Am I the only person who thinks this is too Commercial?

[BeechwoodTed]

http://coord.info/GC657X4

This cache page feels like a giant add. You also need to walk around inside the store to get the coords.

 

From the giudelines:

Commercial geocaches are disallowed.

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

[+GeoTrekker26]

And what is the name of the business the cache is advertising?

[+T.D.M.22]

Commercial? Maybe. But I do like the execution of it, I would look for something like that.

[+dprovan]

Since I see nothing commercial about it and not even the slightest hint of advertising, I can only assume that your claim of it being commercial is based on some information you have that's outside the cache description. About the only thing that seems queer about it is the use of first person, but the description wouldn't change in any significant way if they'd made it less obvious they were tooting their own horns by writing it in third person.

 

Of course, I would have no idea whether following this multi would requiring going inside a business, interacting with employees, or purchasing a produce or service, so feel free to present information that makes that case.

[+justintim1999]

I don't think so. If you had to buy something than maybe. It's actually a pretty cool idea.

[BeechwoodTed]

Of course, I would have no idea whether following this multi would requiring going inside a business, interacting with employees, or purchasing a produce or service, so feel free to present information that makes that case.

 

The shopping list is the clues. You need to find what aisle each item in on for the number.

 

There's another cache like this at the far end of the state in a Market Basket.

[Pup Patrol]

http://coord.info/GC657X4

This cache page feels like a giant add. You also need to walk around inside the store to get the coords.

 

From the giudelines:

Commercial geocaches are disallowed.

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

 

Be advised, you will not have to buy anything to find the coordinates.

 

Additional Hints (Encrypt)

Again, there's no need to buy anything.

 

Scroll down to the first log on the page, which is a Reviewer Note. This is confusing to me, since the current cache description contains the business' name.

 

B.

[Pup Patrol]

And what is the name of the business the cache is advertising?

 

In the cache description:

 

Year 1993

This is the year that the store name changed from Portsmouth IGA to Clements Marketplace. After a tractor trailer pulled down the side of our street sign we had to replace the entire sign and decided to make a name change at the same time.

 

B.

[+narcissa]

It looks like they've been pretty careful to craft it so it doesn't run afoul of the guidelines. Based on the reviewer note, it appears that it's already been scrutinized for this and deemed to be okay.

 

Sometimes there are caches that follow the guidelines in practice but may not pass muster with your own sense of the spirit of geocaching. Don't look for those caches.

[+CanadianRockies]

It looks like they've been pretty careful to craft it so it doesn't run afoul of the guidelines.

Not really. At least not the guideline that indicates that geocachers shouldn't have to enter a commercial establishment.

 

Based on the reviewer note, it appears that it's already been scrutinized for this and deemed to be okay.

Not really. The only reviewer note I saw talked about a NA log, not about scrutinizing the cache description. Even though this cache passed the first review, we all know that reviewers occasionally make mistakes. In this case, it's not immediately obvious from the description that one needs to enter the market.

[+Touchstone]

Not really. The only reviewer note I saw talked about a NA log, not about scrutinizing the cache description.

 

I think that was an attempt at sardonic humor. At least it made me laugh

 

Even though this cache passed the first review, we all know that reviewers occasionally make mistakes.

 

Hmmmm....unlikely with this particular Reviewer.

 

Member Since: Tuesday, 27 February 2001

 

I'm guessing it got the "full monty" Review.

[+noncentric]

It looks like they've been pretty careful to craft it so it doesn't run afoul of the guidelines.

Not really. At least not the guideline that indicates that geocachers shouldn't have to enter a commercial establishment.

 

As I understand it, the guideline is that cachers shouldn't have to enter the business and interact or purchase. Just entering a business itself can be okay, especially if the business is one (ie, grocery store) where people can enter and walk around without interacting with employees. This is different from a business (ie, restaurant) where people can't just walk around without some employee interaction.

 

Based on the reviewer note, it appears that it's already been scrutinized for this and deemed to be okay.

Not really. The only reviewer note I saw talked about a NA log, not about scrutinizing the cache description. Even though this cache passed the first review, we all know that reviewers occasionally make mistakes. In this case, it's not immediately obvious from the description that one needs to enter the market.

 

There could've been extensive discussion and edits of the cache page before publication. What we see on the cache page is not all-inclusive of what the reviewers have reviewed. Considering that the cache was published a month after the hidden date might suggest that there were substantial back-and-forth conversations between the CO and Reviewer before publication.

