Vacation Cache

November 3, 2014

Ok, So I just want some opinions here. Granted I may only have 32 finds and 7 hids at the moment, I know my stuff pretty well, not to be arrogant, just throwing it out there, and I am very involved with my local cachers. thatsbesides my point though... I usually. make two annual trips to richmond hill GA and cartersville GA, and yes i visit both every time. I am going down in december, staying 2 1/2 weeks. so I thought It would be fun to place a series of 2 or 3 at the most caches in georgia,...

7.3k · November 3, 2014

Ok, So I just want some opinions here. Granted I may only have 32 finds and 7 hids at the moment, I know my stuff pretty well, not to be arrogant, just throwing it out there, and I am very involved with my local cachers. thatsbesides my point though... I usually. make two annual trips to richmond hill GA and cartersville GA, and yes i visit both every time. I am going down in december, staying 2 1/2 weeks. so I thought It would be fun to place a series of 2 or 3 at the most caches in georgia,...

Opinions here don't matter.

It's the Reviewer who is going to be the one to tell you yay or nay.

Consider this from the Guidelines:

Owner is responsible for visits to the physical location.

You are responsible for occasional visits to your cache to ensure it is in proper working order, especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.), or posts a Needs Maintenance log. Temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to search for it until you have addressed the problem. You are permitted a reasonable amount of time – generally up to 4 weeks – in which to check on your cache. If a cache is not being maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an unreasonable length of time, we may archive the listing.

The region in which a cacher is considered able to maintain caches responsibly will vary from person to person. A cacher who has previously logged caches within a wide range of their home may be considered able to maintain a geocache 200 miles (322 km) away. However, someone whose geocaching activities have primarily been within 25 miles (40 km) of home may not be able to maintain a geocache this far from home. This factor is determined at the discretion of the cache reviewer or Groundspeak.

Because of the effort required to maintain a geocache, please place physical caches in your usual caching area and not while traveling. Caches placed during travel will likely not be published unless you are able to provide an acceptable maintenance plan. This plan must allow for a quick response to reported problems, and might include the username of a local cacher who will handle maintenance issues in your absence. Alternatively you might train a local person to maintain the cache. Document your maintenance plan in a Note to Reviewer on your cache listing. This should include contact information of the maintainer. The note will auto-delete on publication.

B.

November 3, 2014

Ok... I should have mentioned. Yes I live in Alaska, but I go to georgia twice per year, and spend about 2 months cumulatively. I have a geofriend in the area who is willing to help, as well as 15+ family members who have already volunteered to check up on it once a week, If I can pull this off. I have now got said reviewer in approval with this, but he now wants an X number of finds IN GA before I hide! This seems out of line to me.

2.7k · November 3, 2014

Ok... I should have mentioned. Yes I live in Alaska, but I go to georgia twice per year, and spend about 2 months cumulatively. I have a geofriend in the area who is willing to help, as well as 15+ family members who have already volunteered to check up on it once a week, If I can pull this off. I have now got said reviewer in approval with this, but he now wants an X number of finds IN GA before I hide! This seems out of line to me.

You should put this to the reviewer. As there will be another cacher willing to maintain your cache it should stand you in good stead. I have seen others approved under these circumstances. But, it is the reviewer that has the say. Good luck.

November 3, 2014

Thats just what I was thinking. Ive got maintenance " crews " for lack of better term, WHY should I need X time, and X caches found, but hes made it clear hes not publishing it until I comply...

1.4k · November 3, 2014

Seems kind of like a made up rule. Not that I can disagree with it but I don't think it would say that in any guidelines. I also wouldn't have your family or friends check on it every week. They would probably tire of that. Just send them out if there is a problem. We have out a cache where we camp and I said on the cache page that we only go there once or twice a year. I think I also said...and it is true that if there was a problem we could take a fishing trip out there to fix it up. It got published but it is not in a different state. Hope you good luck.

November 3, 2014

Yea I was originally going to do it " on demand " but no no no... Quote " I've gone numb to family maintenance " And explained how it needed to be watched closer as he said he didnt think I would have a container that would last... i thin k a bison tube in a covered hollow log will last a year at least, but no no no to this as well. he thinks it will only last a year tops before the bison tube itself weathers away. I dont think he realizes I lived in the area for years before I moved to Ak with the majority of my family. I havent pulled this card yet... Im really getting irritated with it though, because collectively wasted 4 hours responding to these ridiculous emails

3.8k · November 3, 2014

Ya I agree with the reviewer. For one thing, if someone else is looking after the cache, it's not really yours now is it?

And how is it unfair you should have found caches somewhere before you hide one? It's not like it's an hour or 2 drive away, or a trip you make once a month. If he saw you caching there regularly it might be different. You have to go through (or over) another country to get to your cache. It's 5000 miles. It's also less than that from Canada to the UK. I'd be very surprised if I was allowed to own a cache on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. And frankly 6 months is too long between maintenance visits(see my first opinion) And what's the fact you lived there before you moved to Alaska got to do with anything? I live in Canada, that doesn't mean I'm automatically more qualified to snowboard or play hockey.

Then there is the fact that vacation caches are mentioned in the guidelines. Maybe this is another time, when I'm taking things the wrong way, but I don't think so. Perhaps if the CO lived closer, had more caching experience (years not less than a month) or even if the cacher made more visits, or had a history of caching at that location. And the issue with maintenance is not just wear and tear. What if a cacher breaks something? It gets muggled? What if it has to be moved?

And finally as others have said- what we think, agreeing or disagreeing with you, it really has no effect on what the people who's jobs are to review the caches think.

Just to ask; why is it important to place a cache there? Why can't you place one in Alaska?

Edited November 3, 2014 by T.D.M.22

6.1k · November 3, 2014

You could have your geofriends that live in the area adopt it before it is put in the queue, that way it would likely get published. If it is nothing but a bison tube, you could also hide 2 others some 60 feet away. That way if it goes missing, you could do some instant maintenance from Alaska by just changing the coords. However the problem with bison tubes is that the rubber O-rings rot away, sometimes within a year, but usually in wet conditions or direct sunlight. You may want to leave a pill bottle nearby with spares.

