INTRO APP users are killing the hobby

[+BeorntheViking]

Hello all!

I have to say this has been an interesting discussion! I am one of the people who started out geocaching just this past spring using the free geocaching app, actually my fiancee did as well. We both got hooked instantly!

 

I heard of geocaching before and downloaded the app to look at things. I had not found a cache yet but was really impressed with how many caches were in my area, some I walked by hundreds of times and never knew they were there! I joined geocaching before finding my first cache so I could research things like rules, etiquette, etc. I also told my girlfriend, now Fiancee, about Geocaching and she had heard of it before as her brother and sister-in-law are geocachers. She was interested in trying it.

 

We found our First cache together was 4/7/2013 (GLAKR9R8). She joined geocaching.com that day and we both became premium members shortly after (6/7/13). After that we got the kids involved...they are interested but not as hooked as us so they don't have a premium membership, just a standard one for them...for now.

 

So now we both have 71 caches found, I am a travel bug freak..if I can slap a tag on it and send it out I do (even have one on my car)! We are also looking in the area for our first cache placement, already have a few containers to keep our options open.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that the free version is not ALL that bad..there are always success stories.

 

Now..to comment on the topic more directly as to a solution...I have played video games that force you to play a trial version...tutorial steps in order to play the more live part of the game. The problem is in a virtual setting it is MUCH easier to do that than a real world setting. The only way I could see it working in a geocaching way is to have people volunteer to do introductory caches.

 

How to set this up?

 

Well...maybe have the ICO (Introductory Cache Owner) be similar to the reviewer accounts for new caches. An account that can be handed over to other people as people move, burn out or just want to pass the torch. You would need a lot of these accounts though as the range of caches would be problematic. I mean how many cities/towns/miles or whatever would each ICO cover? And on top of that it would probably have to change from region to region depending on population, geography, etc.

 

The caches themselves? not more than 5-10...Maybe a sampling of Difficulties and Terrains as well as a more simple Multi just to keep it interesting? I don't know..these are ideas that are just coming to mind.

 

Ok I will shut up for now.

[+NeverSummer]

 

While Groundspeak may have not foresaw the problems that some existing geocachers would like to blame on the intro app, I don't believe they created it to leave newbies in a vacuum. Instead they provided an app that:

・picks three of the best nearby geocaches for beginners

・provides tips and instructions to guide you through finding a geocache and what to do when you do find it

・displays the number of geocaches within five miles (to encourage users to persue geocaching further)

・Has an easy-to-use design and interface

・Allows an upgrade to Geocaching Premium from within the app to find even more geocaches

 

Certainly sounds like the idea is to get newbies geocaching quickly and have fun. Will newbies make mistakes? Sure, as most of us did when we started with the website. Can more be done? Probably. I haven't used the app, but is does seems that more information can be given out in the tips and instructions, and that the Geocaching 101 content, including videos, could be part of the app. Links to the forum and the help center might also encourage use of these resources.

Right. Yes. Uh-huh.

 

But, the unforseen issue is how use of the app does not bring you to where the conversations happen, where the rules are held, and where the game's full force of content is available.

 

If one happens onto the app in one way or another, they don't know that there is something else out there for this game. Apps are inherently insular items. Aside from encyclopedic apps (Audubon birds, e.g.), they are all self contained, and most are not linked to, or related to a need to go somewhere else for information.

 

HuffPost scrapes their own news for their app and makes it easy to read. No need for their website anymore. Angry Birds keeps me onscreen, slingin' feathers at pigs without any interface to a website.

 

Apps are different, and the way this game gets played needs to have a connection back to the website. The app is a tool to use with the site, not something that does a good job to help people learn the finer points of the game.

[+NeverSummer]

Ok I will shut up for now.

Welcome! And no, please don't shut up!

 

It's good to get some input from folks such as yourself. Don't let the growling dogs make you think this is a dog fight. All bark and no bite, really.

[+BeorntheViking]

Ok I will shut up for now.

Welcome! And no, please don't shut up!

 

It's good to get some input from folks such as yourself. Don't let the growling dogs make you think this is a dog fight. All bark and no bite, really.

 

Oh I am not worried about barking and biting. I just felt as if I was rambling and losing my train of thoght on the topic

[Clan Riffster]

Hello all!

Hi Beorn!

(Way kewl nickname, by the way)

 

Welcome to the madness!

 

Someone else mentioned a variable to your suggestion. Something along the lines of having Reviewers place beginner caches. My initial thoughts toward the idea were favorable, though follow up comments made me rethink the idea. Because the game starts at a different geographic spot for everyone, and because, to be effective, there would need to be a certain amount of caches available for each beginner, the sheer volume of caches needed would become problematic, at best.

[+candis&shane]

It is way too easy for just anyone to walk out the door and start finding caches with no direction or any clue as to what this hobby is about. I know, i did it. I'm new to this and totally get what the op is saying. Allot of these problems could be weeded out with a few simple changes and requirements.

Of course there is email validation, but why couldn't they make any newcomers run a gauntlet to weed out the ones that see a story about geocaching and immediately think they are Bear Grylls. They could make the intro app force them to answer specific questions to which the answers are on the website. Quiz em dizzy and if they really wanna cache, they'll do it. Do this before even 1cache can be found.

Make a minimum find count mandatory before they can even access a cache submittal form.

Do away with basic members being able to search for a way to find premium caches. I know they said this hobby would never be one that you had to pay to play, so maybe premium members would agree to hide at least one non-premium cache for every three or so premium hides in exchange. Let the intro app focus heavily on teaching and push them towards the website and becoming premium members.

Drastic maybe, but you know what they say....drastic calls time for measuring drastically..that seems wrong. Anyway sorry for rambling, happy trails!

[+cerberus1]

It is way too easy for just anyone to walk out the door and start finding caches with no direction or any clue as to what this hobby is about. I know, i did it. I'm new to this and totally get what the op is saying. Allot of these problems could be weeded out with a few simple changes and requirements.

