Deja Vu

2.7k · December 31, 2004

A new memorial for our fallen comrades was erected in and dedicated on Nov. 11, 2004 here in Loveland Co. So I decided to see if it was possible to make a virtual out of it. And yes you have guessed it. It did not meet the guidelines! Which I believe is wrong. A lot of our buddies have gave their lifes so we can go on and enjoy our freedoms.

Here is a copy of my letter to the approver:

This is special to us Vets who live and cache in Loveland. And we are still loosing a lot of our buddies. This memorial is in a special Park that is named after a sailor who was killed at Pearl Harbor. A lot of money was raised in this community to purchase the art work, and even though a lot of groups worked long and hard on it, it doesn't qualify as a virtual cache. And the reason for the disapproval doesn't even make sense.

So would you unarchive this cache and make it viable because it means a lot to a lot of people in this local community.

And his reply back was:

Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches.

The guidelines seem pretty clear to me.

Sorry

Michael

Here is what the Memorial looks like, so I'm asking fellow cachers do they think this qualifies as a virtual.

9.4k · December 31, 2004

I think it's a monument that has special meaning to lots of people, but I fail to see the "WOW!" aspect of it.

3.8k · December 31, 2004

I was very moved by the photo. My son-in-law is recently back from Iraq, and I can only imagine the feeling of those parents whose sons didn't return. Without in any way lessening that sentiment, the chances of getting a virtual approved for any memorial is pretty remote.

Is there any way that you could hide a cache near by (even a micro)? Then on the cache page, you could encourage people to stop by and see the memorial.

2.5k · December 31, 2004

WOW!

2.1k · December 31, 2004

Yep, Deja vu. Looks like this would be a drive up Virtual too. Might I suggest something like Remembrance?

24.7k · December 31, 2004

You could always drill a hole in one of those trees since they were so rude as to have tall straight trunks with no squirrel holes for a handy micro.

Or you could dig a hole in the lawn and stuff a sprinkler into it with a cache compartment.

Or maybe you could just epoxy an earth magnet inside the helmet and then use it for an altoid tin.

These options while failing utterly to show respect for the area, the environment, or the memorial would convert this idea into one that meets the guidelines this site has for a virtual. To Wit "If at all possible turn the virtual in a lame micro". Actually they wouldn't since it's really not viable to do those things to turn it into a lame micro that would take away from the experience. However that you can't meets one of the other criteria for a virtual cache. The one where it's not really feasible to place a traditional cache.

Per the same guidelines so many things don't qualify for WOW that nothing qualifies making the guidelines meaningless in this area.

6.4k · December 31, 2004

Wow! It reminds me of this one I did not too long ago.

December 31, 2004

It looks like a good virtuial to me and what does he mean about historical markers being too common. Those are my favorite virtuals. I guess we don't need to learn anything new.

1.6k · December 31, 2004

The problem with historical markers is that during the 50s and 60's states put them up for darn near anything. We have historical markers for indian villages that were barely there when there were people there. We have them for about anything that some history buff could con the state into memorializing.

Your monument really falls out of that group. I would not try to make this a micro, as there is no courteous way to do it. If we are going to live the geocacher's code, then we have to respect the environment.

This monument deserves to be recognized. I would suggest making this the first stage of a two part micro. Plant a disposable micro about 50 yards away under some mailbox or park bench. That way you can get people to visit the site and pay their respects, and not mess with it, then go find the cache.

Use a coded clue to the effect that the park bench X meters away from this location has the cache container.

Edited December 31, 2004 by bigredmed

7.2k · December 31, 2004

A new memorial for our fallen comrades was erected in and dedicated on Nov. 11, 2004 here in Loveland Co. So I decided to see if it was possible to make a virtual out of it. And yes you have guessed it. It did not meet the guidelines! Which I believe is wrong. A lot of our buddies have gave their lifes so we can go on and enjoy our freedoms.

Here is a copy of my letter to the approver:

This is special to us Vets who live and cache in Loveland. And we are still loosing a lot of our buddies. This memorial is in a special Park that is named after a sailor who was killed at Pearl Harbor. A lot of money was raised in this community to purchase the art work, and even though a lot of groups worked long and hard on it, it doesn't qualify as a virtual cache. And the reason for the disapproval doesn't even make sense.