15.3k · November 3, 2014

As others have mentioned, nothing said here in the forums matters. It's up to the volunteer reviewer who covers your vacation territory, or to Groundspeak if you appeal the volunteer reviewer's decision. But based on what you've written, here are a few of my thoughts:

It there's a need "to check up on it once a week", then something's wrong. My first hide was like that. I learned a lot from trying to maintain that hide, but eventually I had to archive it. And I wouldn't have learned those lessons if I hadn't been the one on site trying to deal with issues multiple times a month.

There's more to hiding a geocache than understanding Bison tubes and camouflage. You may be local issues related to local geocaching policies, permits, and other permission issues. It is not unreasonable for the reviewer to think that someone with no local finds will be completely unaware of such issues.

Why spend your travel time hiding caches, instead of searching for them? Seriously. Why not get to know the local geocaching culture by finding a few (or a few dozen) caches there first? Why start off by hiding caches there?

Why must you own the cache listings? Assuming that you're going to hide caches instead of searching for them, and assuming that you really are working with local geofriends, then why can't these geofriends own the listings? I have a number of friends who have worked together to hide caches. The one who owns any given cache is the one who lives closest to it. The other collaborator(s) receive acknowledgement in the description, but the owner is the local one, the one who is going to be dealing with unscheduled maintenance issues.

But again, nothing said here in the forums matters. It's up to the volunteer reviewer and/or Groundspeak.

10.2k · November 3, 2014

Ok, So I just want some opinions here. Granted I may only have 32 finds and 7 hids at the moment, I know my stuff pretty well, not to be arrogant, just throwing it out there, and I am very involved with my local cachers. thatsbesides my point though... I usually. make two annual trips to richmond hill GA and cartersville GA, and yes i visit both every time. I am going down in december, staying 2 1/2 weeks. so I thought It would be fun to place a series of 2 or 3 at the most caches in georgia,...

Actually, and don't take this wrong, I think you're hiding way too much with too little experience, and I see you've actually hidden 9 with 32 finds, but archived two of them for bad coordinates? I can't even tell for sure that's why you archived them. And, in the same vein of being (in my opinion) a little overzealous of a new hider, I personally cannot understand you wanting to hide caches 3,000 miles away. I, and I would suspect most other cachers, never had any desire to hide caches thousanda of miles from home, frequent visitor or not.

Having geofriends or family members looking after your cache always used to be fine for getting it published. The old "Aunt Edna rule". Like you could actually have an Aunt Edna who wasn't a Geocacher being he local caretaker of your cache. At first it sounded like the reviewer wasn't even going to go for that, but apparently will now?

The apparent "X number of finds in Georgia before you hide a cache" thing seems rather bizarre and made up, I have to admit.

7.3k · November 3, 2014

The apparent "X number of finds in Georgia before you hide a cache" thing seems rather bizarre and made up, I have to admit.

The Guidelines section that I quoted in post #2 covers that, doesn't it?

B.

9.2k · November 3, 2014

The apparent "X number of finds in Georgia before you hide a cache" thing seems rather bizarre and made up, I have to admit.

The Guidelines section that I quoted in post #2 covers that, doesn't it?

B.

If you can't spend a short time finding a few caches, why should you spend any time doing maintenance... :unsure:

10.2k · November 3, 2014

The apparent "X number of finds in Georgia before you hide a cache" thing seems rather bizarre and made up, I have to admit.

The Guidelines section that I quoted in post #2 covers that, doesn't it?

B.

I can see the entire 2nd paragraph of the guideline section being interpreted that way, I suppose. Does this mean I can place caches in Westfield, N.J., and Scranton, Pa., two places I used to go to for business trips, and found plenty of caches? And hey, I can get Cerberus1 to maintain the Pa. ones.

It sounds like AKACRider contacted the reviewer ahead of time to look into this, and that is commendable. I don't know, if it were me, I'd just like to find a bunch of caches down there. Then again, I never moved thousands of miles from the town I grew up in.

13.7k · November 3, 2014

I can see the entire 2nd paragraph of the guideline section being interpreted that way, I suppose. Does this mean I can place caches in Westfield, N.J., and Scranton, Pa., two places I used to go to for business trips, and found plenty of caches? And hey, I can get Cerberus1 to maintain the Pa. ones.

30cal or larger and 3+ in terrain, we'll talk about it.

13.7k · November 3, 2014

Ok... I should have mentioned. Yes I live in Alaska, but I go to georgia twice per year, and spend about 2 months cumulatively. I have a geofriend in the area who is willing to help, as well as 15+ family members who have already volunteered to check up on it once a week, If I can pull this off. I have now got said reviewer in approval with this, but he now wants an X number of finds IN GA before I hide! This seems out of line to me.

As Pup Patrol supplied, you can see the Reviewer's request isn't out of line at all.

You say you're going to Georgia in December.

Find quite a few caches while there. Rain or shine.

Hopefully with some of the people you intend to maintain hides for you, so they know what they're really getting themselves into.

Many think it's a great idea to "help out", until they realize it often means when it's inconveniant for them at the time and gets old quick.

- Ask any parent who had their kid promise they'd take care of that pet.

November 3, 2014

Ok, Yes I agree, I do need more finds, but I have just as much fun hiding, and the I archived had FATAL coord errors. Appearing to be in peoples houses ect. Etrex on a cloudy day. And my point to the matter is the reviewer is just not being open to ideas. And If I do talk him into it. I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away. And they a r e not drive n dump hides, im talking 2.5 and up, not by my standards, by a local with 7000 finds under his belt.

7.4k · November 3, 2014

Ok, Yes I agree, I do need more finds, but I have just as much fun hiding, and the I archived had FATAL coord errors. Appearing to be in peoples houses ect. Etrex on a cloudy day. And my point to the matter is the reviewer is just not being open to ideas. And If I do talk him into it. I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away. And they a r e not drive n dump hides, im talking 2.5 and up, not by my standards, by a local with 7000 finds under his belt.