Of course there is email validation, but why couldn't they make any newcomers run a gauntlet to weed out the ones that see a story about geocaching and immediately think they are Bear Grylls. They could make the intro app force them to answer specific questions to which the answers are on the website. Quiz em dizzy and if they really wanna cache, they'll do it. Do this before even 1cache can be found.

Make a minimum find count mandatory before they can even access a cache submittal form.

Do away with basic members being able to search for a way to find premium caches. I know they said this hobby would never be one that you had to pay to play, so maybe premium members would agree to hide at least one non-premium cache for every three or so premium hides in exchange. Let the intro app focus heavily on teaching and push them towards the website and becoming premium members.

Drastic maybe, but you know what they say....drastic calls time for measuring drastically..that seems wrong. Anyway sorry for rambling, happy trails!

Different to hear this from one so new and I was with you until you mentioned find counts and basic members not accessing premium hides.

The subject is the intro app, not basic members hiding caches or finding PMO hides.

There's quite a few threads on those subjects.

[+tozainamboku]

Apps are inherently insular items. Aside from encyclopedic apps (Audubon birds, e.g.), they are all self contained, and most are not linked to, or related to a need to go somewhere else for information.

There are plenty of apps that contain a web browser to display information from a website or that launch a standalone browser.

 

I believe apps users are capable of clicking a button to see an FAQ. The Geocaching 101 content on the website could easily be exposed in the intro app. One can even play videos directly from an app.

 

What hasn't been proven is that the lack of access to this information is really causing a problem. While anecdotal reports are fine and good, they don't really reveal if the problem is major. Newbies have always made mistakes and mishandled geocaches and trackables (and there have always been threads on the forum complaining of this). It may be that phone app means there are a lot more newbies. It may even be that Intro app newbies are more likely to cause problems than website newbies - but this is only speculation. Rather than completely changing the Intro App to fix a perceived problem, with unproven solutions, I'd prefer Groundspeak to just make a few tweaks to expose some of the "background" material everyone says is missing.

 

If I were to get the Intro App, I'd expect it to be for going out and finding geocaches. There may be some restrictions (after all it is a free app and they want me to buy the full app). It may even give tips and instructions to guide me through my first hunt. But I'd still be expecting to be able to find some caches with it before deciding that I want to spend more to continue with geocaching.

 

Turning it into a training simulation seems wrong. And I tend to doubt that there will be enough people who want to designate there caches as Intro caches - at least for a while. I also object, as a staunch defender of everything lame (SDOEL), with the idea that reviewers select the intro caches. I still believe that many people have gotten hooked because of that LPC down the street who would never have started caching if they had to hike to their first cache or even if they had to drive very far.

[+colleda]

Getting back to the OP. The free app hasn't affected us or our ability to participate. How can it?

[+NeverSummer]

Apps are inherently insular items. Aside from encyclopedic apps (Audubon birds, e.g.), they are all self contained, and most are not linked to, or related to a need to go somewhere else for information.

There are plenty of apps that contain a web browser to display information from a website or that launch a standalone browser.

 

You picked the wrong nit. See my comment about HuffPost. I know some apps have a "browser" of sorts, but the Geocaching.com app does not. That is a problem.

 

Getting back to the OP. The free app hasn't affected us or our ability to participate. How can it?

The app itself doesn't affect you, or anyone that much. What affects us all is when a new usergroup does not receive the necessary background information they should have to play a very complicated game.

 

When a newbie who has only used the Intro App decides to go and place a buried cache on NPS land, we will all be affected. When a newbie who doesn't know what the use is for a DNF, NM or NA log is, we all are affected. When a newbie doesn't know where to go to find the information that they might seek, it affects them.

 

My hope is to see a more knowledgeable user base, and there are issues with the Intro and full app that need to be addressed.

[+colleda]

Apps are inherently insular items. Aside from encyclopedic apps (Audubon birds, e.g.), they are all self contained, and most are not linked to, or related to a need to go somewhere else for information.

There are plenty of apps that contain a web browser to display information from a website or that launch a standalone browser.

 

You picked the wrong nit. See my comment about HuffPost. I know some apps have a "browser" of sorts, but the Geocaching.com app does not. That is a problem.

 

Getting back to the OP. The free app hasn't affected us or our ability to participate. How can it?

The app itself doesn't affect you, or anyone that much. What affects us all is when a new usergroup does not receive the necessary background information they should have to play a very complicated game.

 

When a newbie who has only used the Intro App decides to go and place a buried cache on NPS land, we will all be affected. When a newbie who doesn't know what the use is for a DNF, NM or NA log is, we all are affected. When a newbie doesn't know where to go to find the information that they might seek, it affects them.

 

My hope is to see a more knowledgeable user base, and there are issues with the Intro and full app that need to be addressed.

 

And hasn't that always been the case regardless of smartphone apps? There will always be those that think they know all without doing any research.

[+NeverSummer]

 

And hasn't that always been the case regardless of smartphone apps? There will always be those that think they know all without doing any research.

That would be quite the Master's thesis if someone in an outdoor rec program needs a topic.

 

But the thing is, before apps, you had to come to the site to cache.

 

Anecdotally, I don't recall as much of this kind of angst pre app.

 

Factually, users who happen on this game via their app store won't have to interact with the website, which houses the tips, guidelines, and requirements for this game. They won't know how to play, verus making a conscious decision to not learn how to play.

[+Ike 13]

There will always be those that think they know all without doing any research.

Yes that is true. But let's think about why so many feel that there may be more issues with the App crowd. 4 years ago to find a cache you had to come to this site, sign up with your email, purchase a GPS, research how to use it, and at least browse cache pages. Now you can just click an app and hit route and not know anything other than there is something "small" here. There is no longer any time spent doing any beginning research that IMHO made caching easier for me and eventually more enjoyable.

