Ordinance Rights of Way and setting geocaches

[+Fianccetto]

From another discussion emerged the topic of Rights of Way in England & Wales (ordinance footpaths, bridleways and restricted byways ( definitions). (Separate laws apply in Scotland, etc.)

 

I would like to place a circular cache series in our area, in fact there are several possibilities, but there are some landowners who have planted crops over the paths, or the field boundaries have changed, a path looks well maintained at the front of a property but out the back brambles and debris block the way, or the path stops dead at a busy highway which would be inadvisable to bring children to. (Just a few examples.) I would like some advice about the best way to go about deciding on a route for a round cache walk and what to do in the case of difficulties such as these.

 

This isn't on sensitive nature reserves (although I'm awaiting for permission to set some caches on land life that) this is on public Rights of Way, on farmland (where there is no requirement from Groundspeak to ask the landowner, and I don't know who the landowner is, or who to contact in the council.)

 

I've seen a lot of properties where the footpath goes through someone's garden and they are fine with it, but other times when the householder has made it look fine at the front of the property where the blue footpath sign is but then encouraged it to be blocked by debris or brambles just the other side of their property.

 

So the other side of it is, what do you do when you are out caching and this kind of thing happens and you are on a ROW (or even a footpath with permissive access)? If you want to take if further and try to improve the situation for the next walkers to use the path, how do you track down the Council person to report this behaviour to who might be able to clear up the issue with the property owner? Is there anything else geocachers can do to improve these situations?

[+*mouse*]

Contact your local Rights of Way officer. They're job is to keep paths clear and so will help you to gain access to paths.

 

HOWEVER if a landowner is anti walkers, I suspect they will be even more anti caching. Is this really somewhere you want to bring people? To a piece of land where walkers are actively dicouraged? Even if they do have the legal right to walk there?

[+Fianccetto]

Contact your local Rights of Way officer. They're job is to keep paths clear and so will help you to gain access to paths.

 

Thanks. Not easy to find a named person locally, but I've found a wealth of information by just looking up Rights of Way' and my county.

 

"You may remove enough of an obstruction on a public right

of way to get by or else you may take a short detour to get

around it, but be careful not to trespass on another

owner’s land. Be aware however that if, for instance, you

cut a fence or wire across a public right of way, thereby

allowing stock to escape onto a road or into a crop, you

could be liable for damages. It is best to report the

obstruction to the county council."

 

Also an address of the ROW team and this:

 

"If you wish to tell us about a problem,

please write rather than telephone. Include

a sketch plan or a copy of a map/grid reference to

assist in identifying the exact location of the problem.

If possible, identify the landowner and/or tenant and

their address, plus any other relevant information.

Remember that your Parish or Town Council may be

prepared to handle some issues at a local level,

particularly those relating to vegetation clearance, and

other relatively straightforward matters, so consider

approaching them first.

Once you have reported a problem to us, please be

patient. As far as possible, we try to maximise the level

of staff time allocated to resolving problems, which can

impact upon the ability to keep customers advised."

 

HOWEVER if a landowner is anti walkers, I suspect they will be even more anti caching. Is this really somewhere you want to bring people? To a piece of land where walkers are actively dicouraged? Even if they do have the legal right to walk there?

 

That was my immediate thought on it. That was why I asked how best to improve the situation (rather than 'how can I get my own way'). I'm very much aware, from recently visiting the area I grew up in and comparing where we now live, how little I know about our local landowners here and the history of how the various footpaths have changed over the years. It doesn't take much to realise that there have been a lot of new roads, or widened roads around here which would have made a difference to farmer's land and footpath access, and so the byway giving access to all vehicles is given more rights than the footpath just for walkers. That's just one side of things though. Something else caught my interest:

 

"There are a number of ways you can help look after the

public rights of way in our beautiful county.

