they be used for hiding.

2.5k · June 22, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!
I have used the last three models and they all work as accurately as my Oregon450 or my eTrex VistaHCx. The only difference I find is the refresh rate on the iPhone is slower than a handheld GPSr. I have placed at least ten caches with my iPhone3GS and I haven't had any complaints. I just keep using waypoint averaging for any cache I place.

Just because nobody's complained doesn't mean nobody's noticed. There's some hiders who I just expect the coords to be much further off than I'd expect to see from anyone else, and I just keep my mouth shut to keep the peace. I suspect if you were in my area, you'd be one of those people.

Since you think your phone works just fine because nobody's complained, maybe I should do cachers around here a favor and start fussing about lousy coords. When they come to me wondering what's up, I'll tell 'em to thank you. How's that sound?

1.5k · June 22, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!
I have used the last three models and they all work as accurately as my Oregon450 or my eTrex VistaHCx. The only difference I find is the refresh rate on the iPhone is slower than a handheld GPSr. I have placed at least ten caches with my iPhone3GS and I haven't had any complaints. I just keep using waypoint averaging for any cache I place.
Just because nobody's complained doesn't mean nobody's noticed. There's some hiders who I just expect the coords to be much further off than I'd expect to see from anyone else, and I just keep my mouth shut to keep the peace. I suspect if you were in my area, you'd be one of those people.

Since you think your phone works just fine because nobody's complained, maybe I should do cachers around here a favor and start fussing about lousy coords. When they come to me wondering what's up, I'll tell 'em to thank you. How's that sound?

I cache with an iPhone 4. My wife uses an iPhone 3gs.

I would NEVER use a 3gs to determine coordinates for a cache placement. I use an Oregon 450t.

7.5k · June 23, 2011

Keep in mind, that for a series of caches which must be found before finding a final puzzle cache that the puzzle cache is dependent upon every traditional in the series. If any of them go missing the puzzle cache becomes unfindable so you'd have disable at least two caches until everything is fixed.

That's one of the reasons I don't like series caches with an 'unknown' final cache.

Also, I always forget to look for the code (usually on the inside lid or logbook cover) or write it down. I think I've only found one series cache and it was only a 2 part series with a final unknown cache. And yes, I forgot to write down the code from cache #1. I had to re-visit cache #1, but it was on the way back to the car so it was an easy re-visit.

3.2k · June 24, 2011

Hi,

Is there any way of making a cache which is not listed when people search- i.e a secret cache which someone has to know the GC code for to see its listing?

I want to make a series of caches which contain clues to a big secret cache.

is there a way of doing this?

Also, if I want to record the GPS coordinates of the cache, is there a way of doing this on my iPhone 4, and how accurate will the coordinates be (on the iPhone 4)?

Thanks!

Greg

GS did make this available for people who did not want anyone to see the listing.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

If any of them go missing the puzzle cache becomes unfindable so you'd have disable at least two caches until everything is fixed.

Why would you have to disable the bonus cache? Not everyone will do the whole series in a single day and may already have the information in the cache that went missing.

1.8k · June 24, 2011

If any of them go missing the puzzle cache becomes unfindable so you'd have disable at least two caches until everything is fixed.

Why would you have to disable the bonus cache? Not everyone will do the whole series in a single day and may already have the information in the cache that went missing.

In our area, if components required for a bonus cache go missing, our reviewer is very consistent about disabling the cache that relies on them.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

In our area, if components required for a bonus cache go missing, our reviewer is very consistent about disabling the cache that relies on them.

A reviewer making up their own guidelines does not answer my question of "Why?".

If the bonus is still findable then it shouldn't be disabled. I've already said that people may already have the necessary information. The fact that the bonus is a Unknown type means people are going to read the listing. If they have the info they'll go find it, if they don't they'll wait for the prerequisite to be re-enabled. Or they'll just do a PAF and get the one piece of missing information.

