A new type of geocache

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Some of you are probably groaning just from reading the title, but I think this might have some merit and thought I'd open up a discussion before *possibly* posting this idea to the Feedback site.

 

The idea is inspired by the recent Dodge Journey give-a-way, the first, as many know was found by a geocacher. First, of all, I'm not suggesting a new type of geocache, but a different kind of game that could be hosted on the geocaching web site. In order to avoid any confusion I won't call the item to be found a cache, but for the purposes of this discussion, let's call it a "booty" as in Pirates booty.

 

Essentially, I'm thinking of a take-off of "hide something somewhere, find it and it's yours". So the idea goes like this. Someone has an item of some sort, probably of some value in between your average geocaching swag and a new car (most likely, closer the the former), Let's say you buy a new digital camera and have an old 2 mega pixel camera that you're just not going to use. So you find some remote place and hide the booty (perhaps, in a water proof container).

 

The submission and review process would be similar to a mystery cache submission. The reviewer would be able to see the actual coordinates, but no "posted coordinates" would show up. Instead, it could be user generated area such as "New York City" or "Minnesota" or even "Italy". The Booty listing would describe what other will be looking for, perhaps some background about why the booty is being hidden, but not much more. Initially, it would nearly impossible for anyone to find the booty.

 

Then the booty owner could post, as owner logs, clues. Perhaps the first clue might be something like:

 

North: The ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything.

West: ____ trombones.

 

The answer, of course, would be 42 and 76, giving away the most significant digits of the coordinates of the booty.

 

Each subsequent clue (which could consist of riddles, photos, GC numbers of caches one must find or coordinates which might contain a clue to be deciphered to obtain a number, etc) would narrow down the location of the booty.

 

One the booty was claimed (which would necessitate a new log type) the listing would be archived. The first person to find the booty may choose not to take it. I could imagine something like requiring photo evidence of the claim before a booty listing is archived.

 

There would be a few difference with regard to the guidelines.

 

The cache/booty permanence guideline would not apply since the item would be gone as soon as it was claimed. Since there would be no cache permanence guideline, vacation booty hides could be allowed.

 

Guidelines related to digging, modifications to existing structures, prohibited locations such as schools, RxR tracks, and commercial established *would* apply to a booty hide. Adequate permission would be required. The proximity guideline should also apply, if only to prevent someone mistaking a booty hide from a cache and vice-versa.

 

The logs would likely be a little more interactive but because the booty would eventually be archived I don't really see it as and issue. In face, I did a mystery cache once where the CO answered yes/no questions about the puzzle until it was solved. The interaction between the CO (perhaps, booty is not the best name) and those working on the puzzle was quite fun.

 

Booty finds/claims would not count in the geocache find count, but *could* be included on a users stats page, so one could in which counties, states, countries in which they've found booty.

 

As I see it, this new type of "cache" could have a few advantages but still be pretty similar to traditional geocaching.

 

While, a booty hider might initially spend a few bucks to create a booty that is sufficiently interesting (though, some may just enjoy the game of figuring out where it is and confirming the find), there wouldn't be any long term maintenance requirements.

 

For those that enjoy the FTF game, a booty hide would be all about FTF.

 

Discuss.

[+wildchld97]

Ok..a "trash to cache" hide. I'm actually feelin' it. I was actually joking about the "trash" part..but it does have a nice ring. lol.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Ok..a "trash to cache" hide. I'm actually feelin' it. I was actually joking about the "trash" part..but it does have a nice ring. lol.

 

I'm certainly not married to the "booty" term, though it would be fun to instead of saying that a cache has been published, that the publication of a booty hide would be a referred to as a "booty call".

 

Instead of "trash to cache" it could be "trash to treasure", as in, One person's trash is another person's treasure.

[+G & C]

Not to question the reviewers integrity, but I would be a little skeptical to hide something of any real value meant for a cacher to have to find, and let them have access to the actual location...

[+Planet]

FTFTF - First To Fistfight To Find.

