Groundspeak Forums: Alkaline, Nimh, Lithium, Lithium-ion Batteries - Groundspeak Forums

Jump to content

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Alkaline, Nimh, Lithium, Lithium-ion Batteries

#1 User is offline   OttoLund 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 01-June 04

  Posted 14 January 2006 - 07:30 AM

I started a thread some months ago but can't find it because the forum search feature isn't available.

Anyway, after having read all the posts on the subject I've concluded my battery research in the following thread in another forum:
http://web97962.ta31.talkactive.net/mbbs22...posts=1&start=1

For GPSrs: NiMH is the overall winner, lithium when it's freezing cold and sometimes lithium-ion when available. Alkalines should mainly be used only as spares and as seldom as possible.

(Do you all agree?)

Thank you for all your posts regarding batteries for GPSrs.

Otto

This post has been edited by OttoLund: 14 January 2006 - 07:33 AM


#2 User is offline   Marky 

  • ...since July 5, 2002
  • Group: +Charter Members
  • Posts: 5687
  • Joined: 05-July 02

Posted 14 January 2006 - 07:54 AM

I am pretty much in complete agreement. :unsure:

#3 User is offline   Miragee 

  • Wherever you go, there you are.
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 11171
  • Joined: 11-December 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 07:57 AM

I purchased the Energizer 15-minute charger, with four NiMH batteries, at Target for about $25.00 several months ago.

I love getting "fresh" batteries in only 15 minutes. :blink:

I have been using some form of rechargeable batteries since they first came out.

The better-quality batteries are best for GPSr units. The Wal-Mart and other off-brand batteries don't last nearly as long.

Alkaline batteries should be relegated to the spare flashlight . . . :unsure:

#4 User is offline   Alan2 

  • "Let's go caching. Woof."
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 4606
  • Joined: 04-October 01

Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:05 AM

Quote

For GPSrs: NiMH is the overall winner, lithium when it's freezing cold and sometimes lithium-ion when available. Alkalines should mainly be used only as spares and as seldom as possible.

(Do you all agree?)


I prefer alkalines. There's always available, fully charged unlike NiMH that lay around and I don't have to worry about charging ( is that battery charged enough?)and carrying around charges etc. But if NiMH give you a charge, great! :unsure:

#5 User is offline   Miragee 

  • Wherever you go, there you are.
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 11171
  • Joined: 11-December 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:22 AM

The nice thing about rechargeable batteries is that after the initial investment, you don't have to spend another dollar -- not for years.

I bought four additional rechargeable batteries for my 15-minute charger, so I always have four, extra, fully-charged batteries with me for my GPSr and camera. :unsure:

#6 User is offline   JohnnyVegas 

  • Back to school
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 5303
  • Joined: 05-January 03

Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:32 AM

Alan2, on Jan 14 2006, 09:05 AM, said:

Quote

For GPSrs: NiMH is the overall winner, lithium when it's freezing cold and sometimes lithium-ion when available. Alkalines should mainly be used only as spares and as seldom as possible.

(Do you all agree?)


I prefer alkalines. There's always available, fully charged unlike NiMH that lay around and I don't have to worry about charging ( is that battery charged enough?)and carrying around charges etc. But if NiMH give you a charge, great! :unsure:

I use Alkaline AAs in my meidian gold. I am not impressed will NiMH batteries and I know when I pick up a set of Alkaline batteries they are going to work.
Now it they ever came out with a Li Ion that could be used in place of a AA Alkaline, that I might be interested in.
Lithium AAs would be a good chioice in extreme cold, but for their price they are not a good choice for day to day use in most cases.

#7 User is offline   Team Cotati 

  • US Geocacher of the Year 2004,2006,2009
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 5698
  • Joined: 09-September 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:43 AM

Energizer rechargable 2500's...........you're done. :unsure:

#8 User is offline   JohnnyVegas 

  • Back to school
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 5303
  • Joined: 05-January 03

Posted 14 January 2006 - 09:47 AM

From your website

Quote

NiMH batteries leaks more capacity when stored than the other battery types, which has little significance because they can be recharged.


It is not of little significane if you load them up only to find they have lost their charge.

Also from your website

Quote

Some models have to be treated more carefully than other battery types because of danger of explosion. Popular, used in cellphones etc.


The danger of explosion with a Li Ion is a problem that occurs when some one tries to charge them in a charger that is not made to charge Li Ion batteries. In some cases people have bought Li Ion Batteries for cell phones that did not meet the specs of the cell phones, in these cases the sell phone would burst into flame because the battery in use was turn out more amps than the phone could handle. These batteries were not produced by the cell phone companies.

In these situations it is not the fault of the battery because some idiot does not use it correctly.

If you are going to post a problem with a product, you should also post the reason for the problem.

This post has been edited by JohnnyVegas: 14 January 2006 - 09:50 AM


#9 User is offline   peter 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2383
  • Joined: 13-February 01

Posted 14 January 2006 - 10:21 AM

JohnnyVegas, on Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

Now it they ever came out with a Li Ion that could be used in place of a AA Alkaline, that I might be interested in.

The RCR-V3 type of Lithium ion cell can be used in most devices that are designed for a pair of side-by-side AA alkaline cells. It's a single cell but has about the same size as a pair of AAs and the voltage is dropped from the inherent 3.7V of Li+ chemistry to 3.0 so it's consistent with pairs of normal AAs.

#10 User is offline   JohnnyVegas 

  • Back to school
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 5303
  • Joined: 05-January 03

Posted 14 January 2006 - 10:36 AM

Gee Peter, I am trying to put myself on a budget after all the money I spent in December. Thanks for not posting a link :blink: But I know i am going to goole it :unsure:

#11 User is offline   JohnnyVegas 

  • Back to school
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 5303
  • Joined: 05-January 03

Posted 14 January 2006 - 10:42 AM

All I can say is stupid google

#12 User is offline   Miragee 

  • Wherever you go, there you are.
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 11171
  • Joined: 11-December 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 10:53 AM

Team Cotati, on Jan 14 2006, 09:43 AM, said:

Energizer rechargable 2500's...........you're done. :blink:

Exactly. :unsure:

There is a difference between NiMH batteries, however, if you get the Energizer 2500's, they will last a long time. They last more than 12 hours in my Vista C.

If you use the item frequently and recharge the batteries regularly, they NiMH are the most economical option.

#13 User is offline   forrest39 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: 28-November 05

Posted 14 January 2006 - 11:27 AM

There's a thread that I was just refering to the other day before buying energizer 2500's. The title is Batteries - What Are You Using? originally started 12-16-05 at 02:19PM. You will find it listed by it's last modified date of 12-24-05 at 09:41AM. The thread was started by mattsarcastic.

I found it very useful. Particularly the comparison data at the end of the thread.

HTH - 4ist :P

#14 User is offline   GOT GPS? 

  • GPS carrying member
  • Group: +Charter Members
  • Posts: 2944
  • Joined: 01-July 01

Posted 14 January 2006 - 11:52 AM

The one thing I like about having the NiMH batteries, is also having a car charger, to charge up to 4 batteries while driving, but also I have a home charger too, so I can't go wrong.

