Premium Member Only Caches

[+Mineral2]

As I build my collection of caches hidden, I always wonder why you'd check the Premium Member option when it might reduce visitors to the cache. I'd like to know your thoughts on the subject. What circumstances or reasons would you have for marking your cache for premium members only?

 

I can only come up with two reasons:

1. You place it close to your own personal property and only want well-meaning geocachers approaching that close.

2. You place it in a high muggle area.

 

Of course, both of these reasons make an assumption that people who pay for a premium membership are more responsible than the free members, and I don't necessarily think that's the case.

[+JesandTodd]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

[Pup Patrol]

As I build my collection of caches hidden, I always wonder why you'd check the Premium Member option when it might reduce visitors to the cache. I'd like to know your thoughts on the subject. What circumstances or reasons would you have for marking your cache for premium members only?

 

I can only come up with two reasons:

1. You place it close to your own personal property and only want well-meaning geocachers approaching that close.

2. You place it in a high muggle area.

 

Of course, both of these reasons make an assumption that people who pay for a premium membership are more responsible than the free members, and I don't necessarily think that's the case.

 

Numerous reasons for making caches PMO have been posted often here in the forum.

 

If you do an advanced search, you should be able to find those threads.

 

 

B.

[+BlackRose67]

The only PMO cache I have hidden was in a location where another cacher got into a urination festival with some local well seasoned cachers and a reviewer.

 

The cache eventually was archived. After a period of time, no one else had opted to hide a cache there, so I did.

I chose to make it a PMO cache to reduce the chances of the other cacher potentially doing anything to it.

[+Panther&Pine]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I find puzzles and multi's just as effective, if not more effective in cutting down traffic.

[+Manville Possum]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

Same here, and puzzles and multis are less popular. It was PMO or archive for me, noobies trashing GZ really got me bent out of shape. Good thing some were NVM's and I could not contact them with some "geocaching advice".

[+Isonzo Karst]

Rather randomly, I sometimes check it. Then I sometimes uncheck it later. I don't find it makes much difference to visits on higher terrain caches.

No particular reason, generally.

 

I did it in the last year to remove a cache of mine from the Beginner caches list and Intro App

I resisted this for a while, but the cache was becoming a nightmare to own, novices who literally cannot close an ammo can, and the relentless disappearance of travel bugs. Since making it PMO it's required no maintenance and seems to have not been a TB grave either. This is the maintenance expectation I have of an ammo can in the woods.

 

(In the first days of the cache, I may look at the audit log, but I know this is not really providing much info. My most recent was FTF'd by someone who never appeared on the audit log - no surprise really. Got notification, headed out, found and logged from phone.)

[+BCandMsKitty]

I make mine PMO because of Groundspeak's policies regarding novices with smartphones not even having to register, or read any of the guidelines.

[+narcissa]

Never. My husband and I limit the number of people visiting our caches by making them more difficult. Some people can't afford a premium membership, or don't cache often enough to bother with one. I see no reason to penalize good cachers for that, and no reason to give more trust to someone just because they paid.

[+narcissa]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I find puzzles and multi's just as effective, if not more effective in cutting down traffic.

 

Same here. We will never hide a traditional ever again.

[+Chief301]

One of my newer caches has a rather unique container (it's a Cold War era Civil Defense radiation meter) that fits with the theme of the cache, so it would be difficult to replace. Making it PMO (and a Multi besides) tends to limit the traffic to the "serious" cachers who know how to properly respect someone else's cache.

 

None of my others are PMO....I want people to find my caches. I have tried to put a little thought into my caches so I want new cachers to realize there's more to geocaching than nanos stuck on the back of street signs.

[Mr.Yuck]

A common reason you'll hear (but probably not in this thread) is "to reward people for supporting the website". Personally, I think they have more than enough money, and I don't need to be rewarded, but you do hear that one thrown around.

 

I've done it twice, once I later removed. In both cases I wanted to keep traffic down on caches that involved residential street parking for caches off in the woods.

 

I too will consider it if the novice situation, in my personal opinion, gets out of control.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

Not long ago I made most, if not all, of my caches PMO.......in the long run your caches will fare better and you will get FAR fewer NA and NM logs by inexperienced cachers who simply can't find the cache.

I really do wish there was a Platinum membership that could cull the herd even more.

[+ChileHead]

Every once in a while we have a problem with a cache thief. Based on logs they appear to be a young kid that finds out about the website and caches go missing in a small area that the kid is likely to walk or ride their bike to. When this starts to happen I make my caches PMO, usually the ammo cans, so I don't have to deal with it. It's not fool proof, but it does help with the casual I'm-a-stupid-kid thief.

[+The_Incredibles_]

I started when I had a number of caches go missing after basic members with few finds logged them. 1 of them I had put alot of work into and extra effort on the swag. I emailed the last finder (a basic member with few finds). It didn't sound like they realized the importance of rehiding the cache properly. Now most of my caches are PMO. I simply don't have the time to run around replacing caches because of people who are barely in the game.