Just to be clear: you can't be bothered to take accurate coordinates, but you want the reviewer to let you publish geocaches that you can't possible maintain in places you don't live.

Right.

2.1k · November 3, 2014

Ok, Yes I agree, I do need more finds, but I have just as much fun hiding, and the I archived had FATAL coord errors. Appearing to be in peoples houses ect. Etrex on a cloudy day. And my point to the matter is the reviewer is just not being open to ideas. And If I do talk him into it. I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away. And they a r e not drive n dump hides, im talking 2.5 and up, not by my standards, by a local with 7000 finds under his belt.

Just to be clear: you can't be bothered to take accurate coordinates, but you want the reviewer to let you publish geocaches that you can't possible maintain in places you don't live.

Right.

In a place you apparently haven't done much/any caching in yet.

November 3, 2014

Ok, Yes I agree, I do need more finds, but I have just as much fun hiding, and the I archived had FATAL coord errors. Appearing to be in peoples houses ect. Etrex on a cloudy day. And my point to the matter is the reviewer is just not being open to ideas. And If I do talk him into it. I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away. And they a r e not drive n dump hides, im talking 2.5 and up, not by my standards, by a local with 7000 finds under his belt.

Firstly, you stated earlier that you "know your stuff", why wouldn't you have just updated the coordinates instead of archiving and re listing? Neither one looked to be more than 528 feet from the bad coordinates.

Your reviewer is open to ideas. That's why he/she gave you some ideas. The issue is that vacation caches are only permitted under certain circumstances. Often they are placed by new cachers who do everything they can to get around the review process, hide a container that won't hold up, and forget about it. Family members maintaining the cache often let it fall by the wayside as well and now we're left with litter at GZ because the cache eventually gets archived by the reviewer's hand....all while you're thousands of miles away. Do you see why this is problematic? Your reviewer is taking some very necessary steps to prevent this.

Also, I'm pretty sure fool was joking about hiding spares in the vicinity. Try pitching that idea to your reviewer, though. You never know.

Seems like you've caught the cache hiding bug. Give it some time for it to wear off. Find some more caches, hide some more and then in a year, let's see if you carefully maintained the caches that you currently own or if you even have a desire to place a cache 5000 miles from home anymore.

Or....you can always try to create an earthcache. That's the perfect type of listing for an area you only visit twice a year.

10.2k · November 3, 2014

Ok, Yes I agree, I do need more finds, but I have just as much fun hiding, and the I archived had FATAL coord errors. Appearing to be in peoples houses ect. Etrex on a cloudy day. And my point to the matter is the reviewer is just not being open to ideas. And If I do talk him into it. I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away. And they a r e not drive n dump hides, im talking 2.5 and up, not by my standards, by a local with 7000 finds under his belt.

Just to be clear: you can't be bothered to take accurate coordinates, but you want the reviewer to let you publish geocaches that you can't possible maintain in places you don't live.

Right.

That might be a little harsh. I'm sure he just blew the coords. It is not however, normal procedure to archive the cache yourself, and submit another listing with the same name.

This is an unusual situation, AKACRider. Vacation caches are generally frowned upon by the reviewers, and even the community in general. I suppose I can see your desire to place caches where you grew up though. Although a distinct minority, there are people out there with high hide to find ratio's, and without a lot of finds, out there. There's a (quick guess off the top of my head) 120 find, 65 hide guy the next town over from me. In his particular case, the hides aren't very good, and haven't gotten any better. Of course he does not interact with other Geocachers socially, and has never attended an event.

3.1k · November 3, 2014

Ok, Yes I agree, I do need more finds, but I have just as much fun hiding, and the I archived had FATAL coord errors. Appearing to be in peoples houses ect. Etrex on a cloudy day. And my point to the matter is the reviewer is just not being open to ideas. And If I do talk him into it. I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away. And they a r e not drive n dump hides, im talking 2.5 and up, not by my standards, by a local with 7000 finds under his belt.

Hello from the end of the road!

Even as comfortable with the game as you may feel, it appears clear to me that you need to understand a very important component of the game: The guidelines.

The guidelines are interpreted in different ways by different Volunteer Reviewers. I know this from living and caching in 3 states and over 8 Reviewers in 9+ years. So, your best bet is to work with the Reviewer on their terms. And, if you are truly this frustrated over it, you can appeal to Groundspeak directly by emailing using this link after reading the "Working with Reviewer" linked guidance.

It doesn't sound that unreasonable to ask for you to have some finds where you are trying to hide a cache. You need to understand that vacation caches are really not as allowable outside (lower 48 to you contiguous folks) as they are here in Alaska. Even then, Greatland Reviewer has taken a more direct approach when dealing with possible vacation caches when ruling against the guidelines; if memory and experience serve me well, vacation caches are published much less now here in Alaska as they were before Greatland Reviewer took on review for Alaska.

My advice is to just leave the cache placements in Georgia to those that live there. Vacation caches and caches in other states are very, very frustrating to owners and seekers of those caches for many reasons--I would know from my own experience leaving caches behind in states when I move away.

the bottom line really is that YOU are supposed to maintain YOUR caches. If you can't get out to deal with a missing cache, a full log book, or other maintenance issues, you rely on those who don't have a personal interest in that cache. You'd have to email them to ask for help, and there's no telling how long they'd take, or that they'd do it at all. If they do help, you have to count on them watching the cache listing or your direct emails to get them out to save your cache 4000 miles away. It just isn't a good plan, and that is why the Reviewer there in GA is pushing back.

It's always hard when you start out to take adversity in stride when playing this game. The guidelines seem like barriers, but they really are an important part of the game. The more you play, the more you will understand that not placing vacation caches hundreds or thousands of miles away from your home is a good idea.

Sorry to break it to you, but I don't think you should place those caches in Georgia. Think of it this way: if one of your caching contacts out there places it for you, you have more caches to find when you go there to visit. That sounds like a better idea than having to maintain caches thousands of miles away!