...e.g.... Become a parish volunteer. Contact your local parish

council and offer to become a footpath volunteer: Many

parish councils need help with this role. Across the

county, parish volunteers help in a variety of different

ways. Some carry out path surveys and undertake minor

maintenance, whilst others comment on planning

applications that affect local rights of way. Some parishes

are able to get a small group of local volunteers together

to undertake survey and maintenance work. We can assist

with the provision of tools and protective clothing for

such groups where they are helping with the maintenance

of local paths. "

 

I might just do that - although I don't live in a parish, I live in a city!

[+mcwomble]

Argh!!!

 

:mad: :mad: :mad: It's ORDNANCE!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

 

Sorry my little bete noir

[+Happy Humphrey]

It doesn't really matter if a landowner is "anti walker". If a particular landowner has such an attitude problem, the worst thing he can do is block footpaths or make them difficult to find. That just means that walkers will have to spend more time on his land and may well stray from the right of way. A well-maintained RoW is a great boon for the land manager as it causes fewer problems with people straying into the wrong areas.

 

And it's a Right of way, not something that the landowner can consider a privilege. We have no need to apologise or be shy about using a right of way. Many such paths were there when the landowner took over management of the land - and don't forget that in most cases these people are allowed to exploit the land for their own profit. It's not their private gardens.

[+Fianccetto]

Argh!!!

 

:mad: :mad: :mad: It's ORDNANCE!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

 

Sorry my little bete noir

 

Sorry.

 

Ordnance, ordnance, ordnance.

 

Why is it ordnance? Where does the word come from (that might help me to remember it.)

[+The Patrician]

"It was back in 1791, whilst planning defences to repel any invasion, that the Government realised the South Coast of England needed to be comprehensively and accurately mapped. So it instructed its Board of Ordnance – the defence ministry of the day – to carry out the necessary survey work."

 

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/about-us/our-history/index.html

[Alan White]

The responsibility for overseeing ROWs in England and Wales is with the local highway authority: principally the county council or unitary authority. Note that this is a statutory responsibility: they must allocate resources to managing ROWs and responding to comments from the public. The highway authority must sign ROWs where they leave metalled roads, and are responsible for maintaining the surface of the path.

 

A landowner also has certain responsbilities. He must not obstruct a ROW ("obstruct" has been determined in law to mean "not make inconvenient to use"); he must not remove signs or place signs intended to mislead; and he must maintain the route.

 

Of course, as users of the ROWs we also have responsbilities as well as rights. For example, we must not cycle on footpaths (except with permission of the landowner) and we must stick as closely as possible to the route of the ROW even in circumstances when it seems odd to do so. I was recently berated by another cacher (in a log - he didn't have the wit to contact me directly) for taking a direct route through a crop where the farmer hadn't left a path as he's required to. The other cacher went round the edge, thus was trespassing.

 

The Ramblers' Association has an excellent summary here.

 

I've reported problems with ROWs to many highway authorities and have always had a thankful and helpful reply*. I urge anyone who encounters a problem with a ROW to report it: authorities can only fix problems they know about and it's in all our interests to ensure that ROWs are kept open. Most authorities have online forms and mapping to report problems.

 

* That said, I reported a problem to Surrey CC over a week ago and haven't heard anything at all. Must chase them up.

[+keehotee]

Contact your local Rights of Way officer. They're job is to keep paths clear and so will help you to gain access to paths.

 

HOWEVER if a landowner is anti walkers, I suspect they will be even more anti caching. Is this really somewhere you want to bring people? To a piece of land where walkers are actively dicouraged? Even if they do have the legal right to walk there?

 

*mouse* touched on a very valid point.

 

A right of way is just that - a way on which you have the right to pass and repass, and nothing else.

Most public footpaths in England cross private property, and even if the path is clear enough for you to walk along you will still need the permission of the landowner to do anything but walk along it - including hiding tupperware in the hedge!

