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Etrex 10/20/30 -help garmin with this "sticky" issue!

ChefRd2000

By ChefRd2000
in GPS technology and devices

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

Posted
Posted

If we can find a way to duplicate this sticky issue, I bet garmin can fix it. I worked on this today... Please try it: (gps,glonass,waas all on)

 

1. Set a waypoint and walk at least 200 ft from it

2. Set device to goto that waypoint. (off road... Not a route)

3. go to map view and zoom to 50ft. (I have north up, and 2 data fields (speed, dist to dest)

4. Walk straight at waypoint at 3mph

5. When 75 ft from waypoint, stop abruptly for 1 second.

6. Begin moving again toward the waypoint but much slower (1mph or less)

 

Does it lock up? If not, stop abruptly again and start slowly toward the waypoint.

 

My 20 today under overcast skies would freeze up half the time doing this.... And I can walk 100 ft past the waypoint (at 1mph) before it will start to recover.

Can anyone recreate this? Thanks

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zzavadil

zzavadil

Posted
Posted

Can anyone recreate this? Thanks

 

Perfect instructions, I bet applying these steps will expose the stickiness in its ugliness to anyone. ;-)

I've met some sceptics on a local GC forum who are strictly dismissing sticky issue as nonsense, telling me they have never met something like this etc. I'll translate this for them. :)

 

Thanks, Zdenek

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zzavadil

zzavadil

Posted
Posted

Nice video. Thanks for posting it!

 

Thanks.

 

I wouldn't dismiss it as nonsense, but I haven't experienced it either.

 

Lucky you. :)

 

Does it really depend on "moving at a walking pace, stopping abruptly, and then moving much more slowly?"

 

I think no, but this is exactly the procedure for demonstrating the sticky problem in any conditions.

Otherwise I've observed the problem in almost normal walking speeds, but only once or twice. I guess it might depend on other factors like satellite constellation, surrounding terrain, handling of the GPSr (especially orientation of the antenna) etc.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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I wouldn't dismiss it as nonsense, but I haven't experienced it either. Does it really depend on "moving at a walking pace, stopping abruptly, and then moving much more slowly?" Or is that just the most obvious way to SEE that the GPS isn't updating smoothly?

 

I have the sticky under many different conditions... But companies want solid, repeatable procedures so they can duplicate and "fix" the problem. I decided to spend a day and see if I could get a procedure that might work on devices other than mine.

 

Please give it or try, or even better... Improve on what I started. I REALLY want this fixed.

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ras_oscar

+ras_oscar

Posted
Posted

Sounds like what my old Mio used to do when I had static navigation turned on. It was a car GPS and there was a software feature that prevented the location on the map from wandering at less than 3 mph. It would suddenly jump about 30 feet, kind of like the GPS was tracking to an invisible grid of snap points. I solved the problem by getting a Etrex Vista HCX.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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Sounds like what my old Mio used to do when I had static navigation turned on. It was a car GPS and there was a software feature that prevented the location on the map from wandering at less than 3 mph.

 

I can see how that would be good for car navigation. Horrible for geocaching! It does almost appear to be (really bad) software to stop gps "drift". Give us an option... Or only correct drift in the automotive profile.

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The Frosties!

+The Frosties!

Posted
Posted
I can see how that would be good for car navigation. Horrible for geocaching! It does almost appear to be (really bad) software to stop gps "drift". Give us an option... Or only correct drift in the automotive profile.

That's pretty much the simple, neat, solution, as a cacher I really don't care if the GPS shows me spending 30 minutes not going very far, it's what I'm doing. I suspect it's the only profile that would benefit from removal of drift sensing, and I can't imagine anyone complaining (but I bet I'm gonna be proved wrong, and learn something new in the process)

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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I can see how that would be good for car navigation. Horrible for geocaching! It does almost appear to be (really bad) software to stop gps "drift". Give us an option... Or only correct drift in the automotive profile.

That's pretty much the simple, neat, solution, as a cacher I really don't care if the GPS shows me spending 30 minutes not going very far, it's what I'm doing. I suspect it's the only profile that would benefit from removal of drift sensing, and I can't imagine anyone complaining (but I bet I'm gonna be proved wrong, and learn something new in the process)

 

My instructions above we're done in the recreational profile. I really need to test now if it's the same across different profiles... And if glonass or waas has anything to do with it or not.