I've found quite a few bonus caches days, and sometimes months, after I've found the prerequisites. Having the cache details not show up in my GPSr because of a cache that I've already found being disabled would be very annoying.

20.7k · June 24, 2011

Do everyone a favor and DON'T take readings with an iphone!

I don't know, I hear the iPhone 4 is as good as a standard hand held GPSr.

It's not. I've cached side by side with an iPhone 4, and the cheap patch antenna it uses frequently had the phone 50+ feet away from my Garmin, which was typically right on top of the cache. I can't hate on the iPhone as a cache finding tool, as having the ability to cache on the fly, sans PQs, comes in real handy, but with their accuracy issues I can't recommend that they be used for hiding.

Sure, the iphone isn't as good a GPSr as the most recent units being sold by Garmin, but how is it compared to an older unit such as the original yellow etrex?

1.8k · June 24, 2011

In our area, if components required for a bonus cache go missing, our reviewer is very consistent about disabling the cache that relies on them.

A reviewer making up their own guidelines does not answer my question of "Why?".

If the bonus is still findable then it shouldn't be disabled. I've already said that people may already have the necessary information. The fact that the bonus is a Unknown type means people are going to read the listing. If they have the info they'll go find it, if they don't they'll wait for the prerequisite to be re-enabled. Or they'll just do a PAF and get the one piece of missing information.

I've found quite a few bonus caches days, and sometimes months, after I've found the prerequisites. Having the cache details not show up in my GPSr because of a cache that I've already found being disabled would be very annoying.

I don't know if I'd call it "making up their own guidelines". Our reviewer does a good job, and it seems like a reasonable interpretation to treat it similarly to a multi-cache. If components of a multi-cache go missing, I think in many areas the norm would be to disable the multi until the components have been replaced.

As to the "Why?" I suppose one answer would be that disabling the cache advertises that a required piece may be missing, and could save cachers wasted effort (especially if it's not easy to see all of the available components - perhaps clues to the identities of the component caches are hidden in other component caches). Since in this case it's an Unknown type which means people are going to read the listing, when the CO disables the cache she could report in the log and on the cache page that the final container is in fact in place and that people possessing information which is no longer available can still hunt with confidence, while she works to get the cache fully up and running.

9.3k · June 24, 2011

GS did make this available for people who did not want anyone to see the listing.

You owe me a keyboard. I think I'm gonna hire CanadianRockies as council. :lol: :laughing: :anitongue: :lol:

7k · June 24, 2011

I don't know if I'd call it "making up their own guidelines". Our reviewer does a good job, and it seems like a reasonable interpretation to treat it similarly to a multi-cache. If components of a multi-cache go missing, I think in many areas the norm would be to disable the multi until the components have been replaced.

Meh.

Multis are usually meant to be done in one go, start to end. Of course there's exceptions to that rule, but generally you find the cache the same day as you start the multi.

Bonus caches on the other hand are usually not meant to be done at the same time as their component caches. Again there's exceptions to that rule, probably a lot more than to the first one, but generally I'd say bonus caches are to be seen as isolated caches. They're more like puzzle caches, with other caches being the required pieces of the puzzle.

That being said, puzzle caches should also be disabled when required pieces for the puzzle are temporarily unavailable, in the same way that they must be archived when a required piece becomes permanently unavailable (or the listing must be changed to take that into account). The same applies to bonus caches: one of the component caches gets archived, so the bonus cache must be archived too (or the listing changed). So I have to agree with the disabling. Not necessarily with the fact that the reviewer does it, but generally.

1.8k · June 24, 2011

So I have to agree with the disabling. Not necessarily with the fact that the reviewer does it, but generally.

(FWIW, I've only ever seen it come into play in the same way that our reviewer gets involved with other caches that should be disabled (for construction or missing containers or etc.). Something is wrong for a while, confused DNFs and note logs pile up, no response from the cache owner, someone finally contacts the reviewer, who starts off a disable note with the canned "This cache was brought to my attention by a concerned geocacher as being in trouble...")