I wished I had a hand-cranked charger, to charge a couple 15-minute AA rechargables, then that would be a perfect way to enjoy several days out in nature camping and hiking.

-
Geoff

This post has been edited by GOT GPS?: 14 January 2006 - 12:02 PM


#15 User is offline   HaLiJuSaPa 

  • Premium Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 1453
  • Joined: 02-September 05

  Posted 14 January 2006 - 12:42 PM

Generally I actually like the Lithiums the most, but as NiMH's go I think the Energizer 2500's are just as good.

#16 User is offline   ardfarkle 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: 05-April 03

Posted 14 January 2006 - 04:01 PM

JohnnyVegas, on Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

: I use Alkaline AAs in my meidian gold. I am not impressed will NiMH batteries and I know when I pick up a set of Alkaline batteries they are going to work.


I hope you're not suggesting that NiMH batteries are not reliable compared to alkalines. The need for alkaline batteries would only true if you plan to use your GPS here and there, and have no charged NiMH cells to take with you prior to your trip. Yes, alkalines have a several year 'capacity' shelf life, but modern NiMH batteries have almost as much total MA capacity as the best alkaline cells (~2500 NiMH - ~2800 Alkaline). The advantage NiMH cells have over alkalines is they can deliver almost their entire MA capacity without a significant voltage drop. This actually allows almost all higher drain devices to obtain a longer operation life on NiMH that on alkaline batteries.

IMO, the proper use of alkalines would be for backup. This is where you carry two sets of charged NiMH batteries and one or two sets of alkalines for an emergency. In this scenario the NiMH batteries would be used for normal activity and the alkalines should only be called upon if the NiMH batteries are dead. For most situations, the use of just one set of NiMH cells, or perhaps two on a busy day, would suffice in 99.xx percent of the time for most users. By using NiMH cells over their normal lifespan they would most likely never need to use their 'original' set of alkalines they saved for backup, and yet they would retain ~90% over their original capacity and could serve as backups for the next set of NiMH cells. Compare this to using 1000-2000 sets of alkaline cells while obtaining no more reliability in the field. This is a bad decision IMO, and it's not too good for the environment either.


Quote

In some cases people have bought Li Ion Batteries for cell phones that did not meet the specs of the cell phones, in these cases the sell phone would burst into flame because the battery in use was turn out more amps than the phone could handle.


I'm sorry, but I almost fell on the floor laughing (FOTFL?) when I saw this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this really hit me as funny since I have seen this type of argument before from the standpoint of the power 'source' being too big/strong for the product being operated (the load). This is akin to speakers 'putting out' too many watts for the amp in the stereo forums.

First off, batteries don't 'turn out' more amps than the phone can handle, or what other products can 'handle' for that matter. Products 'draw' a certain amount of current from the power source as a 'load', which is what they are. Based upon the operating voltage and the current required, a source either does, or does not, meet the criteria (no. I'm not going to get into Ohm's law here, but you can ). Consider the following:

A normal U.S power receptacle has a voltage between 110-120VAC and can provide 15A of current. This equates to between 1650-1800 Watts (we're going to stay away from VA figures since it will just complicate the issue). And yet, we can plug in a 2 watt transistor radio, a 50 watt CD player, a 100 watt boom box, a 300 watt television, a 500 watt stereo system, a 900 watt microwave oven, and a 1200 watt toaster, into this outlet with no ill effect. The fact that the outlet can provide 1650-1800 watts, or 15 amps of current at 100-120 volts is not the issue. It's the load presented to it that counts. If I present a load that requires anywhere between 0-15A, I'm OK. It's only after I pass the 15A mark that I get into trouble, and even then it's only controlled since there is a 15A circuit breaker that will trip. Had there been no circuit breaker I would have been allowed to draw in excess of the rated current for the given circuit. This would have resulted in a voltage drop in the given circuit and this is where the problems would have reared their ugly heads.

The simple approach: You can use 600ma, 750ma, 900ma, 1100ma, 1500ma, 1750ma, 2000ma, 2100ma, 2200ma, 2300ma, and 2500ma, NiMH/Ni-Cad/Alkaline/other cells in 'ANY' product you wish without ill effect. Why is this? Why doesn't the use of 2500ma NiMH cells in a product in which 1600ma cells are specified cause a problems. Why do we 'know/understand' that the use of higher capacity cells will do nothing more than yield a longer operation time for the given product we use it in.

Just food for thought...


Quote

If you are going to post a problem with a product, you should also post the reason for the problem.


And by the same token, If you decide to post the answer to a problem, you should make sure your answers are correct, or at least well tested.

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 14 January 2006 - 04:26 PM


#17 User is offline   patester24 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 14
  • Joined: 14-December 05

Posted 14 January 2006 - 04:06 PM

In cold weather, i'd would at least carry an extra set of nimh rechargable batteries to be on the safe side.

#18 User is offline   OttoLund 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 01-June 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 04:56 PM

On oneday hikes I always use 2 AA NiMH batteries in my 60CS and carry 1 set of NiMHs as spares. On hikes that lasts for several days I have 1 set of NiMH spares per day, sometimes also 1 set of alkalines because I bought two 20-packs 2-3 years ago, but I never use them in the GPSr.

Otto :P
http://www.navigate3d.com

This post has been edited by OttoLund: 14 January 2006 - 05:07 PM


#19 User is offline   OttoLund 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 01-June 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 05:06 PM

JohnnyVegas, on Jan 14 2006, 09:47 AM, said:

If you are going to post a problem with a product, you should also post the reason for the problem.

Made a correction in the post: "It's not a practical problem if treated correctly" Thanks!

The battery topic seems to be a hot one, ofcource, it's the power resource for all handheld electronic equipment, but practically it's simple if you always recharge the batteries before use. You have to place charged and uncharged in different locations to know what is what, regardless.

Otto
http://www.navigate3d.com

This post has been edited by OttoLund: 14 January 2006 - 05:51 PM


#20 User is offline   Alan2 

  • "Let's go caching. Woof."
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 4606
  • Joined: 04-October 01

Posted 14 January 2006 - 05:43 PM

ardfarkle, on Jan 14 2006, 07:01 PM, said:

JohnnyVegas, on Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

: I use Alkaline AAs in my meidian gold. I am not impressed will NiMH batteries and I know when I pick up a set of Alkaline batteries they are going to work.


I hope you're not suggesting that NiMH batteries are not reliable compared to alkalines. The need for alkaline batteries would only true if you plan to use your GPS here and there, and have no charged NiMH cells to take with you prior to your trip. Yes, alkalines have a several year 'capacity' shelf life, but modern NiMH batteries have almost as much total MA capacity as the best alkaline cells (~2500 NiMH - ~2800 Alkaline). The advantage NiMH cells have over alkalines is they can deliver almost their entire MA capacity without a significant voltage drop. This actually allows almost all higher drain devices to obtain a longer operation life on NiMH that on alkaline batteries.