[Pup Patrol]

The cache description is a straight copy/paste off the store's website. Made me think that the cache owner was an employee or owner of the store.

 

B.

[+Team Hugs]

Nothing unusual. We have (had?) a cache like this in our area.

[+CanadianRockies]

It looks like they've been pretty careful to craft it so it doesn't run afoul of the guidelines.

Not really. At least not the guideline that indicates that geocachers shouldn't have to enter a commercial establishment.

As I understand it, the guideline is that cachers shouldn't have to enter the business and interact or purchase. Just entering a business itself can be okay, especially if the business is one (ie, grocery store) where people can enter and walk around without interacting with employees. This is different from a business (ie, restaurant) where people can't just walk around without some employee interaction.

No, the guideline states that cachers shouldn't have to enter the business, interact, and/or purchase. That's a big difference. From Groundspeak's commercial guidelines:

 

We DON'T allow: ... It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

Our area had a cache that required one to enter a business but not interact or purchase. Once our reviewer learned about this, they archived it for violating the commercial guidelines.

[+redsox_mark]

To me it seems commercial, as the description mentions the name of the store (Clements Marketplace), as well as providing information which seems to promote the store ("This year brought a new Pizza Counter with slices and whole pizza straight from our brick oven.").

 

It is not, however clear from the description that one needs to enter the store. (Having read this thread and having a good idea how this works I know that you DO need to enter (or at least know the store's layout), but it is not made clear).

[+tallglenn]

http://coord.info/GC657X4

This cache page feels like a giant add. You also need to walk around inside the store to get the coords.

 

From the giudelines:

Commercial geocaches are disallowed.

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

 

Yes, it seems "Commercial". There was one like that down here (I never did it - was in my grungy geocaching clothes and shoes). The CO is not advertising, marketing or promoting any sales or employee interaction. However, the business does not compete with Groundspeak in any way. Likens to a library cache, or a flash mob in the center of a mall.

 

Edit to say: I would do it on a rainy day if I was dressed for public.

Edited November 17, 2015 by tallglenn

[+justintim1999]

http://coord.info/GC657X4

This cache page feels like a giant add. You also need to walk around inside the store to get the coords.

 

From the giudelines:

Commercial geocaches are disallowed.

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

 

Yes, it seems "Commercial". There was one like that down here (I never did it - was in my grungy geocaching clothes and shoes). The CO is not advertising, marketing or promoting any sales or employee interaction. However, the business does not compete with Groundspeak in any way. Likens to a library cache, or a flash mob in the center of a mall.

 

Edit to say: I would do it on a rainy day if I was dressed for public.

 

From the guidelines you posted above I'm not sure if this type of cache would be prohibited. The comma after the word business leads me to think that the talking to employees or purchasing something is the key. I can see where simply requiring someone to enter the business could be seen as advertising but entering a public place and gathering information doesn't seem like a big deal. If the information you needed was on the store's property but not inside the building would that make a difference?

 

I'm not sure but I like the idea.

[+Walts Hunting]

I'm going with no. It doesn't mention the store name, there is no fee to enter and you don't have to interact with other people.

[Pup Patrol]

I'm going with no. It doesn't mention the store name, there is no fee to enter and you don't have to interact with other people.

 

Post #8:

 

And what is the name of the business the cache is advertising?

 

In the cache description:

 

Year 1993

This is the year that the store name changed from Portsmouth IGA to Clements Marketplace. After a tractor trailer pulled down the side of our street sign we had to replace the entire sign and decided to make a name change at the same time.

 

B.

 

B.

[+Team Microdot]

Looks commercial to me.

 

You need to enter the store and peruse the aisles in order to complete the cache.

 

You're not forced to buy anything but if you forced me I'd probably say that the store owner was hoping that you would.

 

They even sow the seed of the idea of having a picnic nearby - and the items on the shopping list are in the store.

 

Yep. Commercial.

[+J Grouchy]

Looks commercial to me.

 

You need to enter the store and peruse the aisles in order to complete the cache.

 

You're not forced to buy anything but if you forced me I'd probably say that the store owner was hoping that you would.

 

They even sow the seed of the idea of having a picnic nearby - and the items on the shopping list are in the store.

 

Yep. Commercial.