[+wildchld97]

can someone please hide the coord's to a decent car? My geobeast is about to have her next coronary.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Not to question the reviewers integrity, but I would be a little skeptical to hide something of any real value meant for a cacher to have to find, and let them have access to the actual location...

 

Reviewers have access to the actual location for mystery caches now, and know when and where traditional and multi caches are not only located, but exactly when they'll be published. I don't recall that I have ever heard of a reviewer abusing access to this information, and I've seen some fairly substantial FTF prizes being offered.

It's necessary for reviewers to have access to the final coordinates in order to determine if there are proximity issues, or if more than adequate permission is required.

[+captnemo]

Not sure of the point? Make it a regular cache with a great FTF prize that way the FTFer's would have their battle royal and then the rest of the caching world would enjoy the hide. You still could make it a puzzle cache.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Not sure of the point? Make it a regular cache with a great FTF prize that way the FTFer's would have their battle royal and then the rest of the caching world would enjoy the hide. You still could make it a puzzle cache.

It's the lack of permanence that makes this unique. I think I like it.

[+BlueDeuce]

Interesting idea. It has potential but as it stands I think it should be a sub-game where the item is left in the cache. Why? Because either you are taking away from decent cache locations or you are placing items in locations that wouldn't even be considered for a decent cache. Littering with a purpose.

 

Keep it inside a cache and you'll have better PR.

 

 

bd

Edited September 29, 2011 by BlueDeuce

[knowschad]

I've got a good question here:

 

Do I actually need to own the object I'm giving away, or would it be OK if, say, I posted the coordinates for my ex's car?

[+SwineFlew]

I've got a good question here:

 

Do I actually need to own the object I'm giving away, or would it be OK if, say, I posted the coordinates for my ex's car?

 

What is the model and year? Thats the first clue.

[+GeoBain]

I've got a good question here:

 

Do I actually need to own the object I'm giving away, or would it be OK if, say, I posted the coordinates for my ex's car?

 

What is the model and year? Thats the first clue.

 

The first clue is he's selling a car. Dogs don't drive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or do they?

[AZcachemeister]

I seem to recall something like this having been brought up before.

Then (as now) the cache permanence guideline would seem to eliminate the possibility of such a cache type.

That being said, you could certainly include some righteous FTF swag in your cache, or even include the co-ordinates to a separate location where the FTF could reap their amazing reward.

[knowschad]

I seem to recall something like this having been brought up before.

Then (as now) the cache permanence guideline would seem to eliminate the possibility of such a cache type.

That being said, you could certainly include some righteous FTF swag in your cache, or even include the co-ordinates to a separate location where the FTF could reap their amazing reward.

Cache permanence guideline only applies to the existing cache types. This is a new type. It would need its own set of guidelines. The first would probably be that you must own the object that you are giving away. No ex's cars, no roudy neighbor's motorcycles, no nearby trailer parks, no matter how much you hate them.

[AZcachemeister]

 

Cache permanence guideline only applies to the existing cache types. This is a new type. It would need its own set of guidelines. The first would probably be that you must own the object that you are giving away. No ex's cars, no roudy neighbor's motorcycles, no nearby trailer parks, no matter how much you hate them.

 

Oh.

This new cache type will have it's own set of guidelines?

I totally overlooked that possibility.

[+taggdog]

So instead of putting all my junk I don't want on craigslist, I can just go put in the woods and don't have to bother with people coming to my house. Sounds ok to me.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Interesting idea. It has potential but as it stands I think it should be a sub-game where the item is left in the cache. Why? Because either you are taking away from decent cache locations or you are placing items in locations that wouldn't even be considered for a decent cache. Littering with a purpose.

 

Keep it inside a cache and you'll have better PR.

 

bd

 

From my reading of the forums over the past few years it seems that more that a few people have complained about sub-par caches taking up a good location where a better container could be placed. There also seems to be more than a few caches placed in sucky locations. I'm not seeing what the argument here against my idea that doesn't already exist now unless there is some sort of objection about finding an item in a location where a cache could be hidden and not getting a smiley for the effort.