[+Panther&Pine]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I find puzzles and multi's just as effective, if not more effective in cutting down traffic.

 

Same here. We will never hide a traditional ever again.

I just adopted my recent ones over so I have no active hides but I think I'll be hiding a few traditionals in the future, but more of the other kinds. Mainly because I want to use some neat ideas I picked up living in the PNW to the SW and all that.

[etarace]

Making it PMO (and a Multi besides) tends to limit the traffic to the "serious" cachers who know how to properly respect someone else's cache.

 

Premium Membership doesn't necessarily mean "serious" cacher. Just making it a Multi would seriously decrease visits. I like what narcissa said about it:

 

Never. My husband and I limit the number of people visiting our caches by making them more difficult. Some people can't afford a premium membership, or don't cache often enough to bother with one. I see no reason to penalize good cachers for that, and no reason to give more trust to someone just because they paid.

 

In my area there are some Premium Members who are the culprits in getting "help" on puzzles, trashing nature, and trading down (and then write a cut-and-paste log about it). In my lowly Basic opinion, making it PMO doesn't solve any of these problems, it only gives fewer people an opportunity to have a lovely hike and an interesting find.

In my area PMO just sort of reeks of snobbery, and the hide/container/swag/hike are of no better quality than other caches. I did go to a few that were designed to be PMO, were turned Basic for a short time in order to allow "members of the group who are not PM to log" and then switched back. I wasn't a member of the group, but I snagged the opportunity to go find them while they were basic. So I have seen some, my opinion isn't simply sour grapes.

In other areas there is a huge infestation of unregistered phone users to contend with. I can understand wanting to avoid that.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Here's another example of why my caches are PMO:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC37Q4A_killdeer-birds-of-victoria

 

Cache was fine until the basic member found it on Jan 11th, 2014. They currently have 20 finds. After they found it, cachers reported the cache was wet. I went to check on it and it was all muddy inside and out and soaked. It looks to me like they went out for a bit of fun with their kids, opened it in the rain, made a big mess and tossed it back in the bushes. Who has time to maintain caches for people like that? Of course, you can't blame basic members for everything, but I have found that people like this are inexperienced and also don't really have a stake in the game. To them, it's just something fun they did a few times and aren't personally invested in. I didn't send them a nasty email, but I should have.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Premium Membership doesn't necessarily mean "serious" cacher. Just making it a Multi would seriously decrease visits. I like what narcissa said about it:

 

 

I guess it depends on the area. Here, all serious cachers are PMs. The ones that aren't are typically spouses or family members who cache with PMs. Some didn't realize basic members could log my caches so I had to explain to them how to do it. I have no problem with these people logging my caches through the backdoor method.

Edited June 29, 2014 by The_Incredibles_

[+J Grouchy]

1. Limit cachers who can find it in a sensitive area.

2. On puzzles, I like to see who is looking at (and trying to solve) my puzzles via the audit log. It's helped me zero in on who the folks most interested in puzzles are and I've been able to pretty accurately predict who will go after them and how tricky I need to make it to "slow them down".

[etarace]

Premium Membership doesn't necessarily mean "serious" cacher. Just making it a Multi would seriously decrease visits. I like what narcissa said about it:

 

 

I guess it depends on the area. Here, all serious cachers are PMs. The ones that aren't are typically spouses or family members who cache with PMs. Some didn't realize basic members could log my caches so I had to explain to them how to do it. I have no problem with these people logging my caches through the backdoor method.

I agree. You've definitely had first hand bad experiences with the inexperienced.

[+narcissa]

In my area PMO just sort of reeks of snobbery, and the hide/container/swag/hike are of no better quality than other caches.

 

Same thing around here. Other than challenge caches, the vast majority of PMO hides are by someone I consider to be a relative n00b who just tossed out a bunch of uninteresting caches and set them all as PMO. I'm not the only one who comments about it in their logs.

[+JohnCNA]

I make mine PMO because of Groundspeak's policies regarding novices with smartphones not even having to register, or read any of the guidelines.

^ this!

And as others have mentioned, I don't want to go back and close each container properly, replace natural cammo and check for bad swag after every newbie who can't be bothered to try and learn anything about the sport.

[+Team Dredd]

I am not sure of other areas but theft of caches and vandalism seems a bit to popular around here. We have a few cache containers that we went through a lot of effort creating or making, one or two even cost some $$ to make. One cache we changed to premium because it was a commemorative cache and continuously got taken. The other few are because of effort or $$ put into the specific containers. We figure people who spend money for a premium account will be more respectful of the cache itself and the area it is in to be honest. Anyone can go find a non-premium. Thant being said, out of 26 hides I think only three are premium.

[+ArtieD]

I made all my non-Earthcache hides PMO to ward off the smart phone, trial app users who'll find a few caches, almost never hide them back as they should and post NM or NA logs when they can't find it. At least in my neck of the woods, the PMO caches tend to ward off those types of people, making things better for both cache owners and other hiders. If they want to pony up the money for a premium membership, great! That at least generally shows they are in it for the longer haul than the ones who post the "That’s one more find for me! Thanks so much for hiding this geocache" log.