So would you unarchive this cache and make it viable because it means a lot to a lot of people in this local community.

And his reply back was:

Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches.

The guidelines seem pretty clear to me.

Sorry

Michael

Here is what the Memorial looks like, so I'm asking fellow cachers do they think this qualifies as a virtual.

<image removed for brevity>

I'll have to agree with the reviewer on this one. In know of at least a couple of hundred memorials around my area dealing with different military events. When you live right in an area where many Civil War Battles were fought you see them all over the place. Some have been privately funded and some are government funded. The sentiments held with those memorials are the same no matter who pays for it.

Here is a couple of addtional examples from caches I have created.

This cache is for the National Monument for the Vietnam War. It is a virtual since it is the main US memorial for the Vietnam Veterans and it is NPS property.

This cache is for a local monument for the Vietnam War. It is a traditional since it is placed in a small park and is yet another of the thousands of local Vietnam memorials around the country. I don't think my physical cache cheapens the experience one bit. I think I did a great job of finding a place for my cache that has stood the test of time as well as giving cache finders a fun challenge. My film container is about 50 feet away from the memorial.

There is already a virtual cache for the National World War II Memorial. This one is just a new local memorial of which there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands or more). If every memorial is approved there would be millions of virtual caches. No thanks.

Please read my post on this link as well. Jeremy is very specific about virtual caches.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=0entry917158

2.7k · January 2, 2005

Well I'll just have to turn this into a very long and difficult multi-cache.

January 2, 2005

Well I'll just have to turn this into a very long and difficult multi-cache.

Not really.

I do understand your being upset that the rules don't allow you to list this as a cache, lots of folks get ticked by what is perceived as sometimes being an overly restrictive or too arbitrary approval process.

However this doesn't mean you can't list it as a cache without making a long or difficult multileg cache.

If there is no place to respectfully place a cache near this monument then yes, you will need to make a multileg cache, but it need not be long or difficult.

Does this monument have a plaque of any kind? If so you can turn that plaque into the coords for the physical cache. Simply use the coords of the monument as the first leg of the multileg cache and provide some means for people to derive the coords for the physical cache by reading the words on the cache. If there is a single number on the monument you can simply indicate the coords for the final on your cache page, but leave out one number. That missing number will be on the monument.

Not everyone is interested in visiting a monument, regardless of what it is. Having a physical cache included will increase the number of people who will seek this and therefore will increase the number who will see the monument. Perhaps someone who is generally unconcerned will have a change of heart upon seeing this monument? Never know.

January 2, 2005

I never have understood the ban on virtuals here. I personally love the ones that I have done that have to do with history. I am looking for more of them to do. I did one here in Texas recently that suggested you park in said parking lot with a historical monument and then hid the cache about a hundred and fifty yards from the historical marker. If this is in a park, I would suggest trying that. It would draw people to see what looks like a marvelous monument and still have a physical cache. I don't know if this is possible in the area this momument is, and in fact I would put it farther away if possible, but it might be an idea you would try!

January 2, 2005

I like history and virtuals. I would much rather do your virtual than the many lame lamppost micros that get approved with ease. The bottom line is that we don't make the rules so we need to adapt. Instead of a multi you could always make the sights that you want them to see as optional for "extra points". The people who care will earn the points and those that don't care won't. (No need to force them)

January 2, 2005

I like history and virtuals. I would much rather do your virtual than the many lame lamppost micros that get approved with ease.

You've got that right.

7.2k · January 2, 2005

I never have understood the ban on virtuals here.

There is no ban on virtual caches. They just have to meet the guidelines. The WW II National Memorial cache was just approved around 5 months ago. It was approved because it meets the guidelines.

4.8k · January 2, 2005

No disrespect intended, but I'd go with the Approver on this one. If it were me, I'd do what a couple of folks have suggested. Do it as an offset. Hide the cache container a fair distance off, take people to the memorial first to calculate the correct coords from something on the memorial.

I think that most people would really appreciate seeing this monument. Don't give up on the idea TS. It's a worthy idea.

2.7k · January 2, 2005

The key word is ALL

Note, however, that new virtual cache proposals are only approved if they meet the all of conditions listed in the guidelines below.

And that makes it impossible to do, because what is WOW to me is not WOW to others.