 

Hearing that older devices have this issue also... I would guess its not a glonass issue (even though I felt it helped to shut off glonass), just an OS bug. Drift control software not resetting location after you have moved more than 3ft at less than 2mph.

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BAMBOOZLE

+BAMBOOZLE

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Posted

As I've said in other posts I've experienced the " sticky " on many occasions with both my Oregon 450 and 62S. Its well documented both here and on WIKI.

Its a shame because otherwise these would be great units. It's strange.....it can happen at the seashore with perfect overhead and no nearby objects or you may make a dozen trips in to the woods, some thick, and have no problem.

 

Has Garmin ever commented re. this issue??

 

I'm going to keep responding to one or both of these latest " sticky " threads so that they stay on top the list.....hopefully Garmin will notice.

 

I have a gut feeling this is an issue that cannot be addressed with a firmware update....hope I'm wrong.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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As I've said in other posts I've experienced the " sticky " on many occasions with both my Oregon 450 and 62S. Its well documented both here and on WIKI.

Its a shame because otherwise these would be great units. It's strange.....it can happen at the seashore with perfect overhead and no nearby objects or you may make a dozen trips in to the woods, some thick, and have no problem.

 

Has Garmin ever commented re. this issue??

 

I'm going to keep responding to one or both of these latest " sticky " threads so that they stay on top the list.....hopefully Garmin will notice.

 

I have a gut feeling this is an issue that cannot be addressed with a firmware update....hope I'm wrong.

 

I have worked for many big software companies... And they all live by the same bill gates motto "“There are no significant bugs in our released software that any significant number of users want fixed”"

 

Start waving the flag ( like that that great video on YouTube above ). And like MAGIC... It's fixed. ( I'm working on a sales crushing video of my own if this doesn't get resolved soon) But , I want to help them as much as we can first... And trust me when I say that nobody at garmin cares, or knows the products better than we do.

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dfx

+dfx

Posted
Posted
I have a gut feeling this is an issue that cannot be addressed with a firmware update....hope I'm wrong.

 

I'm willing to bet the opposite. One of the recent updates (I think it was when the GPS firmware moved to 5.0) already made the issue much better, but it's still popping up occasionally. It's probably their attempt of smoothing out small coordinate fluctuations to give better, more consistent readings. Which works quite well most of the time, but is overdoing it from time to time.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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I can see how that would be good for car navigation. Horrible for geocaching! It does almost appear to be (really bad) software to stop gps "drift". Give us an option... Or only correct drift in the automotive profile.

That's pretty much the simple, neat, solution, as a cacher I really don't care if the GPS shows me spending 30 minutes not going very far, it's what I'm doing. I suspect it's the only profile that would benefit from removal of drift sensing, and I can't imagine anyone complaining (but I bet I'm gonna be proved wrong, and learn something new in the process)

 

My instructions above we're done in the recreational profile. I really need to test now if it's the same across different profiles... And if glonass or waas has anything to do with it or not.

 

Hearing that older devices have this issue also... I would guess its not a glonass issue (even though I felt it helped to shut off glonass), just an OS bug. Drift control software not resetting location after you have moved more than 3ft at less than 2mph.

 

::: out testing now- same results on all profiles - same results with all GPS/glonass/waas combinations. Ugh!

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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As I've said in other posts I've experienced the " sticky " on many occasions with both my Oregon 450 and 62S. Its well documented both here and on WIKI.

Its a shame because otherwise these would be great units. It's strange.....it can happen at the seashore with perfect overhead and no nearby objects or you may make a dozen trips in to the woods, some thick, and have no problem.

 

Has Garmin ever commented re. this issue??

 

I'm going to keep responding to one or both of these latest " sticky " threads so that they stay on top the list.....hopefully Garmin will notice.

 

I have a gut feeling this is an issue that cannot be addressed with a firmware update....hope I'm wrong.

 

Even when sticky ... my 20 knows my speed very accurately. If it knows my speed... its only "sticky" due to a software issue.