 

The main reason why I hide PMO caches? They are my caches and I want to. No reason needed.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Arthur & Trillian

[TahoeJoe]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once? If you’re worried about the forest being trashed perhaps you shouldn't place a cache there. The tone of some of these replies rubs me the wrong way. Some individuals and families can’t afford to purchase premium memberships and in my opinion that doesn't make them any less of a person than someone who chooses to purchase a premium membership. I had a premium membership years ago in the early days of geocaching to support the site but didn't think of myself as being part of an elite group. I never made my caches only available to premium members as I wanted everyone to enjoy my caches and if they got trashed or went missing, I just chalked it up to being part of the game. I have nothing against premium member hides, but I do have an issues with some of the reasons and justifications.

Edited July 2, 2014 by TahoeJoe

[+ArtieD]

The tone of some of these replies rubs me the wrong way. Some individuals and families can’t afford to purchase premium memberships and in my opinion that doesn't make them any less of a person than someone who chooses to purchase a premium membership.

 

That's horsehockey. If you can afford a GPSr or a smartphone with a large data plan and the gas to go caching, you can afford $30 a year. That "I can't afford it" excuse gets old.

 

I have nothing against premium member hides, but I do have an issues with some of the reasons and justifications for the hides.

 

Like what? Cite examples.

[TahoeJoe]

The tone of some of these replies rubs me the wrong way. Some individuals and families can’t afford to purchase premium memberships and in my opinion that doesn't make them any less of a person than someone who chooses to purchase a premium membership.

 

That's horsehockey. If you can afford a GPSr or a smartphone with a large data plan and the gas to go caching, you can afford $30 a year. That "I can't afford it" excuse gets old.

 

I have nothing against premium member hides, but I do have an issues with some of the reasons and justifications for the hides.

 

Like what? Cite examples.

 

Who says they own a smartphone or GPS? Isn't it possible they geocache with someone else? I teach in a low social economical area and we have families living with other families in motels. Years ago I wrote a grant and purchased GPS’s for use in the classrooms. One of the activities I taught for outdoor education was navigating with a compass and GPS. I hid a geocache for the students for our winter outdoor education and introduced students to geocaching. Very few of these students I doubt could afford a GPS but for the day they were able to participate. We also offered a summer program where students went out geocaching. It was a free program with no cost to the students. 30 dollars might not seem like much to you, but for parents supporting a family on minimum wage, that’s 3 ½ hours of work.

[+ArtieD]

30 dollars might not seem like much to you, but for parents supporting a family on minimum wage, that’s 3 ½ hours of work.

 

That is a worst-case scenario. My point stands. Either way, for a year's worth of enjoyment, it's not a lot...eight cents a day.

[TahoeJoe]

30 dollars might not seem like much to you, but for parents supporting a family on minimum wage, that’s 3 ½ hours of work.

 

That is a worst-case scenario. My point stands. Either way, for a year's worth of enjoyment, it's not a lot...eight cents a day.

Unfortunately where I teach the worst case scenario is the norm, 65 percent of the population live below the poverty level.

[+hukilaulau]

I make mine PMO because of Groundspeak's policies regarding novices with smartphones not even having to register, or read any of the guidelines.

Exactly. And as I stated in the recently revived duplicate thread, this makes PMO caches slightly safer for travelbugs and geocoins.

[+Mineral2]

30 dollars might not seem like much to you, but for parents supporting a family on minimum wage, that’s 3 ½ hours of work.

 

That is a worst-case scenario. My point stands. Either way, for a year's worth of enjoyment, it's not a lot...eight cents a day.

 

It's not a lot, but when membership renewal comes around, sometimes I could use that $30 for other things. Not everyone is dedicated enough to pay $30 year after year, and they shouldn't really be punished for that.

 

Remember, geocaching isn't everyone's passion. People pay monthly or yearly dues to other sites (I, for example, also pay for Flickr) and they start to add up. You choose the ones that are most important to you. I'll pay for a premium membership because it's dadgum convenient to have paperless caching on my GPS, and I'll continue to pay until Groundspeak makes some of its features free, or alternative geocaching communities become more popular.

 

Of course, that assumes the price doesn't ever go up.

[+ArtieD]

30 dollars might not seem like much to you, but for parents supporting a family on minimum wage, that’s 3 ½ hours of work.

 

That is a worst-case scenario. My point stands. Either way, for a year's worth of enjoyment, it's not a lot...eight cents a day.

 

It's not a lot, but when membership renewal comes around, sometimes I could use that $30 for other things. Not everyone is dedicated enough to pay $30 year after year, and they shouldn't really be punished for that.

 

No one is being punished. They can still cache like nobody's business.