And since physical containers have precendence that is the way it must be. Well it will be done with a LARGE container. I probably won't up the terrain to 4+ stars like most of my traditionals but the difficulty part will go up. After all this is the 5th year of caching. And when this cache is done it will be part of a traditional that I am working on for release on 5/5/05. So hang on and put your thinking caps on and get ready for a very long hike come May.

4.8k · January 2, 2005

That's the spirit :rolleyes:

As my wife would say, "don't get mad, get EVEN!" :lol:

(Note to self: have to plan a roadtrip to snag some Tahosa caches :unsure: )

January 2, 2005

Heres mine I had made a virtual a couple of months ago.Worlds largest egg.I think it says WOW.

Edited January 2, 2005 by Buddaman

1.6k · January 2, 2005

One of the recurring weaknesses of this site is the use of vaguery. There is a lot of this in various aspects of the game and its wearisome.

Define "wow". Hard to do for more than one person.

Virtual caches got over done a couple of years ago and instead of simply rejecting caches that were lame or were generic, and telling people why they were rejected, TPTB came up with the rules for virtuals including the "Wow rule". This allows them to disapprove anything. They can even disapprove yours. This will now convert a quiet moment at the memorial into one leg of a long multi and yet another memorial will be transformed into but a leg of a cache hunt.

I supported the reaction against virtuals a couple of years ago after running into a number of them that were truly thoughtless and just silly (yellow jeep comes to mind). The problem with reactions that are in the form of revolt is the reality of Ford's observation that the last bullet fired in a revolution is seldom fired by the person that fired the first. The effort to rid our site of a couple of thousand virts at road side markers, gave us a system that blocks folks like you that have a good marker that really would be a nice virt and only a so-so micro. The effort was needed, but the reaction was not what the initiators had in mind.

9.2k · January 3, 2005

Heres mine I had made a virtual a couple of months ago.Worlds largest egg.I think it says WOW. [

That egg's only 10' high. The the one in Winlock, Washington is two feet taller, as you can see here.

January 3, 2005

Wow! It reminds me of this one I did not too long ago.

Mopar, Thanks for the kind words about VM. Of the caches we have placed, that one brings the best comments. <_<

January 3, 2005

I never have understood the ban on virtuals here.

There is no ban on virtual caches. They just have to meet the guidelines. The WW II National Memorial cache was just approved around 5 months ago. It was approved because it meets the guidelines.

I'm not gonna get into the argument that could easily ensue here but I will agree that there isn't a total ban, but it might as well be as it seems ALMOST impossible to get one approved. Anyway, Sorry for bringing that up, its a pointless conversation as there isn't any way to change it.

January 3, 2005

Heres mine I had made a virtual a couple of months ago.Worlds largest egg.I think it says WOW. [

That egg's only 10' high. The the one in Winlock, Washington is two feet taller, as you can see here.

Yea but my EGG weighs more than the one in Winlock, Washington 1200 to 3000 and yes the mentone indiana egg is two feet shorter. that is why the site listed both of them.

9.4k · January 3, 2005

I don't know why having to place a traditional cache is so bad. I placed this cache in a park that has a lot of history. I leave it up to the finder to decide if they're interested in reading about it. The logs I receive seem to suggest that finders enjoy it this way. (i.e. I don't force them to read anything to get credit for the cache like all those lame virtuals out there) and no, there is no room in the park for a larger cache

2.7k · January 3, 2005

I don't know why having to place a traditional cache is so bad. I don't force them to read anything to get credit for the cache like all those lame virtuals out there)

Did I say it was bad to place a traditional. No I didn't!

And when I do place a traditional its usually a wee bit on the tough side for the lame drive and baggers. Maybe I should take them out of the hills and just plant them in all the little patches of bushes in the muggle prone local parks.

There is no force involved asking some cacher to read a placque to get the answers, they make that choice on their own. I have several virtuals in CO Springs its your choice to look for them or not, no force from me is involved.

And as others have said in this thread the guidelines are vague and unclear.

Log Date: 12/30/2004

HI I was checking your cache for approval. I am sorry but this cache does not qualify as a virtual cache.

Please reference #2 below.

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects. Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should "WOW" the prospective finder. Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches. Unusual landmarks or items that would be in a coffee table book are good examples. If you don't know if it is appropriate, contact your local approver first, or post a question to the forums about your idea.