 

As far as issues with missing trackables and messed up hides, let's say 4 years ago there were issues with 5% of new cachers. Even if that percentage remains the same with the App crowd the sheer increase of people having access to that would increase the number of potential issues. I do think there is the potential for new cachers who use the App to hurt the hobby even if it's due to just ignorance (we were all there at some point). I think a little education through the App is a great way to make caching more enjoyable which increases the likelihood of them sticking around. Plus it will eliminate those potential issues. That's a win-win.

 

Heck videos like this one

in the newsletter are already out there and should be integrated into the App fairly easily

[+thebruce0]

Factually, users who happen on this game via their app store won't have to interact with the website, which houses the tips, guidelines, and requirements for this game. They won't know how to play, verus making a conscious decision to not learn how to play.

As mentioned above, the "website" isn't required to gain that knowledge - the app just needs to provide it properly.

 

I agree that it's possible someone could download the app, and think it's another one of location-based games, register for an account, and start grabbing a few. Find and log all within the app, no need for the "website". Then perhaps drop the app if they didn't enjoy the experience.

 

1) placing an app still requires more research and steps to know what to do and how. I'd be very surprised if someone didn't visit the website somewhere in the process of doing so.

2) necessary faqs, guidelines, and UI features to 'teach' properly can easily be incorporated into the app experience.

3) doing so would require more time and effort on Groundspeak's part if they felt it worth it. Yet other 3rd party apps (which may also introduce people to geocaching) won't gain the benefits of the "intro app" adjustments.

 

Once again I promote the idea of creating (or utilizing) a property of caches that somehow provide the listing with some sort of beginner-friendly rating, something that other apps can also see and use if they wish.

 

Groundspeak's Intro App can be adjusted so the experience is more friendly to beginners, but ultimately the cache listings should ideally provide some way to know what caches are considered 'beginner' so it can be passed down through the API.

 

Also, can't get past this; just bugs me

HuffPost scrapes their own news for their app and makes it easy to read. No need for their website anymore. Angry Birds keeps me onscreen, slingin' feathers at pigs without any interface to a website.

HP scrapes their news.. but no need for a website?

Scraping is reading the website as is and extracting the info you want for reuse how you see fit. Scraping the website necessarily requires the website (and is a controversial practice, to say the least)

I think what you intended to say was that HP provides an alternate source or method for reading news in a mobile app.

Websites can also provide an alternate mobile-friendly view for a web page when it detects you're using a mobile browser, without having the render the full 'desktop' view first. (that is, visit whatever.com on your phone and you see a mobile website - same url). There are many ways around web content display...

 

So, what do you mean by "website"? Many apps actually even embed a browser that displays a mobile-friendly web page as if it were the app itself, via a url. Is that the website? Or is that the app?

 

For the record, the GC app does have an in-app browser. You can view any listing on geocaching.com. Though that's about the extent to which it goes, from what I can tell. (I prefer Geosphere, for many reasons.)

 

----

tl;dr?

A) Intro App user interface should be a little more informative and user friendly for beginners (as well as provide a greater website 'presence')

Cache listings should include some indicator of beginner friendliness (how this is done - that, IMO, should be the subject of this thread)

C) Smartphones and apps should stop being dumped on, generally speaking

Edited November 19, 2013 by thebruce0

[+thebruce0]

Another idea:

 

Incorporate a beginner-friendly point system. Just like favorite points, though likely much less used.

 

When someone logs a find, they can choose to add such a point if they feel the cache is beginner friendly.

1) This puts the task on the local community instead of choosing reviewers or creating another tier of volunteers for the task

2) Like favorite points, potential abuse would be unavoidable, but at least the Good players would eventually weed out the Bad players

3) Being more localized, "beginner" to one region may not be the same "beginner" to another - but this is a good thing. Most likely someone using it would be primarily localized anyway, so they wouldn't know the difference. The rating becomes beginner friendly relative to that region

4) If included in the API, an app can decide on a sufficient 'threshold' for showing beginner friendly caches. Loose could mean showing anything with 2 or more points. Tighten it up to show only the 'cream of the crop' with a certain distance. eg, show me the top 10 beginner rated caches within a 10km radius.

5) The CO could easily opt their cache out of the beginner point system if they don't want it to be available to beginners at all (much like the PMO feature to be exclusive to paying members)

6) Perhaps COs could have the added ability to override/reduce (not increase) the current point rating on their cache if they don't want it to draw as much attention, yet still be available for beginners. (though that's taking the system to the extreme, imo - but the flexibility is there)

7) Cachers can entirely ignore that point system if they don't care about adding those points to caches they find. Adding points does nothing for them or their profile, it's more a 'good samaritan' type of thing, thinking about newcomers. Heck, casual cachers could use that point rating in gauging difficulty on top of the D rating.

8) Sure, some places might get loads of LPCs with beginner points, but as this thread has shown - YMMV about that. To combat it, give points to more non-LPC caches if you think they're better for beginners.

9) Even more restrictive - only allow premium members to give beginner points to caches. Groundspeak already has a swath invested community paying to play the game; if the PMs want to promote a 'better' game, they can promote the caches they feel set the pace in their community for "good" caching.

 

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of beginner-friendly points...

Edited November 19, 2013 by thebruce0

[+Team Microdot]

For the record, the GC app does have an in-app browser. You can view any listing on geocaching.com. Though that's about the extent to which it goes, from what I can tell. (I prefer Geosphere, for many reasons.)

 

Does it really have an in-app browser?

 

Or does it just invoke the default browser installed on your device and send it the required URL?

[+Semper Questio]

At the very least require ALL users to register with, and validate, an email address in order to, at the very least, log, if not even seek, geocaches. How the heck are we supposed to reach out to new players and help bring them along if we can't even contact them through their profile?

[+thebruce0]

For the record, the GC app does have an in-app browser. You can view any listing on geocaching.com. Though that's about the extent to which it goes, from what I can tell. (I prefer Geosphere, for many reasons.)

 

Does it really have an in-app browser?

 

Or does it just invoke the default browser installed on your device and send it the required URL?