[+T.D.M.22]

 

Who says they own a smartphone or GPS? Isn't it possible they geocache with someone else? I teach in a low social economical area and we have families living with other families in motels. Years ago I wrote a grant and purchased GPS’s for use in the classrooms. One of the activities I taught for outdoor education was navigating with a compass and GPS. I hid a geocache for the students for our winter outdoor education and introduced students to geocaching. Very few of these students I doubt could afford a GPS but for the day they were able to participate. We also offered a summer program where students went out geocaching. It was a free program with no cost to the students. 30 dollars might not seem like much to you, but for parents supporting a family on minimum wage, that’s 3 ½ hours of work.

 

Yes, it's 3.5 hours of work for a years membership. Not $30 a week, or month, a WHOLE YEAR!! You can't get a years worth of anything for that price. Can't even get a monthly buss pass for $30. Working an extra 4 hours per year too much for having lots of fun, or spending time with your kids? Maybe you should re-think your priorities. I spend more time than that in the bathroom.

 

Then the thing I saw is that you seemed to be using the fact that not everyone can afford a PM as a basis not to hide PMO caches. My parents couldn't afford $600 for hockey sticks, $500 for skates, and another couple hundred to a thousand for fees and pads and stuff for me to play hockey when I was little. But by your logic, that means those that can shouldn't because it's unfair to those who can't.

 

And if they don't have a GPS, or smartphone, then why would they even think of getting a premium membership until they get one? That's kinda like buying new tires and a seat covers to improve your car, when you don't have one, or plan on getting one.

 

And you said people may cache with others. Say you cache with me, I have a GPS and a PM, you have neither. You can still find the PMO caches with me, and even log them. You do have a GPS? Come over to my place and I could download a weekly PQ to it.

 

BOOM!! Your reasoning that PMO caches shouldn't be placed because it's unfair to those that "can't" have a PM is full of more hole then my underwear I've always wanted to say that. But my point still stands-it is in no way unfair to those that don't have a PM.

Edited July 2, 2014 by T.D.M.22

[Blue Square Thing]

And if they don't have a GPS, or smartphone, then why would they even think of getting a premium membership until they get one? That's kinda like buying new tires and a seat covers to improve your car, when you don't have one, or plan on getting one.

I've found plenty of caches without using any kind of GPS device. Including PMO caches. Why is having a GPS device a requirement for premium membership?

 

I did once think about buying premium membership (solely to make finding PMO caches easier when I happened to be visiting an area with lots in) but decided that there were many more reasons to not do so. I'm happy with that decision, but I can also recognise that there are people who make the same decision for other reasons - and, yeah, £30 or €30 (or whatever it is if you don't lie about where you're from these days) is an entry barrier for some people, kids in particular.

 

And most kids have a phone that' smart enough to cope with geocsching - using free apps which don't require a data plan, simply the ability to connect occasionally to a wireless connection.

[+Ev1l 81tch]

I set a few of mine to premium after a "newbie" posted a found it log on one of my tricky traditionals and after checking it I saw that no one had signed the log. I decided to put it as a premium cache and then my other trickier caches, because I want to reward those who actually participate in the game fully and not the pi$$ takers!

[+JesandTodd]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once? If you’re worried about the forest being trashed perhaps you shouldn't place a cache there. The tone of some of these replies rubs me the wrong way. Some individuals and families can’t afford to purchase premium memberships and in my opinion that doesn't make them any less of a person than someone who chooses to purchase a premium membership. I had a premium membership years ago in the early days of geocaching to support the site but didn't think of myself as being part of an elite group. I never made my caches only available to premium members as I wanted everyone to enjoy my caches and if they got trashed or went missing, I just chalked it up to being part of the game. I have nothing against premium member hides, but I do have an issues with some of the reasons and justifications.

 

Don't hide caches in the forest??? That's,,,,,,that's seriously like the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever heard about geocaching.

Ever.

 

Nope. I'll keep all of my hides PMO. Decrease the newbies. Don't like it? Wah. Then search out the other 2+ million caches.

[team tisri]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once?

 

Sure but this is the classic example of logic not working the other way around. We were all newbies once but not all of us were irresponsible newbies. Back in the day anyone who was sufficiently interested to go out with an expensive GPS was already more invested in the game than the person who downloaded a free app on their smartphone and didn't even bother to read guidelines.

 

Of course if people download the free app and assume there's some Cache Fairy who puts all these little boxes out there, maybe they assume the idea is to find the cache and take it away with you so you can rehide it somewhere else (which many people I've talked to about geocaching have assumed, and have been surprised when I've said the idea is to sign the log and put it back where you found it), and have no skin in the game anyway so don't really care about the future of the sandwich box under the tree as long as they get to take part in the "geocaching experience" for a few days before giving up and going on to something else, it's hardly surprising that caches disappear or get trashed.

 

From the perspective of the newbie cacher who hasn't read guidelines (it's far from clear whether they are even shown in the intro app) who sees the chance to take part in a game for free and then among the soggy film pots behind signs they find a cool container in the woods stuffed with cool stuff, should we be surprised that they think this is a bonus element of the game, a prize for being the one to find it, that they get to take the box home and keep the stuff in it? It's obvious to more experienced cachers because we know how to play the game, but a newbie won't necessarily know that. They won't automatically know that they're supposed to trade rather than just take some stuff if they like the look of it - after all the contents of the box are the prize, right?

