Teen Geocacher shot in leg for tresspassing?

[Mr.Yuck]

Happened in July, just went to trial yesterday.

 

http://www.vvdailypress.com/articles/shot-30345-teen-geocaching.html

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

What a shame. A lack of adequate permission for the hide seems implicit.

 

The guy shooting trespassers without regard to who they are, especially a kid trying to run away, is beyond stupid. Lock him up. I'm a huge fan of gun ownership and self-protection but unfortunately you can't limit ownership to smart people, therefore lots of idiots have guns. Be careful out there.

 

The replies to that article are particularly disheartening. Folks, you don't own anything worth shooting somebody over except your life and that of your family. If you don't think that you are in immediate danger don't pull that trigger!

Edited September 29, 2011 by TheAlabamaRambler

[4wheelin_fool]

Well, it wasn't in the weekly email detailing "Geocaching in the News", plus you mispelled "trespassing".

But that's okay.

[Andronicus]

What a shame. A lack of adequate permission for the hide seems implicit.

Maybe, maybe not. The article does not say that they were on private property. They may have been near private property, on on public property that the defendant thought of as his (this happens quite often).

 

The article sais that drug adict often tresspassed on the defendant's property. Maybe these were actualy geocachers. Maybe we look like drug adicts when searching around GZ.

[+lamoracke]

the article does not say they were trespassing, that is an assumption here...nor does it say the cache was on private property. The property owner sounds like he was spooked by anything and could have shot them when they were just going by his property.

 

"The geocachers were hiking on the hill off National Trail Highway near Academy Avenue in Oro Grande looking for several containers hidden there"

 

I see no reason to cast partial blame to the CO until there is more information. Folks get shot at without trespassing sadly as well.

[+Mom-n-Andy]

There's a ton of geocaches in that area, including the 30 Years of Pacman series centered on http://coord.info/GC28XNV. Neat to look at on a zoomed out map. looks like a crazy guy with a gun situation rather than a private property issue.

[+bflentje]

the article does not say they were trespassing, that is an assumption here...nor does it say the cache was on private property. The property owner sounds like he was spooked by anything and could have shot them when they were just going by his property.

 

"The geocachers were hiking on the hill off National Trail Highway near Academy Avenue in Oro Grande looking for several containers hidden there"

 

I see no reason to cast partial blame to the CO until there is more information. Folks get shot at without trespassing sadly as well.

 

In MN, you cannot defend your property from trespass with deadly force unless you yourself are in true danger of being threatened with the same. Now, if the geocacher entered your abode (your home), that's completely different.

[Dinoprophet]

There's a ton of geocaches in that area, including the 30 Years of Pacman series centered on http://coord.info/GC28XNV. Neat to look at on a zoomed out map. looks like a crazy guy with a gun situation rather than a private property issue.

Link seems to be broken. Here's a map centered on a cache near the roads mentioned. Cute series just east of Pac Man as well.

 

Edit: And another northeast of that one.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Dinoprophet

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

There's a ton of geocaches in that area, including the 30 Years of Pacman series centered on http://coord.info/GC28XNV. Neat to look at on a zoomed out map. looks like a crazy guy with a gun situation rather than a private property issue.

 

But if you look at the zoomed in Google Geocaching map, you can see the property lines. I suspect many of the lines indicate private property boundaries.

 

(I amn ot condoning what the property owner did, just pointing out that there is a chance some of the caches are on private property)

[+bflentje]

There's a ton of geocaches in that area, including the 30 Years of Pacman series centered on http://coord.info/GC28XNV. Neat to look at on a zoomed out map. looks like a crazy guy with a gun situation rather than a private property issue.

 

But if you look at the zoomed in Google Geocaching map, you can see the property lines. I suspect many of the lines indicate private property boundaries.

 

(I amn ot condoning what the property owner did, just pointing out that there is a chance some of the caches are on private property)

 

Google Maps contains property lines?

[Dinoprophet]

John Wayne - Again

See the description and most recent logs.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Dinoprophet

[+SwineFlew]

I had run into home owner like that and I was on a public road the whole time. The cache was shut down after a number of geocacher complaining about the nearby home owner. This is why its important to report any of those behavior in the first place before anything bad happen.