IMO, the proper use of alkalines would be for backup. This is where you carry two sets of charged NiMH batteries and one or two sets of alkalines for an emergency. In this scenario the NiMH batteries would be used for normal activity and the alkalines should only be called upon if the NiMH batteries are dead. For most situations, the use of just one set of NiMH cells, or perhaps two on a busy day, would suffice in 99.xx percent of the time for most users. By using NiMH cells over their normal lifespan they would most likely never need to use their 'original' set of alkalines they saved for backup, and yet they would retain ~90% over their original capacity and could serve as backups for the next set of NiMH cells. Compare this to using 1000-2000 sets of alkaline cells while obtaining no more reliability in the field. This is a bad decision IMO, and it's not too good for the environment either.


Quote

In some cases people have bought Li Ion Batteries for cell phones that did not meet the specs of the cell phones, in these cases the sell phone would burst into flame because the battery in use was turn out more amps than the phone could handle.


I'm sorry, but I almost fell on the floor laughing (FOTFL?) when I saw this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this really hit me as funny since I have seen this type of argument before from the standpoint of the power 'source' being too big/strong for the product being operated (the load). This is akin to speakers 'putting out' too many watts for the amp in the stereo forums.

First off, batteries don't 'turn out' more amps than the phone can handle, or what other products can 'handle' for that matter. Products 'draw' a certain amount of current from the power source as a 'load', which is what they are. Based upon the operating voltage and the current required, a source either does, or does not, meet the criteria (no. I'm not going to get into Ohm's law here, but you can ). Consider the following:

A normal U.S power receptacle has a voltage between 110-120VAC and can provide 15A of current. This equates to between 1650-1800 Watts (we're going to stay away from VA figures since it will just complicate the issue). And yet, we can plug in a 2 watt transistor radio, a 50 watt CD player, a 100 watt boom box, a 300 watt television, a 500 watt stereo system, a 900 watt microwave oven, and a 1200 watt toaster, into this outlet with no ill effect. The fact that the outlet can provide 1650-1800 watts, or 15 amps of current at 100-120 volts is not the issue. It's the load presented to it that counts. If I present a load that requires anywhere between 0-15A, I'm OK. It's only after I pass the 15A mark that I get into trouble, and even then it's only controlled since there is a 15A circuit breaker that will trip. Had there been no circuit breaker I would have been allowed to draw in excess of the rated current for the given circuit. This would have resulted in a voltage drop in the given circuit and this is where the problems would have reared their ugly heads.

The simple approach: You can use 600ma, 750ma, 900ma, 1100ma, 1500ma, 1750ma, 2000ma, 2100ma, 2200ma, 2300ma, and 2500ma, NiMH/Ni-Cad/Alkaline/other cells in 'ANY' product you wish without ill effect. Why is this? Why doesn't the use of 2500ma NiMH cells in a product in which 1600ma cells are specified cause a problems. Why do we 'know/understand' that the use of higher capacity cells will do nothing more than yield a longer operation time for the given product we use it in.

Just food for thought...


Quote

If you are going to post a problem with a product, you should also post the reason for the problem.


And by the same token, If you decide to post the answer to a problem, you should make sure your answers are correct, or at least well tested.

Boy you guys really got me nervous. My wife just got an off brand replacement battery for her Verizon cell phone. It is a Li ion at the same amps as the original. Interestingly, the original Verizon battery on the back says :"Please read the users guide before using the battery as it may cause fire, overheating and other hazards." :unsure:

I don't have the guide. What are they talking about? :P

#21 User is offline   OttoLund 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 01-June 04

Posted 14 January 2006 - 06:01 PM

Alan2, on Jan 14 2006, 05:43 PM, said:

Boy you guys really got me nervous.  My wife just got an off brand replacement battery for her Verizon cell phone.  It is a Li ion at the same amps as the original.  Interestingly, the original Verizon battery on the back says :"Please read the users guide before using the battery as it may cause fire, overheating and other hazards." :unsure:

I don't have the guide.  What are they talking about?    :P

Never a practical problem when used as described, f.ex. in your cell phone:
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2005/ac10c3...C3-2005-43e.pdf

Otto

This post has been edited by OttoLund: 14 January 2006 - 06:01 PM


#22 User is offline   Gummi 

  • Premium Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 23-December 05

Posted 15 January 2006 - 04:49 AM

I've given up on NiMH. I used them mostly for my minotla Dimage 7 (a battery eater), the 1600mAh energizers where just alright in the camera while the 2500mAh energizers where just incredible as far as the number of pictures taken.

I bought the 2500's after the 1600's stopped holding a charge, well after not using them for a month or so, they just won't hold a charge anymore. I've tried repeatably recharging them but it's no good. The other complaint about NiMH I have is storage life, after about a week of no use the charge is about half.

Now I just use el-cheapo alkalines anymore for everything! Lithium batteries are nice but for the price I don't mind swapping el-cheapos 1 or 2 times.....

#23 User is offline   OttoLund 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 01-June 04

Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:20 AM

Some facts:
* Minolta Dimage 7 most likely consumes the same power as other similar cameras
* My brother uses AA NiMH batteries in a Canon PowerShot S2 IS and is very pleased with the battery performance
* Your components: Camera, charger, batteries

To start with I want to look at your charger.

Facts:
Some chargers does not perform as good as others. The best way to charge a battery is to use a slow-charger. Mine is a cheap one that charges the batteries for 15 hours. (I've planned to buy a better slow-charger to get maximum performance.)

When you slow-charge the batteries they are kept relatively cool: That extends their lifetime and gives them more capacity each time you charge them. They are probably worn out after 4 years.

Do you have a quick-charger that charges the batteries within ca 1 hour?
What's the charger models name and product number?

Otto
http://www.navigate3d.com

This post has been edited by OttoLund: 15 January 2006 - 05:24 AM


#24 User is offline   JohnnyVegas 

  • Back to school
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 5303
  • Joined: 05-January 03

Posted 15 January 2006 - 08:01 AM

ardfarkle, on Jan 14 2006, 04:01 PM, said:

JohnnyVegas, on Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

: I use Alkaline AAs in my meidian gold. I am not impressed will NiMH batteries and I know when I pick up a set of Alkaline batteries they are going to work.


I hope you're not suggesting that NiMH batteries are not reliable compared to alkalines. The need for alkaline batteries would only true if you plan to use your GPS here and there, and have no charged NiMH cells to take with you prior to your trip. Yes, alkalines have a several year 'capacity' shelf life, but modern NiMH batteries have almost as much total MA capacity as the best alkaline cells (~2500 NiMH - ~2800 Alkaline). The advantage NiMH cells have over alkalines is they can deliver almost their entire MA capacity without a significant voltage drop. This actually allows almost all higher drain devices to obtain a longer operation life on NiMH that on alkaline batteries.