Now lets break #2 down into some sensible components:

A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects.

And I believe it is novel and would be of interst to other players, it does have a special historic tone, and the community and caching quality are far more interesting than a lame altoids tin at Wally World.

Since the reward for a virtual cache is the location, the location should "WOW" the prospective finder

Its a WOW to me and those that attended the Cache Event on Sat. 1/1 thought so too.

Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches

This line leaves it open to speculation and pandoras box. But since we are still in the process of losing those that give us our freedoms I believe that the memorial and what the saying on it says this in itself removes the common factor and sets it apart from the rest of the crowd.

Unusual landmarks or items that would be in a coffee table book are good examples

This is another vague and unclear statement. What I might want on a coffee table book would be different than others.

If cachers don't like virtuals then just don't look for them, its that simple.

January 4, 2005

Against my better judgment, I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

I don't think it is useful to attempt to justify a virtual by demeaning "lame" traditional caches--that is an apples-to-oranges comparison. (This is not to say that I don't think there are lame traditional caches out there, just that it has no real relevance to the discussion of virtuals.)

I also think that this issue is very emotionally charged because, as Tahoe and Sons pointed out, this specific memorial is particularly poignant and painful for a lot of us because of the ultimate sacrifices happening right now.

That said, and not to in any way denigrate or trivialize the sacrifices being made, that fact does not really have a bearing regarding the guidelines for a virtual. This sort of historical memorial to troops killed in action is, sadly, all too common throughout the country and the world.

I also think that the loss of our young men and women is so recent and painful that we cannot really have a balanced perspective on the historical significance of this sort of memorial. It may also be that this sort of emotionally-charged memorial cannot be made into any kind of cache without trivializing it.

John

Team Shredded Bark

Edited January 4, 2005 by Team Shredded Bark

24.7k · January 4, 2005

...I don't think it is useful to attempt to justify a virtual by demeaning "lame" traditional caches--that is an apples-to-oranges comparison. (This is not to say that I don't think there are lame traditional caches out there, just that it has no real relevance to the discussion of virtuals.)...

It has a lot of relevance.

One thing a cache owner does is shape the expereince. They can do this a lot of ways. For example I've got a cache I'm working on. I could of done it two ways.

One. Set up a 10 part multi cache where you find each stage in a film canister in the woods that gives you the next stage until you hit the last stage and that's the box of treasure alluded to in the story. The feel is 'micro in the woods multi'.

Two. Use UV paint to paint footsteps that point the way and make a trail to the final cache, the foot prints are integrated into the story. The cache itself is hidden as described in the story and the container has replica coins from the same era as the story is set within. The feel is a lot closer to the scooby gang following a ghost. All that remains is for the snow to clear so I can set the parts out.

For my cache I've chosen the second, eleminated all but one cache to find and made the experience more in line with what I'm intending. A ghost hunt with a goofy twist.

Virtuals are no different. By the skillful use of clues, hints, and questions you can shape the experience to be what you are after. Or you can hide a traditional which by comparison is 'lame'. I defend peoples right to place the cache their muse demands lame or not. This site has it's own ideas on the larger activity. Sometimes the two clash. Placing a traditional over a well done virtual (and I admit there a lot of marginal virtuals) isn't an improvment to the overall RASH.

To end the Rant, I agree in that a comparison between a virtual and a lame tradtional does little good without the larger idea being explained.

2.7k · January 29, 2005

Well I think I have finally come up with a workable solution for the pending cache.

One of the pleasures of being a Chef is the ability to create some exciting dishes to please the palate. And the same principle can be applied to caching.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Menu - A Virtual description that list the entrees.

Appetizer - A Micro that whets the appetite.

Salad - A Small dish that really starts to enhance the experience of this dish.

Chefs Special - A Traditional dish that will leave you satisfied.

Dessert - A special 5 star delight that is still in the Cache oven.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To find this special dish you will have to read the menu and answer the questions. When you have answered the questions the location of the Appetizer will be revealed to you. And after you have consumed this very small dish you will know how to find the salad. And when that is done you will be ready to find the Chef's Special. And the dessert will only be available to those that have consumed this meal.

38.2k · January 29, 2005

Well I think I have finally come up with a workable solution for the pending cache.