[+Presence]

Regardless of where the cache was the man shoot an unarmed teen running AWAY from him. Theres no way that can be acceptable. The man is a coward and gives responsible gun owners a bad image.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

There's a ton of geocaches in that area, including the 30 Years of Pacman series centered on http://coord.info/GC28XNV. Neat to look at on a zoomed out map. looks like a crazy guy with a gun situation rather than a private property issue.

 

But if you look at the zoomed in Google Geocaching map, you can see the property lines. I suspect many of the lines indicate private property boundaries.

 

(I amn ot condoning what the property owner did, just pointing out that there is a chance some of the caches are on private property)

 

Google Maps contains property lines?

 

Yes, in areas where the property data is available in sort of GIS system, and Google has made use of it.

[+JeepFreak81]

I can't believe some of the comments on that story.....we don't even know if the people were on this guys property or not. Regardless of that, you can't go shooting people just for being on your property. Perhaps they got lost and wandered onto your property. If anything, fire a warning pop into the ground in front of you or in the air or something. Almost makes me scared to go out geocaching, but luckily I've never heard of anything like this happening in my neck of the woods.

[+A & J Tooling]

Just up the difficulty level. Adds to the challenge.

[+humboldt flier]

Just up the difficulty level. Adds to the challenge.

 

A & J ... you are soooooooo naughty. LOL

[+geodarts]

John Wayne - Again

See the description and most recent logs.

 

Or John Wayne.

 

The uncle who was with the boy states that he believes the cache was "a good 600 feet" from private property. "This has nothing to do with the Geocache, the cache owner or Groundspeak. It has to do with a person who is evil and decided that he wanted to teach someone a lesson."

 

Needless to say the police in Victorvile were alerted to the incident and a helicopter and 3 police cars went to the location. I used my iPhone and the Geocaching app to provide pin-point GPS coordinates as to where the incident took place.

 

They were able to apprehend the suspect, get the rifle he used and I was brought to the location to do a positive ID on him.

 

Also to note - as soon as he started telling us to get off his land, I yelled down to him that we are leaving and we did not know it was private property. Despite our turning around and walking in the opposite direction, up the little hill and rocks, he decided that was not good enough and opened fire. I am not sure what we could have done differently to convince the property owner that we were leaving, really confused about that part of it and I feel lucky for my part in not having been hit. I feel awful for my Nephew and my family for all the pain this has caused him and the stress of my brother and extended family.

 

My nephew was hit on the back of the leg and fortunately it didn't hit any major arteries or blood vessels so we were able to get him treatment quickly. He is being discharged from the hospital today and we hope will have a very speedy recovery.

 

This is one adventure that we will never ever forget. It makes you think about taking advantage of what life has to offer you and live life to the fullest.

 

Judging from the maps, the old cache appears to be on private property, with the replacement further away, outside the boundaries where the old cache was located, but still on private property. Regardless of where the boundaries might be, it would not offer Mr. Heim much of a defense under these circumstances. Most importantly, I am glad that Cameron has been recovering well. It could have been much worse for all concerned.

 

--------------

 

Just to add a note, another version of the news story threw in a gratuitous reference to a bomb scare at Disneyland and a line about how caches should not be placed on private property without permission. It also includes Heim's contention that he was not shooting at the people and that the bullet ricocheted from the rocks.

Edited September 29, 2011 by geodarts

[+GeoBain]

What a shame. A lack of adequate permission for the hide seems implicit.

 

The guy shooting trespassers without regard to who they are, especially a kid trying to run away, is beyond stupid. Lock him up. I'm a huge fan of gun ownership and self-protection but unfortunately you can't limit ownership to smart people, therefore lots of idiots have guns. Be careful out there.

 

The replies to that article are particularly disheartening. Folks, you don't own anything worth shooting somebody over except your life and that of your family. If you don't think that you are in immediate danger don't pull that trigger!

 

Don't be so sure.

