What good is a guideline/rule if it is unenforceable

[+Walts Hunting]

I came across a proxy tag for a trackable and checking the page for it discovered:

 

The owner was making clones and sending them out

The owner was telling people who found it to make their own clones

 

Knowing this problem had been addressed before I dropped a note to the lackeys and got this response.

 

Hi Walter,

 

Thanks for contacting us at Geocaching HQ. This practice is frowned upon by the global geocaching community and I appreciate you taking the time to report it to us. Unfortunately, since the Trackable is considered personal property of the owner, we are unable to place any restrictions upon it.

 

I love your slogan at the bottom of your e-mail signature line...I agree wholeheartedly! Happy caching!

 

Jayme Hewitt

 

So if you want to clone you trackable a few hundred times go ahead.

[Pup Patrol]

That's not what the has been said by Eartha here.

 

I think there's all kinds of cross-communication with Groundspeak's Lackeys.

 

I would contact Eartha, if I were you. That seems to be the only way to get action regarding this stuff.

 

 

B.

[Pup Patrol]

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=284196

 

If there are multiple TBs released with one tracking number, and Groundspeak is made aware of it, the TB will be locked. Only one item per tracking number. This is why you want to be sure your trackable is truly missing, before releasing another. But deliberately releasing more than item with the same tracking number is cinsidered abuse of the system. You can report them by writing to contact at geocaching .com.

[+kunarion]

I came across a proxy tag for a trackable and checking the page for it discovered:

 

The owner was making clones and sending them out

The owner was telling people who found it to make their own clones

 

Knowing this problem had been addressed before I dropped a note to the lackeys and got this response.

 

Hi Walter,

 

Thanks for contacting us at Geocaching HQ. This practice is frowned upon by the global geocaching community and I appreciate you taking the time to report it to us. Unfortunately, since the Trackable is considered personal property of the owner, we are unable to place any restrictions upon it.

 

I love your slogan at the bottom of your e-mail signature line...I agree wholeheartedly! Happy caching!

 

Jayme Hewitt

 

So if you want to clone you trackable a few hundred times go ahead.

In your email to the lackeys, what "restrictions" did you request?

 

While trying to find an example of a "locked TB page", I found this fascinating thread from 2005 about Virtual Logs. It discusses facets I've never even considered. Well worth reading the whole thread. It even has posts by Flask and AuntieWeasel! And "Jeremy", whoever that was.

Edited July 16, 2013 by kunarion

[+Walts Hunting]

I gave the URL to the page and said it violated guidelines. I didn't think I had to request anything specific since the resolution was obvious. While there may be differences in opinion I would place communication from the headquarters staff over others. So it appears that official froggie policy is to let people clone their Travelers and get them logged all over the world.

[+Walts Hunting]

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=284196

 

If there are multiple TBs released with one tracking number, and Groundspeak is made aware of it, the TB will be locked. Only one item per tracking number. This is why you want to be sure your trackable is truly missing, before releasing another. But deliberately releasing more than item with the same tracking number is cinsidered abuse of the system. You can report them by writing to contact at geocaching .com.

 

I am not doubting that Eartha said that in 2011 but in 2013 headquarters says it is ok.

 

Let the cloning begin.

 

Just in case you want to see it. http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?guid=97802887-e119-4e02-9d92-50ee4e9acfe3

Edited July 16, 2013 by Walts Hunting

[+kunarion]

I am not doubting that Eartha said that in 2011 but in 2013 headquarters says it is ok.

 

Let the cloning begin.

Now about all the previous Trackables locked due to too many "virtual" logs... is headquarters unlocking them all? Or is there a process?

[+Sagefox]

...Unfortunately, since the Trackable is considered personal property of the owner, we are unable to place any restrictions upon it.

 

It may be that the trackable is personal property but it is using the services of gc.com therefore locking trackables who's owners are abusing this system seems entirely logical and justifiable.

[+kunarion]

...Unfortunately, since the Trackable is considered personal property of the owner, we are unable to place any restrictions upon it.

 

It may be that the trackable is personal property but it is using the services of gc.com therefore locking trackables who's owners are abusing this system seems entirely logical and justifiable.

The reply Walt received seems to be a boilerplate response from Groundspeak. I got a very similar reply to a completely different question, and it didn't address my concerns, as if they hadn't even read my email. It's probably an email reduction plan. I won't write again.

Edited July 16, 2013 by kunarion

[+NanCycle]

I came across a proxy tag for a trackable and checking the page for it discovered:

 

The owner was making clones and sending them out

The owner was telling people who found it to make their own clones

 

Knowing this problem had been addressed before I dropped a note to the lackeys and got this response.