True, my bad. Didn't follow through on that link nonetheless, the website is connected within the app (not like it doesn't exist) *shrug*

[+tozainamboku]

Apps are inherently insular items. Aside from encyclopedic apps (Audubon birds, e.g.), they are all self contained, and most are not linked to, or related to a need to go somewhere else for information.

There are plenty of apps that contain a web browser to display information from a website or that launch a standalone browser.

 

You picked the wrong nit. See my comment about HuffPost. I know some apps have a "browser" of sorts, but the Geocaching.com app does not. That is a problem.

Let's not be nit picking, then. I have no objection the app providing addition information. It already provides tips and instruction on finding caches. It should provide, at a minimum, information about where to find out more, and probably could incorporate some material from the Geocaching 101 section.

 

My issue is with the suggestion to change the Intro App into a geocaching lesson app. I see it as a geocaching app for the casual user or someone who just wants to try out geocaching. IMO, Groundspeak would better spend the development effort elsewhere, instead of creating a entirely new app based on speculation that the existing Intro app is causing the demise of geocaching.

Edited November 19, 2013 by tozainamboku

[+Team Microdot]

Can't remember if I've seen one before but this morning on a cache from my watchlist I got a I found this geocache using the Geocaching Intro App. TFTC!

 

The log is by the CO - on their own cache.

 

Looking at their previous finds they've logged finds on other caches multiple times - my guess being that they've logged from the phone and, lacking confidence that it had completed, logged again.

 

The hide is a film pot stuffed in a hedge full of thorns and the coords are well out.

 

QED?

 

I thought I would embrace the idea that we should reach out to newbies (not that I haven't already done so in the past).

 

Strictly speaking, that's a fib - I asked my friend who had found the newbie's cache to reach out and offer guidance as I thought it might be odd and slightly Big Brother Is Watching You if I contacted them out of the blue - having not found their cache...

 

Newbie didn't reply.

 

Reaching out phail

[+candis&shane]

It is way too easy for just anyone to walk out the door and start finding caches with no direction or any clue as to what this hobby is about. I know, i did it. I'm new to this and totally get what the op is saying. Allot of these problems could be weeded out with a few simple changes and requirements.

Of course there is email validation, but why couldn't they make any newcomers run a gauntlet to weed out the ones that see a story about geocaching and immediately think they are Bear Grylls. They could make the intro app force them to answer specific questions to which the answers are on the website. Quiz em dizzy and if they really wanna cache, they'll do it. Do this before even 1cache can be found.

Make a minimum find count mandatory before they can even access a cache submittal form.

Do away with basic members being able to search for a way to find premium caches. I know they said this hobby would never be one that you had to pay to play, so maybe premium members would agree to hide at least one non-premium cache for every three or so premium hides in exchange. Let the intro app focus heavily on teaching and push them towards the website and becoming premium members.

Drastic maybe, but you know what they say....drastic calls time for measuring drastically..that seems wrong. Anyway sorry for rambling, happy trails!

Different to hear this from one so new and I was with you until you mentioned find counts and basic members not accessing premium hides.

The subject is the intro app, not basic members hiding caches or finding PMO hides.

There's quite a few threads on those subjects.

Yes i know however the EASE of downloading the app and hitting the trails without being made to understand even the basics contributes directly to newbies sticking caches any and everywhere and finding people's caches and not doing things correctly. Thus leading to all the threads on those subjects. Bottom line, MAKE them get the know-how and maybe they will hide better caches, not take a trackable and give it to the kids to lose, and not steal break or whatever else co's complain of them doing.

[+NeverSummer]

 

Also, can't get past this; just bugs me

HuffPost scrapes their own news for their app and makes it easy to read. No need for their website anymore. Angry Birds keeps me onscreen, slingin' feathers at pigs without any interface to a website.

HP scrapes their news.. but no need for a website?

Scraping is reading the website as is and extracting the info you want for reuse how you see fit. Scraping the website necessarily requires the website (and is a controversial practice, to say the least)

I think what you intended to say was that HP provides an alternate source or method for reading news in a mobile app.

Websites can also provide an alternate mobile-friendly view for a web page when it detects you're using a mobile browser, without having the render the full 'desktop' view first. (that is, visit whatever.com on your phone and you see a mobile website - same url). There are many ways around web content display...

 

<snip>

For the record, the GC app does have an in-app browser. You can view any listing on geocaching.com. Though that's about the extent to which it goes, from what I can tell. (I prefer Geosphere, for many reasons.)

Right. That's what I'm saying. Geocaching.com is not smartphone optimized. I meant that the HuffPost App makes something for smartphone users so that they don't even need the website anymore. It becomes a standalone news source. I was using those examples to show that once you use those apps, you really don't need to visit their websites unless you really want to. The Geocaching app is the same, and that's a problem because of the necessary background needed to play that game apart from what is provided in the app itself.

 

But, to that last part, don't mistake the fact that you get asked if you want to view a single cache in the app or on the website to mean that it is a smartphone-optimized interface of the website that you're directed to. It's the cumbersome, "I have to enlarge and tap to navigate anywhere, and usually with dropdowns that are difficult to navigate through because of the main tab click taking you to that link and not the dropdown..."

So, what do you mean by "website"? Many apps actually even embed a browser that displays a mobile-friendly web page as if it were the app itself, via a url. Is that the website? Or is that the app?

That is an optimized mobile version of the standard website. The url redirects to the mobile site when it sees that you are visiting from a handheld device such as a smartphone or mobile tablet.

 

I'm nowhere close to "dumping on" apps. I use mine 95% of the time to find caches. If you follow the rest of the thread, you'll see where the issues lie. And that is within the Intro App, and how it should help people learn more about the game than just tips such as "look for a pile of sticks that look out of place!" Those are tips which make good hints. Tips should be things like, "Geocaches are never buried. Visit the guidelines to learn more"

 

Even the $10 app should have a "beginner mode" for those who want or need to learn a little more about the game. The fact that you can now plug-and-play for $10 makes for less interaction with the website--where all of the knowledge books and guidelines are held.