 

If you’re worried about the forest being trashed perhaps you shouldn't place a cache there. The tone of some of these replies rubs me the wrong way. Some individuals and families can’t afford to purchase premium memberships and in my opinion that doesn't make them any less of a person than someone who chooses to purchase a premium membership. I had a premium membership years ago in the early days of geocaching to support the site but didn't think of myself as being part of an elite group. I never made my caches only available to premium members as I wanted everyone to enjoy my caches and if they got trashed or went missing, I just chalked it up to being part of the game. I have nothing against premium member hides, but I do have an issues with some of the reasons and justifications.

 

If people can afford to travel any distance to find geocaches they can probably find the $30/year if they're sufficiently interested. $30/year works out about 60 cents per week. By my reckoning with fuel at about $3.50/gal (I know my figures are a bit dated but ballpark is good enough here) and a car that does 30mpg you're looking at about 12 cents per mile in fuel alone. So if you drive five miles to and from the cache site, you spent as much as the week's premium membership would have cost already. (For those of us who don't enjoy prices as staggeringly cheap as $3.50/gal the figures shift even further - I reckon in USD terms my car costs me about 35c/mile to drive, in fuel costs). If people can afford a data plan on their smartphone they can probably afford $2.50/month for a premium membership, if they are interested in having one.

 

Even then your argument still flips logic around. A basic member isn't a "lesser person", they aren't necessarily any less interested in geocaching, but the person who has only a transient interest to try the game without putting in any effort will probably be a basic member. So we're back to the fact that not all basic members trash areas or steal caches, but the people who trash the area and steal the caches because they don't know how the game is meant to be played are likely to be newbies.

 

I figure the best way to be as inclusive as possible is to make the cache a puzzle with a few stages to it. You can make it open to basic members and most people won't bother with it because it requires more work than the "go to coordinates, read clue, find cache" that results in a find for the vast majority of traditionals rated 2/2 or lower.

[+L0ne.R]

1404380562[/url]' post='5398758']

1404323296[/url]' post='5398539']

1404011735[/url]' post='5397372']

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once?

 

Sure but this is the classic example of logic not working the other way around. We were all newbies once but not all of us were irresponsible newbies. Back in the day anyone who was sufficiently interested to go out with an expensive GPS was already more invested in the game than the person who downloaded a free app on their smartphone and didn't even bother to read guidelines.

 

Of course if people download the free app and assume there's some Cache Fairy who puts all these little boxes out there, maybe they assume the idea is to find the cache and take it away with you so you can rehide it somewhere else (which many people I've talked to about geocaching have assumed, and have been surprised when I've said the idea is to sign the log and put it back where you found it), and have no skin in the game anyway so don't really care about the future of the sandwich box under the tree as long as they get to take part in the "geocaching experience" for a few days before giving up and going on to something else, it's hardly surprising that caches disappear or get trashed.

 

From the perspective of the newbie cacher who hasn't read guidelines (it's far from clear whether they are even shown in the intro app) who sees the chance to take part in a game for free and then among the soggy film pots behind signs they find a cool container in the woods stuffed with cool stuff, should we be surprised that they think this is a bonus element of the game, a prize for being the one to find it, that they get to take the box home and keep the stuff in it? It's obvious to more experienced cachers because we know how to play the game, but a newbie won't necessarily know that. They won't automatically know that they're supposed to trade rather than just take some stuff if they like the look of it - after all the contents of the box are the prize, right?

 

If you're worried about the forest being trashed perhaps you shouldn't place a cache there. The tone of some of these replies rubs me the wrong way. Some individuals and families can't afford to purchase premium memberships and in my opinion that doesn't make them any less of a person than someone who chooses to purchase a premium membership. I had a premium membership years ago in the early days of geocaching to support the site but didn't think of myself as being part of an elite group. I never made my caches only available to premium members as I wanted everyone to enjoy my caches and if they got trashed or went missing, I just chalked it up to being part of the game. I have nothing against premium member hides, but I do have an issues with some of the reasons and justifications.

 

If people can afford to travel any distance to find geocaches they can probably find the $30/year if they're sufficiently interested. $30/year works out about 60 cents per week. By my reckoning with fuel at about $3.50/gal (I know my figures are a bit dated but ballpark is good enough here) and a car that does 30mpg you're looking at about 12 cents per mile in fuel alone. So if you drive five miles to and from the cache site, you spent as much as the week's premium membership would have cost already. (For those of us who don't enjoy prices as staggeringly cheap as $3.50/gal the figures shift even further - I reckon in USD terms my car costs me about 35c/mile to drive, in fuel costs). If people can afford a data plan on their smartphone they can probably afford $2.50/month for a premium membership, if they are interested in having one.

 

Even then your argument still flips logic around. A basic member isn't a "lesser person", they aren't necessarily any less interested in geocaching, but the person who has only a transient interest to try the game without putting in any effort will probably be a basic member. So we're back to the fact that not all basic members trash areas or steal caches, but the people who trash the area and steal the caches because they don't know how the game is meant to be played are likely to be newbies.