I have family in North Carolina that I see every year. I don't hide caches there because they hide them. I've got many contacts in the geocaching world there in NC, but I don't ask them to watch a cache for me--they place them for me to find when I come out to visit. It's waaaaay more fun that way.

November 3, 2014

Ok some people need to sit down.its a topic not a bat... And many of you are missing the point, the point is, if i am able to maintain it, and active in the caching community, I should be able to do it, and yes i belive caches should last 5 years at the least. And I stated elswhere not in this thread, if I cant maintain it ( i will but this is worst case ) or my family cant maintain it, or my geobuddy cant, ill adopt the darn thing locally.if i wanted to see people working up an early heart attack over something simple, I would have just turned on my tv. ? and for the coordinates, The coords would have updated put the ios map wouldnt have changed, therefore phone cachers would have been in danger of tresspasding, and yes, to the screen hiders who junped my bum about that, these things happen when you take coords on a rainy day!

Thanks for keeping your cool guys. I just want this thread to be welcoming to all people and oppinions, and not people lurking because we cant sit down.

November 3, 2014

I love the idea of hiding spares 50 of 60 ft away

I hope your reviewer sees this and never allows you to hide a cache.

Spares. Really?

November 3, 2014

Its not MY local reviewer, do o t wont kill me. ?

November 3, 2014

I love. How you people take itso hard, my idea of hiding ONE spare 40 ft from GZ so it can hold out for 5 months at the most for ME MYSELF AND I to return. Again sit down PLEASE. ☺

9.2k · November 3, 2014

I love. How you people take itso hard, my idea of hiding ONE spare 40 ft from GZ so it can hold out for 5 months at the most for ME MYSELF AND I to return. Again sit down PLEASE. ☺

So what happens if your coordinates are 'out' and everyone keeps finding the 'spare'? :laughing:

3.4k · November 3, 2014

Ok some people need to sit down.its a topic not a bat... And many of you are missing the point, the point is, if i am able to maintain it, and active in the caching community, I should be able to do it, and yes i belive caches should last 5 years at the least. And I stated elswhere not in this thread, if I cant maintain it ( i will but this is worst case ) or my family cant maintain it, or my geobuddy cant, ill adopt the darn thing locally.if i wanted to see people working up an early heart attack over something simple, I would have just turned on my tv. ? and for the coordinates, The coords would have updated put the ios map wouldnt have changed, therefore phone cachers would have been in danger of tresspasding, and yes, to the screen hiders who junped my bum about that, these things happen when you take coords on a rainy day!

Thanks for keeping your cool guys. I just want this thread to be welcoming to all people and oppinions, and not people lurking because we cant sit down.

So typical. Asks for opinions and then doesn't like the opinions that are generated. I don't see anything in any of the opinions expressed that deserves the "some people need to sit down.its a topic not a bat" comment, or the "people working up an early heart attack" comment. I also don't see any responders missing the point (except a couple totally OT remarks). I think that, the way I read the responses, most people are of the opinion that the rule against vacation caches is a good and valid one and that no exception should be granted in this case. That is my opinion also.

btw I have no idea what this means--"The coords would have updated put the ios map wouldnt have changed". I'm guessing the "put" should be "but", but what map wouldn't change? People change cache coordinates all the time and I've never heard of any subsequent problems with any maps. And yes, "these things happen when you take coords on a rainy day"; that's why it is strongly suggested that you take coordinate on more than one occasion. When you know that there are conditions that interfere with signal reception, you should know that it is not a good day to take your readings and be even more careful to get additional readings on another day. Even when I take coordinates with 2 GPS units side by side, I sometimes get wildly different readings.

3.1k · November 3, 2014

I love. How you people take itso hard, my idea of hiding ONE spare 40 ft from GZ so it can hold out for 5 months at the most for ME MYSELF AND I to return. Again sit down PLEASE. ☺

Hold on. This isn't personal.

Hiding a "spare" cache near the coordinates is a bad idea, and will only create confusion. There should be 1 cache at/near your coordinates. (Some hide "red herrings", but that's another topic altogether apart from what you're describing...you can search or start a new topic about red herring hides, but let's stick to your vacation cache placement, and your suggestion that you might hide an "extra" container...)

There are myriad of problems with having another container and logbook at your cache site, and it should be plainly clear what those problems could be. Really, the benefit you seek is far outweighed by the issues that it will make for those seeking your cache.

A vacation cache can work, yes. But that's not the point. It could be there for 5 years without incident, yes. But placing an extra cache to deal with the possibility that your cache could go missing is misguided. First of all, you're shirking your duties to maintain your cache and listing as outlined in the Knowledge Books and Guidelines.

Leaving an "extra" cache at/near GZ is not maintaining the cache. Leaving a handful of extra caches with your designated maintainer to place when the see that it has gone missing or needs maintenance is the better way to handle this.

Another issue is the supposition that your cache will go missing and you should need to place an "extra"/"spare" nearby. If you think your cache will go missing, and you will place an extra to deal with that apparent "eventuality" only serves to shoot your idea in the foot. You should place caches so that they will last, and should not be easily muggled. You should be saying to yourself, "I don't need an extra because my hide is sound, the container appropriate for the site, weather conditions, local laws, local guidelines, and the rate of finds for that area ('How big is my logbook?', e.g.)"

The more buttoned up the details are for your desired vacation cache, the better the chances are that it would get approved, and that you wouldn't have to maintain it more than the couple of times a year when you are there for a visit. However, the way you are talking about it, and the approach you are taking is giving many of us the opinion that your hope to place a vacation cache is misguided. Again, it isn't personal. Rather, it is the viewpoint of these folks--myself included--that this isn't a good idea.

I fear that you came to the forums with the hope that we'd take your side in thinking that the GA Reviewer you reference was out of line for telling you that you need to have finds in GA to be able to be considered for a vacation cache placement in their jurisdiction. I'm sorry to say that your case doesn't make us share that same disappointment in that Reviewer's decision.