 

The app is great for finding caches and logging them in real time, but not good for maintaining your account, viewing your own caches, performing logging and maintenance logging on your owned caches in a simple interface, finding the guidelines, or generally learning more about the game.

 

Again, before dedicated mainstream geocaching apps were on the market, one had to log onto the website to get coordinates and load them on your GPSr or other device. That time on the site also presented the full content of the Groundspeak encyclopedia at a click.

 

Apps bypass this entire process, and that is validly troublesome to some.

[+thebruce0]

Apps bypass this entire process, and that is validly troublesome to some.

I believe you're agreeing that they don't have to, only that they do.

The question is whether the apps should push people to the website to get what they're missing, or whether the app can be improved to provide that information to the user. (or, whatever solution is employed to make the beginning cacher's experience better on the whole).

 

And just a point of clarification:

That is an optimized mobile version of the standard website. The url redirects to the mobile site when it sees that you are visiting from a handheld device such as a smartphone or mobile tablet.

In some cases. In other cases the URL doesn't change. The URL doesn't need to change - the browser identity is sent with the url request, so the website can decide whether to just display the mobile site AS the url you request, or to redirect the mobile browser to a different, mobile template.

Point being "website", in the context you're referring to, is effectively viewing a web page knowing you're in a web browser, of any kind. Because an "app" can still display a website in a mobile form, and the user may never know it. Effectively: websites aren't dead; they're just a dynamic method for delivering content. This means that if the Intro App were to improve the beginner user experience, it simply needs to provide the "missing"/desired content to the user in some manner - whether as a web page, in-app or bumped externally, or as part of the app UI in some way.

 

Even so, I stand by my point above that it's not just about the 'intro app' user experience. That's treating a symptom instead of the core problem. It's really primarily a data thing - that all users tools accessing cache data should have the ability to provide a more specialized introductory experience. I'm with others in that encouraging Groundspeak to pour too much effort into their Intro App likely won't be as effective as other strategies. It could address the default find log issue, which is directly due to the intro app, but it doesn't directly address the problem many have with the general lack of knowledge of beginner cachers.

[+tozainamboku]

You can lead a horse to the feed, but you can't make it browse.

[+K13]

At the very least require ALL users to register with, and validate, an email address in order to, at the very least, log, if not even seek, geocaches. How the heck are we supposed to reach out to new players and help bring them along if we can't even contact them through their profile?

 

This is paramount to the subject of ALL new users.

I'm thinking about checking the e-logs on my caches for non-validated members/emails, and deleting their logs. How would they know?

If everyone did this, would the App show those caches (now with no Found It log) to the noobs over, and over again?

[+Semper Questio]

At the very least require ALL users to register with, and validate, an email address in order to, at the very least, log, if not even seek, geocaches. How the heck are we supposed to reach out to new players and help bring them along if we can't even contact them through their profile?

 

This is paramount to the subject of ALL new users.

I'm thinking about checking the e-logs on my caches for non-validated members/emails, and deleting their logs. How would they know?

If everyone did this, would the App show those caches (now with no Found It log) to the noobs over, and over again?

 

DANG IT! I wish I had thought of that!

[+cerberus1]

At the very least require ALL users to register with, and validate, an email address in order to, at the very least, log, if not even seek, geocaches. How the heck are we supposed to reach out to new players and help bring them along if we can't even contact them through their profile?

 

This is paramount to the subject of ALL new users.

I'm thinking about checking the e-logs on my caches for non-validated members/emails, and deleting their logs. How would they know?

If everyone did this, would the App show those caches (now with no Found It log) to the noobs over, and over again?

 

DANG IT! I wish I had thought of that!

Brilliant ! You first.

 

We've said in forums a few times, that some odd reason, CJ's "5" hide gets the most unvalidated-member logs.

Seeing it and accessing are different and she has it written on the cache page that she's not playin' that way.

We finally stopped sending emails explaining why, as after they're deleted, not one has ever responded.

[+JesandTodd]

At the very least require ALL users to register with, and validate, an email address in order to, at the very least, log, if not even seek, geocaches. How the heck are we supposed to reach out to new players and help bring them along if we can't even contact them through their profile?

 

Recently, 2 newbies have found my caches. I contacted one of them, welcomed them to the game, asked them if they saw any bugs in the cache (there are 3!) and offered any assistance, hints, and tips.

 

Didn't hear back from that one.

 

The next one had an unvalidated email.

 

I've also had unvalidated logs on my Earthcache that just say, "cool"

 

I've got not way to contact them to explain what an Earthcache is and how to claim them.

 

I think I remember GS saying they were talking about the email validation thing. But IMO it should be a TOP priority.

[7rxc]

 

I think I remember GS saying they were talking about the email validation thing. But IMO it should be a TOP priority.

 

Yep! And followed by a check on why Experienced cachers SEEM to ignore (even PMs ) emails sent by any method at all. IF I went by Geocachers, I'd suspect that more than 80% of sent emails dissappear or are not delivered.

 

I know well about users not dealing well with the anonymous mailer. I usually mention specifically that it should work by clicking reply (I do include my return email in messages to people I've not had contact with). But what about those I'm already in contact with... did they change email addresses or simply re direct to their spam folders? That part about easily being able for them to respond is part of what needs to be fixed up. Having an address to send to initially is big, but not the only problem. The other day I mentioned that it would be nice to get a Private Message through to people who do NOT visit the forums... but that doesn't happen now that I know of. Unless they come to the forums. Could that information not be displayed on GC.com and others as well?

 

On topic, I also ask... we talk about the intro app and others, but what I read in the topic header asks about the USERS of said app, but seems to focus on the app itself, which seems off topic to me. The need to focus on educating the new user to the game is what is important, not the tool used. The app may be the means to educate a bit, but promoting the sites via tour or demo is important.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+giddeanx]

You can lead a horse to the feed, but you can't make it browse.

You thought big thumbs were a problem while using a smartphone, hooves are impossible.

[NottheMuggle]

As someone fairly new to the hunt, I use the main site to some degree, but for the most part, I use my phone. I don't use the Intro App, so I'm not familiar with its pros and cons.