Edited June 24, 2011 by addisonbr

2.4k · June 24, 2011

In our area, if components required for a bonus cache go missing, our reviewer is very consistent about disabling the cache that relies on them.

A reviewer making up their own guidelines does not answer my question of "Why?".

If the bonus is still findable then it shouldn't be disabled. I've already said that people may already have the necessary information. The fact that the bonus is a Unknown type means people are going to read the listing. If they have the info they'll go find it, if they don't they'll wait for the prerequisite to be re-enabled. Or they'll just do a PAF and get the one piece of missing information.

I've found quite a few bonus caches days, and sometimes months, after I've found the prerequisites. Having the cache details not show up in my GPSr because of a cache that I've already found being disabled would be very annoying.

Of course, disabling a cache doesn't preclude finding it and logging it IF you have the information.

Once you have the cache ID you can still find the page, and if nothing has been removed from the field except the problem piece, what has changed for the person that has already started the hunt? If someone has not reached the missing/problem stage, they can either quit, wait or seek the information (PAF or even email the owner)... Disabling only serves as a temporary state that discourages people from seeking a cache that has problems until it is fixed. Either way works or not. But average cachers simply won't see it on the listings. I'm going to go try a couple of puzzles I solved way back. One was disabled for verifier/checker glitch. But the solution is clear enough. I have no idea why it is still disabled, and the owner isn't even sure if he pulled the box or not. I can go look for him when I do some other finals in the same area. Same for the other which appears to have been disabled for construction in the area of the false coordinates. Many km away. They are actively placing more caches, so I don't know what is happening other than that they are busy with the newer traditionals and the older puzzles will wait.

Doug 7rxc

Edited June 24, 2011 by 7rxc

1.4k · June 24, 2011

I don't know if I'd call it "making up their own guidelines".

What else would you call it when it's not in the guidelines? :anibad:

Our reviewer does a good job,

So do ours but they have done some silly things in the past. They do make mistakes or misinterpret things like the rest of us do.

and it seems like a reasonable interpretation to treat it similarly to a multi-cache. If components of a multi-cache go missing, I think in many areas the norm would be to disable the multi until the components have been replaced.

Then it would have been listed as a multi-cache if the CO wanted it treated as a multi-cache.

The stages of a multicache do not have their own GC code and listing. They can't be disabled individually and can't be logged separately.

As to the "Why?" I suppose one answer would be that disabling the cache advertises that a required piece may be missing, and could save cachers wasted effort (especially if it's not easy to see all of the available components - perhaps clues to the identities of the component caches are hidden in other component caches).

Disabling the single missing cache advertises that the missing cache is missing. No need to disable another cache to do something that's already been done.

How would not disabling the bonus make cachers waste effort? They still get to log the other caches unlike a multi. And they can always do the bonus if any of the requirements get archived. Many COs put the missing information on the bonus cache listing in that case.

When I go after a bonus cache because I need it for a challenge or it's a really amazing cache I check all the prerequisites anyways to see how much time it will take to do them and how difficult they are.

Since in this case it's an Unknown type which means people are going to read the listing, when the CO disables the cache she could report in the log and on the cache page that the final container is in fact in place and that people possessing information which is no longer available can still hunt with confidence, while she works to get the cache fully up and running.

Why not leave it enabled and change the listing text to say that one of the prerequisites is missing. Same effect but it lets people who filter out disabled caches still get the text in their PQs. And why would people bother to read the cache listing and logs if the map shows the cache to be disabled?

Our group here puts out a new night caching series each year with a bonus final. Most people do not manage to get to the final the night of the event. They come back months and even years later to finish off the series. Having a disabled final would have kept these people from coming back even though they had the location of the final.