 

If someone is going to litter it would seem rather silly to use an online web site that give the location of their litter. I suppose one of the features of the game could be that if three people found the booty but none of them took it, that the owner of the listing would be strongly encouraged to archive the listing and go out and retrieve the item themselves.

 

Obviously, using the game to promote or encourage doing anything illegal would not be allowed, no matter how much you dislike your ex.

[tomowens]

I've got a good question here:

 

Do I actually need to own the object I'm giving away, or would it be OK if, say, I posted the coordinates for my ex's car?

 

What is the model and year? Thats the first clue.

 

Of the ex or the car?

[+Road Rabbit]

The submission and review process would be similar to a mystery cache submission. The reviewer would be able to see the actual coordinates, but no "posted coordinates" would show up. Instead, it could be user generated area such as "New York City" or "Minnesota" or even "Italy". The Booty listing would describe what other will be looking for, perhaps some background about why the booty is being hidden, but not much more. Initially, it would nearly impossible for anyone to find the booty.

 

Then the booty owner could post, as owner logs, clues. Perhaps the first clue might be something like:

 

North: The ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything.

West: ____ trombones.

 

The answer, of course, would be 42 and 76, giving away the most significant digits of the coordinates of the booty.

 

Each subsequent clue (which could consist of riddles, photos, GC numbers of caches one must find or coordinates which might contain a clue to be deciphered to obtain a number, etc) would narrow down the location of the booty.

 

It sounds like that could all be accomplished with a rather complex and far ranging Wherigo.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The submission and review process would be similar to a mystery cache submission. The reviewer would be able to see the actual coordinates, but no "posted coordinates" would show up. Instead, it could be user generated area such as "New York City" or "Minnesota" or even "Italy". The Booty listing would describe what other will be looking for, perhaps some background about why the booty is being hidden, but not much more. Initially, it would nearly impossible for anyone to find the booty.

 

Then the booty owner could post, as owner logs, clues. Perhaps the first clue might be something like:

 

North: The ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything.

West: ____ trombones.

 

The answer, of course, would be 42 and 76, giving away the most significant digits of the coordinates of the booty.

 

Each subsequent clue (which could consist of riddles, photos, GC numbers of caches one must find or coordinates which might contain a clue to be deciphered to obtain a number, etc) would narrow down the location of the booty.

 

It sounds like that could all be accomplished with a rather complex and far ranging Wherigo.

 

Except that a key component of the type of game I'm suggesting is that the permanence guideline would not apply. A Wherigo cache must adhere to that guideline. My suggestion would also not require a device capable of doing Wherigo caches.

[+The Blorenges]

I rather like your idea.

 

Would you need to have some sort of "minimum value" requirement for the hidden item? Or would it be enough just to mention what the item is in the listing? Would the reviewer be required to make a judgement call on the suitablility of the booty involved. A booty cache containing an ordinary geocoin - OK? One containing a rather rare geocoin - even better? How about slightly worn but still good quality pair of hiking boots size 10?

 

Anyway... it's interesting...

 

I wonder whether Groundspeak have already considered this sort of idea for a cache type... and maybe dismissed it for reason not immediately apparent.

 

MrsB

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I rather like your idea.

 

Would you need to have some sort of "minimum value" requirement for the hidden item? Or would it be enough just to mention what the item is in the listing? Would the reviewer be required to make a judgement call on the suitablility of the booty involved. A booty cache containing an ordinary geocoin - OK? One containing a rather rare geocoin - even better? How about slightly worn but still good quality pair of hiking boots size 10?

 

Anyway... it's interesting...

 

I suggested earlier the idea that if the item is found three times, but not taken, that the owner should be strongly encouraged to go out and retrieve it and archive the listing. If the item really is of marginal value there might be some that will re-gift it for another hide. In that case, the original hide might be created with a "mystery item" and part of the fun will be finding something that might not be valuable but might be unusual. If the item is complete junk, it would be pretty silly to use an online website to advertise where someone has littered.