[+Fianccetto]

It doesn't really matter if a landowner is "anti walker". If a particular landowner has such an attitude problem, the worst thing he can do is block footpaths or make them difficult to find. That just means that walkers will have to spend more time on his land and may well stray from the right of way. A well-maintained RoW is a great boon for the land manager as it causes fewer problems with people straying into the wrong areas.

 

I agree in principle (that RoWs are a legal right, not something we should need to ask for) but sometimes landowners seem to find a way to push the problem onto neighbours' land. From the way these problems get left in some places, it seems that walkers tend to just give up and not come back if there's an obstruction, or unwillingly conspire with the guilty landowner to use a neighbour's land just to get to a better maintained part of the RoW. In this time of cutbacks, I'm concerned that if walkers in my county don't speak up, it will be a case of 'use it or lose it' and in some cases, that makes large areas of footpaths inaccessible, just because of one landowner on a small plot of land.

 

Sometimes, though, these paths are in someone's small private garden they don't own or manage the surrounding land. The path might squeeze right by the owner's house or garage (saw one like this at the weekend) giving walkers a view into their house, and no room for a fence to stop them wandering off the path (or if a fence is put up, the owner is giving a slice of their garden away while still being responsible for the upkeep). I wouldn't want to delibarately take walkers to a place like that, I'd want to find a path around it to take them to instead if possible.

 

And it's a Right of way, not something that the landowner can consider a privilege. We have no need to apologise or be shy about using a right of way.

 

 

Totally agree with you. Am I right in thinking though, that if a path is not used for 365 consecutive days, a landowner can apply for it to be changed to be private, with no RoW or permissive access?

 

 

Many such paths were there when the landowner took over management of the land - and don't forget that in most cases these people are allowed to exploit the land for their own profit.

 

I agree, when the landowners have large areas of land. There was quite a fight in some areas when small farms were bought up by bigger, more corporate type landowners, smaller fields were knocked together and ancient footpaths were in danger of being lost through disuse. If I am remembering right, that was going on around where/when I grew up, and many of the locals put up a long fight to get the footpaths either protected, or reinstated - by using the paths often, and keeping the subject in the local news. It's probably thanks to them that there is now an impressive network of footpaths in the area which go far beyond the statutory RoW.

[Alan White]

Contact your local Rights of Way officer. They're job is to keep paths clear and so will help you to gain access to paths.

 

HOWEVER if a landowner is anti walkers, I suspect they will be even more anti caching. Is this really somewhere you want to bring people? To a piece of land where walkers are actively dicouraged? Even if they do have the legal right to walk there?

 

*mouse* touched on a very valid point.

Indeed, but misses the point that the cache may not be on land owned by the obstructive landowner but one needs to use that land to reach the cache.

 

Walkers, cyclists, horseriders and cachers should not allow themselves to be "actively discouraged". Rights of way are the Queen's highway and we all have a right to use them.

[+Moote]

May I remind everyone that an OS map having a marked public right of way on it, does not mean that is a right of way, things change, and the maps often have to catch up. It's always best to check with the recognized body in the area, which can also include National Park Authorities

[Alan White]

Am I right in thinking though, that if a path is not used for 365 consecutive days, a landowner can apply for it to be changed to be private, with no RoW or permissive access?

Not specifically. A landowner may apply to extinguish a ROW at any time but only under certain conditions and with the approval of the highway authority, again under certain conditions. Extinguishing a ROW is rare.

 

You may be thinking of other paths where access is permitted (i.e. not ROWs). These are sometimes closed one day a year to avoid a claim that the path has become a ROW by default (after 20 years IIRC).

[+Fianccetto]

 

You may be thinking of other paths where access is permitted (i.e. not ROWs). These are sometimes closed one day a year to avoid a claim that the path has become a ROW by default (after 20 years IIRC).

 

Yes, that must be what I am thinking of.