While I don't agree with it, I have no issue with the CO disabling the bonus. But the reviewer should not as it's not their cache and they have no business messing with it if it doesn't violate the guidelines.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

Of course, disabling a cache doesn't preclude finding it and logging it IF you have the information. Once you have the cache ID you can still find the page, and if nothing has been removed from the field except the problem piece, what has changed for the person that has already started the hunt?

They may not have the information in their GPS anymore. Many people don't bother loading caches that are disabled.

Personally, I don't always get around to finding the final right away. If I'm back caching in the area months later and the cache is disabled I won't bother looking at it as it won't be in my GPS or show up on my iPhone so I wouldn't realize that there's a final in the area. If I don't know there's a final in the area I wouldn't be going direct to it's cache listing by GC Code then.

If someone has not reached the missing/problem stage, they can either quit, wait or seek the information (PAF or even email the owner)... Disabling only serves as a temporary state that discourages people from seeking a cache that has problems until it is fixed.

But you're not seeking that cache yet, you're seeking the prerequisites first. So the person seeking the prerequisites would see the disabled cache and would do exactly what you wrote. And unlike a multi, they can still log the stages they found so no time has been wasted.

The disabled final would only affect the people who are passed the missing/problem stage so there's no point in disabling the final.

I'm going to go try a couple of puzzles I solved way back. One was disabled for verifier/checker glitch. But the solution is clear enough. I have no idea why it is still disabled, and the owner isn't even sure if he pulled the box or not. I can go look for him when I do some other finals in the same area. Same for the other which appears to have been disabled for construction in the area of the false coordinates. Many km away. They are actively placing more caches, so I don't know what is happening other than that they are busy with the newer traditionals and the older puzzles will wait.

Different situation. What I'm talking about is a cache that has nothing wrong with it, the CO doesn't want to disable it but the reviewer disabled it for some made up reason.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Avernar

1.4k · June 24, 2011

That being said, puzzle caches should also be disabled when required pieces for the puzzle are temporarily unavailable, in the same way that they must be archived when a required piece becomes permanently unavailable (or the listing must be changed to take that into account). The same applies to bonus caches: one of the component caches gets archived, so the bonus cache must be archived too (or the listing changed). So I have to agree with the disabling. Not necessarily with the fact that the reviewer does it, but generally.

I'm not sure what the name of the logical fallacy you used but you made an argument that a bonus should be archived/altered when a prerequisite is archived and then conclude that disabling is ok. :huh:

Even in the archiving case, most COs leave the bonus enabled for a few months to let the cachers that have the prerequisites a chance to find it. So if I do what you did and translate that to the disabling situation then I say leave the bonus enabled for a few months to let the cachers that have the prerequisites a chance to find it. Except that the prerequisite will most likely be enabled in that time period so the final need not be disabled.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

(FWIW, I've only ever seen it come into play in the same way that our reviewer gets involved with other caches that should be disabled (for construction or missing containers or etc.). Something is wrong for a while, confused DNFs and note logs pile up, no response from the cache owner, someone finally contacts the reviewer, who starts off a disable note with the canned "This cache was brought to my attention by a concerned geocacher as being in trouble...")

Except none of the above would have happened on the bonus listing but on the prerequisite listing. Therefore only the prerequisite should be disabled by the reviewer.

1.8k · June 24, 2011

I don't know if I'd call it "making up their own guidelines".

What else would you call it when it's not in the guidelines?

Interpreting them. Whether or not a geocache is "in place" isn't entirely cut and dried here when everything required to find it isn't in place. I'm sure we could argue semantics back and forth like non-law-degree-holding-non-lawyers, but I suspect most would agree it's a bit of a grey area.

2.4k · June 24, 2011

If the bonus is still findable then it shouldn't be disabled. I've already said that people may already have the necessary information. The fact that the bonus is a Unknown type means people are going to read the listing. If they have the info they'll go find it, if they don't they'll wait for the prerequisite to be re-enabled. Or they'll just do a PAF and get the one piece of missing information.

