Jeremy..Question: Hiders logging their own?

[Guest Lightning1996YCJP]

Question for Jeremy: (and open for discussion) Here in AZ we recently have had a question raised about whether it is kosher for a cache owner to log their own caches as "finds" (thereby increasing their stats). I guess some have been doing that, personally I feel it is "cheating" or something....I mean, logically, you can't "find" something using GPS and clues if you already know exactly where it is because you hid it!!

Thanks for your guidance and thoughts!

"Lightning" Yavapai Co. Jeep Posse Search and Rescue

[Guest Markwell]

OK - first of all, and Jeremy will reiterate this: Geocaching is not a competitive sport.

 

That being said...

 

Why would anyone want to increase their cache number in this format? To me it seems like going to someone else's cache, finding it, then covering up my eyes, only to uncover them and say "Look, I found it AGAIN!" Subsequently, they could then log it as "found" twice (or thrice, or four times, etc. depending on how many times they blinked).

 

If they are being that competitive, then they should push for Jeremy to include their hidden number instead of falsely inflating their found number.

 

Another suggestion might be for them to keep track themselves how many hides and finds they have and put them in the logs at that time. That way, you can see that while you may have 42 finds and 10 hides now, when you found this particular cache, you only had 5 finds and no hidden caches.

 

Just spouting there - bottom line, I think that logging your own hide is bad form except for Moving Geocaches like Moving Target and others like it.

[Guest k2dave]

unless you are having some contest w/ them they are only cheating themselves. _ hey if they really wanted to they could log every cache on this site.

 

Don't sweat it

 

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"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

- Second Amendment

to the U.S. Constitution

[Guest ArtnKay]

cheating...contest...

amazing...

since the 'stats' do not reflect ANY kind of ability or talent other than longevity and experience, this is a moot discussion...

a contest could be arranged by some industrious sole by stashing several that are revealed at a breakfast or other gathering with the first to get all (or largest number after set number of hours) WINNING...

hmmm...sounds interesting...i may organize this myself here in va. ...hmmmm

[Guest Lightning1996YCJP]

Thanks for the input so far....and to clarify, please know that I do not agree with logging your own caches, and I am not that competitive. I'm not "sweating it", I was trying to get some guidelines to take back to the discussion on my list-serve.

And, some people ARE competitive, concerned about their stats compared to others, etc. For them, it adds to to the game, and I don't necessarliy see anything basically wrong with that, as long as everything is done fairly.

Thanks

[Guest jeremy]

Hmm... Perhaps instead of showing a score based on finds, I should base it on the difficulty factor of caches.

 

So a 5/5 would be logged as 10 points when a 1/1 would be listed as a 2. I'll then ignore caches that you own (no matter how often you log them). Or better yet, seperate scores for difficulty and terrain so you can have separate categories.

 

Of course, as reiterated, I do not consider this a competitive sport. However, I do concede that some folks do like the friendly nature of competition. So as long as we do not impose some sort of competitive importance to the sport I have no issue with making changes to help those who do like a little competition.

 

Jeremy

[Guest Exocet]

Jeremy,

 

The 5/5 = 10, 1/1 = 2 points idea is a good one. If it was possible, it would be nice to see something like: Exocet (54 found, 150 points) ...so it gives people an idea of what their average difficulty is.

 

Hopefully this will also stimulate much more difficult caches. I think there's an absolute dearth of 4/4's and 5/5's.

[Guest Artful Dodger]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Exocet:

Jeremy,

 

The 5/5 = 10, 1/1 = 2 points idea is a good one. If it was possible, it would be nice to see something like: Exocet (54 found, 150 points) ...so it gives people an idea of what their average difficulty is.

 

Hopefully this will also stimulate much more difficult caches. I think there's an absolute dearth of 4/4's and 5/5's.

---

 

I think that this points system is a very good idea.!

[Guest Markwell]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeremy:

So a 5/5 would be logged as 10 points when a 1/1 would be listed as a 2. I'll then ignore caches that you own (no matter how often you log them). Or better yet, seperate scores for difficulty and terrain so you can have separate categories.