 

Hi Walter,

 

Thanks for contacting us at Geocaching HQ. This practice is frowned upon by the global geocaching community and I appreciate you taking the time to report it to us. Unfortunately, since the Trackable is considered personal property of the owner, we are unable to place any restrictions upon it.

 

I love your slogan at the bottom of your e-mail signature line...I agree wholeheartedly! Happy caching!

 

Jayme Hewitt

 

So if you want to clone you trackable a few hundred times go ahead.

 

At least you got a response. When I reported the same activity (http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=311999) I didn't even get that.

 

This person cloned 2 trackables (TB5BTAK & TB4MJDX) each hundreds of times. I have the tracking number of one of them and I'm thinking of starting to mess with it, grabbing, dipping, everywhere I go--maybe even where I don't.

[+Walts Hunting]

So I guess unless someone contacts Eartha directly no one else seems to care.

[+NanCycle]

So I guess unless someone contacts Eartha directly no one else seems to care.

 

Per Keystone, only a Lackey has the power to lock the trackables; maybe they'll do it if Eartha asks, even though they ignore our reports. But, if they don't care, why should we?

[+kunarion]

But, if they don't care, why should we?

They don't care until they do, like a lightning bolt. So it becomes a problem when a cacher thinks it's OK (or not OK), and it turns out to be the opposite.

 

We can care if we like, but we can't advise cachers on what to do, because of... inconsistency.

Edited July 17, 2013 by kunarion

[+Walts Hunting]

I gues I did my little part by putting that one in the trash.

[7rxc]

Perhaps the problem is simply interpretation of various things. The Lackey is probably correct, GS has no control over how many clones you or anyone else makes... BUT... we've been clearly told many times that ONLY ONE can circulate at a time. That is a different issue to me. There have been many examples on the forums of these mass circulation TB's, many appear to be ignored completely.

 

Probably time for Eartha to at least get an up to date interpretation of the cloning issue for all of us.

 

I can guess what direction that will take when it is suggested that unlimited cloning will cut into sales of NEW TBs. Can you? Why buy more when you can make unlimited use of the ONE number you already have?

 

I'm for one number, one circulating trackable.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+NanCycle]

I can guess what direction that will take when it is suggested that unlimited cloning will cut into sales of NEW TBs. Can you? Why buy more when you can make unlimited use of the ONE number you already have?

 

I'm for one number, one circulating trackable.

 

Doug 7rxc

 

There's a BIG difference between reusing a tracking number when the original has gone missing (so as to not buy more--which is and always has been perfectly acceptable) on the one hand and unlimited cloning (having hundreds of the same number at the same time) on the other.

 

I'm for one number, one circulating trackable at a time.

[+kunarion]

I'm for one number, one circulating trackable.

This could be a choice for the Trackable Owner.

 

1) You may have one Trackable per number, with unlimited logs (delete any Virtual logs).

or

2) You may have unlimited duplicates, with logs locked. The TB page is "read only".

 

If you look closely, you'll notice that's in place already. Except that the TO doesn't get to lock the page. If there shall be TB page smackdowns by TPTB, the TO needs much more control over the logs that might cause the smackdown.

 

One other idea is, Cachers could pay a fee for each additional same-numbered tag to be placed, "Discover Only", even some special new kind of "tag". But maybe that's a little too much like some other site...

 

Has there ever been an official explanation why a bazillion fake "Visits" are allowed, but the same number of "Virtual logs" are not? Worse, in the event of all those logs (either kind), it's up to the TO to manually clean up the mess.

 

In case we haven't noticed the obvious, the vast majority of TBs worldwide are currently logged wrong. So by policy, they can all be locked by Groundspeak.

Edited July 18, 2013 by kunarion

[+BlueDeuce]

Hi Walter,

 

Thanks for contacting us at Geocaching HQ. This practice is frowned upon by the global geocaching community and I appreciate you taking the time to report it to us. Unfortunately, since the Trackable is considered personal property of the owner, we are unable to place any restrictions upon it.

 

I love your slogan at the bottom of your e-mail signature line...I agree wholeheartedly! Happy caching!

 

Jayme Hewitt

 

 

Which is why I had my "Don't post photos of tracking numbers" thread unpinned and locked.

 

If they are not willing to stand behind the idea, I'm not going to do it for them.

 

Nice to see that they are now leaving clones to the community. They didn't before.

 

Who here thinks that a strong word by a fellow cacher makes a difference without site support.

Edited July 19, 2013 by BlueDeuce

[+M4RKO]

I gues I did my little part by putting that one in the trash.