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xyzee

xyzee

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ChefRd2000, You have described what I was complaining about with the 62s, that I had for a short time, in the summer of 2010.

When I walked at a slow pace, of about 1 foot per second, it would stay locked up, frozen, in a suspend mode, or "stuck" in static navigation lockdown. No once per second updates, to the changing Lat/Lon, like in a GPS 60 or 60CSx.

When making a "go to" to one of my backyard waypoints, the distance would not count down as I crept toward it.

 

Now i wonder about my averaging problems. How can a unit average different L/L's if it isn't receiving anything?

 

If somebody could just go deep into the units file system, and find a st nav file, and see if it can be turned on/off....

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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Now i wonder about my averaging problems. How can a unit average different L/L's if it isn't receiving anything?

 

 

The gps knows exactly where it is, or it wouldn't know my speed when it's locked up. The Upper level software is trying to smooth out everything and give the user a stable user experience. It's just OVER doing it. It's really becoming clear that the "gate" is 2mph and the second you go above that it leaps forward to catch up with the actual location. It's also not taking distance moved into that calculation. Today I walked 200 ft PAST my waypoint and it stayed locked on the spot I abruptly stopped 75ft BEFORE the waypoint. If I go over 1mph, it starts to creap, when I hit 2 mph... It leaps to my actual location.

 

My experience with the waypoint averaging is also bad... I would guess its all tied together. I would love user control over that "smoothing" software... Almost off for geocaching.... Just as it is now for automotive use.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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Unsure why some are having this so called sticky issue. Had never seen it on mine and tried today to make it stick by walking VERY slowly but my 20 performed flawlessly. Maybe it's not a software issue but some other problem?

 

Try increasing the amount of time you "stop" before moving forward. Also those first steps after you stop are the crucial ones. Start slow and stay below 1mph. I'm getting really good at it now that I can see what's going on. I also now see why I was having so many problems caching in the rough. Also, the more overhead tree cover you have... The easier it is. ( and the faster you can go and still have it stay locked)

 

Keep trying! If you can't recreate this issue... It could be something more! (settings, installed maps, updated software, geocaches???)

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BAMBOOZLE

+BAMBOOZLE

Posted
Posted

As I've said in other posts I've experienced the " sticky " on many occasions with both my Oregon 450 and 62S. Its well documented both here and on WIKI.

Its a shame because otherwise these would be great units. It's strange.....it can happen at the seashore with perfect overhead and no nearby objects or you may make a dozen trips in to the woods, some thick, and have no problem.

 

Has Garmin ever commented re. this issue??

 

I'm going to keep responding to one or both of these latest " sticky " threads so that they stay on top the list.....hopefully Garmin will notice.

 

I have a gut feeling this is an issue that cannot be addressed with a firmware update....hope I'm wrong.

 

Even when sticky ... my 20 knows my speed very accurately. If it knows my speed... its only "sticky" due to a software issue.

 

This is the first I've heard of a NON 3-axial compass unit with the " sticky "......the ones I've read a lot about are the Oregon x50's, the 62S, and the Etrex 30.

The fact that a friend said his Delorme PN60 did it made me think it might not be a firmware problem....I might post a question to PN60 users, they might not read this thread.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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This is the first I've heard of a NON 3-axial compass unit with the " sticky "......the ones I've read a lot about are the Oregon x50's, the 62S, and the Etrex 30.

The fact that a friend said his Delorme PN60 did it made me think it might not be a firmware problem....I might post a question to PN60 users, they might not read this thread.

 

Not familiar with the delorme brand. Is it related to garmin somehow?

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taeke

+taeke

Posted
Posted

The Upper level software is trying to smooth out everything and give the user a stable user experience. It's just OVER doing it.

 

I wonder if this amount of "smoothing" is dependent on which profile you use. Maybe copying the "auto" profile and changing it to geocache settings, fools the device in updating maps and everything faster, despite moving at a very low speed.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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Try increasing the amount of time you "stop" before moving forward. Also those first steps after you stop are the crucial ones. Start slow and stay below 1mph. I'm getting really good at it now that I can see what's going on. I also now see why I was having so many problems caching in the rough. Also, the more overhead tree cover you have... The easier it is. ( and the faster you can go and still have it stay locked)

 

Keep trying! If you can't recreate this issue... It could be something more! (settings, installed maps, updated software, geocaches???)