IMO, the proper use of alkalines would be for backup. This is where you carry two sets of charged NiMH batteries and one or two sets of alkalines for an emergency. In this scenario the NiMH batteries would be used for normal activity and the alkalines should only be called upon if the NiMH batteries are dead. For most situations, the use of just one set of NiMH cells, or perhaps two on a busy day, would suffice in 99.xx percent of the time for most users. By using NiMH cells over their normal lifespan they would most likely never need to use their 'original' set of alkalines they saved for backup, and yet they would retain ~90% over their original capacity and could serve as backups for the next set of NiMH cells. Compare this to using 1000-2000 sets of alkaline cells while obtaining no more reliability in the field. This is a bad decision IMO, and it's not too good for the environment either.


Quote

In some cases people have bought Li Ion Batteries for cell phones that did not meet the specs of the cell phones, in these cases the sell phone would burst into flame because the battery in use was turn out more amps than the phone could handle.


I'm sorry, but I almost fell on the floor laughing (FOTFL?) when I saw this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this really hit me as funny since I have seen this type of argument before from the standpoint of the power 'source' being too big/strong for the product being operated (the load). This is akin to speakers 'putting out' too many watts for the amp in the stereo forums.

First off, batteries don't 'turn out' more amps than the phone can handle, or what other products can 'handle' for that matter. Products 'draw' a certain amount of current from the power source as a 'load', which is what they are. Based upon the operating voltage and the current required, a source either does, or does not, meet the criteria (no. I'm not going to get into Ohm's law here, but you can ). Consider the following:

A normal U.S power receptacle has a voltage between 110-120VAC and can provide 15A of current. This equates to between 1650-1800 Watts (we're going to stay away from VA figures since it will just complicate the issue). And yet, we can plug in a 2 watt transistor radio, a 50 watt CD player, a 100 watt boom box, a 300 watt television, a 500 watt stereo system, a 900 watt microwave oven, and a 1200 watt toaster, into this outlet with no ill effect. The fact that the outlet can provide 1650-1800 watts, or 15 amps of current at 100-120 volts is not the issue. It's the load presented to it that counts. If I present a load that requires anywhere between 0-15A, I'm OK. It's only after I pass the 15A mark that I get into trouble, and even then it's only controlled since there is a 15A circuit breaker that will trip. Had there been no circuit breaker I would have been allowed to draw in excess of the rated current for the given circuit. This would have resulted in a voltage drop in the given circuit and this is where the problems would have reared their ugly heads.

The simple approach: You can use 600ma, 750ma, 900ma, 1100ma, 1500ma, 1750ma, 2000ma, 2100ma, 2200ma, 2300ma, and 2500ma, NiMH/Ni-Cad/Alkaline/other cells in 'ANY' product you wish without ill effect. Why is this? Why doesn't the use of 2500ma NiMH cells in a product in which 1600ma cells are specified cause a problems. Why do we 'know/understand' that the use of higher capacity cells will do nothing more than yield a longer operation time for the given product we use it in.

Just food for thought...


Quote

If you are going to post a problem with a product, you should also post the reason for the problem.


And by the same token, If you decide to post the answer to a problem, you should make sure your answers are correct, or at least well tested.



I read the story several years ago I may have been batteries with a higher voltage output that werte causing the problem, but the problem with cell phones bursting into flames have been caused by using batteris that did not meet the specs of the phone.

I did find this story, for some reason my computer is not letting me copy the link, If I can I will post it later.


Quote

The number of phones destroyed by so-called third-party batteries, sold by street vendors or on the Web, have risen enough since December to prompt a warning from Nokia, said company spokesman Keith Nowak.

The batteries usually don't have circuitry to shut down the power source once it begins overheating, Nowak said. Enough heat can be generated to melt a phone's plastic casing and the circuits inside, he said.

"People really shouldn't use anything but a Nokia-made battery inside any of our phones," he said. "If a third-party battery is made improperly and destroys a phones, it's not going to be covered under warranty."

Nokia handset owners in Asia, Africa and Europe have reported problems, Nowak said. There have not been any problems in the United States, he added.

The handset maker did not name specific battery makers to watch out for.

Nokia appears to be acting out of genuine concern, rather than using the warning as a scare tactic to keep customers from buying phone accessories made by other companies, said Joel Tax, an analyst with research firm Santa Clara Consulting Group.

This post has been edited by JohnnyVegas: 15 January 2006 - 08:10 AM


#25 User is offline   embra 

  • Often wrong, never in doubt
  • Group: +Charter Members
  • Posts: 5213
  • Joined: 07-March 02

Posted 15 January 2006 - 08:05 AM

Gummi, on Jan 15 2006, 07:49 AM, said:

I bought the 2500's after the 1600's stopped holding a charge, well after not using them for a month or so, they just won't hold a charge anymore. I've tried repeatably recharging them but it's no good. The other complaint about NiMH I have is storage life, after about a week of no use the charge is about half.

Now I just use el-cheapo alkalines anymore for everything! Lithium batteries are nice but for the price I don't mind swapping el-cheapos 1 or 2 times.....

Those concerned about storage life might want to give some thought about using RAM (rechargeable alkaline manganese) batteries. They don't take as many recharges as NiMH (only up to 100 times or so), but they are supposed to hold a charge for years. No memory effect, but they will require a charger that can deal with them.

Cost savings, while not quite as dramatic as with NiMH, are still substantial. I also appreciate the decreased hit on our landfills. I now use NiMH for my higher-use things (e.g., camera) and RAM for less frequently used things, like flashlights.

This post has been edited by embra: 15 January 2006 - 08:07 AM


#26 User is offline   Airmapper 

  • Premium Mapper
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 2490
  • Joined: 19-August 05

Posted 15 January 2006 - 10:40 AM

I recently got a digital camera, and immediately noticed that plain Duracell's just wouldn't cut it for powering the unit.

Yesterday I got 4 Energizer 2500mAh rechargeable 1.2volt NiMH batteries, and a 7 hour charger. (All for around $20 @ Wal-mart.)

I haven't had the opportunity to use them yet, but I'm fully expecting them to be better than the Duracell's. I'm also planning on getting more batteries if they work well, 4 for my camera, and 4 more for the GPS, that way I can cache all day without running out of juice.

I'm hoping this setup will work well, we'll see. :tired: :blink:

#27 User is offline   Gummi 

  • Premium Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 23-December 05

Posted 15 January 2006 - 11:02 AM

Quote

Some facts:
* Minolta Dimage 7 most likely consumes the same power as other similar cameras
* My brother uses AA NiMH batteries in a Canon PowerShot S2 IS and is very pleased with the battery performance
* Your components: Camera, charger, batteries

To start with I want to look at your charger.


The Minolta Dimage 7 was used as test camera for quality, batteries and battery packs by a number of magazines and websites. You can google "minolta dimage 7 batteries usage" too see some more info. It was one of the first 5MP cameras on the market and is about 6 years old. On alkaline batteries it's a miracle to get 20 pics. The 2500mAh were great (almost 100 pics), but from what I have found out only if you use and charge them regularly.