 

Ditto...the very act of sending someone into a retail establishment carries with it the implication that a purchase is desired. It's not a free museum or visitor info center where people are free to walk in and out without the expectation of spending money.

[+thebruce0]

I've seen cache listings denied because the description merely even mentioned the business name - the only exception, barely, was if a business was mentioned in context of providing directions to a cache. So based on that particular judgment, I'd say this listing already breaks the commercial guideline as it's been applied in the past.

 

However, everyone knows that there's no precedent, and if one reviewer deems it ok where another reviewer wouldn't, it doesn't matter. What would is if some player were to take it to appeals and report/tattle on the listing, and appeals deeming that it breaks guidelines. Who's going to villify themselves?

Edited November 17, 2015 by thebruce0

[+redsox_mark]

What would is if some player were to take it to appeals and report/tattle on the listing, and appeals deeming that it breaks guidelines. Who's going to villify themselves?

 

If I was local, not me. My opinion is it seems to violate the guidelines, but that's just my opinion, as the OP asked the question. It doesn't bother me, so I wouldn't personally report it or worry about it, or be concerned if the local reviewer judges differently.

[+dprovan]

Ditto...the very act of sending someone into a retail establishment carries with it the implication that a purchase is desired. It's not a free museum or visitor info center where people are free to walk in and out without the expectation of spending money.

In this case, they wrote up the description in first person, so they're not a third person sending us: they're the owners inviting us in to find the cache. It would be rude of them to expect a purchase.

 

Not that that would really make a difference to me: anytime a cache sends me into a building, I act as if the owners have given permission to seek the cache without using entry for the expected purpose.

[+J Grouchy]

Ditto...the very act of sending someone into a retail establishment carries with it the implication that a purchase is desired. It's not a free museum or visitor info center where people are free to walk in and out without the expectation of spending money.

In this case, they wrote up the description in first person, so they're not a third person sending us: they're the owners inviting us in to find the cache. It would be rude of them to expect a purchase.

 

Personally, I find it somewhat rude to enter a retail establishment with no intention of even considering a purchase or curiosity for what they offer aside from a cache. Their entire reason for existing is to sell things, so you cannot tell me they don't have a hope that it drums up business for them.

 

Is this not why GS doesn't allow commercial caches? This business just got free advertising.

[+justintim1999]

Something else just occurred to me. It looks like there are two supermarkets in the area. I'm sure that a certain number of local cachers probably already shop there. If anyone is traveling any distance they're probably not going to be shopping after they're done caching. If your like me you usually stop at some local convince store to grab a snack or a drink. How convenient it would be to grab one while your caching. As currently constituted I still don't see the issue. And apparently neither did the reviewer. I may have to take a ride down and do this one, it sounds like fun.

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

It appears that there are two items in the Commercial guidelines in play on this one. The first is the clause that ALLOWS a business that this a community icon, and the second, going into a business and purchasing/interacting is NOT allowed. Based on the description, it looks like they are trying to pass the location off as a community icon (been in business 35 years, only market in town).

 

To answer the OP's question, I would rate this one as non-commercial, as the description does point out repeatedly that 'no purchase is required'. However, on my creepiness scale, I probably wouldn't do this cache. I am uncomfortable walking around inside a business trying to figure out a puzzle. If the description let me know that I would need to get the aisle numbers, I would be more comfortable, because I would be able to blend in more easily. I would also be more comfortable doing this alone. Can you image a group of 16 cachers descending on the store, with each person looking for one of the items on the list, then congregating at the last item on the list?

 

On the topic of commercial caches in general, it appears that the commercial guidelines are stretched all the time. My first example is caches that are part of GeoTours. Lots of them are at businesses. I have never had one that required entry to a building, but I did have one that required going into a park like area of a resort. The second example are caches that require a purchase. I have lost count of how many times I have had to purchase a parking permit or pass. Granted, all of these have been parks (local, state and national) and forests, none of them are commercial, for profit businesses. But a number of them do contain links to the agency in charge. My last example are normal, run of the mill caches that are located in businesses. One was an oldie (probably grandfathered), and it was a great, regular sized container in a coffee shop. Full sized log book, lots of travel bugs, no hassle in finding the container. On the other hand, another one was a crappy hide-a-key located on the bench closest to the red squirrel inside a well known outfitter.

 

Skye.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Ditto...the very act of sending someone into a retail establishment carries with it the implication that a purchase is desired. It's not a free museum or visitor info center where people are free to walk in and out without the expectation of spending money.