 

The geocacher that was with the boy and his father (his nephew and brother) says that the cache was on public land. LINK

 

It seems like an unfortunate run in with a paranoid old man who had been attacked and robbed recently.

[+Gan Dalf]

Just to add a note, another version of the news story threw in a gratuitous reference to a bomb scare at Disneyland...

 

Sorry to stray off topic but I've gotta ask if their was a thread about this back in February. I have a hard time believing a geocache was approved in Disneyland unless it was ancient and grandfathered... If there was a thread and someone knows where it is I'd appriciate a link pointing to ti.

[+SwineFlew]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

[Mr.Yuck]

Just to add a note, another version of the news story threw in a gratuitous reference to a bomb scare at Disneyland...

 

Sorry to stray off topic but I've gotta ask if their was a thread about this back in February. I have a hard time believing a geocache was approved in Disneyland unless it was ancient and grandfathered... If there was a thread and someone knows where it is I'd appriciate a link pointing to ti.

 

Don't have it, just because I don't have a lot of time. It was definitely discussed, and it was a "find 50 states and go to Disneyland" challenge cache. Seeing as it had bogus coordinates, they "got away" with dropping it on Disney property. I can only speak for the Florida Disney World property, but a bomb scare incident forced all physical caches to be removed from Disney property in late winter/early spring of 2005. I know this because I found several physical caches there in August 2004.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Mr.Yuck

[+geodarts]

 

The geocacher that was with the boy and his father (his nephew and brother) says that the cache was on public land.

 

It seems like an unfortunate run in with a paranoid old man who had been attacked and robbed recently.

 

The county zoning map indicates that the John Wayne cache was on private property, as well as the current location of the replacement cache (John Wayne - Again), with BLM land beginning a bit further down the way. The property does not appear to have been posted, but in any event it would not change Mr. Heim's legal situation, nor the fact that you are very correct -- an unfortunate run in with an old man who had been attacked and robbed recently. It will be up to the jury to determine what they make of it.

 

For now I am glad that the teen appears to have recovered and no one else was shot, but I would be careful when caching on private property in that area in case there are any more people with guns out there who are inclined to shoot first. Given what I know about the general area through my work, I would hazard to guess that there probably are some others . . . .

Edited September 29, 2011 by geodarts

[+GeoBain]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

I would think the geocachers running AWAY from the shooter would be clear communication that it's time to stop shooting.

[GOF and Bacall]

Doesn't matter if they were trespassing or not. This idiot shot a kid who was leaving the area. They should lock him up for a while.

[+geodarts]

Doesn't matter if they were trespassing or not. This idiot shot a kid who was leaving the area. They should lock him up for a while.

 

His attorney gave a different account of the situation, which is why there is a jury. But based on the cache logs, I am inclined to agree -- although a lengthy sentence will amount to a life term that those of us who are state taxpayers will pay for as his medical care costs come into play. In the end, it is an unfortunate incident that need not have occurred no matter which way you look at it.

 

I have been approached by an angry property owner when a cache was placed on private property near public land, a simple mistake by the cache owner and the owner was not armed. I know others have had the same experience. It happens. Boundaries can be confusing when taking back roads or hiking off trail and not all property is posted at every location. Double check zoning maps, parcel maps, gis data, or other information before placing caches if you are not absolutely sure -- if this map had been checked, it might have avoided the incident entirely.

Edited September 29, 2011 by geodarts

[+humboldt flier]

What a shame. A lack of adequate permission for the hide seems implicit.

 

The guy shooting trespassers without regard to who they are, especially a kid trying to run away, is beyond stupid. Lock him up. I'm a huge fan of gun ownership and self-protection but unfortunately you can't limit ownership to smart people, therefore lots of idiots have guns. Be careful out there.

 

The replies to that article are particularly disheartening. Folks, you don't own anything worth shooting somebody over except your life and that of your family. If you don't think that you are in immediate danger don't pull that trigger!

 

I get the feeling that there were "Proximity / Paranoia Issues" as opposed to permission issues.

 

71 yr old with a rifle / carbine hmmmmmmm. ( hitting the accelerator instead of the brake seems possible )

 

But hey ... I am 700 miles away from that action with other proximity issues.