Again, if you feel that you should be able to place that cache in Georgia, you can appeal the Reviewer's decision to Groundspeak using the links I provided above.

Also, as context, I'll say that you should really consider the possibility that this enthusiasm for the game, and your desire to hide a cache where you "vacation" are not going to overwhelm the guidelines or common practices of the game. It is a hard pill to swallow when you're relatively new and enthusiastic about the game--I'm guilty of this when I started out--but you shouldn't get too frustrated when the fact is that you may not ever get permission to hide a vacation cache.

3.3k · November 3, 2014

You could have your geofriends that live in the area adopt it before it is put in the queue, that way it would likely get published. If it is nothing but a bison tube, you could also hide 2 others some 60 feet away. That way if it goes missing, you could do some instant maintenance from Alaska by just changing the coords. However the problem with bison tubes is that the rubber O-rings rot away, sometimes within a year, but usually in wet conditions or direct sunlight. You may want to leave a pill bottle nearby with spares.

Dang, that's *good*! I'm going to remember that next time I want to place a vacation cache! That's a foolproof maintenance plan. Brilliant! :grin:

Hey! Who said "geotrash" under their breath?! <_<

7.5k · November 3, 2014

Folks, just for some perspective, I had a look a the profile gallery....it looks like AKACRider may be under 18 years of age (I'm guessing 15 years old). A young whippersnapper of a cacher.

Edited November 3, 2014 by L0ne.R

November 3, 2014

I WILL have to be very careful when getting the coords. And that was to the agressive responses there iS no need to be a hat when ask for an oppinion and, just so were clear, even though I would never love there again, the state still has a big significance and I. Think most of you see my reasoning.

3.3k · November 3, 2014

Folks, just for some perspective, I had a look a the profile gallery....it looks like AKACRider may be under 18 years of age (I'm guessing 15 years old). A young whippersnapper of a cacher.

And your point is?

2.2k · November 3, 2014

On first read, I was ready to dismiss you as an over-eager newbie and let it go at that. And then I looked at some of your hides in AK and realized you've actually put some work and thought into this. And you've avoided following the trend of pointless "powertrail" type caches, which seem to be everywhere now, even way up North. I'm guessing the reviewer in Georgia noticed this too, and that is the ONLY reason he/she did not just reject your cache submission immediately. Consider yourself fortunate that you have a way to get your cache approved and just do it! What's so bad about having to find a few caches? It's supposed to be fun! I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

One more comment: August 31st and it was too cold for the glue to set up?!? Dude, you must be nuts to live up there!

November 3, 2014

Folks, just for some perspective, I had a look a the profile gallery....it looks like AKACRider may be under 18 years of age (I'm guessing 15 years old). A young whippersnapper of a cacher.

Really??? Yes im 15, but really??? Its somthing I enjoy and im really glad none of my local caching people act like you. Ever think about how some people might not have the time or resources to fetch every single last cache in the state. Yes i travel out of state and its none of your business why, but I can tell you ive got the time for 15 minutes to drop and get good coords on a cache thay I brought, but again, I wont have the time money and resources, to grab X caches.

" whippersnapper" yes im young, but certainly not over confident, if I were I wouldnt be seeking YOUR IDEAS!

?

3.3k · November 3, 2014

On first read, I was ready to dismiss you as an over-eager newbie and let it go at that. And then I looked at some of your hides in AK and realized you've actually put some work and thought into this. And you've avoided following the trend of pointless "powertrail" type caches, which seem to be everywhere now, even way up North. I'm guessing the reviewer in Georgia noticed this too, and that is the ONLY reason he/she did not just reject your cache submission immediately. Consider yourself fortunate that you have a way to get your cache approved and just do it! What's so bad about having to find a few caches? It's supposed to be fun! I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

One more comment: August 31st and it was too cold for the glue to set up?!? Dude, you must be nuts to live up there!

Good research. Hence my dismissal of the "perspective" issue in Post 33. Chronological age and caching experience do not have a lock-step correlation to good cache hides. There may be reason for further questions and a *bit* of required hoop-jumping (like the requirement to get a few more finds), but they are not reason to rule out a prospective hider.

Edited November 3, 2014 by wmpastor

November 3, 2014

I love. How you people take itso hard, my idea of hiding ONE spare 40 ft from GZ so it can hold out for 5 months at the most for ME MYSELF AND I to return. Again sit down PLEASE. ☺

Hold on. This isn't personal.

Hiding a "spare" cache near the coordinates is a bad idea, and will only create confusion. There should be 1 cache at/near your coordinates. (Some hide "red herrings", but that's another topic altogether apart from what you're describing...you can search or start a new topic about red herring hides, but let's stick to your vacation cache placement, and your suggestion that you might hide an "extra" container...)

There are myriad of problems with having another container and logbook at your cache site, and it should be plainly clear what those problems could be. Really, the benefit you seek is far outweighed by the issues that it will make for those seeking your cache.

A vacation cache can work, yes. But that's not the point. It could be there for 5 years without incident, yes. But placing an extra cache to deal with the possibility that your cache could go missing is misguided. First of all, you're shirking your duties to maintain your cache and listing as outlined in the Knowledge Books and Guidelines.

Leaving an "extra" cache at/near GZ is not maintaining the cache. Leaving a handful of extra caches with your designated maintainer to place when the see that it has gone missing or needs maintenance is the better way to handle this.

Another issue is the supposition that your cache will go missing and you should need to place an "extra"/"spare" nearby. If you think your cache will go missing, and you will place an extra to deal with that apparent "eventuality" only serves to shoot your idea in the foot. You should place caches so that they will last, and should not be easily muggled. You should be saying to yourself, "I don't need an extra because my hide is sound, the container appropriate for the site, weather conditions, local laws, local guidelines, and the rate of finds for that area ('How big is my logbook?', e.g.)"