In this case, they wrote up the description in first person, so they're not a third person sending us: they're the owners inviting us in to find the cache. It would be rude of them to expect a purchase.

 

Personally, I find it somewhat rude to enter a retail establishment with no intention of even considering a purchase or curiosity for what they offer aside from a cache. Their entire reason for existing is to sell things, so you cannot tell me they don't have a hope that it drums up business for them.

 

Is this not why GS doesn't allow commercial caches? This business just got free advertising.

 

I've come across several cache listings for caches which are inside a business. In each case, the perception I came away with was that it was put inside the business to keep the cache from getting muggled (in one case, the cache was originally outside the business but got muggled a couple of times), and not that it was placed with the intention of bringing in customers. All of these caches are in countries which have very few caches. For one of them, it's the only physical cache within a 250 mile radius.

 

The guideline states "Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published."

 

In all these cases, I did not have the perception that they were placed inside a business for commercial purposes, and except for the one inside a large hotel, I would probably stick around a bit, enjoy a beer, and talk with the caretaker of the cache.

[+SwineFlew]

So its ok to run around in a store to get the numbers, but not ok to have a cache in a campground? <_< <_<

Edited November 17, 2015 by SwineFlew

[Pup Patrol]

In this case, they wrote up the description in first person, so they're not a third person sending us: they're the owners inviting us in to find the cache. It would be rude of them to expect a purchase.

 

As I said back in post #13, the cache description is a complete, unedited, copy/paste right off the store's website.

 

http://www.clementsmarket.com/about/

 

B.

[Pup Patrol]

So its ok to run around a store to get the numbers, but not ok to have a cache in a campground? <_< <_<

 

Maybe the store owner wants people to come in, and be tempted to purchase something while hunting for coordinates, even though a purchase is not required to find the cache.

 

Maybe the campground owner does not want strangers wandering around their property. Maybe strangers wandering around upsets the residents or ends up with landscaping being destroyed.

 

Comparing apples and lemons...

 

B.

[+dprovan]

Personally, I find it somewhat rude to enter a retail establishment with no intention of even considering a purchase or curiosity for what they offer aside from a cache. Their entire reason for existing is to sell things, so you cannot tell me they don't have a hope that it drums up business for them.

I'm sorry to disagree, but they know -- or should -- the GS prohibition against commercial caches, so they must accept people pursuing their cache only, no matter what their hopes might be. I understand if it makes you feel uncomfortable, but my expectation -- and my experience -- is that if I tell them I'm geocaching, they'll accept me as a geocacher instead treating me like a potential customer.

 

Is this not why GS doesn't allow commercial caches? This business just got free advertising.

I'm sure there are layers and layers of reasons, but I consider the prohibition important because the cache being an advertisement would be a conflict of interest with the cache as a cache. In this case, it looks to me like they did a good job of keeping the focus on the location, the puzzle, and the cache, avoiding detracting from those geocaching values by pushing for commercial gain.

[+justintim1999]

In this case, they wrote up the description in first person, so they're not a third person sending us: they're the owners inviting us in to find the cache. It would be rude of them to expect a purchase.

 

As I said back in post #13, the cache description is a complete, unedited, copy/paste right off the store's website.

 

http://www.clementsmarket.com/about/

 

B.

 

Not exactly. It was edited. Looks like the only information taken from the web site is historical. The name of the owners and the name of the business is not used.

[+justintim1999]

Ditto...the very act of sending someone into a retail establishment carries with it the implication that a purchase is desired. It's not a free museum or visitor info center where people are free to walk in and out without the expectation of spending money.

In this case, they wrote up the description in first person, so they're not a third person sending us: they're the owners inviting us in to find the cache. It would be rude of them to expect a purchase.

 

Not that that would really make a difference to me: anytime a cache sends me into a building, I act as if the owners have given permission to seek the cache without using entry for the expected purpose.

 

The owner of this particular cache is not the owner of the business. He's simply a person who regularly shops there.

Edited November 17, 2015 by justintim1999

[Pup Patrol]

How very interesting.

 

The cache page has been edited today.

 

What is there now is not what was there a few hours ago.

 

Last Updated: about 2 hours ago on 11/17/2015 09:57:00 (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada) (17:57 GMT)

 

Hmmmm.....

 

B.