---

 

A) - I like the separation of Difficulty and Terrain on the total points.

 

- The only exception I would make to ignoring your own caches would be event caches. I created the webpage for the Chicago event this summer, but I actually did find a cache there that I didn't plant. Even though the picnic is rated 1/1, I wouldn't want to lose those points.

 

Also, be careful to allow people to multi-log a cache and have the totals add in. Some caches move around (Hitchhikers, Traveling Caches) and can indeed be found at different coordinates by the same finder.

 

[This message has been edited by Markwell (edited 10 September 2001).]

[Guest bunkerdave]

Personally, I think it is all fine the way it is. Since when are we keeping score? I know that as one of the high finders, I do not consider myself any more "skilled" than anyone else (especially when I still have failed hunts) but I am interested in seeing how active the people in my area are. That is really all it tells when someone has a high find number. The caches found is a good measure of this, since someone who is going out every day and logging a cache is clearly quite active. Lately we have had several join me in the "100 club" from my state, which pleases me.

 

Please don't complicate this game with a lot of mucked up scoring systems. I don't think that will help any but those who are just in it for the stats anyway, and they are few and far between.

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 10 September 2001).]

[Guest Cool Breeze]

I don't like the idea of making this some sort of competitive sport. I personally would like the stats to stay the same as they are now. If someone wants to be lame and log their own placed caches so be it. Keep points off my stats.

 

-breeze

[Guest celts]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkerdave:

 

Please don't complicate this game with a lot of mucked up scoring systems. I don't think that will help any but those who are just in it for the stats anyway, and they are few and far between.

 

---

 

I concur. There's a saying that goes "If it ain't broke--don't fix it". Just my 2 cents.

[Guest Lightning1996YCJP]

roup of geo-cachers. I wasn't bringing up the topic to try and get Jeremy to change anything he does, just to get people's opinions on the one issue I asked about (logging your own caches) and as it possibly relates to how our local website guys are compiling stats for our local cachers. (Someone on the list serve brought it up) So, calm down everybody!! It was just a question!

 

 

[This message has been edited by Lightning1996YCJP (edited 10 September 2001).]

[Guest k2dave]

quote:

---

So a 5/5 would be logged as 10 points when a 1/1 would be listed as a 2.

---

 

What about multiplying them so a 1,1 would be a 1 and a 5,5 would be 25

[Guest rusty]

To restate what someone already said. "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I think the system is just fine now. Cache rating is still a very subjective thing and points based on rating would just be multiplying the original margin of error.

 

I have seen people log their own caches, I have seen them log notes as finds, and I saw one person that logged the same cache 4 times with the same comment. Obviously some of these were beginner errors but who really cares.

 

It is also possible to legitimately log your own cache. I adopted two caches that I had previously logged, if you didn't know the situation it would look like I logged my own. Markwell also brought up moving caches which could be another exception. Don't sweat it, hunt, find, have fun!

 

Rusty...

 

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Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

[Guest embi]

I agree. This is a family sport. Bringing in scores will just make it a race to see who is "better".

My 4 and 5 year old neice and nephew have found a 1/1 and a 2/2 and who knows what next.

Is someone who finds 100 caches "better" than someone finding thier 2nd one???

I score points by seeing the kids faces light up when we find the cache. Can't beat that EVER!!

They dont care what points....they just want to find the next "treasure".

[Guest Cisupete]

People !!! Get a grip !! This sport is for pleasure - not competition. I whole-heartedly agree: Don't mess with a good thing.

[Guest moghedian]

No scores, just fun. I'm in it for me and my girl and the good times together finding caches. You will have people climbing up cliffs, diving underwater, risking life and limb, etc., just to get those all important "points!" Leave it as is. People have enjoyed it so far without points mucking it all up. "Well, I got poison ivy and that should be worth 2 points."....."Yeah, well I hiked 4 miles only to find the cache had been plundered. Those 4 miles (8 total roundtrip!) should be worth something!!" Points only open up another can of worms. My 2 cents or 4.