The more buttoned up the details are for your desired vacation cache, the better the chances are that it would get approved, and that you wouldn't have to maintain it more than the couple of times a year when you are there for a visit. However, the way you are talking about it, and the approach you are taking is giving many of us the opinion that your hope to place a vacation cache is misguided. Again, it isn't personal. Rather, it is the viewpoint of these folks--myself included--that this isn't a good idea.

I fear that you came to the forums with the hope that we'd take your side in thinking that the GA Reviewer you reference was out of line for telling you that you need to have finds in GA to be able to be considered for a vacation cache placement in their jurisdiction. I'm sorry to say that your case doesn't make us share that same disappointment in that Reviewer's decision.

Again, if you feel that you should be able to place that cache in Georgia, you can appeal the Reviewer's decision to Groundspeak using the links I provided above.

Also, as context, I'll say that you should really consider the possibility that this enthusiasm for the game, and your desire to hide a cache where you "vacation" are not going to overwhelm the guidelines or common practices of the game. It is a hard pill to swallow when you're relatively new and enthusiastic about the game--I'm guilty of this when I started out--but you shouldn't get too frustrated when the fact is that you may not ever get permission to hide a vacation cache.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for, yes Ive got them made, they are about a D2.5 or 3, the reviewer said I would need alternate maintainance, so i got the spare idea and ran with it, its a bison in a hollow pine stump, and in a hollow fallen brach, treated to last the weather, But my idea was hide a under a rock so to speak spare, hidden even more difficult, so not to be found if coords led closer, but there is still that possibility.

3.1k · November 3, 2014

I WILL have to be very careful when getting the coords. And that was to the agressive responses there iS no need to be a hat when ask for an oppinion and, just so were clear, even though I would never love there again, the state still has a big significance and I. Think most of you see my reasoning.

Hey, like I said, I have family in North Carolina, grew up in Minnesota, lived in Oregon and again back to Minnesota, and now in Alaska. All of those places have a big, big bunch of meaning to me. However, if I can't be there to maintain a cache I place, I don't place it.

If you have family who geocaches there, perhaps they can place an honorary cache for you (my geocacher parents did that in North Carolina for me). That could certainly be pretty meaningful!

I, and others here in this thread, know that your intentions are good. But the fact of the matter is that the guidelines and common practices for geocaching are likely going to work very hard against you for a vacation cache. It isn't personal! It's just how the game is played.

Get some more finds under your belt--especially in Georgia, and the situation for placing a cache in Georgia from Alaska changes drastically. Be patient!

Also, it would be one thing if you were a full-on snowbird and were in Alaska 5 months, and Georgia for 7. But the fact is your visits are relatively short, and that makes leaving time for maintaining a few caches even more difficult to guarantee.

The big draw is to give back to the game by placing caches--I understand that! But the fact is, the guidelines aren't in your favor for placing a cache outside of the area you live. So having caches in Alaska (where you live) makes sense. Caches in a place you used to live and visit on occasion, less so. As special as it might be, you're really up against a more detailed and stringent review of a cache submission outside of your home area.

Again, get your ducks in a row, be patient, and realize that there's a lot to this game yet for you to learn. This is one of those lessons (well, two...). One is that vacation caches are generally not allowed, but exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis by the Reviewer for that area. Second, the forums are a place where you'll get answers...but not always the one you hope for.

I'll bet you hoped that we'd agree the GA Reviewer was putting too strict of conditions on your assumed "simple" plan to hide a vacation cache. But the fact we all know here in the forums (we've collectively honed our understanding of the guidelines to a very fine point...well, mostly) that vacation caches are difficult to get published for all of the reasons you and we have presented.

7.3k · November 3, 2014

You said in one of your first posts that you had a geofriend in the area that was willing to help. Did you give the actual geocaching name of your friend to the reviewer, or just say that you had a "friend"?

7.5k · November 3, 2014

Folks, just for some perspective, I had a look a the profile gallery....it looks like AKACRider may be under 18 years of age (I'm guessing 15 years old). A young whippersnapper of a cacher.

Really??? Yes im 15, but really??? Its somthing I enjoy and im really glad none of my local caching people act like you. Ever think about how some people might not have the time or resources to fetch every single last cache in the state. Yes i travel out of state and its none of your business why, but I can tell you ive got the time for 15 minutes to drop and get good coords on a cache thay I brought, but again, I wont have the time money and resources, to grab X caches.

" whippersnapper" yes im young, but certainly not over confident, if I were I wouldnt be seeking YOUR IDEAS!

?

I'm just about old enough to be your Grandma (grandmothers have official permission to use words like whippersnapper ).

I think people will have a better perspective with regards to your post and discussion style if they understand you are a young cacher. Also, people will temper their responses based on your age, and will respond with the perspective that you are a 15 year old boy and not as they might if you they think you are an adult.

I assume you have read the Terms of Use and have parental consent. Have you discussed this with them and what has their response been? How well do they understand geocaching and do they geocache? Have they read the guidelines and terms of use? They will have to play an integral part with regard to your cache maintenance plans for caches 1000s of miles away.

3.1k · November 3, 2014

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for, yes Ive got them made, they are about a D2.5 or 3, the reviewer said I would need alternate maintainance, so i got the spare idea and ran with it, its a bison in a hollow pine stump, and in a hollow fallen brach, treated to last the weather, But my idea was hide a under a rock so to speak spare, hidden even more difficult, so not to be found if coords led closer, but there is still that possibility.

I'd recommend that you don't do this at all!

What you're describing are two entirely different caches. Based on what you're saying, you're hiding a backup cache with a completely different manner of hide and difficulty. That isn't a good idea in any case, let alone a vacation cache.

Don't leave a spare!

The "alternate maintenance" plan is for someone else who can monitor the cache to do so, and replace, maintain, and report to you so that you can handle the listing and the required Owner notes, Temporary Disable logs, and Owner Maintenance logs. That can be a person who is also a geocacher, or a competent family member. Bottom line, you need to have someone else on hand that can go out and fix the cache up if it goes missing, needs a new logbook, needs verification that it is still in place after a series of DNFs, etc.