 

TBH if it's THAT difficult to make it stick it's really not an issue, is it?

 

If your geocaching... it happens without trying. And is NOT OK.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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The Upper level software is trying to smooth out everything and give the user a stable user experience. It's just OVER doing it.

 

I wonder if this amount of "smoothing" is dependent on which profile you use. Maybe copying the "auto" profile and changing it to geocache settings, fools the device in updating maps and everything faster, despite moving at a very low speed.

Happens on all profiles. :(

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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TBH if it's THAT difficult to make it stick it's really not an issue, is it?

 

If your geocaching... it happens without trying. And is NOT OK.

 

It's never happened while I've been geocaching, which is why I tried, and failed, to duplicate it, wanted to try to see what all the fuss was about :)

 

That's interesting ... if you really can't duplicate it... might be something else. Would you be willing to chat with me off forum?

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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Happy to ... but I'm in the UK ... although I did live in Washington for a couple of years ... DC that is :)

 

Interesting watching the video ... mine isn't set to show lat/long and is set for British National Grid ... can't see why that might make a difference though :unsure:

Great .... would like to know how are devices differ. Email me at

ChefRd2000@live.com

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pepikokojo

pepikokojo

Posted
Posted

...

Has Garmin ever commented re. this issue??

...

 

I have a 62s. I raised the sticky issue with Garmin last year. Apparently they reproduced it and later firmware has improved it for me at least. From their email:

 

We have reproduced this issue. It gave us an excuse to go outside! We noticed that the distance field is not being updated when we were moving at 0.5 mph or less. When we quickly took one big step, it updated everything. You are correct in inferring that the issue is related to moving slowly. We are investigating solutions for this.

 

62/78 Software Team

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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...

Has Garmin ever commented re. this issue??

...

 

I have a 62s. I raised the sticky issue with Garmin last year. Apparently they reproduced it and later firmware has improved it for me at least. From their email:

 

We have reproduced this issue. It gave us an excuse to go outside! We noticed that the distance field is not being updated when we were moving at 0.5 mph or less. When we quickly took one big step, it updated everything. You are correct in inferring that the issue is related to moving slowly. We are investigating solutions for this.

 

62/78 Software Team

 

You got a "real" , honest response from garmin? Wow!

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JBnW

+JBnW

Posted
Posted

Well, umm, wow! That was very easy to replicate in very favorable conditions! I let our 62s warm up for about 10 minutes under a clear sky with little obstructions and a screen full of satellites. Marked a waypoint, then walked about 100 feet away, did Find>Waypoint>Go, and walked very slowly with no stop...and no distance countdown or LatLong change. Tried several times with stopping or not stopping my movement, stopping then resuming the navigation, or just leaving it alone as I walked back and forth; and also looking at LatLongs or the compass. Seems movement below about 1.3-1.5 MPH is about the rate that this starts; and again I could induce this without stopping. No trees, blue skies, 12 sats showing with a reported EPE of 7-8 ft. And I would think this would be a very realistic caching condition!

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BAMBOOZLE

+BAMBOOZLE

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Posted

Well, umm, wow! That was very easy to replicate in very favorable conditions! I let our 62s warm up for about 10 minutes under a clear sky with little obstructions and a screen full of satellites. Marked a waypoint, then walked about 100 feet away, did Find>Waypoint>Go, and walked very slowly with no stop...and no distance countdown or LatLong change. Tried several times with stopping or not stopping my movement, stopping then resuming the navigation, or just leaving it alone as I walked back and forth; and also looking at LatLongs or the compass. Seems movement below about 1.3-1.5 MPH is about the rate that this starts; and again I could induce this without stopping. No trees, blue skies, 12 sats showing with a reported EPE of 7-8 ft. And I would think this would be a very realistic caching condition!

 

You got that right !