[+Fianccetto]

May I remind everyone that an OS map having a marked public right of way on it, does not mean that is a right of way, things change, and the maps often have to catch up. It's always best to check with the recognized body in the area, which can also include National Park Authorities

 

I can see that now, thank you. I should have used the term 'Definitive Map' if any, I think. These are available online, with a bit of searching. I've found our county's, so am guessing it is accessible through the various County Council websites.

 

Worth adding that just because a RoW isn't on an OS map, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, either, and the scale of the maps these days don't give a clear enough indication of where a path is.

[+Happy Humphrey]

We had a debate on "definitive maps" some time ago, in relation to 4WD use of "BOATS". No-one is really going to go and check the definitive map just so they can be sure that their route is 100% legal.

 

So for practical purposes, if you have an up-to-date OS map you'll be fine following the marked footpaths. If a path has changed, there will normally be sufficient signage to let you know. In the unlikely even that you're challenged, it would be unreasonable for a landowner to accuse you of trespass when you can demonstrate that the footpath is public to the best of your knowledge and you were using it in good faith. Such a challenge has never happened to me in thousands of miles of walking.

 

As far as privacy goes; I wouldn't worry for a moment if you recommend a footpath that happens to go past someone's garden. The house owner will be fully aware of the path and if they don't bother with any screening then they most likely don't care. You can walk through any town or village and look over peoples' gardens and into their houses. So what. Obviously you don't actually enter the garden, and if a high hedge or fence has been used as a screen you respect the privacy of the occupier. I wouldn't place a cache which has a view into someone's private garden or house either, but that's common sense. I would be happy to recommend an approach route along any public footpath, however.

 

N.B. I agree with Alan that you should take the exact line of a marked RoW, even if this involves trampling crops (a farmer is supposed to leave a fallow strip to walk through). Obviously, you need to be sure that you're definitely on the line of the path; but with GPS that should be easy.

[+Moote]

May I remind everyone that an OS map having a marked public right of way on it, does not mean that is a right of way, things change, and the maps often have to catch up. It's always best to check with the recognized body in the area, which can also include National Park Authorities

 

I can see that now, thank you. I should have used the term 'Definitive Map' if any, I think. These are available online, with a bit of searching. I've found our county's, so am guessing it is accessible through the various County Council websites.

 

Worth adding that just because a RoW isn't on an OS map, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, either, and the scale of the maps these days don't give a clear enough indication of where a path is.

 

Magic Map tries to stay up to date, it's a big task though as the data comes from many bodies

 

Magic Map

 

[I!]

@OP, if it's a Gloucestershire r.o.w. then prow@gloucestershire.gov.uk will help (I've used them in the past).

[+Fianccetto]

Yes, it is Gloucestershire thanks, found that site. ...and then looked at the Public Rights of Way Improvement Plans which got interesting (Gloucestershire came off as one of the poorer responders) although the information is dated and does not accurately reflect the state or play of the actual RoW (just how quick & efficient each county is at responding to the questionnaire). Then I got onto Educational Sites, as these highlight interesting farmers who work with the council and it ties in with another interest if mine. (Using local products in craft projects). I do want to work with a landowner, and perhaps volunteering my time to help a good one (or two) to thrive better might be preferable to sitting around waiting for verdicts from the council, or going around looking for places where landowners are changing the route of the footpaths.

 

What is clear is that each cache placement is pretty unique, and a variety of laws and permissions apply which have a rich and very varied history.

 

It seems that placing a cache in a sensitive area like a nature reserve or SSSI is more straightforward than on a PRoW on private land, as the magic maps show who to contact about placing a cache on the sensitive areas (and the reviewer will ask about permissions of caches placed in these areas) while it is all left to the CO to research on private land with public footpath. (Though I am guessing that most COs do not ask the landowners for permission if a cache is placed in a hedge of a field on farmland).

[+eusty]

N.B. I agree with Alan that you should take the exact line of a marked RoW, even if this involves trampling crops (a farmer is supposed to leave a fallow strip to walk through). Obviously, you need to be sure that you're definitely on the line of the path; but with GPS that should be easy.