One of the pleasures of being a Chef is the ability to create some exciting dishes to please the palate. And the same principle can be applied to caching.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Menu - A Virtual description that list the entrees.

Appetizer - A Micro that whets the appetite.

Salad - A Small dish that really starts to enhance the experience of this dish.

Chefs Special - A Traditional dish that will leave you satisfied.

Dessert - A special 5 star delight that is still in the Cache oven.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To find this special dish you will have to read the menu and answer the questions. When you have answered the questions the location of the Appetizer will be revealed to you. And after you have consumed this very small dish you will know how to find the salad. And when that is done you will be ready to find the Chef's Special. And the dessert will only be available to those that have consumed this meal.

Image removed

I think that's great and far better than driving up to a memorial, jotting down a few names or dates and heading home to your computer to log it.

Edited January 29, 2005 by briansnat

January 29, 2005

If they are looking for a "wow" factor....then I have to say "Wow!....I cannot believe the approver did not think this qualified as a virtual".

Of course, opinions might differ, but how is that different from this cache about atrain caboose or this cache about a train engine? Around these parts, these sights are almost "a dime a dozen". So why did they get approved as virtuals?

Having rules is one thing...but this cache was not approved based on opinion...not the rules. (which is my opinion <_< )

- GeoMike

9.4k · January 29, 2005

If they are looking for a "wow" factor....then I have to say "Wow!....I cannot believe the approver did not think this qualified as a virtual".

Of course, opinions might differ, but how is that different from this cache about atrain caboose or this cache about a train engine? Around these parts, these sights are almost "a dime a dozen". So why did they get approved as virtuals?

Having rules is one thing...but this cache was not approved based on opinion...not the rules. (which is my opinion )

- GeoMike

The WOW! factor is one of the more recent additions to the guidelines, from late 2003 I believe.

Your first example, Carnege Caboose, was posted 8/4/2002. Your second example, Spirit of Cleburne, was listed even earlier, on 6/26/2002.

If you're going to pick out caches to support your arguement, at least find ones listed within the last 6 months or so. Older caches were grandfathered when the guidelines were updated. If submitted today, they wouldn't be approved either.

January 29, 2005

But the WOW factor is different for everyone. How can it realistically be used to judge the acceptability of a virtual cache? Use other black and white guidelines...but not one as that is extremely subjective.

GeoMike

Edited January 29, 2005 by GeoMike11

9.4k · January 29, 2005

But the WOW factor is different for everyone. How can it realistically be used to judge the acceptability of a virtual cache? Use other black and white guidelines...but not one as that is extremely subjective.

GeoMike

That's right, it is subjective. If you don't want to deal with that type of guideline, then place a physical cache at or near the same location. Poof! You don't have to deal with subjectivity! Problem solved, I'll send you my bill.

January 29, 2005

But the WOW factor is different for everyone. How can it realistically be used to judge the acceptability of a virtual cache? Use other black and white guidelines...but not one as that is extremely subjective.

GeoMike

That's right, it is subjective. If you don't want to deal with that type of guideline, then place a physical cache at or near the same location. Poof! You don't have to deal with subjectivity! Problem solved, I'll send you my bill.

I completely agree that this a better solution! Makes the hunt more interesting as well.

And I agree with the guidelines for virtuals being a bit more strict. Perhaps they should start removing the virtuals from the site that are no longer "up to snuff"? Hmmm...sounds like a good thread topic.... <_<

- GeoMike

January 29, 2005

I acutally like virts. Granted, some are lame but some are really interesting. I did this cache recently and we really enjoyed ourselves. Its a bunch of virts that eventually lead to a physical cache. I've driven by these spots at least 148,959,846 billion times and never had a clue!

I think you've got the right idea in making this one a multi TaS. Its more enjoyable...makes the finders actually use their brains instead of just following an arrow...plus you get your virt in and it is much easier to get approved! Win Win!

February 15, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Menu - A Virtual description that list the entrees.

Appetizer - A Micro that whets the appetite.

Salad - A Small dish that really starts to enhance the experience of this dish.

Chefs Special - A Traditional dish that will leave you satisfied.

Dessert - A special 5 star delight that is still in the Cache oven.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm salivating already.

But don't expect any kisses.

Nice work Tahosa.

Deja Vu

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