[Guest yrium]

Look at the two caches called BREEDER & NUMBER ONE SON for another type of cache that can be validly logged by its owner.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=3691

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=3750

 

--- yrium ---

 

p.s. On the subject of scoring... If it doesn't involve square roots of sums of squares with a natural log or two its just not complex enough!

[Guest T-storm]

You know what I've wished I could do that I just don't feel would be right? If I could log the caches owned by my partner but really hidden as some sort of team effort so they'd quit cluttering up my list of caches close to home! Being able to have some way to make all IDs entered for "placed by" names recognized when sorting the results of a cache listing search. You know, so that all the caches I had a hand in placing would wind up at the bottom of the list. Now *that* I could appreciate!

 

[This message has been edited by T-storm (edited 10 September 2001).]

[Guest leskowitz]

One way around it could be if we posted the number of caches hiding next to the number of caches found. Being a hider and not a finder, I would be a 6/14. Thoughts?

[Guest Anton]

y fault you don't want everyone to know you have an embarrassing ratio. Spend a little less time thinking up fancy math that pats you on the back for finding caches with a lot of difficulty and rugged terrain, and a little more time putting something back into the sport. Go hide a cache!

 

I'm tired of carrying the weight for all the high-count guys who can't be bothered to do the work that makes this sport a reality. I'm tired of getting so little recognition for the work I've done hiding caches.

 

You think it's hard to find caches? Well, it's much harder, and much more expensive, creating a good cache experience. I not only spend my time, just like the finders who come to my caches, I also spend time planning them. I spend money for the box and its contents, about $30 each: ammo box, one-time camera, logbook & pen, ziplock bags, and the prizes. Sure, some guys make cheap caches in margerine boxes, and put them in uninteresting places. Frankly, I don't know why they bother. Maybe they're just high-count finders who were trying to work off some guilt. Who knows? But most people take pride in their caches, and try hard to make them challenging, or memorable, or both.

 

Finding a cache is like going to the movies, or maybe like being a movie critic. Creating a cache is like being the director and the producer. Movies need audiences, but first there has to BE a movie, or nothing happens. Try not to get that process backwards. Hiding first, then finding - there's no other way to make this sport possible.

 

Anton, 15/21

[Guest Craig]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anton:

Greetings!

 

 

If you're one of those players that chooses to spend all your time finding, and never hiding...well...you SHOULD feel guilty. It's not my fault you don't want everyone to know you have an embarrassing ratio. Spend a little less time thinking up fancy math that pats you on the back for finding caches with a lot of difficulty and rugged terrain, and a little more time putting something back into the sport. Go hide a cache!

 

I'm tired of carrying the weight for all the high-count guys who can't be bothered to do the work that makes this sport a reality. I'm tired of getting so little recognition for the work I've done hiding caches.

 

You think it's hard to find caches? Well, it's much harder, and much more expensive, creating a good cache experience. I not only spend my time, just like the finders who come to my caches, I also spend time planning them. I spend money for the box and its contents, about $30 each: ammo box, one-time camera, logbook & pen, ziplock bags, and the prizes. Sure, some guys make cheap caches in margerine boxes, and put in uninteresting places. Frankly, I don't know why they bother. Maybe they're just high-count finders who were trying to work off some guilt. Who knows? But most people take pride in their caches, and try hard to make them challenging, or memorable, or both.

 

Anton, 15/21

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SHOULD feel guilty? No I do not fell guilty. thire is no resone to. Embarrassing ratio? No no place in About Geocaching, that says find a cache hide one.

 

"I'm tired of carrying the weight for all the high-count guys who can't be bothered to do the work that makes this sport a reality."

Then stop doing it.

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

[This message has been edited by Craig (edited 16 September 2001).]

[Guest zilla]

Personally, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see just the number of cache's a person has hidden. Get rid of the found cache's number. Same with the number of posts a person has posted in the forums.. I am not into this for competition of any kind.. IMHO the found numbers only promotes elitism. Who cares how many have been found. It's already logged on the individual cache pages and on each cacher's log page..