 

I figure the best way to be as inclusive as possible is to make the cache a puzzle with a few stages to it. You can make it open to basic members and most people won't bother with it because it requires more work than the "go to coordinates, read clue, find cache" that results in a find for the vast majority of traditionals rated 2/2 or lower.

 

Well said.

It's been my experience that a PMO cache gets a reduction in visits but still gets 2 to 3 times more visits than a puzzle or multi cache. If a CO's intent is to have more experienced players visit, but not decrease visits drastically, PMOs work well.

[Mr.Yuck]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once?

 

Sure but this is the classic example of logic not working the other way around. We were all newbies once but not all of us were irresponsible newbies. Back in the day anyone who was sufficiently interested to go out with an expensive GPS was already more invested in the game than the person who downloaded a free app on their smartphone and didn't even bother to read guidelines.

 

Of course if people download the free app and assume there's some Cache Fairy who puts all these little boxes out there, maybe they assume the idea is to find the cache and take it away with you so you can rehide it somewhere else (which many people I've talked to about geocaching have assumed, and have been surprised when I've said the idea is to sign the log and put it back where you found it), and have no skin in the game anyway so don't really care about the future of the sandwich box under the tree as long as they get to take part in the "geocaching experience" for a few days before giving up and going on to something else, it's hardly surprising that caches disappear or get trashed.

 

 

He's 100% correct Joe. The newbies of today are not the newbies of 2002. Groundspeak most likely has the numbers, but they'll never release them. I wouldn't doubt 95% of people you see who joined within the last couple years with 50 finds or less downloaded a smartphone app. And many of them never visit the website. It's become nearly universal they're going to drop a lame 2 word or less find log on your cache. And many of them do think there is a cache fairy who puts those gamepieces out there, not a regular player like themselves. And yes, a 12 year old or so newbie found my 2004 mini Jasmer challenge for his very first find (he obviously didn't qualify), took it with him, and hid it as his own cache 4 miles away. Me, I studied this website for almost a month before joining the day of my first find (still don't know why I did that). It's a whole new world out there, trust us.

[+L0ne.R]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once?

 

Sure but this is the classic example of logic not working the other way around. We were all newbies once but not all of us were irresponsible newbies. Back in the day anyone who was sufficiently interested to go out with an expensive GPS was already more invested in the game than the person who downloaded a free app on their smartphone and didn't even bother to read guidelines.

 

Of course if people download the free app and assume there's some Cache Fairy who puts all these little boxes out there, maybe they assume the idea is to find the cache and take it away with you so you can rehide it somewhere else (which many people I've talked to about geocaching have assumed, and have been surprised when I've said the idea is to sign the log and put it back where you found it), and have no skin in the game anyway so don't really care about the future of the sandwich box under the tree as long as they get to take part in the "geocaching experience" for a few days before giving up and going on to something else, it's hardly surprising that caches disappear or get trashed.

 

 

He's 100% correct Joe. The newbies of today are not the newbies of 2002. Groundspeak most likely has the numbers, but they'll never release them. I wouldn't doubt 95% of people you see who joined within the last couple years with 50 finds or less downloaded a smartphone app. And many of them never visit the website. It's become nearly universal they're going to drop a lame 2 word or less find log on your cache. And many of them do think there is a cache fairy who puts those gamepieces out there, not a regular player like themselves. And yes, a 12 year old or so newbie found my 2004 mini Jasmer challenge for his very first find (he obviously didn't qualify), took it with him, and hid it as his own cache 4 miles away. Me, I studied this website for almost a month before joining the day of my first find (still don't know why I did that). It's a whole new world out there, trust us.

 

That's the other thing I'm seeing in my area - kids playing. Some even say they are 12 years old, or they are in grade school or the go to the public school across from the park. I'm guessing most of them are not caching with their parents. In the olden golden days the only way to play was with a GPS unit. GPS receivers were/are expensive so it was the adults who were playing and they might include family members but the adult was in charge. Now most kids under 18 have a cell phone and most of those are smartphones. Download the free app and off you go - no parental supervision required.

[TahoeJoe]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once?

 

Sure but this is the classic example of logic not working the other way around. We were all newbies once but not all of us were irresponsible newbies. Back in the day anyone who was sufficiently interested to go out with an expensive GPS was already more invested in the game than the person who downloaded a free app on their smartphone and didn't even bother to read guidelines.

 

Of course if people download the free app and assume there's some Cache Fairy who puts all these little boxes out there, maybe they assume the idea is to find the cache and take it away with you so you can rehide it somewhere else (which many people I've talked to about geocaching have assumed, and have been surprised when I've said the idea is to sign the log and put it back where you found it), and have no skin in the game anyway so don't really care about the future of the sandwich box under the tree as long as they get to take part in the "geocaching experience" for a few days before giving up and going on to something else, it's hardly surprising that caches disappear or get trashed.