[+The A-Team]

It appears that there are two items in the Commercial guidelines in play on this one. The first is the clause that ALLOWS a business that this a community icon, and the second, going into a business and purchasing/interacting is NOT allowed. Based on the description, it looks like they are trying to pass the location off as a community icon (been in business 35 years, only market in town).

I think you've misunderstood the "iconic" clause. It isn't about local community icons, it's about widely-known, generational icons (Help Center article):

• A product (or company) that is a part of a generation's upbringing, or deemed a "classic". Examples include: Mozart, 60s: The Rolling Stones, or Gone with the Wind
  

 

http://coord.info/GC657X4

This cache page feels like a giant add. You also need to walk around inside the store to get the coords.

 

From the giudelines:

Commercial geocaches are disallowed.

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

Yes, it seems "Commercial". There was one like that down here (I never did it - was in my grungy geocaching clothes and shoes). The CO is not advertising, marketing or promoting any sales or employee interaction. However, the business does not compete with Groundspeak in any way. Likens to a library cache, or a flash mob in the center of a mall.

 

Edit to say: I would do it on a rainy day if I was dressed for public.

From the guidelines you posted above I'm not sure if this type of cache would be prohibited. The comma after the word business leads me to think that the talking to employees or purchasing something is the key.

The clause is formed in such a way that it presents a list, with the "and/or" applying to all three items. If it was intended that the "and/or" be applied to only the last two items, then the line would need to be written like this:

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business and either interact with employees or purchase a product or service.

 

To me, this is a clear-cut violation of the commercial guidelines, given the post-publication information that has been provided to us. The reviewer can be forgiven for not knowing that the cache required going inside the business because it isn't obvious from the listing. We can't see what the archived NA log said, so it isn't clear if the entering-the-business issue was raised and the reviewer may still not be aware of this issue.

 

As pointed out by Pup Patrol, it does look like the page has recently been edited, and I don't see any mention of the business' name on it now as previously mentioned in this discussion. That part of the violation seems to have been rectified, but if it still requires that you go inside the business, it still violates the guideline.

[+K13]

The only person whose prerogative matters in this discussion is the Reviewer of the cache in question. They determined it fit the publishing guidelines without violating the 'commercial cache prohibition'.

[Pup Patrol]

The only person whose prerogative matters in this discussion is the Reviewer of the cache in question. They determined it fit the publishing guidelines without violating the 'commercial cache prohibition'.

 

How do we know that?

 

The cache description that is visible now isn't the same as it was a few hours ago.

 

There's no way for us to know what was presented to the Reviewer, and if it was edited post-publication.

 

There's a Reviewer Note on the cache:

 

Reviewer Note

11/14/2015

 

I have archived the needs archived log as the text of the log contains a commercial reference.

 

B.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Pup Patrol

[+thebruce0]

The only person whose prerogative matters in this discussion is the Reviewer of the cache in question.

That, right there (whether one likes it or not)

Nothing else matters, except an overruling judgment of the next level up.

 

ETA: "They determined it fit the publishing guidelines without violating the 'commercial cache prohibition'." - as PP just mentioned, the active reviewer might have changed since publication, or the CO may have edited the listing since publication. Nonetheless, point #1 still remains: The reviewer's prerogative is the only one that matters.

Edited November 17, 2015 by thebruce0

[+The A-Team]

The only person whose prerogative matters in this discussion is the Reviewer of the cache in question. They determined it fit the publishing guidelines without violating the 'commercial cache prohibition'.

...given the information they had available. However, if someone were to bring it to the reviewer's attention that the cache requires finders to go inside the business, I fully expect the cache would be retracted because it shouldn't have been published in the first place.

 

Maybe the guidelines need to be modified such that the requirement to describe a puzzle in a note to the reviewer would apply to multis too?

[Pup Patrol]

The only person whose prerogative matters in this discussion is the Reviewer of the cache in question.

That, right there (whether one likes it or not)

Nothing else matters, except an overruling judgment of the next level up.

 

ETA: "They determined it fit the publishing guidelines without violating the 'commercial cache prohibition'." - as PP just mentioned, the active reviewer might have changed since publication, or the CO may have edited the listing since publication. Nonetheless, point #1 still remains: The reviewer's prerogative is the only one that matters.

 

I never anything like "the active reviewer might have changed since publication".

 

What I did say was that "we" have no idea what the original cache submission was presented to the Reviewer. And "we" have no idea just how many times the cache write-up was changed after being published.