So far every NiMH brand I've tried all loose there ability to hold a charge when not used for over a month. I've only tried energizer, quest and rayovac rechargeables and have 3 slow charge units, two are different energizer models and one by quest.

I've gone through so many 4 packs of rechargeables I find it better to get a 24 pack of cheapos for 3-5 dollars. If lithiums where the price of energizer or duracel alkalines I'd go with them.

#28 User is offline   kerecsen 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 186
  • Joined: 11-May 04

Posted 15 January 2006 - 03:18 PM

Gummi, on Jan 15 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

So far every NiMH brand I've tried all loose there ability to hold a charge when not used for over a month. I've only tried energizer, quest and rayovac rechargeables and have 3 slow charge units, two are different energizer models and one by quest.

I've gone through so many 4 packs of rechargeables I find it better to get a 24 pack of cheapos for 3-5 dollars. If lithiums where the price of energizer or duracel alkalines I'd go with them.

According to industry data, typical NiMH batteries self-discharge when stored at reasonable temperatures in about 2-3 months. My experience confirms this number.

There are but a few ways to deep-six the rechargeables quickly:
1. use a faulty, poorly designed, or designed-for-NiCd charger. Slow chargers are the safest, even if they don't turn off in time, they will only heat the batteries to lukewarm temperatures. Quick chargers will actually melt the plastic cover of the batteries in case of a charge overrun;
2. if your charger takes 2 at a time or 4 at a time, you must always use and charge the batteries in corresponding sets. Using an old and a new battery on the same charging circuit is bad for both;
3. deep-discharging the battery by leaving it in a device that will constantly consume power even when the battery is "exhausted";
4. leaving the battery uncharged for a long time (3+ months -- less for empty batteries).

I have batteries from various manufacturers that I've been using for several years and occasionally leaving them on the shelf for months. They are all in perfect working order and still hold a reasonable amount of charge. Unless you live in an unusual climate (very, very hot and very wet), I can't explain your findings.

#29 User is offline   Quoddy 

  • Geocaching Buddies
  • Group: +Charter Members
  • Posts: 1065
  • Joined: 24-February 03

Posted 15 January 2006 - 03:34 PM

Has anyone tried using the RCR-V3 Rechargeable Lithium Batteries? I've used Power-x 2300's and Energizer 2500's for a couple of years in my 60CS. If the Lithiums work OK they should be even better since they have about 50% more reserve power and a much better shelf life. I'm looking foro something that little bit better for use in my soon to be received 60CSX

#30 User is offline   MagicTogether 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 54
  • Joined: 21-November 05

Posted 16 January 2006 - 12:21 AM

Proper charging is the key to longevity in any battery. With respect to NiMH batteries you must purchase a quality charger designed specifically for NiMH batteries. High quality chargers will sample each battery inserted and taylor the charge cycle to that battery. As a result, overheating and overcharging will be avoided.

There are several quality chargers on the market. I use a unit manufactured by AccuPower and have been able to continue using my cells for many years. My charger will accept input from AC house circuit, 12V. car circuit or solar panels. Maha also makes a quality charger which has received good reviews. Google for both.

For best reliabilty and least cost I choose NiMh as the primary battery and carry lithium as back-up. Lithium's have the longest storage life and are also the least weight. When the back-up batteries are not being carried, I zip-lock them and store them in the refrigerator. Cold storage significantly extends the storage life of both alkaline and lithium batteries, without ill effects to either. Warm prior to use for best results. I just pull the zip lock out and carry it, closed. If I need the spares they will have warmed sufficiently by the time I need them. Lithium earns their value and is less expensive as a spare than quality alkaline cells due to their long storage life.

#31 User is offline   southernx 

  • Premium Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 09-April 03

Posted 16 January 2006 - 04:46 AM

I've used the Energizer 15min rechargeable 2500ma nimh for quite awhile with no ill effects. Never had a problem with them holding a charge and I recharge some of them daily for a radio I use at work. Also, I believe that all rechargeable batteries lose around 1% of there stored power per day....not positive here just thought I read this somewhere.

#32 User is offline   southernx 

  • Premium Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 09-April 03

Posted 16 January 2006 - 04:50 AM

This isn't the info where I read it in the past but, it supports what I thought I read before. Just googled.......

Quote

New NiMH rechargeable batteries can last from 500 to 1000 charges.  How you care for your rechargable batteries is the key factor in determining the length of their useful life.



When you receive your new NiMH rechargeable batteries or battery pack, you must charge them fully before the first use.  They may show full voltage and power required to operate your device, but charging before you use them the first time is still very important.  Please note that for new NiMH rechargeable batteries, it can take from three to five charge and discharge (use) cycles before they reach their peak performance.  Some battery chargers have a discharge, or conditioning, feature.  We do not recommend conditioning new NiMH rechargeable batteries until after the tenth charge cycle, and it is not necessary even then because you actually condition the rechargeable batteries just by using them.



At normal room temperature, NiMH rechargeable batteries will generally lose about 1% of their charge per day.  Higher temperatures will increase this loss, and lower temperatures (40-60F) will reduce this daily loss.  This “shelf life” is less of a factor if you use them within the first five to ten days after they are charged.



One of the best ways to ensure that your NiMH rechargeable batteries will last as long as possible is to use them often.  The more they are charged and used, the longer NiMH rechargeable batteries will last.  Whether discharged or not, NiMH rechargeable batteries should be charged at least every sixty days.



Just a few more tips:



·        never drop NiMH rechargeable batteries on a hard floor or surface.

·        never carry NiMH batteries loose in your pocket. Coins or other metal objects can cause them to short resulting in severe burns or even a fire or explosion.  The best preventive is to keep batteries in battery holders.

·        do not unplug the charger and then leave the batteries in the charger—remove the batteries first—or they will discharge.

·        be sure to use a well designed Battery charger that will prevent overcharging.  One of the primary causes of premature failure of NiMH batteries is improper or overcharging. 


Thomas Distributing has several great NiMH rechargeable battery chargers available


#33 User is offline   michiganbuck 

  • Tadpole
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 28-December 04

Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:39 AM

This may seem over simple but it may be of some help.
We use a single battery flashlight to test all batteries for our radios used on hunting trips. Some new batteries test poor.
A battery tester will test for voltage, and that is important too, but not for load. A flashlight will put some load on a battery so this can be a usefull test.

#34 User is offline   ardfarkle 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: 05-April 03

Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:47 PM

JohnnyVegas wrote said:


ardfarkle, on Jan 14 2006, 04:01 PM, said:

JohnnyVegas, on Jan 14 2006, 09:32 AM, said:

: I use Alkaline AAs in my meidian gold. I am not impressed will NiMH batteries and I know when I pick up a set of Alkaline batteries they are going to work.


I hope you're not suggesting .....

(deleted)

..... the use of higher capacity cells will do nothing more than yield a longer operation time for the given product we use it in.



I read the story several years ago I may have been batteries with a higher voltage output that werte causing the problem, but the problem with cell phones bursting into flames have been caused by using batteris that did not meet the specs of the phone.