 

I wonder whether Groundspeak have already considered this sort of idea for a cache type... and maybe dismissed it for reason not immediately apparent.

 

MrsB

 

I don't know, but Dodge is not the only company that has used the "we've hidden something, if you can find it, you can have it" promotional campaign. Canadian Club (the whiskey) has a "Hide A Case" has hidden 25 cases of whiskey over the past 20 years and has recently revived the promotion with more cases and a $100,000 prize.

 

We've seen Groundspeak allow companies like Jeep and Geico use the game for promotional campaigns, and as much as I dislike commercialization in geocaches I think there may be a business model for Groundspeak here. I've been to numerous events where GS has donated items, usually sold through their store, as raffle items. Imagine if GS hid a few hundred Signal plush dolls around the world (working with geocachers to do the hiding) and then used their infrastructure to run a "if you can find it, you can have it" game. I hadn't noticed this before, but if you go to the "Shop" page, you can even buy GPS receivers from Garmin, Magellan, Lowrance, Delorme and the Geomate from shop.geocaching.com. GS could sell an advertising mechanism to their current (and new) commercial partners in the form of a "if you can find it, you can have it" promotional campaign tool.

 

The vendors would have to donate items (or perhaps a $100 gift certificate) and pay GS some amount of money for advertising. The vendors could also advertise the promotion outside the GS site, which might bring non-geocachers to the GS site for a chance to find the items. Geocachers would have the opportunity to find, and keep, something of value that they might use specifically for geocaching.

 

Most of the infrastructure for this new type of game is already in place and it doesn't seem to me that the additions/changes that would have to be made would be difficult to implement.

[+terrkan78]

If the item being hidden is halfway decent, I imagine the competition could be pretty stiff. It's pretty stiff right now just for FTF bragging rights.

 

Some potential problems:

 

1. GZ could get pretty trashed if the item being sought is small enough to hide well, especially if someone finds it and doesn't tell the rest of the world that it's been found (as some FTFers like to do).

 

2. The same few people would find all the good booty. Yes, I know, you snooze, you lose. But jealousy already rears it's head in the forums occasionally over "hogging the FTFs." It could be even more so with something that actually has value. Could it take the "friendly competition" factor and intensify it into something not very friendly? Probably depends on just how valuable the booty is. $10 geocoins, maybe not so much. But a $100 camera? I don't know. A $10,000 car? Better bring your gun.

 

I think it's an intriguing idea. If I hid one I'd put it out somewhere requiring a several mile hike, and I'm not sure I'd bother to hunt for ones hidden around town (because I tend to snooze too long).

[+SwineFlew]

If the item being hidden is halfway decent, I imagine the competition could be pretty stiff. It's pretty stiff right now just for FTF bragging rights.

 

Some potential problems:

 

1. GZ could get pretty trashed if the item being sought is small enough to hide well, especially if someone finds it and doesn't tell the rest of the world that it's been found (as some FTFers like to do).

 

2. The same few people would find all the good booty. Yes, I know, you snooze, you lose. But jealousy already rears it's head in the forums occasionally over "hogging the FTFs." It could be even more so with something that actually has value. Could it take the "friendly competition" factor and intensify it into something not very friendly? Probably depends on just how valuable the booty is. $10 geocoins, maybe not so much. But a $100 camera? I don't know. A $10,000 car? Better bring your gun.

 

I think it's an intriguing idea. If I hid one I'd put it out somewhere requiring a several mile hike, and I'm not sure I'd bother to hunt for ones hidden around town (because I tend to snooze too long).

 

That how I feel about this type of geocache. I know where you are coming from since we both live in the same area.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If the item being hidden is halfway decent, I imagine the competition could be pretty stiff. It's pretty stiff right now just for FTF bragging rights.

 

I guess I really didn't consider the impact of the FTF crowd, perhaps because I live in an area where FTF is just not a very big deal. There are a few people that try to be FTF on a cache but can't really characterize anyone in my area as a FTF hound, nor is there any real competition to get FTF bragging rights. To address your points specifically:

 

 

Some potential problems:

 

1. GZ could get pretty trashed if the item being sought is small enough to hide well, especially if someone finds it and doesn't tell the rest of the world that it's been found (as some FTFers like to do).