 

Is this really the best thing to do? Throwing away someone's trackable just seems wrong to me. I've seen another thread where someone brought up this topic (a trackable with numerous clones in circulation at the same time), and they said they just left it in the cache where they found it, they didn't move it or discover it or anything. I feel like that would have been a better choice...I mean I've seen it stressed all over the forum that TB's are someone else's property....so wouldn't that mean you just threw away someone else's property?

 

I understand that it's against the rules or policy or whatever, but if Groundspeak isn't willing to do anything about it, is it right for us to take it upon ourselves to dispose of someone else's TB? Seems like a dangerous president to set, because I've seen people have issues with TB's that represent/are associated with things that they don't approve of, or maybe that they just don't think should be included in geocaching; like a trackable dog tag attached to a mini copy of the Bible, or a rosary (I actually recently picked up a Buddhist rosary TB), or things of that ilk that are likely to cause controversy. I'd hate for people to just start throwing away any TB they didn't approve of...

 

But I'll admit I'm still learning, so I figured I'd ask...is it okay to throw someone else's TB away, in this situation or any other?

[+kunarion]

I'll admit I'm still learning, so I figured I'd ask...is it okay to throw someone else's TB away, in this situation or any other?

If you trade up or equal for the item, you may do as you wish.

 

But throwing out the clones on principle may or may not be a good idea. If the clone was made without the TO's knowledge, the main thing is to let the TO know there's an issue. In that case, all but one should be removed from circulation before the page gets locked.

 

If too many clones are out there, the TB page can get locked. Once that happens, the alleged problem (server load) has been addressed by Groundspeak. At that point, the clones are causing no problem, so if the TO is cool with that, who am I to throw them out?

Edited July 22, 2013 by kunarion

[+dprovan]

Throwing away someone's trackable just seems wrong to me.

Interesting point. The clone I ran into was just a small heavy paper card, so I didn't have any trouble seeing it as trash and throwing it away. If someone minted a bunch of coins with the same trackable number, that would be different. At some point there's a line between a worthless duplicate and a valuable alternative.

[+Eartha]

No. Do not go ahead. If someone jumps off the Brooklyn Bridge, are you going follow? It is abuse of the system. Plesse don't suggest that others do this too.

The problem is there is no way to control the many trackables out there and what people are doing with them. There was a time when this would get a trackable locked. I have not been informed that this has changed.

[+Eartha]

Please send me links.

[+NanCycle]

Please send me links.

 

And when this accomplishes nothing, is that a sign that the guideline/rule is completely out the window?

 

I sent links to 2 a week ago and both are still active.

[+Kacher82]

Throwing away someone's trackable just seems wrong to me.

Interesting point. The clone I ran into was just a small heavy paper card, so I didn't have any trouble seeing it as trash and throwing it away. If someone minted a bunch of coins with the same trackable number, that would be different. At some point there's a line between a worthless duplicate and a valuable alternative.

I picked up a wooden nickel with 2 tracking numbers on it. Going to the TB pages and realizing they were obvious clones, I had no qualms about trashing it.

[+J-dawg_the_Pirate]

I am new to Geocaching and was going to buy some coins and TBs, after reading this thread and the one from several years ago linked in this thread I am not sure if it is a good idea. So, if I pay money for a coin it is likely that someone will just take it for a collection? Someone might make my travel bug into 100 clones? Is this a common thing?

[+kunarion]

So, if I pay money for a coin it is likely that someone will just take it for a collection?

Maybe. But the most common way they vanish is someone puts the Trackable in a bag or something, and forgets about it.

 

If you're concerned about loss, you don't have to place the items into caches. There are fun ways to use your Trackables and still keep them. Even keeping them unactivated in mint condition. If you buy nice Geocoins you like, keep them or trade them.

 

If you want to place a Trackable just to see how it travels, place a Travel Bug. Attach nothing sentimental to you, nor especially “cool” or desirable. One of my TBs had a $3 toy that soon was rare and selling for $120. That's no good.

 

If a TB eventually vanishes, make a new version of it. Maybe after one year of no logs. Plan to revive it, and decide whether to keep it or to place it and let it travel again.

Edited August 7, 2013 by kunarion

[+Kacher82]

I am new to Geocaching and was going to buy some coins and TBs, after reading this thread and the one from several years ago linked in this thread I am not sure if it is a good idea. So, if I pay money for a coin it is likely that someone will just take it for a collection?

I've had 4 or 5 trackables that have gone missing or been in someone's possession for over a year, out of 12 that I've released. Most or all, I believe, would be because of faulty logging or forgetfulness (I like to think so, anyway). One was picked up by someone from the only cache he found.

Someone might make my travel bug into 100 clones? Is this a common thing?

Not very common. I believe most clones would be people cloning their own trackable for some reason. I've only seen one, and that was the case there.