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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Well, umm, wow! That was very easy to replicate in very favorable conditions! I let our 62s warm up for about 10 minutes under a clear sky with little obstructions and a screen full of satellites. Marked a waypoint, then walked about 100 feet away, did Find>Waypoint>Go, and walked very slowly with no stop...and no distance countdown or LatLong change. Tried several times with stopping or not stopping my movement, stopping then resuming the navigation, or just leaving it alone as I walked back and forth; and also looking at LatLongs or the compass. Seems movement below about 1.3-1.5 MPH is about the rate that this starts; and again I could induce this without stopping. No trees, blue skies, 12 sats showing with a reported EPE of 7-8 ft. And I would think this would be a very realistic caching condition!

 

So... My procedure works with:

 

Etrex 10

Etrex 20

Etrex 30

GPSmap 62s

Oregon 450

 

Anyone else?

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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...Seems movement below about 1.3-1.5 MPH is about the rate that this starts; and again I could induce this without stopping...
If you start moving more quickly than that, does it notice and start tracking again? If not, what (else) do you need to do to nu-stick it?

 

On the 20 (with little cover) 1mph sticks completely .... Speed up to 2mph and it will start to creep forward (but still way behind you) .... Speed to 3 mph and it will leap forward to your actual location. In the woods where the gps is struggling a bit, all bets are off on speed.

 

Yesterday went cachin and could not get it to UN-stick even at a full walk one time. So I used my slowly dying geomate jr the rest of the day.... And it worked perfectly. Sad when a stupid $50 kids gps works better than a state of the art device from the top gps maker. :(

 

I am starting a YouTube video to demonstrate just how bad this sticky issue is. And once it's completed for the 20, I will hunt down those other devices affected by this and make a video of those also. People buying these devices for geocaching deserve to know. (it works just fine for everything else)

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dfx

+dfx

Posted
Posted

Well, umm, wow! That was very easy to replicate in very favorable conditions! I let our 62s warm up for about 10 minutes under a clear sky with little obstructions and a screen full of satellites. Marked a waypoint, then walked about 100 feet away, did Find>Waypoint>Go, and walked very slowly with no stop...and no distance countdown or LatLong change. Tried several times with stopping or not stopping my movement, stopping then resuming the navigation, or just leaving it alone as I walked back and forth; and also looking at LatLongs or the compass. Seems movement below about 1.3-1.5 MPH is about the rate that this starts; and again I could induce this without stopping. No trees, blue skies, 12 sats showing with a reported EPE of 7-8 ft. And I would think this would be a very realistic caching condition!

 

So... My procedure works with:

 

Etrex 10

Etrex 20

Etrex 30

GPSmap 62s

Oregon 450

 

Anyone else?

 

Just posting to add that my 450 doesn't always do this. Most of the time, it's perfectly possible to walk really slowly and still have it update its location properly and reliably, without any sticking at all. It's those few cases where it does stick that it gets annoying - it's really hard to make it unstick, even though over time (several minutes at least) it fixes itself.

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JBnW

+JBnW

Posted
Posted
...Seems movement below about 1.3-1.5 MPH is about the rate that this starts; and again I could induce this without stopping...
If you start moving more quickly than that, does it notice and start tracking again? If not, what (else) do you need to do to nu-stick it?

Yep, the GPS un-stuck when walking at a quicker pace. I can usually walk about 3 mph or so on level ground, and never really noticed this until I tried it. But I can see situations where I would slow down (looking for GZ) where it would start to stick.

 

Also, easily replicated with a GPSMap 78 under very good satellite conditions. Started sticking at about 0.7 mph (how's that for implied accuracy??). Actually could get it to stick without actually stopping, but by just slowing my pace. The 78 isn't used much, so that may be from lack of almanac, ephemeris, whatever.

 

There might be a question if this is important for caching, but as mentioned before, this would make a big problem with something like anchor drift.

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JJnTJ

+JJnTJ

Posted
Posted

Do these new units have the ability to "use with GPS off"? I'm only familiar with the 60CSx, and I've used this feature once in a great while when it acts up.

 

I wonder if briefly turning off the GPS system (not the whole unit!) might cause it to unstick.

 

If it works or not, it's obviously not a long-term solution. Maybe it will help the Garmin engineers.