You've got a set of great cachers there around Fairbanks/North Pole. Be sure to leverage your involvement with them to get more knowledge on the game. Also, keep involved with the local organization (GeocacheAlaska) to learn more. But one of the things you'll learn no matter who you talk to is that you will need to have a SOLID maintenance plan for a cache you can't go out and look at or fix up on a moment's notice.

The guidelines say "4 weeks" for a window to maintain your caches. If you can't do that, be sure to pick someone there who can take care of any maintenance issues at all in the fastest amount of time possible. 4 weeks might be the window, but others will really appreciate if your caches are all taken care of in much less than that!

10.2k · November 3, 2014

Ok some people need to sit down.its a topic not a bat... And many of you are missing the point, the point is, if i am able to maintain it, and active in the caching community, I should be able to do it, and yes i belive caches should last 5 years at the least. And I stated elswhere not in this thread, if I cant maintain it ( i will but this is worst case ) or my family cant maintain it, or my geobuddy cant, ill adopt the darn thing locally.if i wanted to see people working up an early heart attack over something simple, I would have just turned on my tv. ? and for the coordinates, The coords would have updated put the ios map wouldnt have changed, therefore phone cachers would have been in danger of tresspasding, and yes, to the screen hiders who junped my bum about that, these things happen when you take coords on a rainy day!

Not piling on, but the whole cloudy/rainy day thing affecting gps signals is a fallacy. An urban legend, if you will.

GPS review.net's 10 myths

November 3, 2014

I. Mean i knew it was hoing to be difficult, I was looking more for advice than agreement, im certainly not trying to bash on the reviewer.

6.1k · November 3, 2014

You could have your geofriends that live in the area adopt it before it is put in the queue, that way it would likely get published. If it is nothing but a bison tube, you could also hide 2 others some 60 feet away. That way if it goes missing, you could do some instant maintenance from Alaska by just changing the coords. However the problem with bison tubes is that the rubber O-rings rot away, sometimes within a year, but usually in wet conditions or direct sunlight. You may want to leave a pill bottle nearby with spares.

Dang, that's *good*! I'm going to remember that next time I want to place a vacation cache! That's a foolproof maintenance plan. Brilliant!

Hey! Who said "geotrash" under their breath?!

When it comes to micros, its an excellent idea and works well. There is also no reason for there to be any geotrash if he visits the area every year. There are currently thousands of geocaches awaiting maintenance from owners who live nearby them, but just aren't interested. Likely they will be archived and turned into geotrash.

Perhaps an alternate idea would be to provide a list of all of the high number cachers in the area, and create a frequency analysis chart of the likelyhood of one of them leaving a throwdown? That there is geotrash, veteran geotrash.

Edited November 3, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool

10.2k · November 3, 2014

Folks, just for some perspective, I had a look a the profile gallery....it looks like AKACRider may be under 18 years of age (I'm guessing 15 years old). A young whippersnapper of a cacher.

Really??? Yes im 15, but really??? Its somthing I enjoy and im really glad none of my local caching people act like you. Ever think about how some people might not have the time or resources to fetch every single last cache in the state. Yes i travel out of state and its none of your business why, but I can tell you ive got the time for 15 minutes to drop and get good coords on a cache thay I brought, but again, I wont have the time money and resources, to grab X caches.

" whippersnapper" yes im young, but certainly not over confident, if I were I wouldnt be seeking YOUR IDEAS!

?

I'm just about old enough to be your Grandma (grandmothers have official permission to use words like whippersnapper ).

I think people will have a better perspective with regards to your post and discussion style if they understand you are a young cacher. Also, people will temper their responses based on your age, and will respond with the perspective that you are a 15 year old boy and not as they might if you they think you are an adult.

I assume you have read the Terms of Use and have parental consent. Have you discussed this with them and what has their response been? How well do they understand geocaching and do they geocache? Have they read the guidelines and terms of use? They will have to play an integral part with regard to your cache maintenance plans for caches 1000s of miles away.

Although I have a 15 year old myself, I didn't father him until I was 36, so I'm old enough to be Grandpa Yuck. :laughing:

Although WmPastor doesn't seem to think this is a factor, I do. I think it's more likely than not the reviewer looked at that gallery, and saw this was a minor cache placer. Not a good track record there, from the Boy Scout Merit Badge caches we've seen in the U.S., to the 13 year old in my area who once hid a cache in a summer pile of grass clipings on the edge of a small park. If that offends anyone, so be it. But keep in mind, I have one. And he won't be hiding any caches 3,000 miles from home.

3.3k · November 3, 2014

ActuallY I *do* think age and experience are factors, just not deciding factors. Someone said his other caches are good. Plus the "vacation" spot has multiple family members nearby who say they'll help maintain the cache. (Let them put that in an email to the reviewer.) I say, give the kid a chance.

1.5k · November 3, 2014

The "alternate maintenance" plan is for someone else who can monitor the cache to do so, and replace, maintain, and report to you so that you can handle the listing and the required Owner notes, Temporary Disable logs, and Owner Maintenance logs. That can be a person who is also a geocacher, or a competent family member. Bottom line, you need to have someone else on hand that can go out and fix the cache up if it goes missing, needs a new logbook, needs verification that it is still in place after a series of DNFs, etc.

Neversummer sumarized the guideline nicely.

Ideally, the local maintainer is a cacher with a well-established reputation for maintaining his/her own caches. Said cacher can then put a watch on your cache(s), monitor the logs, and proactively react to issues as they arise, before you even have to ping him/her.

A problem with vacation caches is they don't "belong" to anyone local and so they are given lower priority by the local maintainer. I have direct personal experience with placing a cache in New York State in Florida, birthplace of William Seward who spearheaded the purchase of Alaska from Russia (Seward's Folly). I made a connection between Florida and Alaska, created a two-step multi beginning at Seward's monument downtown, and hid the final cache near Seward's crypt. The cache perked along for awhile, got muggled, my long-distance maintainer replaced it once, then stopped responding to e-mails even though he and his family were still actively caching. I found that even though my family and I visited the area once per year, having a local maintainer was insufficient to maintain a viable cache and ultimately archived the cache, swearing off ever placing another vacation cache. I even took a shot at international exchange caches. One cache died after a year or so after being muggled once and the other is still doing well seven years after placement, so I'm batting 0.500 there.