I've found quite a few bonus caches days, and sometimes months, after I've found the prerequisites. Having the cache details not show up in my GPSr because of a cache that I've already found being disabled would be very annoying.

I'll agree about the bonus cache disabling. The rest was agreeing with your statement above (bolded). One would assume the bonus was mentioned on the 'prerequisite' cache page though. My personal feeling is that the state of your GPS memory is really up to you.

It's not impossible to use something like GSAK to manage what you feed your GPS. Not showing in a PQ or two wouldn't bother that. I can't really say about Other PQ use though, since I don't have that capability. It just seems to be a personal preference. I have lots of files 'go missing' on my PC, because I forget where I put them. Or more usually, sorted them out, and refiled them. THAT is what my database is for. Keeping Track of things. Sometimes it gets out of hand. Caching I simply don't have a big volume to track.

Doug 7rxc

1.8k · June 24, 2011

Disabling the single missing cache advertises that the missing cache is missing. No need to disable another cache to do something that's already been done.

How would not disabling the bonus make cachers waste effort? They still get to log the other caches unlike a multi. And they can always do the bonus if any of the requirements get archived. Many COs put the missing information on the bonus cache listing in that case.

...

Why not leave it enabled and change the listing text to say that one of the prerequisites is missing. Same effect but it lets people who filter out disabled caches still get the text in their PQs. And why would people bother to read the cache listing and logs if the map shows the cache to be disabled?

I think it may not always be clear that the missing caches are missing without doing a lot of research, that's all I'm saying (especially if the IDs of the component caches are at all obscured).

If a cache owner put the missing information on the bonus cache page, that's a perfectly fine fix IMO. I'd agree with you there.

And I could also live with it if a cache was left enabled but with very difficult-to-miss notifications that there's a problem - say, giant bold red text at the top and bottom of the cache description plus a note by the CO that's updated to always be the most recent log reading "NOT ALL OF THE COMPONENTS OF THIS CACHE ARE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE". I suspect that would keep most people from missing it.

As far as why people would ever check a cache page if it's disabled, I don't think it's crazy to think that people sitting on the final coordinates to an involved bonus cache might. I would anyway, just to see why it's disabled. Once I've solved something like that it definitely goes to the top of my "To Do" list. If the final coordinates aren't given on the cache page, a typical PQ isn't going to deliver the final coordinates directly to my GPSr anyway, so I'm going to have to be doing some sort of QSAK-fu regardless.

At the end of the day, I think the choice boils down to helping prevent someone from putting a lot of effort into finding a cache that may be impossible, vs. helping prevent someone from failing to search for a cache that may be available. They're both valid concerns, but I lean towards the former. In my own opinion, I think it's a bit worse to put many hours into something that can't be done, vs. not putting any effort into looking for something that could be found.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

Interpreting them. Whether or not a geocache is "in place" isn't entirely cut and dried here when everything required to find it isn't in place. I'm sure we could argue semantics back and forth like non-law-degree-holding-non-lawyers, but I suspect most would agree it's a bit of a grey area.

Except not being able to find the prerequisite TODAY does not prevent someone from finding the bonus. If I have the information to find the bonus whether it was from finding the prerequisite before it was disabled, a PAF, contacting the CO or just going to it with a previous finder and it's possible for me to put my name in the log book then the cache is "in place".

Since it's a grey area the decision should be left to the CO whether the bonus should be disabled or not. The CO would be in the better position to know how many people are still able to find the bonus.

7k · June 24, 2011

I'm not sure what the name of the logical fallacy you used but you made an argument that a bonus should be archived/altered when a prerequisite is archived and then conclude that disabling is ok.

Huh? That's not what I said at all. Here, I'll break it down for you:

Component cache archived -> bonus cache must also be archived, or listing changed.

Component cache disabled -> bonus cache must also be disabled, or listing changed.

Is that better?