 

But if I may make a suggestion to a plausible solution. Use the intro app as a tool that will help those new to the hunt by:

 

1. Making the app a closed pre-programmed set of caches that users can hunt. These caches would be simple traditionals with nothing worth stealing and secured in such a way that they can't be stolen or damaged beyond use.

 

2. The App AND caches send the new hunters to the main GC website, 101 youtube videos, and/or local GC groups FB pages.

 

3. Cache Owners that agree to have their caches featured as a "tutorial cache" need to be veteran hunters that are willing to contact the new hunters and either offer to be a mentor or be able to make arrangements with other veteran hunters in the area.

[+terratin]

Can't remember if I've seen one before but this morning on a cache from my watchlist I got a I found this geocache using the Geocaching Intro App. TFTC!

 

The log is by the CO - on their own cache.

 

Looking at their previous finds they've logged finds on other caches multiple times - my guess being that they've logged from the phone and, lacking confidence that it had completed, logged again.

 

The hide is a film pot stuffed in a hedge full of thorns and the coords are well out.

 

QED?

 

if I saw double-logging one of my own caches I'd offer help. I usually send a welcome email and offer for help to new cachers. All assuming they have validated their account of course

 

Mrs. Terratin

[+Team Microdot]

Can't remember if I've seen one before but this morning on a cache from my watchlist I got a I found this geocache using the Geocaching Intro App. TFTC!

 

The log is by the CO - on their own cache.

 

Looking at their previous finds they've logged finds on other caches multiple times - my guess being that they've logged from the phone and, lacking confidence that it had completed, logged again.

 

The hide is a film pot stuffed in a hedge full of thorns and the coords are well out.

 

QED?

 

if I saw double-logging one of my own caches I'd offer help. I usually send a welcome email and offer for help to new cachers. All assuming they have validated their account of course

 

Mrs. Terratin

 

Yes of course - and in this case the log is by the CO - on their own cache.

 

I did ask my friend who has found that same cache to contact the CO to welcome them to the game, provide the offer of help and then guide them gently to the knowledgebase article about logging one's own caches.

 

A week later the CO hasn't responded.

[+Team Microdot]

1. Making the app a closed pre-programmed set of caches that users can hunt. These caches would be simple traditionals with nothing worth stealing and secured in such a way that they can't be stolen or damaged beyond use.

 

This will never happen as GS will never make any judgement on quality or suitability of a cache for a particular purpose.

 

3. Cache Owners that agree to have their caches featured as a "tutorial cache" need to be veteran hunters that are willing to contact the new hunters and either offer to be a mentor or be able to make arrangements with other veteran hunters in the area.

 

Can't really see GS getting involved in this either - geocaching.com is just a listing site. The type of community interaction you describe here is up to each community to organise.

[+thebruce0]

1. Making the app a closed pre-programmed set of caches that users can hunt. These caches would be simple traditionals with nothing worth stealing and secured in such a way that they can't be stolen or damaged beyond use.

 

2. The App AND caches send the new hunters to the main GC website, 101 youtube videos, and/or local GC groups FB pages.

 

3. Cache Owners that agree to have their caches featured as a "tutorial cache" need to be veteran hunters that are willing to contact the new hunters and either offer to be a mentor or be able to make arrangements with other veteran hunters in the area.

Far too much subjectivity and involvement from a higher level. We know that won't happen unless there's a very very very important and urgent reason

 

#2 I think everyone here supports, at least a little more than the app currently does.

 

#1 These "static" caches would have to be worldwide, with at least a few in every possible region someone would cache. Logistical nightmare if not impossible.

[+NeverSummer]

Really, we're looking at this from the wrong side of the fence.

 

We need to think about what Groundspeak wants to have for new geocachers. Meaning, what do the Intro cachers want?

 

Groundspeak knows that if an Intro cacher likes the game, they are more likely to upgrade their app, and possibly upgrade their membership.

 

So, the Intro app users want and need an app that gives them geocaches. Enough of them that they can whet their appetite for more of this game. That's the "highlighted beginner caches" they see within the app. Our counter to that part is to update the beginner caches to exclude micros.

 

Then, we have the "how to play the game" issue. The Intro app has some tips and hints (does anyone have a list of those??), but not much else from what the description says. Our suggestion seems to be that the app should have links to the 101 videos, and even links to the guidelines and knowledgebooks. (I think the links should be displayed every time the app boots up)

 

It's plain to see that anything which limits how many caches, or how the caches are viewed, would not likely be adopted by Groundspeak. So, we should think of how to improve the app so that more people enter the game (good for Groundspeak's bottom line, and good for us to have more players to find/place caches...only if they are of good quality and follow the guidelines...), and so that those who enter the game via the app and not the website have an opportunity to be connected with the important guidelines and background for the game.

 

Let Mun***s and other location-based games have their plug-and-play drop in users. I think the community here really would like to see an informed user base who continues to perpetuate the standards we all hope to see in the playing field.

[Jayme H]

I'm glad Jayme H and Moun10bike stopped by. I'd love to know if this discussion has made it onto any other radars, or has entered any kind of discussion in the conference room at Groundspeak?

Me too!

Inquiring minds want to know?

Wow! What a nice treat to come back from Disneyland to. Sorry for the little absence from the thread guys. Thanks for checking in and being patient while I caught up on the threads.

 

You guys are seriously awesome! Way to take an edgy-ish (new word!) thread and make it into something that can really be useful to us. I so appreciate all of your constructive suggestions and discussion. I have put this thread on my "to do" list. As in: comb through it and make a list of all the great ideas mentioned. Once I do that, I will present it to the people who are looking for ways to make our community happy - taking care of our established community, by educating our newest community members definitely qualifies. You guys really took the time to discuss and flesh out some nice concepts. Loved hearing from both the experienced and looking-for-more-caching-experiences crowds. Thanks for chiming in, everyone!