 

 

He's 100% correct Joe. The newbies of today are not the newbies of 2002. Groundspeak most likely has the numbers, but they'll never release them. I wouldn't doubt 95% of people you see who joined within the last couple years with 50 finds or less downloaded a smartphone app. And many of them never visit the website. It's become nearly universal they're going to drop a lame 2 word or less find log on your cache. And many of them do think there is a cache fairy who puts those gamepieces out there, not a regular player like themselves. And yes, a 12 year old or so newbie found my 2004 mini Jasmer challenge for his very first find (he obviously didn't qualify), took it with him, and hid it as his own cache 4 miles away. Me, I studied this website for almost a month before joining the day of my first find (still don't know why I did that). It's a whole new world out there, trust us.

 

That's the other thing I'm seeing in my area - kids playing. Some even say they are 12 years old, or they are in grade school or the go to the public school across from the park. I'm guessing most of them are not caching with their parents. In the olden golden days the only way to play was with a GPS unit. GPS receivers were/are expensive so it was the adults who were playing and they might include family members but the adult was in charge. Now most kids under 18 have a cell phone and most of those are smartphones. Download the free app and off you go - no parental supervision required.

You have valid points and it appears that I’m still looking at things as they were 10 years ago. It’s true that for the most part 10 years ago geocaching was limited to those who could afford an expensive GPS device. My first GPS was the Magellan 315 which cost around $150.00 back in 1999. From what I have read it looks like anyone with a smart phone can download the free geocaching app and geocache without even having an account (not good). I have caches out there that have been around for 12 years and have not had the issues that other have been frustrated with. More than likely I haven’t had the problems because most of my caches are remote or are not accessible without an adult to get there. I have one cache that has only been logged 22 times in 12 years. The game has become much too commercialize for my taste but my two young sons really enjoy the game. It’s been difficult to find ammo can caches anymore (at least in my area) with 99 percent of the caches being micros. Perhaps PMO caches are a way to bring geocaching back to its roots.

[cezanne]

Perhaps PMO caches are a way to bring geocaching back to its roots.

 

Certainly not.

 

As has been mentioned before remote or more challenging caches (longer hike involved, or puzzle, or multiple stages) that are not PM-only get less visits than PM-only caches that attract the

numbers crowd. The logs for caches of the the first type are on average better and the visitors handle the caches with more care.

 

The style in which many power cachers cache requires PM-ship to be efficient. I prefer the visit of a 13 year old who manages to find one of my caches (none of them is easy) to the visit of those power cachers who visit 50 caches per day and cannot remember the individual caches they visited at the end of the day. I do not think that the 13 old beginner would leave a replacement cache for a cache that is missing while this is the standard procedure of almost all power cachers in my area (almost all of them are PMs).

 

 

Cezanne

[+Chief301]

I figure the best way to be as inclusive as possible is to make the cache a puzzle with a few stages to it. You can make it open to basic members and most people won't bother with it because it requires more work than the "go to coordinates, read clue, find cache" that results in a find for the vast majority of traditionals rated 2/2 or lower.

 

Agreed. I have a couple of newer caches that are a field puzzle which is not PMO and a multi that is. Technically the field puzzle is just as accessible to non-PM's as the other Traditionals but the same small group of experienced cachers, the ones who I recognize as active, long-term local cachers, are responsible for the handful of finds on both those caches. There are a few Traditionals in the same area that get found periodically by newbie intro app users, but none of them seem interested in the puzzle.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Chief301

[4wheelin_fool]

Perhaps PMO caches are a way to bring geocaching back to its roots.

 

Perhaps the free intro app was intended to encourage more people to make their hides PMO, and to buy more.

 

There's plenty of logs around here about geocaches that go missing, are found empty, and out in the open. The last log is all too frequently a generic "That's one more find for me! Thank you for hiding this geocache!" from someone with no email address. If they don't have an email, they are not really geocachers but muggles with apps.

[+cerberus1]

Perhaps PMO caches are a way to bring geocaching back to its roots.

 

Perhaps the free intro app was intended to encourage more people to make their hides PMO, and to buy more.

 

There's plenty of logs around here about geocaches that go missing, are found empty, and out in the open. The last log is all too frequently a generic "That's one more find for me! Thank you for hiding this geocache!" from someone with no email address. If they don't have an email, they are not really geocachers but muggles with apps.

I can believe that.

Odd thing is, many in that intro app crowd are buying the pm instead of the full app (confusion in wording I guess).

Curious if they'd now (as a pm) have access to pmo through that intro app.

If so, now you have the same no-nada folks with access to hides folks at one time deemed "safe" from 'em.

[+Mineral2]

The free intro app was intended to encourage people to buy the full app. Not all free caches are marked "beginner," and actually, some PMO caches are marked as beginner caches.

[+TriciaG]

There are a few Traditionals in the same area that get found periodically by newbie intro app users, but none of them seem interested in the puzzle.

Intro app users cannot see puzzle caches on the app. They can only see traditionals.

 

Curious if they'd now (as a pm) have access to pmo through that intro app.

I've seen elsewhere that yes, intro app PM's have access to traditional PMO caches.