I did find this story, for some reason my computer is not letting me copy the link, If I can I will post it later.



A 'higher voltage' (not available current/capacity) can cause a multitude of problems including the destruction of chips and discrete devices within a given product, however this seems a bit unlikely unless the voltage source is an external power supply/charger, or an external battery pack that relies on a pack voltage that is higher than the operation voltage of the device which is then regulated down to the proper voltage. Any number of failure modes could cause the device to be supplied with a larger voltage that specified with such supplies/chargers/packs. Discrete cells are another issue.

Cell phones draw so little current by comparison to some devices, the only way I could imagine a phone bursting into flames is if the pack itself shorts out. While overheating can be a real issue with Li-Ion packs, it would only be induced by heavy current draw (not from a .6 watt cell phone, color LCD or not IMO), or a short circuit. This short circuit could be anywhere in the power supply chain. A phone defect, a small piece of metallic debris in the battery compartment that shorts out the power terminals, or an internal battery pack short. This is why 'properly designed' Li-Ion battery packs contain protection circuitry to shut them down if an over current situation occurs.

Do off brand Li-Ion packs contain this protection circuitry? Some do, and some don't. If the after market pack is being provided by a brand name accessory company then you can bet such circuitry is in place. Law suits are expensive. What about ebay stuff? This just depends on the vendor. I buy my BP-511/512 batteries for my Canon 10D from Sterling-Tech's ebay store. I have yet to have a problem and get considerably better operation life from them.



Quote

The number of phones destroyed by so-called third-party batteries, sold by street vendors or on the Web, have risen enough since December to prompt a warning from Nokia, said company spokesman Keith Nowak.

The batteries usually don't have circuitry to shut down the power source once it begins overheating, Nowak said. Enough heat can be generated to melt a phone's plastic casing and the circuits inside, he said.

"People really shouldn't use anything but a Nokia-made battery inside any of our phones," he said. "If a third-party battery is made improperly and destroys a phones, it's not going to be covered under warranty."

Nokia handset owners in Asia, Africa and Europe have reported problems, Nowak said. There have not been any problems in the United States, he added.

The handset maker did not name specific battery makers to watch out for.

Nokia appears to be acting out of genuine concern, rather than using the warning as a scare tactic to keep customers from buying phone accessories made by other companies, said Joel Tax, an analyst with research firm Santa Clara Consulting Group.



Hmm... Yes I'm sure Nokia and other manufacturers are concerned about law suits and lost sales, but to state 'The batteries usually don't have circuitry to shut down the power source once it begins overheating...' is a scare tactic IMO. Do they have empirical data to back this up? Did they buy 2-3 dozen batteries from ebay vendors and tear them apart to qualify their statement? I'm not talking about purchasing them from vendors with just a few ebay sales, or those that are selling a $59.00 retail battery pack for $9.95 for two of them. I'm talking about some of the better known power sellers that have a good reputation and feedback ratings. Some of these vendors specifically mention that their packs 'do' contain over current and short circuit protection circuitry.

BTW, NiMH and Ni-Cad cells/packs suffer from the same problem when shorted out, it's not a problem that is exclusive to Li-Ion batteries.

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 16 January 2006 - 02:56 PM


#35 User is offline   peter 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2383
  • Joined: 13-February 01

Posted 16 January 2006 - 03:13 PM

ardfarkle, on Jan 16 2006, 02:47 PM, said:

Yes I'm sure Nokia and other manufacturers are concerned about law suits and lost sales, but to state 'The batteries usually don't have circuitry to shut down the power source once it begins overheating...' is a scare tactic IMO. Do they have empirical data to back this up?

It seems to me the meaning of the statement made by the Nokia representative is somewhat ambiguous. "The batteries" could refer either to the set of all batteries from brands other than Nokia (in which case I share your skepticism), or it could refer only to the batteries that overheated and melted the phones. In the latter case I'd expect his statement about lacking the shutdown protection to be correct.

#36 User is offline   ardfarkle 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: 05-April 03

Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:16 PM

Gummi, on Jan 15 2006, 11:02 AM, said:


So far every NiMH brand I've tried all loose there ability to hold a charge when not used for over a month. I've only tried energizer, quest and rayovac rechargeables and have 3 slow charge units, two are different energizer models and one by quest.

I've gone through so many 4 packs of rechargeables I find it better to get a 24 pack of cheapos for 3-5 dollars. If lithiums where the price of energizer or duracel alkalines I'd go with them.


I have to agree with kerecsen and MagicTogether on this.

A properly designed high quality charger is imperative to obtain long cell life. In addition, cell sets need to be rotated so they are used in service on a regular basis verses just being backup sets. They also need to be kept in sets if your charger charges cells in series (if you need to add 2 or more cells before the charging light goes on, they are being charged in series).

The bottom line is, if you are having problems with high quality NiMH cells, then you either have:

. Defective cells
. Bad quality cells (brand)
. A defective or a badly designed charger/s
. A charger designed for another chemistry such as a Ni-Cad charger
. Are not following proper charging procedures



The rest of this post is not directed to a particular user:

I use MaHA MH-C401FS chargers (5 of them currently). They have independent charging circuits for each cell and utilize the 'Negative Delta V' charging algorithm, although I still keep the cells in sets from the standpoint of brands and purchase date. They also offer a fast and slow charging mode. I have found the fast charging mode of this charger to be the best of any unit I have tried including some of the Lenmar chargers (who also make good chargers).

I also have several Panasonic BQ-390 travel chargers that come in a kit from Costco. It comes with the charger, 6 2300ma NiMH AA cells and 2 ?????ma NiMH AAA cells for well under $20.00. I have found the 2300ma Panasonic cells provided with this kit to be every bit as good as the Sanyo 2500ma cells, which are/were my current favorites (any of you R/C enthusiasts out there know Sanyo cells). While the BQ-390 chargers seem to work well, I only use them when traveling when the MaHa chargers are not available to me, or as charge boosters. BTW, a 'charge booster' is a charger you use to start the initial charge process on a set of cells when the main chargers are busy charging other cells. When the main chargers are done charging their cells, the cells from the 'charge boosters' are then transfered to the main chargers to complete the charging process.

When charging NiMH cells, the last part of the charging process is one of the most critical stages to make sure the cells are fully charged and yet not overcharged. Transferring cells from basic chargers used as 'charge boosters' to chargers with known good final charging procedures half way through the charging process insures the final charging stages are performed correctly, and yet the total charge time in the main chargers is reduced since the cells already contains a partial charge.



As far as battery life for Alkaline -v- NiMH cells are concerned, it depends on the current draw. (All of the following data is based upon published manufacturer specs.)

AA alkaline batteries from the big three are rated at a maximum of ~2800mah. This rating is based upon a 20-30ma constant current draw to a cell voltage of ~.8vdc at which time the cell is considered to be depleted. As the constant current draw increases, the mah rating decreases. At 100ma draw the rating at .8 vdc will be closer to just under 2500mah, and at 250ma it drops to ~1900ma. At 500ma it's only about half at 1400mah. If it looks bad now, it gets worse.