[+niraD]

1. Making the app a closed pre-programmed set of caches that users can hunt. These caches would be simple traditionals with nothing worth stealing and secured in such a way that they can't be stolen or damaged beyond use.

This will never happen as GS will never make any judgement on quality or suitability of a cache for a particular purpose.

Personally, I found the "can't be stolen or damaged beyond use" part more unlikely. I can't imagine a geocache that could be secured in such a way.

[+Team Microdot]

Really, we're looking at this from the wrong side of the fence.

 

Really, that would rather depend on who you're including in the presently unspecified set of people you're describing as 'we'.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm quite happy that I'm looking at this from the right side of the fence - for me.

 

We need to think about what Groundspeak wants to have for new geocachers. Meaning, what do the Intro cachers want?

 

Do we? Why? Isn't it Groundspeak's job to think about what they want to have for new geocachers? I'm not sure Groundspeak thought about what the existing geocaching community might want when they seemingly granted completely anonymous access to all of our caches to anyone with a smartphone and five minutes to spare

 

Groundspeak knows that if an Intro cacher likes the game, they are more likely to upgrade their app, and possibly upgrade their membership.

 

Possibly - and I'd have to agree that the extra revenue generated could be very useful - provided there was a net balance of overall improvement brought to the game as a result of that influx. If the ever creaking system (we are told) finally tips into the abyss under the weight of new signups, that wouldn't be a good thing.

 

So, the Intro app users want and need an app that gives them geocaches. Enough of them that they can whet their appetite for more of this game. That's the "highlighted beginner caches" they see within the app. Our counter to that part is to update the beginner caches to exclude micros.

 

I would say the first thing intro app users will be looking for is the closest cache to their home coordinates - and then the next nearest, and the next nearest after that - and so on...

 

Then, we have the "how to play the game" issue. The Intro app has some tips and hints (does anyone have a list of those??), but not much else from what the description says. Our suggestion seems to be that the app should have links to the 101 videos, and even links to the guidelines and knowledgebooks. (I think the links should be displayed every time the app boots up)

 

I think a drip-feed tutorial would work better - monitor progress and drip feed information right at the point where it becomes useful so that it's absorbed, rather than trying to funnel new users into the mass of existing documentation which I as a fairly experienced and tech savvy cacher can often struggle to navigate.

 

It's plain to see that anything which limits how many caches, or how the caches are viewed, would not likely be adopted by Groundspeak. So, we should think of how to improve the app so that more people enter the game (good for Groundspeak's bottom line, and good for us to have more players to find/place caches...only if they are of good quality and follow the guidelines...)

 

Again - if there's a net balance of improvement from the influx of new users then that might be a good thing - but there's no way to be sure. Where I come from I see no great need for more cachers or more caches - we're already tripping over them to the point where caching can cease to be an adventure.

 

If the intro app can help new users to become better, more responsible and more creative cachers then that's something I would welcome - and that's about it really for me.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Team Microdot

[+NeverSummer]

Really, we're looking at this from the wrong side of the fence.

 

Really, that would rather depend on who you're including in the presently unspecified set of people you're desribing as 'we'.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm quite happy that I'm looking at this from the right side of the fence - for me.

 

I think that's where you're going to see your head bumping against a wall.

 

If anything can be learned from how suggestions go on the forums, if Groundspeak doesn't have mutual interest, it's not going to happen. They run the show. So, it would be good to look at their side of the fence while still maintaining your perspective on how things should be.

 

That's what I mean, and that's what I am trying to do.

 

Believe me, if you re-read this thread start to finish, you'll see the ideas I've mentioned, and that you and I agree more than you're letting on with your above post.

[+Team Microdot]

Really, we're looking at this from the wrong side of the fence.

 

Really, that would rather depend on who you're including in the presently unspecified set of people you're desribing as 'we'.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm quite happy that I'm looking at this from the right side of the fence - for me.

 

I think that's where you're going to see your head bumping against a wall.

 

If anything can be learned from how suggestions go on the forums, if Groundspeak doesn't have mutual interest, it's not going to happen. They run the show. So, it would be good to look at their side of the fence while still maintaining your perspective on how things should be.

 

That's what I mean, and that's what I am trying to do.

 

Believe me, if you re-read this thread start to finish, you'll see the ideas I've mentioned, and that you and I agree more than you're letting on with your above post.

 

It's a very, very long thread and I'm not inclined to re-read the whole thing.

 

My last post pretty much encapsulates my viewpoint - although I would have to agree based on memory that there's probably a fair degree of alignment between our viewpoints in terms of desirable outcomes, although not necessarily the how's and why's that go along with them.

[+NeverSummer]

It's a very, very long thread and I'm not inclined to re-read the whole thing.

 

My last post pretty much encapsulates my viewpoint - although I would have to agree based on memory that there's probably a fair degree of alignment between our viewpoints in terms of desirable outcomes, although not necessarily the how's and why's that go along with them.

You're missing out on a lot of good discussion, and some very good ideas if all you're going to do is stubbornly not take the time to remind yourself what others have been saying on the subject.

Edited November 22, 2013 by NeverSummer

[+NeverSummer]

It's a very, very long thread and I'm not inclined to re-read the whole thing.

 

My last post pretty much encapsulates my viewpoint - although I would have to agree based on memory that there's probably a fair degree of alignment between our viewpoints in terms of desirable outcomes, although not necessarily the how's and why's that go along with them.

You're missing out on a lot of good discussion, and some very good ideas if all you're going to do is stubbornly not take the time to remind yourself what others have been saying on the subject.

Also, with a chip on your shoulder about where Groundspeak spends its energy for expanding or improving the game and gameplay, this isn't going to be an easy concept to swallow--the idea that we might want to look at this from their side of the fence.

 

Anyway, postitive and/or constructive discussions seem to get the attention of the Lackeys more than overly negaive or disgruntled ones.

[+Team Microdot]

It's a very, very long thread and I'm not inclined to re-read the whole thing.

 

My last post pretty much encapsulates my viewpoint - although I would have to agree based on memory that there's probably a fair degree of alignment between our viewpoints in terms of desirable outcomes, although not necessarily the how's and why's that go along with them.