[Guest k]

Logging your own cache? I haven't done this yet. Note I did say YET! My son and I do this together, but a few months ago I hid a cache for the members of his scout patrol to find. When he finally finds it, it will be on his own and will want to post it as a find. What difference does it make, anyway?

M (of M&K)

[Guest faithwalker]

It ain't broke, don't try to fix it. It doesn't really matter, just have fun in what ever way you cache. Why worry over the little things, sure I got 2/45 but I've replaced one that got burned out(my own). I've replaced some that got taken(not mine). I've rebuilt LOTS from the extra caching stuff that I carry all the time. I've placed many new log books and caching statements in those that were wet or full. We've carried out the trash that the racoons left laying around. We've put lots of things in ziploc bags that weren't. I have some sitting right in the next room ready to place. I do it because I LOVE this stuff. It's brought my wife and I so much closer, I'm off the couch and away from the tv more. My health is better (Dr. said so!). We've been to so many new places we didn't even know were there. So what's the diff. LIVE - LOVE - CACHE and be HAPPY THAT YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM AND ABILITY TO CACHE. Also I thought this was on the honor system. Those with honor will do the right thing.

 

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...Cache Responsible and may all your birds be in view... ...Faithwalker & DaMama...

 

[This message has been edited by faithwalker (edited 16 September 2001).]

[Guest Nemesis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by faithwalker:

It ain't broke, don't try to fix it.... Those with honor will do the right thing.

---

 

I agree, everyone has their own way of playing the game, as long as everyone shows consideration for others geocaching will come out better off.

 

Cheers,

Donovan.

[Guest Byron]

ones rated harder than I have, again, so what?

I can see it now, "That cache should not be a 4 it's only a 2. I insist that you change it." or some other such nonsense. But if you want to play a numbers game, that's fine. I will not participate in that, anymore than I would participate in the time it takes to hike from bug bog to blister pass nonsense.

 

If I wanted to compete I'd be doing something else.

 

My $.02 worth.

[Guest Lightning1996YCJP]

wow....I ask a question about whether it's fair for hiders to log their own caches and look where the thread takes off to! Arguing about numbers, etc.....

 

Oh well....so much more important stuff going on in the world to worry about this anymore.

 

Peace to you all...and may you all be at peace with God.

 

God bless America!

[Guest Nemesis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lightning1996YCJP:

I ask a question about whether it's fair for hiders to log their own caches and look where the thread takes off to!

---

 

Oops, sorry 'bout that! Now back to the topic...

 

I think it's not fair to log your own cache. Why would you want to anyway? Geocaching is not a race in which those who find or hide the most caches are the winners. It's more about getting outside and enjoying the world around us. Take me, for example, I have hidden 29 caches and found only 9. If I was to log all of my caches as found I would have found 38, but I don't. Where should I stop, should I be allowed to log my cache as found every time I visit it for maintenace? As I have said before, this is how I play the game, but if others want to log their own caches as found then they should feel free to do so.

 

Cheers,

Donovan.

 

[This message has been edited by Nemesis (edited 17 September 2001).]

[Guest EyezOfTheWorld]

Uh, i don't see any point in any kind of "scoring" system what-so-ever unless, of course, you can figure in money spent on plane tickets or gas money plus factor in number of miles flown or driven. Case in point - living in Anchorage, Alaska. A person may be able to rack up 100 points and be done with the entire state (and i might add that the entire state is the size of ONE FIFTH of the whole Lower 48!!!!) Then what? Living in Salt Lake City or some other places, 100 points could be racked up in a week then that person could move on to 200 points then 500 points then 1,000 and then the person in Anchorage is what? Sh!t out of luck? Any mention of finds/hides should be ditched completely, it's pompous. What does the rating or scoring sytem prove if a person doesn't have many caches easily accesible without a dispensable 5 figure bank account and plenty of vacation time?

 

And i might further add: God Bless America

 

[This message has been edited by EyezOfTheWorld (edited 17 September 2001).]