I would say do this if there is no other easy way. Recently there was a ROW across a field, but there was no fallow pathway cleared. So rather than trample across his crops we walked around the field, it was only another 50 yards on our route, but it could have saved any confrontation if the farmer was there.

 

 

[+Fianccetto]

I'd like some advice about placing caches on a route to highlight a good walk on a ROW where the landowner is blocking the ROW.

...if you know that the landowner is blocking the ROW then you should report that and have it resolved before placing caches there. Placing caches on the route could cause problems for cachers and/or antagonise an obviously already hostile landowner. Let the highway authority deal with it.

 

I'm still looking at it from different angles and documenting what I find before I decide how to proceed, but it looks like the official footpath is being neglected, while a private byway is left open to interpretation as an alternative. It's not the first time I've come across difficulties with RoW and land ownership rights/complications in this county and there is probably more than meets the eye here, so I'm not going to assume anything. I feel very much the alien, as there's a number of sets of land management rights at play in Gloucestershire I haven't come across before (of just the ones I know) and I don't know the history of the site.

 

There was a cache series we walked a little while ago where we went the wrong way around and unwittingly followed a footpath sign over a stile and then went 3 sides around someone's garden to come out over a stile and a footbridge. The problem was that the path then petered out and all that was left was one which would have taken us many miles out of our way, in the wrong direction. We would have liked to return through the garden, back to the road, but the householders had let their angry dog out and I had no idea what to do (then) other than retreat away from it. We found the best way forward by going around the edge of the crops until we found each overgrown stile (with 'permissive access' marker, and details about the grant received by the landowner in exchange!) There were no pathways made through the crops to of from these stiles, so we had to loop around each and every field through tall nettles, weeds and crops to finally get to the farm gate back to the lane.

 

I know from looking at properties to buy that land ownership and deeds of houses are not all cut and dried. Some of the properties had RoW passing over one edge of the gardens (not big properties) and sometimes the then owners were less than positive about them (one suggesting to block the path at the back of the property, beyond their boundary so the few walkers who turn up would come back out to the front of the property but be discouraged from ever returning. I did say I'd be encouraging walkers if I had the property and I'd see it as an asset and not something to try to prevent (actually, I saw it as a great place to clear up and place caches if it were mine) but she couldn't quite take that in, don't think she had ever had that reaction before, which made me thing the problem is quite widespread in the area.)

 

Finding a well marked, well maintained footpath is becoming more of a nirvana experience than finding a cache for me now. Summat wrong with that - I'd better get out and do some caching tomorrow!

[+Happy Humphrey]

Some of the properties had RoW passing over one edge of the gardens (not big properties) and sometimes the then owners were less than positive about them (one suggesting to block the path at the back of the property, beyond their boundary so the few walkers who turn up would come back out to the front of the property but be discouraged from ever returning.

If I found a RoW like that I'd take great delight in making several attempts to follow the correct route, spending quite a bit of time climbing over fences and into and out of gardens before knocking on doors and asking which way I should be going...that might make them (and the neighbours) consider whether a clear and nicely-marked path may serve their interests better.

 

The worst I've seen on my treks across Britain is occasional blocking of paths or stiles, making a detour through a field necessary, and signs demonstrating that no-one is welcome on that piece of our countryside. Mostly these days there are plenty of good paths. However, I must admit that much of my walking has been along recognised "ways" (Heart Of England Way being an example) so I've probably been spoilt.

[+The Patrician]

I must be spoilt round here (Worcestershire/Herefordshire border). Public footpaths are generally well marked, not just where they leave the road but at stiles and gates too, and I've never had any bother with landowners that I can recall, even when going through someone's garden (we did ask him where the path went, and he pretended not to know, but no trouble).