[+Chief301]

There are a few Traditionals in the same area that get found periodically by newbie intro app users, but none of them seem interested in the puzzle.

Intro app users cannot see puzzle caches on the app. They can only see traditionals.

 

Curious if they'd now (as a pm) have access to pmo through that intro app.

I've seen elsewhere that yes, intro app PM's have access to traditional PMO caches.

 

Ah, yes, I hadn't thought of that. You're right. I was thinking like a Geocacher again, assuming that they might actually be able to see the non-PMO puzzles and multis on the Geocaching map....I'm forgetting that most of these folks never visit the website. 😳

[team tisri]

I want to limit the traffic to my cache. This is a *good* thing. I don't want newbies trashing the forest looking around for my cache.

I guess only newbies are irresponsible, wasn't everybody a newbie once?

 

Sure but this is the classic example of logic not working the other way around. We were all newbies once but not all of us were irresponsible newbies. Back in the day anyone who was sufficiently interested to go out with an expensive GPS was already more invested in the game than the person who downloaded a free app on their smartphone and didn't even bother to read guidelines.

 

Of course if people download the free app and assume there's some Cache Fairy who puts all these little boxes out there, maybe they assume the idea is to find the cache and take it away with you so you can rehide it somewhere else (which many people I've talked to about geocaching have assumed, and have been surprised when I've said the idea is to sign the log and put it back where you found it), and have no skin in the game anyway so don't really care about the future of the sandwich box under the tree as long as they get to take part in the "geocaching experience" for a few days before giving up and going on to something else, it's hardly surprising that caches disappear or get trashed.

 

 

He's 100% correct Joe. The newbies of today are not the newbies of 2002. Groundspeak most likely has the numbers, but they'll never release them. I wouldn't doubt 95% of people you see who joined within the last couple years with 50 finds or less downloaded a smartphone app. And many of them never visit the website. It's become nearly universal they're going to drop a lame 2 word or less find log on your cache. And many of them do think there is a cache fairy who puts those gamepieces out there, not a regular player like themselves. And yes, a 12 year old or so newbie found my 2004 mini Jasmer challenge for his very first find (he obviously didn't qualify), took it with him, and hid it as his own cache 4 miles away. Me, I studied this website for almost a month before joining the day of my first find (still don't know why I did that). It's a whole new world out there, trust us.

 

That's the other thing I'm seeing in my area - kids playing. Some even say they are 12 years old, or they are in grade school or the go to the public school across from the park. I'm guessing most of them are not caching with their parents. In the olden golden days the only way to play was with a GPS unit. GPS receivers were/are expensive so it was the adults who were playing and they might include family members but the adult was in charge. Now most kids under 18 have a cell phone and most of those are smartphones. Download the free app and off you go - no parental supervision required.

You have valid points and it appears that I’m still looking at things as they were 10 years ago. It’s true that for the most part 10 years ago geocaching was limited to those who could afford an expensive GPS device. My first GPS was the Magellan 315 which cost around $150.00 back in 1999. From what I have read it looks like anyone with a smart phone can download the free geocaching app and geocache without even having an account (not good). I have caches out there that have been around for 12 years and have not had the issues that other have been frustrated with. More than likely I haven’t had the problems because most of my caches are remote or are not accessible without an adult to get there. I have one cache that has only been logged 22 times in 12 years. The game has become much too commercialize for my taste but my two young sons really enjoy the game. It’s been difficult to find ammo can caches anymore (at least in my area) with 99 percent of the caches being micros. Perhaps PMO caches are a way to bring geocaching back to its roots.

 

I think the best way to take geocaching back to its roots (short of starting your own site) would be to hide caches that required effort. If I were to hide a cache (I was going to hide a series, but frankly am struggling to maintain interest any more) I'd make it a puzzle and probably use an intermediate stage so solving the coordinates still wouldn't tell you where the cache was actually hidden. If you can base the intermediate stage on something natural that's long-lasting, or a signpost that's unlikely to move any time soon, so much the better.

 

From my perspective it's clear that Groundspeak has no interest in seeking quality - it's clearly about quantity and rapid turnover is just a side effect of having lots of people coming into the game. It's easy to see that from a commercial perspective it's better to have someone find a few caches, think "me, me, me" and hide a couple, sign up for a $30 premium membership and $10 phone app only to then lose interest and place no further demands on the server, than it is to have someone retain a premium membership for years and download pocket queries daily to upload to an old-fashioned GPS. So, having concluded people like me (who use old-fashioned GPS units) aren't the target market and haven't been for a while I've gradually lost interest in what the game has become. If I thought premium caches offered a particular benefit over regular caches I might consider renewing my premium membership but given the choice between paying for access to some caches that might be better but might not, or just not bothering at all, my response would be to just not bother at all.

 

As things stand I've found three caches so far this year and haven't uploaded any caches to my GPS since I removed them to unclutter the map at the beginning of April. In some ways I'd really like to see something that would convince me it's worth handing over another $30 for another year's membership but I'm just not seeing it.

Edited July 4, 2014 by team tisri