1.8k · June 24, 2011

Except not being able to find the prerequisite TODAY does not prevent someone from finding the bonus. If I have the information to find the bonus whether it was from finding the prerequisite before it was disabled, a PAF, contacting the CO or just going to it with a previous finder and it's possible for me to put my name in the log book then the cache is "in place".

I'm not saying the cache should be archived. Just disabled. I'd feel the same way about a puzzle cache after the plaque with the information needed to calculate the final is removed. The container is still in place, and people who already visited the plaque can still log the final, sure. But the cache should be advertised differently.

As dfx says, if the listing is updated to include the missing information, that'd be cool too.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

I'll agree about the bonus cache disabling. The rest was agreeing with your statement above (bolded). One would assume the bonus was mentioned on the 'prerequisite' cache page though. My personal feeling is that the state of your GPS memory is really up to you.

It's not just the state of the GPS memory. It shows up on the geocaching map as disabled as well. If I have all the prerequisites already and I'm browsing the map looking for something to do the disabled final would prevent me from considering that cache. So here's my argument in a nutshell:

Disabling the final: Doesn't affect people who don't have the disabled prerequisite, affects people that do.

Not disabling the final: Doesn't affect people who don't have the disabled prerequisite and doesn't affect people that do.

Conclusion: Don't disable the final.

I have no issues with people not agreeing with the above argument. You can disable your finals, I can choose not to disable mine. The guidelines don't side with either of us. I do have an issue with a reviewer forcing their belief onto others when no rules were broken.

7k · June 24, 2011

Not disabling the final: Doesn't affect people who don't have the disabled prerequisite

Of course it does. If a component cache is missing, it means that the bonus cache cannot be done at the moment. I see a bonus cache, want to do it, head out to grab all the component caches, and one isn't there. Stumped.

It's just like a puzzle cache. If a piece of the information is unavailable, the cache must be disabled, because it cannot be done at the moment. You can still go and find the cache if you already have the coords, but it should still be disabled.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

Huh? That's not what I said at all. Here, I'll break it down for you:

Component cache archived -> bonus cache must also be archived, or listing changed.

Component cache disabled -> bonus cache must also be disabled, or listing changed.

Is that better?

Better that's it's clearer. Not better in the regard that because the first is true that the second must be true. The first situation is permanent, the second is temporary.

And as I said, most COs delay the archiving of the bonus to give people a chance to find it. So it's also perfectly fine to delay the disabling of the bonus.

In the second case the component cache either gets re-enabled or archived in which case your archived scenario applies.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

Of course it does. If a component cache is missing, it means that the bonus cache cannot be done at the moment.

Cannot be done by you. As long as someone can find the cache then it can be done. If nobody can find the cache the disabling it might be a good idea but that decision should be left to the CO.

I see a bonus cache, want to do it, head out to grab all the component caches, and one isn't there. Stumped.

You have found caches that can be logged so no time was wasted. You're now that much closer to finding the bonus that you were before. Nothing stops you from messaging the CO or a previous finder for the info.

If the series was a considerable distance away and you wanted to do it in one shot, why didn't you confirm all the components were in place?

It's just like a puzzle cache. If a piece of the information is unavailable, the cache must be disabled, because it cannot be done at the moment. You can still go and find the cache if you already have the coords, but it should still be disabled.

No, it's not like a puzzle cache (or multi). The bonus is a stand alone cache. The reason the puzzle or multi should be disabled is because you can't disable an individual stage in a multi or disable the puzzle piece in a puzzle. For a series you can disable an individual cache and any person starting from scratch can see this while people partway through can continue on.

7k · June 24, 2011

Better that's it's clearer. Not better in the regard that because the first is true that the second must be true. The first situation is permanent, the second is temporary.

What difference does it make? If a stage is permanently gone, then the final is also permanently not doable. And if a stage is temporarily gone, then the final is temporarily not doable.

And as I said, most COs delay the archiving of the bonus to give people a chance to find it. So it's also perfectly fine to delay the disabling of the bonus.