[team tisri]

I must be spoilt round here (Worcestershire/Herefordshire border). Public footpaths are generally well marked, not just where they leave the road but at stiles and gates too, and I've never had any bother with landowners that I can recall, even when going through someone's garden (we did ask him where the path went, and he pretended not to know, but no trouble).

 

Reminds me of a series we did near the New Forest, where we crossed a stile and saw a sign saying "Public footpath" pointing across a field. About 100 yards away were two red posts, almost like a skiing slalom gate. So we aimed at those and as we approached them we could see another pair of posts. So we crossed a field via a nice wide well marked right of way. No doubt where the path went, and no reason not to stay on the path.

 

It seems like that everyone wins - as soon as it's not clear where the path goes the landowner will inevitably deal with people wandering off the path because they didn't know where it went.

[Alan White]

it could have saved any confrontation if the farmer was there.

Not necessarily. There've been reports of confrontations with farmers because walkers didn't follow the right of way in the circumstances you describe.

 

Bottom line: if you're walking on the right of way then there can be no problem. Anything else invites difficulties.

[+The Patrician]

 

Reminds me of a series we did near the New Forest, where we crossed a stile and saw a sign saying "Public footpath" pointing across a field. About 100 yards away were two red posts, almost like a skiing slalom gate. So we aimed at those and as we approached them we could see another pair of posts. So we crossed a field via a nice wide well marked right of way. No doubt where the path went, and no reason not to stay on the path.

 

It seems like that everyone wins - as soon as it's not clear where the path goes the landowner will inevitably deal with people wandering off the path because they didn't know where it went.

 

Our local golf course has several bridleways and footpaths across it and where they're not obvious, across fairways etc, the path line is marked with nice clear white posts to aim for, which is an excellent idea. It's not exactly common, but not unknown, for this idea to be used on paths across fields around here.

[+Fianccetto]

Some of the properties had RoW passing over one edge of the gardens (not big properties) and sometimes the then owners were less than positive about them (one suggesting to block the path at the back of the property, beyond their boundary so the few walkers who turn up would come back out to the front of the property but be discouraged from ever returning.

If I found a RoW like that I'd take great delight in making several attempts to follow the correct route, spending quite a bit of time climbing over fences and into and out of gardens before knocking on doors and asking which way I should be going...that might make them (and the neighbours) consider whether a clear and nicely-marked path may serve their interests better.

Ah well, I was looking to see whether to buy that property so the owner would have recognised me if I'd gone back there. It was a few years ago, so probably sold by now, and the neighbouring land is owned by The Forestry Commission, so I'll take a hike out that way when the school holidays are over and I have more time. I'm glad of a bit of support on this (that it is worth spending a bit of time on the RoW and not giving up) thanks.

 

The worst I've seen on my treks across Britain is occasional blocking of paths or stiles, making a detour through a field necessary, and signs demonstrating that no-one is welcome on that piece of our countryside. Mostly these days there are plenty of good paths. However, I must admit that much of my walking has been along recognised "ways" (Heart Of England Way being an example) so I've probably been spoilt.

 

I do prefer to walk in a circle back to where I parked, rather than along part of a Way and back the way I came. I have tried doing some of the Cotswold Way, which has been magnificent and the Gloucestershire Way has its own glorious charm. The Wysis Way is pretty hit and miss and badly waymarked, sometimes impassable in our (patchy) experience which is a shame because there is no reason it shouldn't be as good as the others with some better management. I won't be put off now by these few isolated experiences. There are some great places to walk very near here (on a city nature reserve with some SSSI) and I'm building up a good idea of the best paths and a variety of choices of places/ways to hide caches, should I be granted some permission to. It is the farm land beyond this, where a great round walk is suggesting itself on the map, but on the ground it has brambly stiles and gaps in hedges overgrown with nettles with and no indication of where the footpath officially is (but plenty of footfall taking the wrong route). I won't be knocking on the adjacent farm door over it (there's a dog there) I will just have to contact the PRoW team and meanwhile keep walking.