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EScout

+EScout

Posted
Posted

I tried to re-create the issue with my 20 last weekend, but did not do the low speed. I was going 2.5 to 3 MPH walking. I was going to a saved waypoint that I set proximity alarm to. I will have to see if the proximity alarm affects the stickiness at the lower speed......

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PatnRusty

+PatnRusty

Posted
Posted

My new eTrex 30 with brand new lithium batteries will often just freeze ( stick) regularly. It will usually do it about 40 feet from GZ and then as you continue right on past the GZ it will continue to indicate the same until tou may be 100 to 140 feet past it and then it will immediately indicate the opposite direction and 100 or more feet distance. It doesn't seem to matter how fast you walk while this occurs. If anyone has a solution I'd sure like to hear it. My Venture HCx never did that.

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ChefRd2000

ChefRd2000

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My new eTrex 30 with brand new lithium batteries will often just freeze ( stick) regularly. It will usually do it about 40 feet from GZ and then as you continue right on past the GZ it will continue to indicate the same until tou may be 100 to 140 feet past it and then it will immediately indicate the opposite direction and 100 or more feet distance. It doesn't seem to matter how fast you walk while this occurs. If anyone has a solution I'd sure like to hear it. My Venture HCx never did that.

 

The solution is to get garmin to care. Not sure the best way to do that. I am working on a YouTube video right now to help bring this to their attention. Hope others will do something also ( email, call, return it ...? )

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RamblinBear

RamblinBear

Posted
Posted

The solution is to get garmin to care. Not sure the best way to do that. I am working on a YouTube video right now to help bring this to their attention. Hope others will do something also ( email, call, return it ...? )

 

Have any members emailed Garmin a link to this thread? There seems to be a body of evidence building up here to demonstrate that this issue is widely experienced and widely repeatable. That this has been identified and widely discussed on a public forum should be of interest to them.

 

For what it's worth, I tried my new, UK market, Etrex 30 in the car park at work yesterday, and was able to encounter this issue quite easily - walking slowly, the tracklogs were sticky and all over the place. As soon as I started walking quickly, the tracklogs were literally metre-perfect: repeatable squares laid down right on top of each other. For my main use of the GPS, the issue isn't a big deal, but I can see for regular geocachers it's a significant problem and a failing of the unit.

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user13371

+user13371

Posted
Posted (edited)

A side observation: It used to be when I commented or complained about something around here, some folks would disregard my opinion because no matter how many posts I had, I hadn't found very many geocaches. After I got up around 500 or so, I don't hear that argument as much.

 

Now, I don't want to disregard anyone's concern about this issue, but I have noticed the ones making the most comments on this seem to be folks who have found relatively few caches. There ARE a few high-find-count folks commenting also -- but the most comments are coming from low-find-count users.

 

Is it possible that experienced, high-count finders - even those who notice and acknowledge that low speed filtering and static navigation can cause problems -- just don't care? Because they know that's a reasonable limitation of the equipment and know how to work around it?

 

I used to have a Magellan SporTrak Pro that had the most amazing low-speed awareness. I could walk along and the position numbers would tick off second by second. I could stop moving and in a second or two it would report it was averaging my position. I could then slowly move the GPS from one hand into the other -- and it would STOP averaging and try to update. I had no idea how it did that but I was amazed and thought it was the coolest, best thing in the world And it had to be accurate within a distance smaller than I could move my hands apart, right?

 

Erm, not so much. Go read old threads on those devices and you'll read about the "sling-shot effect" -- and arguments that sound like the looking-glass version of this "sticky" argument. Some folks insisted it was terrible and made the GPS unusable, other said it didn't exist, other said it existed but wasn't a problem because they knew what to expect and how to deal with it.

 

The numbers reported by a GPS are best-guess from the math it's doing. My old SporTrak and my new eTrex used different somewhat maths and different ways of guessing, each imperfect in different ways.

 

Go out and find some more caches. Instead of complaining about the limitations of the GPS, learn what to expect and how to work with it. And after a few hundred outings, if it really and truly is impossible to use -- then return it, eBay it, get rid of it -- and go buy something else.

Edited by Portland Cyclist
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