 

B.

[+Walts Hunting]

There is no prohibition on going inside a business may having to interact work them. This definitely pushes the limit but I don't have s problem work out

[+thebruce0]

ETA: "They determined it fit the publishing guidelines without violating the 'commercial cache prohibition'." - as PP just mentioned, the active reviewer might have changed since publication, or the CO may have edited the listing since publication. Nonetheless, point #1 still remains: The reviewer's prerogative is the only one that matters.

 

I never anything like "the active reviewer might have changed since publication".

Ok dude, sorry I was going by the spirit of your reply. You're right, you didn't say "the active reviewer might have changed", so my wording was wrong, sorry for that. My point was that there are unknowns. All we know is what is there now, and that active reviewer is the only one whose judgment matters. In addition to your points that "there's no way for us to know what was presented to the Reviewer, and if it was edited post-publication", we also don't know who the current reviewer is who's tasked with managing it, if it's different than the original publisher (not likely, but possible).

(it may be, regarding the last point, that the publishing reviewer saw no violation, but the current reviewer does, and may have requested the change; it could be that it's the same reviewer, who has now noticed and decided to take action)

In short, I was in agreement and your comment prompted my eta

 

Anyway, it may be that internal reviewer discussions have altered their general judgment of the commercial guideline. If it used to be that listings just mentioning a business name were denied, but now they'll even publish caches where you can enter a business, hm.

Since we can't assume precedent, any judgments we think are 'exceptions' really are just case by case calls depending on your reviewer. If the guideline is purposefully vague, then you just have to make your case for what you want to publish, and hope you get a reviewer that agrees.

[+Mudfrog]

So its ok to run around a store to get the numbers, but not ok to have a cache in a campground? <_< <_<

 

Maybe the store owner wants people to come in, and be tempted to purchase something while hunting for coordinates, even though a purchase is not required to find the cache.

 

Maybe the campground owner does not want strangers wandering around their property. Maybe strangers wandering around upsets the residents or ends up with landscaping being destroyed.

 

Comparing apples and lemons...

 

B.

 

There was at least one cache submitted that would have taken finders into a privately owned campground. Permission was gained from the campground owner and it was stated that entrance was free with no interaction of employees necessary. It was denied for being too commercial. Sounds like this is pretty much the same thing.

[+The A-Team]

There is no prohibition on going inside a business may having to interact work them. This definitely pushes the limit but I don't have s problem work out

The grammatical errors in your post make it hard to tell exactly what you're trying to say, but there definitely is a guideline stating that requiring finders to go into a business can be grounds for denial of publication. In fact, this "guideline" is actually written as more of a rule, so it could be considered a prohibition.

Help Center article:

We DON'T allow:

...

• It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.
  

It's hard to read any grey-area into that, so it definitely seems like a hard rule to me.

[+dprovan]

The owner of this particular cache is not the owner of the business. He's simply a person who regularly shops there.

In that case, the first person is a lie that should be corrected.

[+Spenny!]

There is an earthcahe in our local museum. The museum is a business and you are required to pay an entrance fee to get inside. The answers are not obtainable without entering the museum. Is that a commercial cache?

[+niraD]

There is an earthcahe in our local museum. The museum is a business and you are required to pay an entrance fee to get inside. The answers are not obtainable without entering the museum. Is that a commercial cache?

Museums are often run by non-profit educational/historical societies, so they fall under a similar non-profit exception as government-run parks, libraries, community centers, athletic facilities, etc., which can charge fees for admission/parking.

[+fbingha]

...given the information they had available. However, if someone were to bring it to the reviewer's attention that the cache requires finders to go inside the business, I fully expect the cache would be retracted because it shouldn't have been published in the first place.

 

This isn't factually correct. Caches can be inside a business if the reviewer allows it or Groundspeak appeals allows it.

 

My basis for this is submitting a cache within a business and having the reviewer state that they will allow it if Groundspeak gives the okay. Groundspeak allowed the cache. Ultimately, I never published the cache since the business wanted their name on the cache page and I refused to do that.

 

As to what was explained to me, by the reviewer, in regards to the guidelines, is the phrase:

 

"It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service."

 

actually means:

 

That you can not require finders to either interact with employees or purchase a product or service.

 

You can ask people to enter a building though, which is subject to the reviewer's interpretation of the commercial aspect.

Edited November 18, 2015 by fbingha