 

Having the GZ area trashed due to a difficult find is something that a new cache type could mitigate. I'm not sure it would be possible to stop some people from being rude, selfish, and reckless. As far as the second sentence, I just don't understand why someone would neglect logging the find, purely because it might cause others to continue to search for something (a FTF or a hidden item). It seems to me that geocaching would not exist without the goodwill of geocachers hiding caches for others to find. Tricking other geocachers into thinking that the FTF is still available goes against the nature of a game which depends on the goodwill of others that play the game.

 

2. The same few people would find all the good booty. Yes, I know, you snooze, you lose. But jealousy already rears it's head in the forums occasionally over "hogging the FTFs." It could be even more so with something that actually has value. Could it take the "friendly competition" factor and intensify it into something not very friendly? Probably depends on just how valuable the booty is. $10 geocoins, maybe not so much. But a $100 camera? I don't know. A $10,000 car? Better bring your gun.

 

Again, I find the whole "you snooze, you lose" concept anti-geocaching. As I wrote earlier, when a listing is first published it would be essentially impossible to find as it would only generally reveal the location (i.e. the name of a city, state, etc). There wouldn't be a mad rush out the door when the listing is published because nobody would know where to go. Through a series of clues, those following the listing would be able to narrow down the location, eventually until someone had enough information to make a find. I would hope that the value of the hidden item would correlate with the difficulty of the clues. I'm sure there was some jealously involved in regard to those that one the Dodge Journey's but those that did find them worked hard to do so. If my idea comes to fruition I doubt that someone would hide a $10,000 car in an easily found location and give out the location in the first clue.

[+Sol seaker]

That's one of the biggest problems I see here (besides the permanence rule).

 

Around here there's already a big race to the FTF. There are certain people who get most of them.

I can see a lot of people building a lot of resentment right away against these types of caches because of that.

 

What might work better is a cache that periodically has pricey swag in it. You don't know when it's going to have great swag and when it's not. Anyone can add great swag to it at any time.

 

Of course the problem with that would be the same people continually going back to the same cache again and again, so you'd get the resentment and fighting once again.

 

Let's face it, people fight about plain ole regular caches that don't have any value whatsoever except a smiley.

Once you add value, it's going to get even more complicated.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

That's one of the biggest problems I see here (besides the permanence rule).

 

I am suggesting a new cache type. One, in which the permanence rule would not apply. I don't see that any different than the proximity guideline not applying to non-physical stages of a multi or mystery cache.

 

Around here there's already a big race to the FTF. There are certain people who get most of them.

I can see a lot of people building a lot of resentment right away against these types of caches because of that.

 

What might work better is a cache that periodically has pricey swag in it. You don't know when it's going to have great swag and when it's not. Anyone can add great swag to it at any time.

 

Of course the problem with that would be the same people continually going back to the same cache again and again, so you'd get the resentment and fighting once again.

 

Let's face it, people fight about plain ole regular caches that don't have any value whatsoever except a smiley.

Once you add value, it's going to get even more complicated.

 

Wow. If that's what geocaching is like in Seattle I'm glad I don't live there. I really don't expect my suggestion to solve problems that currently exist in some areas.

 

I just don't think that the problems you describe in regard to the FTF race impacting a cache type that is more like a mystery cache than a traditional cache that people can race out to get as soon as it's published. A difficult puzzle or something like I"m suggesting that might require multiple clues to figure out the location would mean that the FTF would not be someone that can drop whatever they're doing when they're smart phone notifies them a new cache has been published and then race out (of course, staying under the speed limit at all times) to find the cache. It would be someone that is good at puzzles, uses logic and mental skills to figure out where the item is hidden. For my suggestion, the owner of the listing controls when clues are revealed (because they're posted as log entries) and is not tied to when the reviewer publishes the cache.