I don't know who those "most COs" are, but I don't think they should. If a piece of the puzzle is gone, then the cache should be immediately archived, or in the very least disabled. People can still log the cache if they have the coords and the container is still there.

Cannot be done by you. As long as someone can find the cache then it can be done. If nobody can find the cache the disabling it might be a good idea but that decision should be left to the CO.

Cannot be done be anyone who didn't already finish the required leg work, which is most everyone. It makes no sense to leave a cache enabled just in case, maybe, somebody already has the coords, while leaving everyone else in the dark.

You have found caches that can be logged so no time was wasted. You're now that much closer to finding the bonus that you were before. Nothing stops you from messaging the CO or a previous finder for the info.

Of course my time was wasted, I wanted to find that bonus cache, that's why I headed out. I don't care about finding those other caches, I only did them because I had to. Why should I need to confirm that the cache is doable? That's what the disable mechanism is there for.

No, it's not like a puzzle cache (or multi). The bonus is a stand alone cache. The reason the puzzle or multi should be disabled is because you can't disable an individual stage in a multi or disable the puzzle piece in a puzzle. For a series you can disable an individual cache and any person starting from scratch can see this while people partway through can continue on.

Yeah, the bonus is a standalone cache, just like a puzzle cache is a standalone cache and a multi is a standalone cache. All three depend on other things though. If one of the dependencies isn't available, the cache should be disabled. Simple as that. If a puzzle cache depends on a certain website being reachable, it should be disabled if it isn't, even if it's obvious that the website is down for the moment.

Edited June 24, 2011 by dfx

1.8k · June 24, 2011

I do have an issue with a reviewer forcing their belief onto others when no rules were broken.

If it were less grey, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. The reviewer is just doing the best he can given a limited set of information, a set of guidelines that thankfully aren't 1000 pages long, and, in almost all of the cases I've seen, ample opportunity for the CO to communicate or add information to the cache page after lots of DNFs and notes start piling up. I don't think a polite disable notice with the reviewer's concerns about the cache is that bad.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

I'm not saying the cache should be archived. Just disabled. I'd feel the same way about a puzzle cache after the plaque with the information needed to calculate the final is removed. The container is still in place, and people who already visited the plaque can still log the final, sure. But the cache should be advertised differently.

See my reply to dfx to the difference between the puzzle/multi cache and a series. For the series, it is being advertised differently: the cache that's missing is disabled. You can't do that for a puzzle or multi so have to disable the whole thing.

Which leads to this: Why just disable the the missing prerequisite and the bonus? By the arguments presented to me here the whole series should be disabled. Someone might start doing the non disabled caches and then find out the next one they need is disabled. But that then prevents people from starting the series even if they were find with completing it another day.

As dfx says, if the listing is updated to include the missing information, that'd be cool too.

I've seen that done. The CO updates the bonus to include the missing info or an offer to message the missing info to the cacher.

But that's my main argument. Let the CO manage their own cache.

1.8k · June 24, 2011

You have found caches that can be logged so no time was wasted.

I think some might disagree on this point. Whether or not I get a smiley for a component cache has almost nothing to do with whether or not I undertake a major geocaching challenge.

1.4k · June 24, 2011

If it were less grey, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. The reviewer is just doing the best he can given a limited set of information, a set of guidelines that thankfully aren't 1000 pages long, and, in almost all of the cases I've seen, ample opportunity for the CO to communicate or add information to the cache page after lots of DNFs and notes start piling up. I don't think a polite disable notice with the reviewer's concerns about the cache is that bad.

This is what I don't understand. Why would the bonus be getting the DNFs when another cache is missing?

1.8k · June 24, 2011

If nobody can find the cache the disabling it might be a good idea but that decision should be left to the CO.

I feel a little more strongly than you do that we shouldn't have active caches on this site that nobody can find. I'm happy that decision doesn't end with the CO.

Making a secret, unlisted cache

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