These ratings are based upon an operational voltage of .8vdc. While there are quite a few clocks, radios, and other low draw devices that will 'still' operate at these voltages, most digital electronics are not happy. So how bad is it really? Well, at ~250ma current draw at a voltage rating of 1.1vdc (a ~26% drop from 1.5vdc), the rating is ~400mah. That sucks, but that's how alkaline batteries discharge for the most part.

On the other hand we have NiMH cells. Like most rechargeable cells they give their all and then fall flat on their face. While this will result in far superior performance in high current devices, it makes it very hard to produce accurate battery meters for such devices. This is because, regardless of the current draw, the voltage will remain somewhat the same until the pack is fully depleted. Since most battery meters are mostly voltage centric, this results in a less than accurate reading. This is why 'smart' battery packs were developed.

If we look at most portable GPS units, we see battery life ratings from ~10-30hrs, while 15-20hrs seems to be the most common, let's be overly optimistic and select 20hrs of operation for all conditions. At an operational voltage of 1vdc, this equates to ~100ma draw. This isn't that much, but I have a feeling it goes up dramatically if the backlight is used much of the time. Let's say it increases to 150ma.

OK, so let's equate this to Alkaline and NiMH batteries in such a GPS unit. First we must assume that the NiMH cells were recently charged and have not lost a significant amount of their energy. Freshly charged NiMH cells will be assumed.


Alkaline (2800mah - 100ma discharge rate to 1vdc) - discharge to 1.2vdc:

80 ma - ~20hrs

100ma - ~15hrs

150ma - ~10hrs


NiMH (2300mah - 460ma discharge rate to 1vdc) - discharge to 1.2vdc:

80 ma - ~??hrs

100ma - ~18hrs

150ma - ~12hrs



I have no idea what minimum voltage various GPS units will operate at, but I took a stab at 1.2vdc as being a fair amount since it is a reference marker on the graphs and made computations easier :grin:

So, properly charged NiMH cells seem to offer every bit as much operation time as alkalines. Obviously keep some alkalines for backup is a good idea due to their operational shelf life.

#37 User is offline   peter 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2383
  • Joined: 13-February 01

Posted 16 January 2006 - 08:06 PM

ardfarkle, on Jan 16 2006, 07:16 PM, said:

I have no idea what minimum voltage various GPS units will operate at, but I took a stab at 1.2vdc as being a fair amount since it is a reference marker on the graphs and made computations easier.

My GPS 12 and III+ both shut down at just under 1.0 V/cell. My eMaps work down to about 0.85 V/cell. Haven't tested any others. Note that unlike things like flashlights, my GPS receivers are more like constant power devices where the current draw increases as the voltage drops.

The lower voltage operation makes things look a bit better for alkalines, but with modern NiMH cells up to 2500+ mA-hr I see little need to use anything else except to maybe have a pair of lithiums for longterm backup (but not planning to ever need to use them).

#38 User is offline   trashcann 

  • Charter Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 51
  • Joined: 21-March 02

Posted 16 January 2006 - 08:43 PM

Just as a side note Sanyo is coming out with a rechargeable battery called the Eneloop that will hold 85% of its charge for a year. It is also supposed to be good in cold weather although at this time the AA’s are only 2000mAH. http://www.sanyo.co....11/1101-2e.html
I also saw a press release from Energizer that said they were coming out with a 2650 mAH battery this winter. I have looked for them but they are not in stores yet.

This post has been edited by trashcann: 16 January 2006 - 08:44 PM


#39 User is offline   ardfarkle 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: 05-April 03

Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:01 AM

peter, on Jan 16 2006, 08:06 PM, said:

My GPS 12 and III+ both shut down at just under 1.0 V/cell.  My eMaps work down to about 0.85 V/cell.  Haven't tested any others. Note that unlike things like flashlights, my GPS receivers are more like constant power devices where the current draw increases as the voltage drops.


Actually, this is the case for most electronics. What I didn't account for was, the use of 2 AA type alkaline or rechargables would yield a voltage below the required minimum of 3.3vdc for most modern electronic devices. This would necessitate the use of a DC/DC converter/regulator, which would allow an alkaline cell's energy to be better utilized. Based upon a 1vdc drop off, the figures would be:

Alkaline (2800mah - 100ma discharge rate to 1vdc) - discharge to 1.0vdc:
80 ma - ~25-26hrs
100ma - ~20hrs
150ma - ~12-13hrs


Another item I left out was an alkaline's need for a recovery time after high current draw applications. This recovery time can sometimes yield more of the cell's energy under the proper circumstances. On the other hand, some high current applications may benefit from a NiMH's discharge characteristics.

The original point was that NiMH rechargeable batteries have come a long way and can be used interchangeably with alkaline cells in almost all cases, and they can even yield better results in higher current draw applications.


Quote

The lower voltage operation makes things look a bit better for alkalines, but with modern NiMH cells up to 2500+ mA-hr I see little need to use anything else except to maybe have a pair of lithiums for longterm backup (but not planning to ever need to use them).


I'd agree with this, but might also keep a set or two of alkalines around due to their several decade track record for use in emergency devices.

As if my posts weren't long enough already, here are a few alkaline -v- NiMH voltage charts for a PD70x, which is a high current personal storage device and requires both 5vdc and 3.3vdc regulated rails. It uses 4 AA cells and utilizes a DC to DC converter/regulator. The listed Sandisk CF card was repeatedly copied to the PD70x's hard drive until an error was produced due to battery depletion. It shows how well NiMH batteries perform in high current applications.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Notice how the Panasonic NiMH cells performed slightly better than the alkalines <_<

#40 User is offline   freeday 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 770
  • Joined: 17-May 05

Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:46 AM

What kind of Sandisk CF card and SIZE did you EXACTLY use?

#41 User is offline   ardfarkle 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: 05-April 03

Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:52 AM

trashcann, on Jan 16 2006, 08:43 PM, said:

Just as a side note Sanyo is coming out with a rechargeable battery called the Eneloop that will hold 85% of its charge for a year. It is also supposed to be good in cold weather although at this time the AA’s are only 2000mAH.  http://www.sanyo.co....11/1101-2e.html


Thanks for the link trashcann. I had heard of these cells before, but did not know what they were going to be called.

Notice what they compare them to. Their own HR-3U 2500ma AA cells. These are the cells I use, and if you look at the data, you'll notice yet another property I forgot to mention in my previous posts. These Sanyo cells will hold their charge far longer than NiMH cells using older technology.