 

( It is approaching harvest season here in the Emerald Triangle and the Mary Jane growers are rather twitchy, not wise to go caching in the boonies in these parts )

[knowschad]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

Given his age, the judge may well commute his sentence.

[+Lil Devil]

Meh. Just shoot the landowner in the back of the leg and send him on his way.

[+GeoGeeBee]

I can't believe some of the comments on that story.....we don't even know if the people were on this guys property or not. Regardless of that, you can't go shooting people just for being on your property. Perhaps they got lost and wandered onto your property. If anything, fire a warning pop into the ground in front of you or in the air or something. Almost makes me scared to go out geocaching, but luckily I've never heard of anything like this happening in my neck of the woods.

Bad advice.

 

You either need to fire a weapon, or you don't.

 

You need to fire a weapon if your life, or the life of someone else, is in immediate jeopardy. In that case, you fire to neutralize the threat. Don't waste time with a warning shot, aim for the center of mass.

 

If no one's life is in immediate danger, don't shoot. Period.

[+baloo&bd]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

Given his age, the judge may well commute his sentence.

 

With luck, not. He needs a good, long stint. Hopefully, never to see freedom again. He is lucky he is not facing murder charges.

[+GeoBain]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

Given his age, the judge may well commute his sentence.

 

With luck, not. He needs a good, long stint. Hopefully, never to see freedom again. He is lucky he is not facing murder charges.

That's a bit harsh.

[+Redfist]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

Given his age, the judge may well commute his sentence.

 

With luck, not. He needs a good, long stint. Hopefully, never to see freedom again. He is lucky he is not facing murder charges.

That's a bit harsh.

 

He shot a teenager who was running away and wasn't on his property. He wasn't in immediate danger and in fact, he even admitted his reaction was due to prior theft - not due to personal harm.

 

Anyone willing to shoot a running kid in the back... deserves a long "time out".

[+sshipway]

This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession. The USA seems to believe that incidents like this are a fair price to pay for the right to have a people-killing device of your own...

 

You let everyone carry lethal weapons, and idiots like this will get hold of one and take a shot at anyone they like. How he can defend shooting at a child, who is running away from him, without being in any danger himself, I'll never know. It could so easily have been fatal for the child (and if the father had a gun in HIS car, he'd likely have come back and killed the old fool then...)

[+dfx]

This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession. The USA seems to believe that incidents like this are a fair price to pay for the right to have a people-killing device of your own...

 

You let everyone carry lethal weapons, and idiots like this will get hold of one and take a shot at anyone they like. How he can defend shooting at a child, who is running away from him, without being in any danger himself, I'll never know. It could so easily have been fatal for the child (and if the father had a gun in HIS car, he'd likely have come back and killed the old fool then...)

 

Exactly my thoughts, but I didn't wanna go there myself.

[+Manville Possum]

( It is approaching harvest season here in the Emerald Triangle and the Mary Jane growers are rather twitchy, not wise to go caching in the boonies in these parts )

 

That is true in many areas, and cachers and hikers should be aware of it. Even as a Archery hunter myself I don't venture into some areas when our early deer season comes in. I wait until the growers have harvested their crops. I don't want mistaken for a "Pot Pirate" and shot by some doped up person.

[GOF and Bacall]

This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession. The USA seems to believe that incidents like this are a fair price to pay for the right to have a people-killing device of your own...

 

You let everyone carry lethal weapons, and idiots like this will get hold of one and take a shot at anyone they like. How he can defend shooting at a child, who is running away from him, without being in any danger himself, I'll never know. It could so easily have been fatal for the child (and if the father had a gun in HIS car, he'd likely have come back and killed the old fool then...)

 

Exactly my thoughts, but I didn't wanna go there myself.

 

I don't know about New Zealand but there are a hell of a lot of hunters running around the Canadian woods with guns.

[+dfx]

I don't know about New Zealand but there are a hell of a lot of hunters running around the Canadian woods with guns.

 

Right. So?

 

First of all, I'm not Canadian.

Second of all, I can have an opinion on the matter independent of the firearms politics of the country I live in or originate from.

Third of all, nobody said that firearms should be prohibited altogether.

 

Anything else?

[+luvvinbird]

Just up the difficulty level. Adds to the challenge.

Now there's a true geocacher! Seriously though, after reading the story the property owner was clearly paranoid of being robbed again. A gut reaction but, unfortunately, a poor decision.

[+Manville Possum]

This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession. The USA seems to believe that incidents like this are a fair price to pay for the right to have a people-killing device of your own...

 

You let everyone carry lethal weapons, and idiots like this will get hold of one and take a shot at anyone they like. How he can defend shooting at a child, who is running away from him, without being in any danger himself, I'll never know. It could so easily have been fatal for the child (and if the father had a gun in HIS car, he'd likely have come back and killed the old fool then...)

I have a hunter friend that is a Kiwi. He tells me stories about hunting for the government because there are not many hunters in New Zealand and they use a poison called 1080 to keep animal population under control, that is something that would not go over well in the USA. You have a very beautiful Country from the photo that I see, but make it sound very anti gun. But there are some nice gun stores there too and many gun owners that I communicate with in gun forums.

I'm sure that the court will find this man guilty and he will be convicted.

[GOF and Bacall]

I don't know about New Zealand but there are a hell of a lot of hunters running around the Canadian woods with guns.

 

Right. So?

 

First of all, I'm not Canadian.

Second of all, I can have an opinion on the matter independent of the firearms politics of the country I live in or originate from.

Third of all, nobody said that firearms should be prohibited altogether.

 

Anything else?

 

I guess I misunderstood "My thoughts exactly" to include "This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession."

[+B+L]

I guess the guy that tossed a cache on someone else's land couldn't bother to make sure he corrected that problem when he was hiding the replacement cache. I know Groundspeak likes to err on the side of publishing new caches, but it seems like maybe this was a good time for a little extra scrutiny, especially since those people "up there" seem a little touchy about strangers even when they aren't shooting at them.

[+dfx]

I don't know about New Zealand but there are a hell of a lot of hunters running around the Canadian woods with guns.

 

Right. So?

 

First of all, I'm not Canadian.

Second of all, I can have an opinion on the matter independent of the firearms politics of the country I live in or originate from.

Third of all, nobody said that firearms should be prohibited altogether.

 

Anything else?

 

I guess I misunderstood "My thoughts exactly" to include "This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession."

Well, that depends on how you understand that part. Since I also don't know about NZ, I assumed that it's not impossible to get a gun for certain purposes or under certain circumstances, as is the case with most western countries. The "not normally allowed" means "not allowed unless you're licensed" (with having a license being the "not normal" case).

[+the4dirtydogs]

I've cached in this area in question good thing we didn't get shot at. Must have been a scary feeling to know somebody was shooting at you for NO reason. Good thing the teen is ok. I think the shooter should do some time and not be allowed to own anymore guns.

 

I kinda know the feeling of being shot at(by mistake). I guess we were caching North of an illegal shooting range. Took a minute to figure out what the whizzing sounds were. I relized real quick when I saw the dirt fly by my foot. We really didn't know which way to run because we were all out in the open. It sure got our blood pumping. We DNFd the cache. http://coord.info/GC176NP What a bunch of chickens we are.

[+luvvinbird]

I don't know about New Zealand but there are a hell of a lot of hunters running around the Canadian woods with guns.

 

Right. So?

 

First of all, I'm not Canadian.

Second of all, I can have an opinion on the matter independent of the firearms politics of the country I live in or originate from.

Third of all, nobody said that firearms should be prohibited altogether.

 

Anything else?

 

I guess I misunderstood "My thoughts exactly" to include "This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession."

Okay girls, let's try to get along. If someone wants to get a gun, they'll get it regardless of the country they live in or where they're from. I live in Canada too, but the shootings that happen daily in any of our larger cities are testament to the fact that illegal firearms, somehow, are available to those that want them. Any city, anyplace in the world. Very sad.

[+Redfist]

I've cached in this area in question good thing we didn't get shot at. Must have been a scary feeling to know somebody was shooting at you for NO reason. Good thing the teen is ok. I think the shooter should do some time and not be allowed to own anymore guns.

 

I kinda know the feeling of being shot at(by mistake). I guess we were caching North of an illegal shooting range. Took a minute to figure out what the whizzing sounds were. I relized real quick when I saw the dirt fly by my foot. We really didn't know which way to run because we were all out in the open. It sure got our blood pumping. We DNFd the cache. http://coord.info/GC176NP What a bunch of chickens we are.

 

I was out caching early in the morning north of Carefree Highway (north of Phoenix). I got the puzzle cache I cared about and was just picking up some trail caches on the way back to the car. All of a sudden, I heard some whizzing sounds and branches/leaves being russled. I didn't know what it was. I heard more whizzing sounds followed by plops on the ground behind me and I figured out it was gun fire.

 

My reaction? CRAP! Am I going to get shot while caching???

 

I carefully moved out from behind trees to get a better view of what was happening (I didn't know where the shots were coming from). Eventually I found the hunters - they were bird hunting. I got their attention so they would know to NOT SHOOT ME.

 

BTW - I did finish the caches in the area.

[+GeoBain]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

Given his age, the judge may well commute his sentence.

 

With luck, not. He needs a good, long stint. Hopefully, never to see freedom again. He is lucky he is not facing murder charges.

That's a bit harsh.

 

He shot a teenager who was running away and wasn't on his property. He wasn't in immediate danger and in fact, he even admitted his reaction was due to prior theft - not due to personal harm.

 

Anyone willing to shoot a running kid in the back... deserves a long "time out".

 

Oh he was VERY VERY VERY WRONG, but never see freedom again? A bit harsh, IMNSHO.

[+Redfist]

"Heim, who doesn't speak English well, has Spanish-English interpreters to assist him during the trial, which is scheduled to continue today."

 

I see where there can be a commutation issue here.

 

Given his age, the judge may well commute his sentence.

 

With luck, not. He needs a good, long stint. Hopefully, never to see freedom again. He is lucky he is not facing murder charges.

That's a bit harsh.

 

He shot a teenager who was running away and wasn't on his property. He wasn't in immediate danger and in fact, he even admitted his reaction was due to prior theft - not due to personal harm.

 

Anyone willing to shoot a running kid in the back... deserves a long "time out".

 

Oh he was VERY VERY VERY WRONG, but never see freedom again? A bit harsh, IMNSHO.

 

I agree with you on that. "NEVER" is a long time. It should be much more than a slap on the wrist but less than the rest of his lifespan. Ultimately, the goal of a judicial system should be to prevent bad behavior in the future. If he can truely be reformed in X years, then X should be the target. It should be more about reform than it should be about punishment.

 

my 2 cents...

[+t4e]

This is why I'm glad I live in a country where you're not normally allowed to have lethal firearms in your posession. The USA seems to believe that incidents like this are a fair price to pay for the right to have a people-killing device of your own...

 

You let everyone carry lethal weapons, and idiots like this will get hold of one and take a shot at anyone they like. How he can defend shooting at a child, who is running away from him, without being in any danger himself, I'll never know. It could so easily have been fatal for the child (and if the father had a gun in HIS car, he'd likely have come back and killed the old fool then...)

 

Exactly my thoughts, but I didn't wanna go there myself.

 

I don't know about New Zealand but there are a hell of a lot of hunters running around the Canadian woods with guns.

 

big difference between being allowed to have a gun to hunt in the woods and being allowed to carry a gun 24/7

[+dfx]

Okay girls, let's try to get along. If someone wants to get a gun, they'll get it regardless of the country they live in or where they're from. I live in Canada too, but the shootings that happen daily in any of our larger cities are testament to the fact that illegal firearms, somehow, are available to those that want them. Any city, anyplace in the world. Very sad.

The difference is how easy you make it for people to get a gun. Make it harder, and fewer people will have guns. Fewer people with guns means a lower chance to get shot at while geocaching (or whatever other activity). It's a simple equation really.