You're missing out on a lot of good discussion, and some very good ideas if all you're going to do is stubbornly not take the time to remind yourself what others have been saying on the subject.

Also, with a chip on your shoulder about where Groundspeak spends its energy for expanding or improving the game and gameplay, this isn't going to be an easy concept to swallow--the idea that we might want to look at this from their side of the fence.

 

Anyway, postitive and/or constructive discussions seem to get the attention of the Lackeys more than overly negaive or disgruntled ones.

 

Ah - so because I have an opinion which differs from yours I'm not only stubborn - I have a chip on my shoulder

 

And you're trying to educate me on positive / constructive discussion? Really? It's important to remember of course that dialogue is a two way process which doesn't depend on parties agreeing on everything.

 

Where Groundspeak spends its energy for improving those parts of the game and gameplay they can influence is up to them - and the very best of luck to them.

 

Asking me to keep quiet about where I would like to see them spend their energy though is almost as rich as expecting me to re-read the entire thread just because you think I should.

 

You might be happier to know I have the thread on my watch list so I've read pretty much every post - so I think I'm fairly up to speed with most of what's gone on. Hopefully that's OK with you but if it's not - that's cool too

[+RoadAndTheSky]

I'm not going to read all posts, but I agree it's a problem too many fly by nights around I've started using members only on my town cache's the ones in the woods I don't worry about them so much.

[+6NoisyHikers]

Okay, one more time to make the points easy to access for everyone! Please post your top suggestions for the intro app/new user experience.

 

1. Limit of 10 caches, then the intro app goes kaput.

2. User must create an account with a validated email address before any other caches can be accessed.

3. Pop-up tips and links in the intro app and the full app set to "beginner" setting.

4. Mentorship program.

 

Edit to add:

 

5. Minimum 3o day validated membership before being able to hide a cache.

 

(Thanks for reminding me candis&shane!)

Edited November 23, 2013 by 6NoisyHikers

[+candis&shane]

1. Validated email in order for app to even work. One problem solved

2. Mandatory q&a, for which specific answers are obtainable only through website, before caches can be found. This should weed out the "cachers" for who the novelty would wear off quickly, reducing problems with damaged or missing caches, and the ones who find one and then want to stick an altoids tin everywhere.

3. Minimum find count before publishing caches becomes possible.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

1. Validated email in order for app to even work. One problem solved

2. Mandatory q&a, for which specific answers are obtainable only through website, before caches can be found. This should weed out the "cachers" for who the novelty would wear off quickly, reducing problems with damaged or missing caches, and the ones who find one and then want to stick an altoids tin everywhere.

3. Minimum find count before publishing caches becomes possible.

 

I always thought the minimum find count was a good idea but now I'm not sure....it kind of takes the edge off originality.My best hide was the second one I put out and I only had a handful of finds at the time.

[+NeverSummer]

It's a very, very long thread and I'm not inclined to re-read the whole thing.

 

My last post pretty much encapsulates my viewpoint - although I would have to agree based on memory that there's probably a fair degree of alignment between our viewpoints in terms of desirable outcomes, although not necessarily the how's and why's that go along with them.

You're missing out on a lot of good discussion, and some very good ideas if all you're going to do is stubbornly not take the time to remind yourself what others have been saying on the subject.

Also, with a chip on your shoulder about where Groundspeak spends its energy for expanding or improving the game and gameplay, this isn't going to be an easy concept to swallow--the idea that we might want to look at this from their side of the fence.

 

Anyway, postitive and/or constructive discussions seem to get the attention of the Lackeys more than overly negaive or disgruntled ones.

 

Ah - so because I have an opinion which differs from yours I'm not only stubborn - I have a chip on my shoulder

 

And you're trying to educate me on positive / constructive discussion? Really? It's important to remember of course that dialogue is a two way process which doesn't depend on parties agreeing on everything.

 

Where Groundspeak spends its energy for improving those parts of the game and gameplay they can influence is up to them - and the very best of luck to them.

 

Asking me to keep quiet about where I would like to see them spend their energy though is almost as rich as expecting me to re-read the entire thread just because you think I should.

 

You might be happier to know I have the thread on my watch list so I've read pretty much every post - so I think I'm fairly up to speed with most of what's gone on. Hopefully that's OK with you but if it's not - that's cool too

yawn...

[+Team Microdot]

It's a very, very long thread and I'm not inclined to re-read the whole thing.

 

My last post pretty much encapsulates my viewpoint - although I would have to agree based on memory that there's probably a fair degree of alignment between our viewpoints in terms of desirable outcomes, although not necessarily the how's and why's that go along with them.

You're missing out on a lot of good discussion, and some very good ideas if all you're going to do is stubbornly not take the time to remind yourself what others have been saying on the subject.

Also, with a chip on your shoulder about where Groundspeak spends its energy for expanding or improving the game and gameplay, this isn't going to be an easy concept to swallow--the idea that we might want to look at this from their side of the fence.

 

Anyway, postitive and/or constructive discussions seem to get the attention of the Lackeys more than overly negaive or disgruntled ones.

 

Ah - so because I have an opinion which differs from yours I'm not only stubborn - I have a chip on my shoulder

 

And you're trying to educate me on positive / constructive discussion? Really? It's important to remember of course that dialogue is a two way process which doesn't depend on parties agreeing on everything.

 

Where Groundspeak spends its energy for improving those parts of the game and gameplay they can influence is up to them - and the very best of luck to them.

 

Asking me to keep quiet about where I would like to see them spend their energy though is almost as rich as expecting me to re-read the entire thread just because you think I should.

 

You might be happier to know I have the thread on my watch list so I've read pretty much every post - so I think I'm fairly up to speed with most of what's gone on. Hopefully that's OK with you but if it's not - that's cool too

yawn...

 

Bravo! I take it all back - I was on the fence there for a while but with that powerful and compelling riposte you've utterly convinced me. Positive? Constructive? Give me strength!