Different reviewers will ask for different local maintenance plans. What is required is subjective based on prior experience with local vacation caches and other local factors. Hot spot vacation areas get a higher proportion of vacation caches and the Reviewers for those areas may have more stringent requirements such as requiring the name and e-mail address of the local mainainer if the local maintainer is not a cacher with a valid account. The Reviewer may even take the step of sending the local maintainer an e-mail to confirm that the local maintainer agreed to maintain the cache. Many of the e-mail queries from the Reviewer go unanswered or even bounce (gee, do Cousin Daisy or Uncle Fred even exist?), and the associated caches never see the light of day. I personally was asked by a cacher who was leaving the state if I would maintain a "couple" of caches he left as parting gifts. We discussed which ones (I thought). Next thing I knew, my local Reviewer pinged me asking if I'd really agreed to take on maintenance duties for the new caches and his several dozen already published caches (uh, no).

So, it is understandable to me that Reviewers get jaded by cacher maintenance plans that include family members, surf shop pros, cabana boys, fill in the blank with a non-cacher type, who don't really understand the game. If the maintainer isn't already playing the game, s/he probably won't be gung-ho about fixing things the first, second, or more time the cache has an issue. Ultimately, the Reviewer is the one who gets to deal with the NA logs when the DNF strings begin, the lack of response from the local maintainer of record and the cache owner, or, even better, the remote Cache Owner who edits the cache page telling people to go ahead and log a find with an optional photo since the container is missing,

You can't control the actions of others, but you have full control of your own. That's why placing caches within your area of direct influence is oftentimes the best tact to take.

P.S. Rain and clouds do not affect GPS accuracy. The wavelength was specifically selected so moisture in the air doesn't mess things up. Otherwise, how could Alaska Air fly approaches to Alaskan airports rainy/snowy/cloudy/foggy weather.

P.P.S. Bad coordinates happen to most everyone sometime. They can be proof checked via GoogleEarth prior to publishing. Alternatively, they can be corrected with the "update coordinates" log type as opposed to archiving and republishing. Reviewers can help with coordinate changes greater than 528'.

P.P.S. Vacation caches aren't a new idea for Reviewers. They have been dealing with them almost since the game began and as a collective, the Reviewers have just about heard and seen it all and eventually had to archive the majority over time. Reviewers have good reason to push back on cache placements far from one's home based simply on lots of past experience. The Georgia Reviewer may be pushing back until you find more caches to ascertain you are in the game to stay. There are many cases of cachers flying out of the starting gate, hiding lots of caches, and then moving on to the next app they find in their phone. Establishing a good track record of cache placement and maintenance close to home lays a great foundation for being thought capable of managing far away caches.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Ladybug Kids

3.1k · November 4, 2014

You could have your geofriends that live in the area adopt it before it is put in the queue, that way it would likely get published. If it is nothing but a bison tube, you could also hide 2 others some 60 feet away. That way if it goes missing, you could do some instant maintenance from Alaska by just changing the coords. However the problem with bison tubes is that the rubber O-rings rot away, sometimes within a year, but usually in wet conditions or direct sunlight. You may want to leave a pill bottle nearby with spares.

Dang, that's *good*! I'm going to remember that next time I want to place a vacation cache! That's a foolproof maintenance plan. Brilliant!

Hey! Who said "geotrash" under their breath?!

When it comes to micros, its an excellent idea and works well. There is also no reason for there to be any geotrash if he visits the area every year. There are currently thousands of geocaches awaiting maintenance from owners who live nearby them, but just aren't interested. Likely they will be archived and turned into geotrash.

Perhaps an alternate idea would be to provide a list of all of the high number cachers in the area, and create a frequency analysis chart of the likelyhood of one of them leaving a throwdown? That there is geotrash, veteran geotrash.

It only works if:

You update the coordinates for the "backup" cache location
You update the listing to describe the "new" hide
You are sure the former cache is, in fact, missing
The D/T for that "new" hide doesn't change between the new and old

To me, this sounds like a lot of work that isn't necessary if you just have a solid maintenance plan, or just don't bother with "vacation" hides with a proxy owner.

10.2k · November 4, 2014

ActuallY I *do* think age and experience are factors, just not deciding factors. Someone said his other caches are good. Plus the "vacation" spot has multiple family members nearby who say they'll help maintain the cache. (Let them put that in an email to the reviewer.) I say, give the kid a chance.

Was I too big of a meany? :laughing: No one wants to discourage him, but Vacation caches have been long frowned upon for a reason, adult or no. A big factor here would be if the "local maintainers" are active Geocachers. And I mean long time, continuously active ones, not fly by night ones. The later of which is probably the majority of people who have ever logged a find on Geocaching.com.

3.1k · November 4, 2014

I. Mean i knew it was hoing to be difficult, I was looking more for advice than agreement, im certainly not trying to bash on the reviewer.

That's good to know. (I had to check) :anibad: '

The advice I'd give is above: Get to know the game a bit more. Stay in touch with GeocacheAlaska for more EduVents so you can learn even more. Ask for some advice from other cachers in your area. Find caches in Georgia. Be patient, and listen to the Reviewer in GA--they're willing to work with you if you work with them.

You might not get the caches approved this next trip, but you can at least go find a few in GA and feel out the possibilities for a "vacation cache".

But the last part of my advice was echoed by LadyBugKids: Vacation caches aren't as great as you would hope. They are a lot of work, and often don't get the maintenance they should. If you can't find an active geocacher in GA to maintain the cache for you (by proxy), then you shouldn't count on a non-geocaching family member or friend to do it for you. I'd just let it go and not place a cache outside of your home area in Alaska.

Vacation Cache

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