[Guest Alysn]

I enjoy geocaching based upon it's own merits and also as a bit of a competition. That being said, I don't think a scoring system based upon the difficulty ratings is a good idea. I have hit a number of caches that were rated as a three that I found in a minute and a number of caches rated as a 1 that it took me an hour to find. When I rated my cache (only one - I'll get back to that) I started out with a 3, carefully evaluating it based upon the guidelines. After taking a friend out to try it and four logs from other cachers, I realized that it was rated way too hard. The numbers obviously can be deceptive and interpreted differently. A scoring system based upon this would be no more accurate.

 

Regarding the hid to found ratio - While I've found 49 caches, I have only hid one. I've held off because I'm moving across the country and didn't want to leave unattended caches in my wake. I finally decided to hide a few and hope for the best. I think that, not knowing this, someone might think I'm a selfish cacher, so obviously even a simple ratio system can also be deceptive.

 

I would support a profile system for users though - something that, if a cacher chose, would allow others to see a screen similar to our own cache pages with some additonal info if the cacher added it. I've heard that such a suggestion was previously made, but I didn't read the forums back then so forgive me if I'm being redundant.

 

Much more than my two cents worth.

[Guest rediguana]

I think its nice and simple the way it is. A cache is a cache. You can only find it once, unless it is a moving cache, in which case you cannot find it consecutively. Also, if a complex points system comes in, that may stop people placing easy caches as there is less incentive to find them - perhaps reducing the number of available caches.

 

One point for one cache.

 

Cheers Gav

[Guest Chris Juricich]

But you know, nothing's to prevent any dingbat from simply logging on to any local cache that strikes his or her fancy and saying-- found it!

 

A rather dopey thing to do, admittedly, but some are more concerned with the appearance of success than the actual thing.

[Guest Anton]

er's activity in the sport. It's nothing more than that, unless you THINK it so.

 

If you can't stand giving recognition to players who hide caches, then get rid of the found numbers, and make it even. No hides, then no finds either. That would be fine with me - I didn't ask for my found number to be broadcast to the geocaching public.

 

The find numbers appear all over this site because Jeremy set up the system that way. Players don't have an option to turn it off.

Yet, they don't have an option to have their find number displayes either. Is that fair? Why is their no automatic recogntion for hiding caches, just as there is for finding them.

 

BTW, it's hard (and unwise) to create fake geocache page on this site, but it's easy to log false find reports. I doubt many players care much about false find reports - just makes you look like a fool - but I bet most players would care a lot about a fake cache clue page.

 

Anton

[Guest Eight Legs]

On our way to a cache in Ontario, Canada, we found it on a picnic table far from the given coords. We logged it as a find. We then rehid it (to prevent plundering) and sent the coords to the cache owner so he could find it then decide what he wanted to do about it (rehide, archive, whatever). He replaced it in its original location and logged the find. I consider this fair. He had to seek his own cache. We like the system as is.

[Guest DeanONH]

IMHO...

 

Since there are no standards for difficulty & terrain, a score based on these factors would be meaningless. I have seen low scores for difficulty & terrain on caches that were difficult & vice versa.

 

I also agree with the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Guest Anton]

FYI...the new saying is:

 

"If it ain't broke, you didn't look hard enough."

[Guest Choberiba]

First I'd like to say that I like the idea of listing how many caches have been hidden by a user as well as found.

 

I thought this thread was going to be about people like me who verify that everything is hunky-dorey with the cache I placed.

 

Checking up on it and documenting this fact for interested parties to see.

If something was just spotted by the owner a few days before, but not logged as found for the last few months, someone may not be sure that it's still there.

 

On a related note:

Any chance we can search for caches based on difficulty or last found?

 

Something like a series of boxes to check that sort the results by:

 

() Date last found

() Date Listed

() Difficulty

 

Just an idea...

[Guest Ramness570]

When I place my stashes I log them as a find and leave a note as to why I choose the location. I also log them as find so when I am searching for stashes by zipcode my own don't show up in the list. I dont really care what my found # is, in fact I don't even know what it is right now off the top of my head but I do know what ever it is subtract 8 for my stashes and thats my number of finds.

 

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Brian & TabascoX

Senior Memeber Southeast Xterra Club

Geocaching since October 2000.