Recently I charged about a dozen sets of AA cells (48) for a project I was working on. Two fully charged sets were forgotten for about two weeks when I finally decided to top them off and put them into service. One set was 4 Sanyo HR-3U 2500ma AA cells, and the other set was 4 Panasonic HHR-3SPA 2300ma AA cells. Both had been charged on the same model charger (MH-C401FS) within a few hours of each other. When I topped them off, the Panasonic cells took about 15-20 minutes to reach full charge, but the Sanyo cells indicated a full charge in less than 3 minutes. This included charger calculation overhead. There were also a few other times when I had a few sets of Sanyo HR-3U cells packed in my photo vest for almost a month before I realized they where there. These cells also took but a few minutes to top off (less than 5min). IMO Sanyo's chart showing a 75% charge retention for 6 months for the HR-3U cells is most likely accurate.

NiMH cells have come a long way...

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 17 January 2006 - 04:56 AM


#42 User is offline   ardfarkle 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 59
  • Joined: 05-April 03

Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:54 AM

freeday, on Jan 17 2006, 04:46 AM, said:

What kind of Sandisk CF card and SIZE did you EXACTLY use?

It was a 1GB Sandisk Ultra II CF card. The data set was 855MB consisting of 322 files, some of which were RAW files plus thumbnails, and some of which were jpg.

This post has been edited by ardfarkle: 17 January 2006 - 05:17 AM


#43 User is offline   Gummi 

  • Premium Member
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 23-December 05

Posted 17 January 2006 - 05:43 AM

Quote

According to industry data, typical NiMH batteries self-discharge when stored at reasonable temperatures in about 2-3 months. My experience confirms this number.

There are but a few ways to deep-six the rechargeables quickly:
1. use a faulty, poorly designed, or designed-for-NiCd charger. Slow chargers are the safest, even if they don't turn off in time, they will only heat the batteries to lukewarm temperatures. Quick chargers will actually melt the plastic cover of the batteries in case of a charge overrun;
2. if your charger takes 2 at a time or 4 at a time, you must always use and charge the batteries in corresponding sets. Using an old and a new battery on the same charging circuit is bad for both;
3. deep-discharging the battery by leaving it in a device that will constantly consume power even when the battery is "exhausted";
4. leaving the battery uncharged for a long time (3+ months -- less for empty batteries).

I have batteries from various manufacturers that I've been using for several years and occasionally leaving them on the shelf for months. They are all in perfect working order and still hold a reasonable amount of charge. Unless you live in an unusual climate (very, very hot and very wet), I can't explain your findings.


Well I did say after not using them for a month or so (1-3 months). <_<

The chargers I have are Energizer CHM4FC, CHDC and a quest CH1000. I'm trying a set of 2500mAh energizers in the quest right now, I'll let them sit a few days and see what happens. I know the quest will continue to slow charge while the energizers will shut off after 12-15 hours (I would reset them the next day and the next and the next, but they wouldn't come back). I always buy them in 2 sets of 4 batteries and keep the sets together, never mixing and charging.

Oh...... and I guess you can say it's somewhat hot and humid around here.... I live in florida.

I have thought about going through the pain of warranty replacement, but I'll have to go to the store and write down the energizer warranty info for their rechargeables.

#44 User is offline   Team Dougherty 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: +Premium Members
  • Posts: 83
  • Joined: 21-October 01

Posted 17 January 2006 - 09:56 AM

I bought this Battery Charger a few months ago after reading many, many reviews and tests results about it. I have to say it has lived up to my expectations. It has brought many a battery back to life that my old charger would not charge. The refresh and test features are great. The fact that it can charge from 200ma to 1800ma is fantastic. need 2 batteries for your GPS in an hour turn it up to 1800ma need them in the morning set it to 200ma. I am still using 1800ma batteries. I will recommend this charger to everyone and anyone.


Paul

#45 User is offline   lumpynose 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 48
  • Joined: 05-September 05

Posted 17 January 2006 - 11:25 AM

All this talk about batteries losing their charge by sitting unused got me wondering; how do you check the charge? I have a voltmeter; is that good enough?

#46 User is offline   llkylej 

  • Tadpole
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 09-January 06

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:19 PM

ardfarkle, on Jan 17 2006, 04:01 AM, said:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Notice how the Panasonic NiMH cells performed slightly better than the alkalines :anibad:

The alkaline and nimh graphs have a different scale to them (alkaline y-axis is between 4 and 6.5, while nimh is between 4 and 6) and since, if i am reading the graph correctly, the nimh batteries completely drop below 4 volts after the graph passes ~1800, whereas every single alkaline is still well above 4 volts even up to 2600 for the rayovac.

Not only that, if you compare ranges within the graph, the nimh batteries are only >4 volts for x < ~1450, where on the right, it is less than 4.5 volts. As compared to the rayovac, the same voltage level appears for x < ~1650, and before 550 it is well above 5 volts.

So, I am not entirely sure what these graphs prove, since you can pull both positive and negative results for all of the batteries. It is just hard to read a simple "Notice how the Panasonic NiMH cells performed slightly better than the alkalines" when there really isn't any justification for this in the graphs. Although, I may be reading the graphs wrong..please correct me if I am.

#47 User is offline   llkylej 

  • Tadpole
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 09-January 06

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:20 PM

ardfarkle, on Jan 17 2006, 04:01 AM, said:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Notice how the Panasonic NiMH cells performed slightly better than the alkalines :anibad:

The alkaline and nimh graphs have a different scale to them (alkaline y-axis is between 4 and 6.5, while nimh is between 4 and 6) and since, if i am reading the graph correctly, the nimh batteries completely drop below 4 volts after the graph passes ~1800, whereas every single alkaline is still well above 4 volts even up to 2600 for the rayovac.

Not only that, if you compare ranges within the graph, the nimh batteries are only >4 volts for x < ~1450, where on the right, it is less than 4.5 volts. As compared to the rayovac, the same voltage level appears for x < ~1650, and before 550 it is well above 5 volts.

So, I am not entirely sure what these graphs prove, since you can pull both positive and negative results for all of the batteries. It is just hard to read a simple "Notice how the Panasonic NiMH cells performed slightly better than the alkalines" when there really isn't any justification for this in the graphs. Although, I may be reading the graphs wrong..please correct me if I am.

#48 User is offline   peter 

  • Geocacher
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2383
  • Joined: 13-February 01

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:49 PM

llkylej, on Jan 17 2006, 01:20 PM, said:

So, I am not entirely sure what these graphs prove, since you can pull both positive and negative results for all of the batteries.

I think the main point was that the NiMHs let him make 71 data transfers before dying whereas the alkalines only lasted for 14 - 19 transfers.

#49 User is offline   llkylej 

  • Tadpole
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 09-January 06

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:50 PM

peter, on Jan 17 2006, 01:49 PM, said:

llkylej, on Jan 17 2006, 01:20 PM, said:

So, I am not entirely sure what these graphs prove, since you can pull both positive and negative results for all of the batteries.

I think the main point was that the NiMHs let him make 71 data transfers before dying whereas the alkalines only lasted for 14 - 19 transfers.

thank you, i guess that means the graphs were entirely meaningless, which is where i must have gotten confused.

#50 User is offline   llkylej 

  • Tadpole
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 09-January 06

Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:55 PM

I think I will just sit quiet until I know what I am talking about..

Share this topic:


  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic